Yes we have come up with the finial set of rules for Vintage Speed.  There are a few changes from the orginial rules post in the Speed Times and they are highlighted in blue.  The event will be run by myself and my Dad Tom.  If you have any question you can post them on Speed Talk or e-mail me at swilk@cpinternet.com  We can also help you locate drawings of vintage models.


Vintage speed has been talked about from time to time but nothing ever came about it.  After participating in Vintage Speed in Portugal on our last two trips, my Dad and I have decided to propose a version of vintage speed for the US contests.   We have chosen 1964 as the cut off year for engines and Aircraft.  This date will make more engines, plans and planes available to be used then 1958 which is used in Europe. 

Engine:
Engines produced on and before 1964. 
Modification are allowed provided that they were available and in use up to 1964.
No ABC conversions.  No Schnuerled engines or tuned pipes.
Jet Engine modification that will be allowed is:
Opening of the ports, cowlings, back-up reed valves that we were running, modifying the reed retainer,    
spray-bar & spark plug
Not Allowed
Intake extensions, pressure fuel systems
                         
Fuel: 
Fuel restricted to 35% Nitro Max, with fuel ingredients limited by what is current allowed by AMA.  (Nitro-methane, Methanol, Oil, Propylene Oxide) Each contestant is responsible of their own fuel.
Keeping in mind we are running vintage engine and we should use nitro conservatively so that we don’t damage engines.

Aircraft: 
Kits or plans from 1964 or earlier.  (See List)
Building construction should be similar to those used in that era. Models need to be constructed in a manor like those suggested in the AMA Rule Book. Models need to follow the guide lines that the current AMA Speed models do with regard to safety.  2-3 bolts passing through the wing to the Pan (even if a wooden pan is used). Some old models used one bike spoke to hold the Top (where the control system is attached) to the engine/pan. That will not work! Modern composite material will be allowed for re-enforcing of model construction. 

General Rules & Safety Rule will be the same as Current AMA Rules 

Classes:               
Class 1/2A     .000-.050 cu in      
Class A         .051-.1525 cu in      
Class B         .1526-.300 cu in      
Class C         .301-.650 cu in      
Proto B         .1526-.300 cu in      
Class Jet               

Lines construction and pull test per current AMA Rules               
Classes:               Mono Line        Duel Lines           Timed Laps   
Class 1/2A    .014 X 42’   .012 X 42’    5 laps
Class A       .022 X 52’ 6    .018 X 52’ 6”    8 laps
Class B       .026 X 60’    .020 X 60’    7 laps
Class C       .031 X 70’    .026 X 70’    6 laps
Proto B       .024 X 60’    .016 X 60’    14 laps timed from take off
Class Jet       .033 X 70’    .026 X 70’    6 laps

Control handles per current AMA rule

Proto Speed 
All control line speed regulations shall be applicable except for the additions and modifications below.
Proto speed model airplanes need not be scale models.  However, the design should resemble that of a full scale airplane.  The model must have a full fuselage and rudder or butterfly tail.  (A model with a small fuselage and helmet cowl, as is now common with most speed models, will not be acceptable.)  Model must have a cockpit or cabin in proportion to the total model.  No pod and boom fuselages, flush or prone position cockpits or flying wing designs will be acceptable unless they are actual scale models of original full scale aircraft.  The engine must be completely cowled except in cases of a scale model.  If the builder wishes, the spark plug and head fins may be exposed. 
Minimum wing span shall be 24 inches (16 inches for biplane)
Minimum wing area of 125 square inches.  Wing area enclosed in a fuselage shall be considered. 
The landing gear may be either fixed or retractable.  Wheels must lower for all landings if they are of the retractable type.  The model must be colorfully painted and must have AMA license numbers permanently affixed to the upper right-handed wing surface. Models shall take off from the ground or runway under their own power.

Jet  Speed
All Class Jet control line speed regulations shall be applicable except for the additions and modifications below.
A control line jet speed model is a model airplane with the forward motion of which is obtained entirely from the reaction caused by the exhaust gasses of its internal combustion engine.  Its flight is controlled by steel line(s), or metal line(s) of equivalent strength, attached to the model in such a manner as to afford manipulation of control surface(s), thereby enabling up and down movement of the model during flight.  Model designs are restricted to designs up to 1964.  No model shall have a flying weight of more four pounds.  There are size and strength requirements for the control lines. 

