Author Topic: Brodak Fox 35 speed (Read 24135 times)

bob whitney · « **on:** January 04, 2016, 08:41:54 AM »

anyone getting a Fox 35 speed ready for Brodaks. hope to test fly mine at the KOI in 2 weeks

C.T. Schaefer · « **Reply #1 on:** January 04, 2016, 06:41:02 PM »

Bob, Al and I are both working on Fox planes and are targeting Brodak. Also trying to get Vigani interested. He builds nice planes. We are also going to sponsor a 'Speed' meet at Middlesex before Brodak. Fox .35, Perky and some sort of record ratio event. Haven't figured that out yet. More details on that when finalized. TS

Ken Burdick · « **Reply #2 on:** January 10, 2016, 01:00:02 PM »

What is the record for the fox event?

Fred Cronenwett · « **Reply #3 on:** January 10, 2016, 05:46:51 PM »

Bill Hughes flew at 96.04 Mph here in St Louis, John Moll was right behind at 95.14 mph

the link below has the results from our Fox 35 speed this past Oct

https://lafayetteesquadrillecl.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/contest-report-old-tyme-2015.pdf

these are the results from our Spring Speed contest, Bill only got to 87 mph in May

https://lafayetteesquadrillecl.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/fox-35-speed.jpg

John and Bill are trying to break 100 mph in Fox 35 speed

Fred

Richard Imhoff · « **Reply #4 on:** January 13, 2016, 09:54:26 AM »

here is the one I built for Brodak, needs testing come spring.
Motor might cause some discusion as it has a black head crank and a 75 series K&B piston and liner but it is a Fox 35 stunt case and is plain bearing.

I did one of these motors back in the late 70's and on a Ringmaster it did a bit over 92 MPH so hoping to bust the century mark. Might build another one for sammi to fly.

Fred Cronenwett · « **Reply #5 on:** January 13, 2016, 10:27:36 AM »

Great looking model....!

Fred

Bob Heywood · « **Reply #6 on:** January 13, 2016, 06:00:48 PM »

Henry Nelson showed up at last years (2015) Cold Cash Speed Bash at Dayton, OH and turned 101.33 in Fox 35 Speed. He shoehorned a Fox into a 1974 era F2C model. The motor was radial mounted to a really stout aluminum backplate/crutch unit. Very stiff. Sorry, no pics and I didn't get any details on the hop up.

Al Ferraro · « **Reply #7 on:** January 13, 2016, 06:58:22 PM »

Nice Rich, Looks like the competition is getting serious

. I've been working on my Fox speed and hope to get it in the air soon

. This year at Brodak is going to be the big shoot out for Fox speed and Perky

. I hope more guys jump out from behind the computer and come to compete and show off what they can do

, its going to be awesome

.
Al

C.T. Schaefer · « **Reply #8 on:** January 13, 2016, 08:06:25 PM »

Oh Yeah. We are planning a warm up meet in NJ on June 5. Workin on stuff now. TS
PS Nice lookin rig Rich.

Paul Smith · « **Reply #9 on:** January 14, 2016, 01:00:03 PM »

C.T.,

I have asked to have this added to the speed category at this year's Brodak. What is your thinking about rules?

Where do we draw the line vis a vis what is a Fox 35 Stunt? Some of the postings indicate no limits at all. Not even the crankcase. It seems like 10% nitro is the only limitation.

To my way of thinking, a Fox 35 Stunt would need to use at least the crankcase, shaft, rod, piston, cylinder and head to still be what it is. Sure, you could go faster with better stuff, but that's not the name of the event.

john e. holliday · « **Reply #10 on:** January 14, 2016, 01:14:39 PM »

I'm beginning to think no one knows what a box stock engine is. I remember a Fox engine disallowed in comp because the machine screws were socket heads and not phillips.

Paul Smith · « **Reply #11 on:** January 14, 2016, 02:40:53 PM »

The problem is nobody said it needs to be stock.
So then where do we draw the line?
It seems like factory parts (even if modified) would allow the engine to be a "modified" Fox 35 Stunt.

bob whitney · « **Reply #12 on:** January 14, 2016, 04:24:12 PM »

if u go with stock 35 stunt ,who is going to inspect the engines

Bob Heywood · « **Reply #13 on:** January 14, 2016, 08:03:33 PM »

How many times do we have to go around the pole on this?

From the beginning, the fundamental requirement for this class is that the motor must be built around a Fox 35 Stunt crankcase that includes the O.E.M crankshaft bushing and that it have a suction fuel system. Everything else is open. Fox 35 Stunt clearly identifies a specific product line manufactured by Arnold & Fox and later by the Fox Manufacturing Company so there should be no question as to the crankcase requirement.

Speed is record racing. It's C/L's version of the dry lakes or Bonneville. Use your imagination. Have fun!

