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Author Topic: Test for Tetra ??  (Read 1165 times)

Offline Paul Smith

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Test for Tetra ??
« on: May 13, 2008, 10:57:41 AM »
The record application still has a line asking about testing the fuel for tetranitromethane.

Is that still actually done?  If so, how?  If not, are records approved anyway?  In addition to speed, this "rule" seems to apply to all control line.

"Tetra" was a mythical German rocket fuel that (according to legend) somebody used to break all the speed records, then got it banned.  All this was supposedly in the 1950's, way before my time.  But still, the "tetra test" is on the record form. 

Does anybody have any direct knowledge that this stuff still exists, or ever did?

If not, maybe it's time to stop testing for it.
Paul Smith

Offline don Burke

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Re: Test for Tetra ??
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2008, 09:53:26 PM »
It definitely exists or existed, it'a a rocket fuel.  It was used successly by several noted speed flyers in the 60s.  Incidentally I heard of some bad stories about accidents, cars burned up when transporting the stuff and such.  It was added to the fuel immediately before flying.  The engines needed to be "flushed" with normal fuel immediatley after flying since the stuff is very corrosive.  It was also very hard on engines, maybe a new piston every flight for instance.
don Burke AMA 843
Menifee, CA

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Test for Tetra ??
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2008, 12:13:29 PM »
That's the legend I heard, too.  Although I've never witnessed the facts myself.

The questions are?

How do you test for it?

When records are set in Control Line events, are tests actually performed?

As a Contest Director, it's possible that somebody might set a record at one of my events.  Then I supposed to "test for tetra". Well, how do I do that?

It's getting hard enough to buy regular nitro, let alone Nazi rocket fuel. 
Paul Smith

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Test for Tetra ??
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2008, 01:09:24 PM »
http://www.roguesci.org/chemlab/energetics/tetranitromethane.html

According to this web site, it isn't all that tough to make.

Just follow the cook book.

It was used by the National Socialist regeme as a diesel fuel booser and as a fuel for the V-2 rocket.

According to the OSHA site, it can best be detected by the litter of bodies on the ground.   Which is to say:  There isn't much chance of it being sneeked into a contest.
Paul Smith

Offline Sonny Williams

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Re: Test for Tetra ??
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2008, 01:47:41 PM »
Paul, "Tetra" as it was commonly known was a sure enough product and was used in a number of record flights in recriprocal engines in the late 60s and early 70's.  I have heard of a couple unusual sources, but I believe the most common source was Eastman Kodak Corporation which I'm sure no longer use the stuff. Was and is a bit dangerous. I know several speed flyers who used it, but the most recognizable one was Wisniewski at one point in time. Rubber gloves was manditory as well as a supply of engines. I don't know why you would be concerned about anyone using it at one of your contests inasmuch as all fuel is supplied by the contest director and Sig makes it as a standart 10%. If you are still concerned about someone using it just look for someone with a mask on and black rubber gloves. You may have a candidate.

Offline rustler

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Re: Test for Tetra ??
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2008, 02:32:30 PM »
Wiz did use it, at a world champs. He had a few collapsed piston crowns. The pen bladder was enclosed in a balloon, just in case the bladder burst. Breathing in led to internal bleeding of the lungs.
Ian Russell.
[I can remember the schedule o.k., the problem is remembering what was the last manoeuvre I just flew!].

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Test for Tetra ??
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2008, 06:22:26 PM »
I'm not the least bit concerned that anybody might actually use stuff.

I'm just trying to find out how the comply with the (outdated) requirement that the CD run a tetra test if somebody sets a record.

From the response thus far, it seems like nobody else tests for it anymore, so I won't worry about it either.

--------------------------------------------

At contests in the early 60's some of the top gun speed flyers from Ohio used to keep their fuel in coolers with ice.  They said the engines ran better on cold fuel.  Maybe that was evidence of tetra. 
Paul Smith

Offline Double Deuce

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Re: Test for Tetra ??
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2008, 01:26:07 PM »
Never worried about signing off on the tetra check IF: Brass needle hardware is used, or, the contestant is using an ABC engine, and he will let me have the engine after the flight with no flushing etc. Tetra will hurt brass real good. In the old days, stainless needle hardware was in order. Don't think anyone died from using it but a few folks did spend some hospital time because of the fumes.

