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Author Topic: What Selection Criteria Do You Use When Choosing a Scale Modeling Subject?  (Read 2383 times)

Offline Dennis Saydak

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I'm at the point of selecting my first scale project and I'm curious how others make their choice. Here's mine:

1) An aircraft that isn't seen too often.
2) It's within my building capability.
3) Since I need another kit like I need a hole in my head it has to be one that I already have or from a plan I already have
    so I can use up some of my wood supply.
4) Preferably I should already have a suitable engine but I'm also open to venturing into electrics.

On my short list are three "large" models:
SIG Spacewalker
MR. Mulligan from the AMA magazine article
Chuck Hollinger designed PT 19
Just when you think you're getting ahead in the rat race.....you find the rats just get faster! MAAC 13120L

Online Trostle

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Re: What Selection Criteria Do You Use When Choosing a Scale Modeling Subject?
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2012, 11:05:48 AM »
Nice question.  Here are things I consider when choosing a scale subject.

There has to be some personal appeal/interest in the aircraft.  This is really an intangible thing that I cannot really explain.  Either the airplane appeals to me or it does not.  To do a really good job for a really good scale presentation, I really want to do this thing.

Generally, most models on my list are not often seen as a scale subject.  This rules out most kits.  (Besides, I do not generally like to build from kits because of wood selection, construction differences I prefer, control installation, engine/tank mounting arrangements and on and on.)  Another problem with scale kits, is that some (most) have compromised some scale fidelity in the design.  If I deviate from scale on my model, I will do it for my reasons, not for the ideas of somebody else.  Another problem with kits is to find documentation that really matches what that kit represents, particularly if the kit does not have dimensions like span and length that are to the same scale, canopy shape and a whole host of other items where kits make some compromise from scale.  (That may be OK for Sport and Fun scale, but not so good for Precision scale.)

Documentation.  It helps to have some ready source of good 3-view drawings.  This does not necessarily eliminate some obscure but otherwise "interesting" aircraft.  With the internet, it is amazing how much material can be obtained (photographs, 3-views, books, color schemes, other material) in a short time.  I have a list of several dozen airplanes that interest me for various scale projects including some for Profile scale, others for Sport scale, others only for Precision scale, some for the Carrier events, others for the 1/2A scale events that are showing up around the country, and others for semi scale stunt ships.  I will pick up 3-views, books, photos, color reference, plastic kits, and decal sheets (which are great for color references).  Bob's Aircraft Documentation is a great source of 3-views for aircraft that otherwise difficult to find.  Persistence is key to this process of getting documentation and is part of the challenge of putting some obscure airplane together.  (For instance, more than 30 years ago, I started collecting information on a one-of-a-kind aircraft built in England in 1944.  I have found 16 different 3 views and have filled a file drawer of articles, photographs - many unpublished - and correspondence on this one aircraft.)  Part of my interest in scale is to gather information and build models that are not often seen.

Needles to say, I will never finish my bucket list. 

Keith

 

Offline Jim Fruit

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Re: What Selection Criteria Do You Use When Choosing a Scale Modeling Subject?
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2012, 06:21:41 PM »
Dennis:

I am with Keith on this one. It really helps if the airplane is one that you have a special interest in. That way, you have a vested interest and it probably assures the completion of the model. I personally have a lot of fun researching a particular airplane. Some of my research has taken place over a half a century. Like Keith says, however, today that research does not have to take so long. My preference is to not do kits for the same reasons that Keith mentions. I usually do my own plans. I have done the Mr. Mulligan in a 60" wingspan. It is a natural for a model (besides, I like round engines). This is not to say that a kit would not work at all for you. I also have built the Sig Spacewalker (the 9' version), it would be too big in my opinion. The PT 19 has been done by many people and seems to fly well. Pick one you like, get the documentation, don't under power it, have fun.

Jim Fruit

Offline Fred Cronenwett

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Re: What Selection Criteria Do You Use When Choosing a Scale Modeling Subject?
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2012, 04:58:19 AM »
Before I start a model for CL scale competition it must have these items before I even build

1) a good 3-view that matches the plans or kit. Build to that 3-view so your model matches it when it's presented to the scale judges, don't pick your 3-view after you are done building the model.

2) Documentation with color chip information, color and markings, and enough photographs to prove everything. Build to the documention, this way the model matches the documentation and you can get maximum points.