Bob Heywood · « **Reply #14 on:** January 14, 2016, 08:06:22 PM »

Quote from: Paul Smith on January 14, 2016, 01:00:03 PM

C.T.,

I have asked to have this added to the speed category at this year's Brodak. What is your thinking about rules?

St. Louis Rules

Don't muck it up!

Paul Smith · « **Reply #15 on:** January 15, 2016, 07:12:24 AM »

Let's see St. Louis rules.

Fred Cronenwett · « **Reply #16 on:** January 15, 2016, 07:21:05 AM »

These are the St Louis Rules

https://lafayetteesquadrillecl.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/fox-35-speed-rules-rev-a.pdf

The engine requirement is simple, Fox 35 Stunt with plain bearing and no pressure systems

You are allowed to modify the engine with a hemi-head, stuffer back plate, different needle but it has have the plain bearing. The only thing we check here in St Louis is to visually check that is a Fox 35 stunt engine with the plain bearing and it does not use pressure for the fuel system.

Here are the things you can do to the engine

Re-time the ports
Hemi Head
stuffer back plate
open up the venturi
different needle valve

Fred

Al Ferraro · « **Reply #17 on:** January 15, 2016, 08:03:16 AM »

Ill through my two cents in. Stock Fox case on the outside, No cutting off the venture, swing weight venturi or rear venturi. Modification too the inside of the case are ok as long as it does not deform the outside look of the case, No ball or needle bearings. I am running a stock Fox crank bushing and stock OD crankshaft in my engine but I'm ok with guys like Richard Imhoff who are using a larger OD crankshaft, SUCTION FUEL PRESSURE ONLY. Piston, liner, rod, crankshaft, head, back plate, bolts, spray bar and needle valve are all ok to modify or replace, two blade props only, mini pipe ok. This makes it easy to police and the engine still looks like a Fox engine that some guy would use in his stunt ship, must use contest supplied 10% nitro fuel all castor or castor synthetic combination.
Al

C.T. Schaefer · « **Reply #18 on:** January 15, 2016, 11:58:30 AM »

Bravo Fred! The rules are very explicit in what they say AND what they don't say. No guesswork about the rules.

Fred Cronenwett · « **Reply #19 on:** January 15, 2016, 12:10:53 PM »

This really is a fun event because any airplane can be flown...Any airplane. If you can make a Cox PT-19 stay together for 14 laps with a Fox 35 Stunt installed go for it! Don't make it this more complicated than it really needs to be.

the only thing John Moll checks at our Fox 35 speed events is:

.016 solid lines
60' line length
Fox 35 stunt engine used with plain bushing and suction fuel system
There are a few other rules like one wheel I believe

We have been providing fuel at our contests
Fred

Paul Smith · « **Reply #20 on:** January 15, 2016, 01:09:37 PM »

Thanks for the St. Louis rules.

It says you can replace the NVA. That might be said to imply that the NVA is all you can replace.

By "modify the engine", it seems like drilling out the venturi comes under the heading of "modify". The technology is simple enough and nature takes its course when you try to take off it you make it too big.

The Rule Book is full of events where the machinists can make entire engines. If we allow custom made speed parts we no longer have a "fun" event.

Fred Cronenwett · « **Reply #21 on:** January 15, 2016, 02:16:28 PM »

When John Moll first put these rules together he realized that there were many modified Fox 35 Stunt engines so he did not want to limit the number of entries because some had installed a hemi head or other parts that were not stock

Fred

C.T. Schaefer · « **Reply #22 on:** January 16, 2016, 12:11:42 PM »

To Paul and ALL,
When Fred first posted this event and rules last year, it got my attention. Here was an event based on the most popular, available, reasonably priced (even now) and plentiful motor ever produced. The beauty of the rules are the simplicity of them. They allow a potential participant to exercise his imagination for the ultimate goal of achieving the highest speed using the Fox stunt .35. The 'box' is well defined. Stunt .35 case. Suction feed. Standard Fox friendly fuel. This leaves plenty of room for tinkering. As an example, I have been fooling within the rules for almost a year. Quite a few test flights and lots of fuel burned on the bench. Not all successful but the point is that it has occupied my attention and made me think about what might work. My repurposed B- team racer has had flights right around 95 mph so far. Not bad but what to do to go faster? Better airframe? Different engine mods? Props? As a speed event should be...... there are lots of options.

I think it would be a mistake to tinker with the rules instead of the, intended, tinkering with the airplanes. I would bet that there are plenty of fellows out there who would like to fly a speed event but don't want to go shopping for exotic engines and props etc. Or, want to fly a plane at 'real speed' times. Ie. 150+. At this point, I have no interest in flying at those speeds even though, 30+ years ago, my Formula 40 efforts were successful at the regional and national level. I have many great memories of flying with and, head to head, against many of the legendary speed guys. Especially my mentor and pal George Brown Jr and family.