Glad to see someone is interesting in complying with the rules as written. This does not seem to be the norm anymore concerning the requirements of the record application form in regards to rounding of watch times. A review of the listed records and some figuring will show that some of these speeds cannot be turned if the watches are not rounded to the nearest hundredth. Sad to say, the contest board has approved these records?

Seems to be a problem here.

Double Deuce

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Test for Tetra ??
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2008, 07:04:58 AM »
As a Contest Director, I downloaded some new forms, just in case somebody sets a record.

The new form has a line about "tetra testing", and it doesn't just apply to speed, but all CL records. 
I just needed some input about current acceptable methods.

I had a hunch it had something to do with attacking  brass, I just needed some backup.

Thanks.
Paul Smith

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Test for Tetra ??
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2008, 08:38:25 AM »
If the stuff is so dangerous, why worry?  Just look for bodies laying on the ground after the person who set the record is trying to fill out the form.  Later,  DOC Holliday
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline don Burke

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Re: Test for Tetra ??
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2008, 10:14:04 AM »
Anyone would probably play h**l (and have a visit from the Feds) trying to get any of that stuff these days anyhoo!
don Burke AMA 843
Menifee, CA

Offline Peter Mazur

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Re: Test for Tetra ??
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2008, 03:06:55 PM »
Many years ago I was told (perhaps by Frank Garzon, if memory serves) that putting the fuel used or even the residue  from the engine or airplane just after the flight in contact with copper would cause the coppor to corrode quickly to a green shade. So I've always done that as a test for tetra for record form purposes. I agree that it might not be likely to discover any tetra (I never have) since the stuff is not likely to be used, but all it does is get a penny greasy, so there's not much harm.
Pete

Offline Greg McCoy

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Re: Test for Tetra ??
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2008, 07:15:38 AM »
AMA 77370

Offline Marvin Denny

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Re: Test for Tetra ??
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2008, 03:41:04 PM »
  The ban on usage of tetra nitromethane is STILL a requiremint, so listed in the AMA Competition Regulations for 2007 and 2008  General section  page 16, paragraph 7.
 Back when the ban was initially instated, the test involved placing a few drops of the fuel to be tested on a flat sheet of brass,  waiting a specified amount time, and observing the brass for discoloration (turning a darkish brown).  I do not remember the amount of time  nor  when and how to obtain the specimen of fuel.  I only remember that it only required a few drops and not many minutes.
  I suggest you get the page(s) and paragraph(s) of the rule book, and application for record and get on the phone to the  competition rules section of AMA  and pose the questions--- is it still required?  when is the sample of fuel to be taken?  Before or after the flight and is it required for BOTH the record and backup (if required)  and last a detailed instruction as to HOW the test is to be performed.

  Bet you don't get a rational answer.

  Bigiron
marvin Denny  AMA  499

Offline Joey Mathison 9806

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Re: Test for Tetra ??
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2008, 09:13:43 PM »
contest fuel is supplied by nass, that way everyone is running the same brew.
200 mph man ama#9806 joey mathison

Offline Marvin Denny

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Re: Test for Tetra ??
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2008, 04:32:26 PM »
contest fuel is supplied by nass, that way everyone is running the same brew.

  Joey is ALL fuel mix provided for ALL speed contests ??  Even local contests ?  Or is it supposed to be supplied by the "comtest management?  I was looking for something like that, but could not find it for anything but Proto speed.

  Bigiron  ---- used up all the 4-40 helicoils yet?
marvin Denny  AMA  499

Offline Joey Mathison 9806

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Re: Test for Tetra ??
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2008, 07:00:37 PM »
all speed contest in the good ol U Sof A has the chance to get fuel from nass. the cd must contact Dave Mark in advance. i believe sig is the suplier.  10% nitro 20%oil for ama events, fai is the standard old 80/20 and most get there jet fuel from red max not suplied by nass. oh bye the way there was 15 sport jets at the nats this year 
200 mph man ama#9806 joey mathison


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