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Author Topic: Electric Speed Rules  (Read 1143 times)

Offline Mike Palko

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Electric Speed Rules
« on: January 17, 2007, 09:46:10 PM »
If anyone is interested here are the 2007 electric A speed and B speed rules. I posted them in the electric forum also, but you might miss them because they are buried in a thread.

3. Control Line.
3.1. General Specifications. The use of gear boxes and multiple motors
is permitted. Folding props are not permitted. No electrical power may
be transmitted through the control lines. The use of radio control is
not permitted. All applicable sections of Control Line General and
Control Line Speed shall govern model and line construction and the
timing of flights. There shall be no loading requirements for Electric
Speed models.
3.2. Class A Control Line Speed
For event 606.
Any motor(s) allowed but the battery pack is limited to a maximum of 8.4
volts nominal of any battery type.
The model must successfully pass a 25G pull test prior to flight.
The flight speed will be calculated based on the ten (10) laps of the
circuit following three complete laps in the pylon.
Two (2) control lines, solid steel, shall be used and they shall be 42
feet long. Multistrand lines are not permitted. The minimum diameter of
each line shall be .012 inches.
The CD will determine whether hand launches are permitted.
3.3. Class B Control Line Speed
For event 607.
Any motor(s) allowed with the battery pack limited to a maximum of 42
volts nominal of any battery type.
The model must successfully pass a 25G pull test prior to flight.
The pair of solid steel control lines must be at least .018 inches in
diameter and not shorter than 60 feet in length. Multistrand lines are
not permitted. Maximum weight shall be 60 oz.
Flight speed will be calculated based on seven (7) laps of the circuit
following three (3) complete laps in the pylon.
The CD will determine whether hand launches are permitted.




Offline dynasoar1948

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Re: Electric Speed Rules
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2007, 11:54:23 AM »
Mike,

Again, the AMA site, which claims to present present rules, still shows NiCad only for the  electric CL Speed classes.  I am right at the "assemble the battery pack" phase of building my new B Speed ship and guess I'll have to call AMA and try to find someone to clarify the situation.

As background, my present setup uses 18 1100Ma SCR cells to drive an Aveox 1415/2Y BDC motor thru an early commutation module, which has proven to be the weak link in the system.  The flight prop is a wood 8/8 Tornado copy and turns about 20500 RPM early in the flight. (This prop would wipe out the FETs in the commutation module unless unloaded in flight, as I learned to my cost.)  The weight comes in at 59.5 Oz, and 8-inches of prop diameter are necessary to match aircraft drag and provide for reasonable acceleration on the dolly. 8-inch pitch is a perfect match to motor loading.  I don't have my notes within reach, so estimate that, using a cut-down prop for static testing, this RPM draws about 86 Amp.  Early laps are about 125MPH, with the 7-lap AMA record 119.63 MPH.

The switch to other than NiCads (I have to buy new cells anyway, for a competition battery, since the NiCads I'm now working with are the best of my old ones, to make a battery for flight testing and early contests)

I'm open to suggestions re new cell types for this application, to duplicate an unpushed 18 cell NiCad battery (I time it out after 36 seconds) to use the same commutation module or alternativly, with a new module, the maximum that can be packed into a 30-32 Oz battery.

Will Stewart

William Stewart

Offline Mike Palko

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Re: Electric Speed Rules
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2007, 12:22:04 PM »
Will, Here is my response from the electric forum.

   Since I'm toying with the idea of building a speed ship, I contacted the AMA about any future rule changes so I don't build an obsolete airplane/power system. Steve Kaluf replied with the following rules for 2007. He said the AMA web site should be updated by the 18th or 19th of January, but I guess they are a little behind.
 

   If you want some suggestions on batteries I would be glad to help. NiCd's are ancient technology in the R/C world. NiMH cells are still pretty hot and new cells are being developed about every 6months. For the best performance (see most expensive) you can use Li-Poly cells.

   For me it's a toss up between NiMH cells and Li-Poly cells. I haven't flown enough speed events to know what saving a few ounces will do for performance. Also, the fact that I would only fly the airplane a few times a year makes me want to stick with NiMH cells. At least for now......

   Thanks for the info on your power system. BTW did you get my PM?

Offline dynasoar1948

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Re: Electric Speed Rules
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2007, 11:15:08 PM »
Hi Mike,

Read your PM and will look thru my files for photos or sketches that may be helpful.

About cell type:  Looked briefly at LiPo, LiIon and LiManganese, and was deterred by price and need to obtain a new charger.

The remaining unknown tonight is whether NiMh offers any advantage over old fashioned NiCd in my nearly completed new ship. Since I'm limited to the existing old style Aveox commutation module, and would be out of business if I smoked it, I'm proceeding with caution. (If anyone has a source for early Aveox modules, please let me know.) Since I don't dare increase voltage, the battery characteristics I'd like to get are decreased weight and/or less voltage dropoff during the 30 sec run.