One last thought. There are plenty of speed related events for Stock Fox .35's. Foxberg and Fox race. This event is different, as it should be. By watering it down it would be bland at best, hard to enforce and just not nearly as interesting as it is now. Go with current rules! There is No downside. TS

Paul Smith · « **Reply #23 on:** January 20, 2016, 08:01:34 AM »

OK, I can accept the St. Louis rules as written. The issue I have is that it leaves the door open for a "level 3" engine.

Level 1 -Stock.

Level 2 - simple hop-up including drilled-out venturi or flyweight carb, thin head gasket, packed backplate and other hand tool work.

Level 3 - all new high performance crank, rod, piston & sleeve.

The higher the level, the higher the speed and fewer contestants. Maybe it's a false alarm. Maybe nobody will actually stuff a Nelson of a FORA inside a Fox case. And it they do, maybe it won't work.

Since this is the final Brodak Fly In, it won't hurt to give it a go. If the winner is a FULL RACE engine inside a Fox 35 Stunt case, this will be first & last running combined.

C.T. Schaefer · « **Reply #24 on:** January 22, 2016, 06:03:20 PM »

Sounds good Paul. I for one am looking forward to seeing some crazy stuff out there!! TS

bob whitney · « **Reply #25 on:** January 22, 2016, 09:23:41 PM »

Mine should be ready for testing next weekend

C.T. Schaefer · « **Reply #26 on:** January 23, 2016, 10:26:17 AM »

Hey Bob, Test Flights have been cancelled in N.J. this weekend............ and the foreseeable future!

Dave Edwards · « **Reply #27 on:** January 24, 2016, 11:25:32 AM »

in PA, test flights are a bit rough today but lots of time to build...

C.T. Schaefer · « **Reply #28 on:** January 24, 2016, 04:42:24 PM »

Hey Dave, I better get to the bench. That is some BAD lookin stuff there. Spring is comin' just don't know when!!
TS

Ken Burdick · « **Reply #29 on:** January 24, 2016, 05:07:11 PM »

nice models!
Saw a cute facebook post....showed 3 ft of snow, the caption read
"in the U.S. they call it a monster storm. In Newfoundland, we call it Wednesday"

Glad I'm not there!
go fast, go often.

Frank Imbriaco · « **Reply #30 on:** January 25, 2016, 05:58:59 AM »

Any idea yet as to what day at Brodaks this will be held ?

Fred Cronenwett · « **Reply #31 on:** January 25, 2016, 11:30:06 AM »

The Brodak website still has information on the 2015 fly-in, they need to post the 2016 calendar of events soon........

Fred

Dave Edwards · « **Reply #32 on:** January 25, 2016, 07:15:31 PM »

Quote from: Ken Burdick on January 24, 2016, 05:07:11 PM

nice models!
Saw a cute facebook post....showed 3 ft of snow, the caption read
"in the U.S. they call it a monster storm. In Newfoundland, we call it Wednesday"

Glad I'm not there!
go fast, go often.

And your happy when summer falls on a weekend!

Paul Smith · « **Reply #33 on:** January 26, 2016, 08:57:31 PM »

I have requested the same times as last year.

Official speed flying Wednesday morning. Early flying is encouraged Monday and Tuesday. Events close at 6 PM Wednesday. Any flight that completes a mile is a official.

Frank Imbriaco · « **Reply #34 on:** February 16, 2016, 06:27:21 AM »

The rules require .016 solids. Silly.
IMO, .014 would have been plenty.

C.T. Schaefer · « **Reply #35 on:** February 16, 2016, 06:58:48 AM »

Frank, I questioned the rules a while back myself. The replys were sensible and, as they say, rules is rules. The .016's may be a bit of overkill at 85mph but make more sense as speeds go up to.........?

Paul Smith · « **Reply #36 on:** February 16, 2016, 07:20:09 AM »

Quote from: Frank Imbriaco on February 16, 2016, 06:27:21 AM

The rules require .016 solids. Silly.
IMO, .014 would have been plenty.

I didn't make the rules. Either way, I need to buy a set of lines. By going fat on the downstroke I save the issue of having to upsize later.

For some reason, Formula 40 Speed went up, thereby sticking me with a set perfectly-good .018" solids. I guess I'll be covered if Fox 35 ever goes up to .018".

Fred Cronenwett · « **Reply #37 on:** February 16, 2016, 10:19:25 AM »

When John Moll was putting together the rules he talked with Carl Dodge and Bill Hughes from the NASS. John can provide more details on why they choose the .016 solids but either way everyone will be flying with the same lines so the only difference is the airplane. And if someone travels to another contest they can use the same lines.