ENGINE REQUIREMENTS. 
Engine Designs are restrictions to those modifications used us up to and including 1964. 
Jet Engine modification that will be allowed is:
Opening of the ports, cowlings, back-up reed valves that we were running, modifying the reed retainer,    
spray-bar & spark plug
Not Allowed
Intake extensions, pressure fuel systems
The total internal cross-sectional area of the tail pipe(s) at the point of minimum cross-section shall not be greater than 1.25 square inches.  Afterburners are not permitted, but augmenter tubes and / or other ducting devices not making use of any combustion may be used.  Jet fuel will be the standard 80/20 mix that we are currently using for AMA Jet & Sport Jet           

Handi Cap Scoring 
Vintage speed will be flown as percent of record with trophies for 1st, 2nd & 3rd.  Since this is a new/old event, the established speeds records will be the best speeds in each event up to 1964. If and when a speed exceeds the vintage speed, that will become the new speed to beat.
A separate trophy will be awarded to the Best Ignition Entry and
Jet Entry.                  
                     Open      Senior      Junior   
1/2A Speed     107.61      103.29      96.60
A Speed         154.58      148.33      139.16   
B Speed         161.23      157.69      149.07
C Speed         174.52      171.85      156.46
B Proto          135.49      130.86      121.00   
Jet                177.27      158.53      149.19

We are Bringing a Magna with a Dooling 29

Hi Ralph

Yes that is the Dooling Dad bought for you.  This may not sit well with some collectors but, Dad and I want to fly our old engines and we will get more enjoyment from running and flying them then looking at them on the shelf.  For us Flying is a family event.  We have 3 generation flying right now and this is a hobby that we all enjoy.  My wife Becky has her AMA license also flies.  Take as look around there are several families flying.  Van Sant's, Wisniewski's and Browns to name a few.

Steve Tom & Ashley

Hi Jim

Yes I have thought about that also.  What we could do is have a 1958 A Speed (.19) Class.  The plane and engine range would be up to 1958.  That was the last year A was .19.  The record up to that time was 154.58 mph by Bill Wisniewski.  We can have Joe Brownlee calculate line diameter for that class, to meet current AMA safety guidelines.  We can do the same for C Speed (.49).  I'm not sure when the last year was for the .49's?

Steve

Tom and Steve,
Great idea and thanks for your effort. Wish I could participate.
Does anyone know when 1/2A Proto (not Profile Proto) started and ended?
Chris...

Here is an email exchange with Dave Cotton

Steve,

Thanks for your efforts with these events.  It should be quite
interesting at the Nat's.

With respect to jet speed (my favorite subject, of course), I would like
to point out a couple of items.  In the late 50's and early 60's Jerry
Thomas, Harry Latshaw and I were all running extended heads at
contests.  Sometimes they worked, sometimes they were dogs.  Also,
nearly everyone had the fuel tank at the front of the fuselage.  These
tanks were carved out of the wood and sealed with either Ambroid glue or
epoxy resin.  Our current fuels with propelene oxide will dissolve both
Ambroid glue and epoxy resins.  Latshaw built one airplane with a metal
tank on the front and flew it at the KOI one year.  It was so nose heavy
it only got one foot off the ground with full up.  He trashed it when he
got back to Illinois.  There might be some early jets with metal tanks
but I don't know of any.  To use the current prop oxide fuel some
serious mods will be needed on vintage jets.

As a side note, if Ashley is interested in sport jet I can bring my
extra one to contests and if you are there she can try it out and see
what she thinks.

Cheers,

Dave Cotton

 

Hi Dave
 
I talked will Bill Pardue a lot about the Vintage Jet before we posted any of the rules.  I asked a lot of question so I could get a feel of the Vintage Jet scene.
 
The forward tanks capacity will be a Issue with the use of 80/20 fuel.  I would not be opposed if the modeler expanded the body to increase tank capacity or move the tank back some, as long as you maintain the outlines of the body, must keep those long noses.  One of the plans not on the original list but after some research that would be legal is the Sidewinder.  It wasn't published until February 1971, but Hoyt did fly the design at the 1961 Nat's, this would make it legal.  This might make Vintage Jet a one plane event, I hope not. I've attached the article.
 
Bill did mention there was some experimentation with extended heads but with little success.  So we decided to go with stock heads for now  Under Engine in the rules, it is stated the "Modification are allowed provided that they were available and in use up to 1964"
We did not want fliers to show up with heads from current fast jet engine on old pipes.  With everyone using the basic stock head, we level the playing field. Since no one published what modification in respect to an extended heads they made in 1965 or prior it will impossible to judge what is legal and what is not. 
 