I believe that my new ship should handle and groove far better than my now retired high pitching moment "Flying Pencil".  Am looking for about 130MPH, which would mandate an increase in line diameter to 0.020-inch.
William Stewart

Offline Mike Palko

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Re: Electric Speed Rules
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2007, 10:38:41 PM »
Hey Will,
   I think you will see a performance increase by switching to NiMH cells, especially if your cells are getting old. NiMH cells will also offer a few other advantages like little to no memory, slightly higher energy density and the fact that they are still available...... I don't think 1000mah SCR NiCds are made anymore?

   To give you an idea of what is available in your weight range I will list a few.

1) GP2200 2200mah 1.62oz and measure 1.32" long x .89" dia.

2) GP2000AFHR 2000mah 1.23oz and measure 1.68" long x .66" dia

3) Elite1500A 1500mah .81oz and measure 1.13" long x .66" dia.

   I also listed them in order of performance. As a rule of thumb the larger the cell the higher the voltage will be under load. I couldn't find any specs on the 1100SCR cells so I couldn't directly compare them to the NiMH cells I listed. I would imagine the 1100mah cells you are using now, must be taking a beating (80C discharge). The voltage drop under load must be pretty high. How many cycles do you have on them? How do you feel the performance is compared to when new? 

   You can always go with what you have (batteries) and upgrade later if you are not satisfied with the changes you already made.

   

Offline dynasoar1948

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Re: Electric Speed Rules
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2007, 01:31:27 PM »
Mike,

I have some photos of the present B Electric record holder, but don't see any simple way to attach them to this message.

There is a file folder which I can't locate at present, which has data on static RPM, Volts and Amps as functions of time.  Fragmentary notes in another file indicate at about 10 seconds into a run with a prop simulating flight conditions, Volts were about 0.87/cell at 78 Amp; 15.75 V into the motor.

The cells were actually Sanyo N-1000SCR.  Voltage under load into the motor is about the maximum that I dare use.  This cell, which has the same dimensions as the GP2200, weighs 1.32 oz, so 18 of the latter would take me 5.4 0z over the weight limit.

The next possibility would be  the GP2000AFHR 2000mah.  This would configure into a battery which would fit into the new ship and would permit a 19th cell if necessary.  If the Elite 1500A would perform on a par with my present N-1000SCR, this would save me 9 oz.

Can you direct me to a source of information and price?  I guess the key characteristics are internal resistance and maximum safe current.

Thanks,  Will

William Stewart

Offline Mike Palko

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Re: Electric Speed Rules
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2007, 05:18:55 PM »
   This vendor will probably be your best bet http://www.cheapbatterypacks.com/main.asp?sid=689986&pgid=loosecells. They have always had great service. I would give the Elite1500A's a shot.

   When you start talking about 60-80+ amps there really isn't any NiCd or NiMH cell on the market that will handle the current. People have honestly pushed NiMH cells of the 2600mah capacity or more to current levels of 100-200amps. At those levels they try to limit the run time to 60 seconds. It's no longer a matter of what cell will handle the current, it's what cell will survive the longest.

   I know you are working with what you have, but in the future use a lower Kv motor with more cells (smaller lighter cells) to keep the power output the same and weight the same, but the amp draw more reasonable. The only advantage to this is battery life.

   At a recent world championship pylon event the setups ranged from 7cells @200amps to 18cells@40amps. Personal preference I guess. 

   
 

Online John Rist

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Re: Electric Speed Rules
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2007, 12:22:28 PM »
I have not flown electric speed but I did RC boat electric speed work ten years or so ago.  I found that the limiting factor for current was cell resistance.  The nicads we used back then would put out around 100 amps dead short.  At this level they got very hot and melted off the shrink wrap.  the old E=IR rule says that the cells, back then had .0125 ohms of resistance. (1.25v / 100 A).  So the max current is a function of cell resistance.  A cell that will supply 200 amps without exploding would be a really neat thing to see.  My record setting (42 mph) 8 cell boat pulled around 40 amps.  With this setup I dropping about 1/2 the voltage across the batteries and 1/2 across the speed controller/motor.  At the end of 45 second run everything was very hot and smelled really bad and the batteries were cooking off their covering.  Anyway the point of all this is that I have not looked at battery specifications in a long time but I think the most important specification would be the cell's internal resistance. f~
John Rist
AMA 56277

Offline Mike Palko

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Re: Electric Speed Rules
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2007, 08:51:33 AM »
John,
   Your right on about cell resistance. The NiMH cells took over the NiCd market like wildfire. NiMH cells are still some of the best for todays high amperage events. It was only in the past 6months or so that Li-poly batteries have had the capability of handling the current.

   If 100-200amps isn't enough check out Castle Creations new 300A ESC.  :o It will handle 20 round cells or 6S Li-Po @ 180amps constant or 300amps for short bursts!!!!!! Thats roughly 5000watts underload. 6.5HP in any speed ship would fun don't you think?  ;D


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