Because some people don't want to buy a set of lines we are making a set of lines available for anyone to use if they don't have a set. at the Feb 28th ICE-O-Lated contest here in St Louis I am going to make the lines I use available if anyone needs it.

Fred

Motorman · « **Reply #38 on:** February 18, 2016, 11:02:55 AM »

What about exhaust pipes?

MM

C.T. Schaefer · « **Reply #39 on:** February 18, 2016, 02:24:27 PM »

Not mentioned at all in the rules. Leaves room for experiments. Kind of like the 'good old days'.

bob whitney · « **Reply #40 on:** February 18, 2016, 03:56:29 PM »

thought i read some place Mini Pipes only .if not ,it should be

Fred Cronenwett · « **Reply #41 on:** February 18, 2016, 05:22:26 PM »

I don't see anything in the St Louis rules that excludes pipes. The field is really wide open, Fox 35 Stunt on suction with plain bearing, at least one wheel on the model. I put a link to the rules in the event section for the Fox 35 speed rules under the Brodak contest listing.

I would help if the Brodak website had a link over to these rules on the Fly-in information.

https://lafayetteesquadrillecl.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/fox-35-speed-rules-rev-a.pdf

Fred

Motorman · « **Reply #42 on:** February 18, 2016, 07:05:22 PM »

Rules as written:

"The only engine for this event is a Fox 35 stunt engine, NO Fox35 Combat motors, engine must run on suction, No pressure fuel systems, engine can be modified , but must remain plain bearing for the crankshaft. Needle valve can be changed".

Those rules are wide open for interpretation which means they can disqualify anyone if they are uncomfortable with your creativity. Been there done that.

You could saw the crankcase in half and JB weld it to the sides of a trimmed down LA25. What does modified mean? You are thinking limited modified but your rules are wide open.

MM

C.T. Schaefer · « **Reply #43 on:** February 18, 2016, 07:58:08 PM »

Walter, I think you just don't get it. The whole point of the rules (which were crafted by some very astute guys including a world speed champ) is to encourage people to TRY. Many approaches may not work too well and some will. If somebody (maybe you?) were to 'cut a Fox in half and wrap it around a LA .25' and have it work, I would say "bully for you" because you went to a great deal of work to come up with your own approach. Since the event is relatively new I think it needs some time to see where it will go. If the speeds go up dramatically maybe a tiered system of some sort would be adopted.
In the meantime maybe those who are interested in working with the current formula will get to work and those who have no interest will spend their time working on what interests them instead of spreading unfounded obfuscation towards an event in which they have no skin. Walter, the fact is that you are one of the most capable modelers I have ever flown with and I know you could excel here as you have elsewhere. You should only fly/build whatever makes you happy but not spend time bashing something that doesn't interest you enough to TRY. TS

Fred Cronenwett · « **Reply #44 on:** February 18, 2016, 08:23:23 PM »

I really believe you making this more complicated than it really is. Yes the a rules allow for a whole host of modifications, you could even drop in a different piston and liner and still compete. Like I have said before, the only inspection John Moll does here in St Louis is a very quick visual to make sure it a Fox 35 stunt on suction and still has the plain bearing. After that anything goes. Let it happen in June and I think you will be surprised on how easy and fun this event can be.

Fred

Al Ferraro · « **Reply #45 on:** February 19, 2016, 07:26:53 AM »

Why use and LA.25? Get a Nelson .40, take out the bearings, insert aluminum plugs with bronze bushings for the crank. Then trim up the outside of the case a little and JB weld on the sides of the Fox 35 stunt case.

Paul Smith · « **Reply #46 on:** February 19, 2016, 09:32:36 AM »

As the event director I do not plan to exclude tuned pipes, enlarged venturis, or centrifugal carburetors.

Motorman · « **Reply #47 on:** February 19, 2016, 10:01:35 AM »

That's a cold shot Tommy. All I'm saying is that any event has a shelf life and this one will go sour quick when people start seeing half pan sidewinders and tuned pipes with swing carbs on a Fox35 with tiger 40 guts but, I'll keep my opinions to myself if that makes everybody happy.

bye,
MM

Paul Smith · « **Reply #48 on:** February 19, 2016, 10:50:16 AM »

I agree with Motorman's position. But I'm trying to, just this one time, go along with the rules as written by somebody else.

But yes, you can put a Mercury radiator cap on a Chevy 409 and call it a modified Ford. Win one race and nobody enters again.

But this is the final Brodak Fly In so nobody will enter again anyway.

This is basically, in my opinion, a theoretical discussion. Maybe somebody will invest a fortune to build an engine that will be disallowed a week later. I guess if that happens the owner get the one-and-only Brodak Fox 35 Speed prize.

bob whitney · « **Reply #49 on:** February 19, 2016, 11:39:38 AM »

One Day at a Time