        Engine:
        Engines produced on and before 1964.
        Modification are allowed provided that they were available and in use up to 1964.
        No ABC conversions. No Schnuerled engines or tuned pipes.
        Jet Engine modification that will be allowed is:
        Opening of the ports, cowlings, back-up reed valves that we were running, modifying the reed retainer,
        spray-bar & spark plug       
        Not Allowed
        Intake extensions, pressure fuel systems
 
Ashley is really excited for this coming flying season.  We were out last week and flew some combat planes in the snow.  She did her first loop and I want her to learn how to fly combat that it will help her in her overall flying.  She has been asking about sport jet and she would be excited to give it a try.
 
Dave let me know what you think about Vintage Jet.  We want all the input we can get to make this a  success.
 
Steve, Tom & Ashley 

 

Steve,

Thanks for the refresher.  The article tells me that the Hoyt sidewinder
did have a metal tank.  I think I was at the '61 Nat's, but I'm not
sure.  That was the year I transferred to Evreux AB, France and
marriage, family followed and I was pretty much out of the hobby when we
returned stateside.  I think my last competition was the European
Championships at Genk, Belgium in 1963.  The Hoyt sidewinder is probably
the only vintage jet of that era that had a metal tank.  Billy Hughes
recently sent me some photos of Hoyt airplanes he got from a Hoyt
relative who had some questions about them.  The fuselages looked as if
they had metal tanks (including the uprights) and now I'm sure they did.

I think I could make a metal tank for the Firedart.  It would have to
extend further back into the fuselage and would be a soldering nightmare
to insure engine mount strength.  But, maybe not.  We need about 4
ounces of fuel, even with a "hopped up" engine.  My sport jet tanks are
one 4" x 10" sheet of hobby tin.  This is just a little over 4 ounces
and I get 16 laps on each flight at 142-143 mph.  I could put one of
these tanks in a Firedart with a pear shaped fuselage instead of the
designed oval.

Another thing is monoline.  This could be a problem.  In those days it
was the Stanzel units and nothing else.  I would not trust one of those
units in a current airplane.  I still have a few, but I doubt many folks
do.  Also, they do not meet present AMA safety criteria.  The button is
to small.  Our current torque units for jet use an external pushrod. 
Everything was enclosed in the wing and the fuselage in "old" days. 
Mods will, perhaps, be necessary.

Tank and monoline are the two major problems (in my opinion) to
overcome.  I have a sidewinder sport jet and a new "radical" fast jet to
build and then I'll tackle this problem.  I think we can make it work
with a little tweaking.

Just a little head scratching technical stuff now.

Hoyt's article says the rudder is necessary on the dolly to keep the
airplane (sidewinder) from coming in at you.  Very true.  For some
really strange reason, there has to be a scientific explanation, but I
don't know what it is.....the jet engine, when mounted and running,
wants to push down on the front mount.  That is why upright jets have to
be flown with up control and are squirrelly sensitive when flying.  The
sidewinder  mounted engine pushes down on the front mount  which means
it pushes inward and therefore the necessity for the rudder on takeoff
to counteract the reaction.

I think that's enough pratter for now.  I'm planning to be at St. Louis
so I'll see you there.  I'll chat with you later.

Cheers,

Dave

Quote from: Steve Wilk on February 23, 2007, 07:25:37 PM

Hi Jim

Yes I have thought about that also.  What we could do is have a 1958 A Speed (.19) Class.  The plane and engine range would be up to 1958.  That was the last year A was .19.  The record up to that time was 154.58 mph by Bill Wisniewski.  We can have Joe Brownlee calculate line diameter for that class, to meet current AMA safety guidelines.  We can do the same for C Speed (.49).  I'm not sure when the last year was for the .49's?

Steve

Steve,

It looks like the 1958 and 1964 A records were the same so I'd say just fly as one class but the earlier .19 ships would use one diameter lines and the .15 ships another if there would be a difference.

I just checked and it seems that the last year for .49 class C was 1952.  I don't know what the record was.  The .49's should definitely have a separate class but end with 1952 models.  Wish I had a McCoy .49.

I do have the Mac .60 that set the FAI World Record back then.  I probably shouldn't use it though as it is probably valuable to some people as a collector item.

Jim Rhoades