3) Ability to perform 6 options. Single engine, throttle only models can only do the following, getting the 6th option can be stretch sometimes. I don't like doing the over shoot or other flight options. If you remember Taxi use to be worth 2 options, now it's only 1 option. Also retracts and touch and go are worth 2 options. Adding flaps to a model adds the 6th option, or you can use multi-engine for the 6th option. I always plan out the options before the model gets built. Some options are less subjective than others.

5 options a single engine model can easily perform....what will be your 6th option?

   a) throttle control
   b) Taxi
   c) Touch
   d) Go
   e) 45 degree high flight
   f) ?????
 
Land softly,
Fred Cronenwett
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Offline Brad Smith

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Re: What Selection Criteria Do You Use When Choosing a Scale Modeling Subject?
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2012, 05:57:25 AM »
Ryan PT-21 Kit
by Brodak
this is going to be my first scale model helps i allready have the kit i do like its looks though.
Brad smith AMA780054

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: What Selection Criteria Do You Use When Choosing a Scale Modeling Subject?
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2012, 08:13:44 AM »
All of above plus:

Do not build anything that can be confused with an RC ARF.

Or else just buy the RC ARF and put a bellcrank in it.  Everybody will think you did anyway.
Paul Smith

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: What Selection Criteria Do You Use When Choosing a Scale Modeling Subject?
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2012, 10:32:12 AM »
Isn't landing considered an option for points?   Yes, I know if you  take off you have to land at some time or another, depending on how well the engine runs and the amount of fuel.
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Re: What Selection Criteria Do You Use When Choosing a Scale Modeling Subject?
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2012, 10:56:41 AM »
Isn't landing considered an option for points?   Yes, I know if you  take off you have to land at some time or another, depending on how well the engine runs and the amount of fuel.

The landing is scored along with the takeoff and level flight elements as part of the overall flight score.  It is not a separate option.

Offline Dennis Saydak

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Re: What Selection Criteria Do You Use When Choosing a Scale Modeling Subject?
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2012, 11:04:03 AM »

5 options a single engine model can easily perform....what will be your 6th option?

   a) throttle control
   b) Taxi
   c) Touch
   d) Go
   e) 45 degree high flight
   f) ?????
 

Probably - Deadstick to the landing. :)! :)! LL~ LL~
Just when you think you're getting ahead in the rat race.....you find the rats just get faster! MAAC 13120L

Offline chuck snyder

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Re: What Selection Criteria Do You Use When Choosing a Scale Modeling Subject?
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2012, 11:10:09 AM »
All of the above plus consider ground handling and what might happen in the wind. For me this rules out narrow gear. Will often tip up on the inboard wingtip when taxiing. Many tricycle gear setups, if done to scale, will have the model sitting at too high an angle of attack (F7F, P-38) to get smooth takeoffs and landings. On takeoff the model will jump into the air or "wheelbarrow." Carefully consider the urge to build in more mechanical options than you need; they may be fun and cool, but add weight.
Chuck

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Re: What Selection Criteria Do You Use When Choosing a Scale Modeling Subject?
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2012, 12:01:42 PM »
Probably - Deadstick to the landing. :)! :)! LL~ LL~

I watched Jack Sheeks fly his F6F Hellcat at a Nats several years ago.  It was a nice model and a nice size for CL scale.  I do not know for sure how big it was, but had the impression the wing span was between 50 and 60 inches.  On that flight, he had the gear retracted.  The engine run went sour, then the engine quit and there was no time to extend the gear.  Before the gear up landing, Jack called out as another flight option "CRASH LANDING".

Offline Fred Cronenwett

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Re: What Selection Criteria Do You Use When Choosing a Scale Modeling Subject?
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2012, 03:17:56 PM »
When I fly my 41" span profile F7F Tigercat landings are tricky because you have to slow down for landing, put enough up elevator to get nose high landings on the mains without hitting the tail of the model, then once the mains touch then throttle back to idle and apply full down elevator. The whole time you are landing you are making slight changes to the throttles to get just the right rate of desent. Takes Pratice and I guess I have landed that model so many times I don't think about that much any more. The A-20 Havoc I flew for several years also required the same technique.

Narrow gear like WW-I models can be really hard to handle on the ground!

Fred
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Offline Mike Keville

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Re: What Selection Criteria Do You Use When Choosing a Scale Modeling Subject?
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2012, 09:23:08 PM »
Do not build anything that can be confused with an RC ARF.

That's not entirely true.  A recent winner in Fun Scale (Burt Brokaw's P-51) was an RC ARF converted to CL, and nicely done.  Burt added enough extra detail that the model did not look at all like an RC "sled".

« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 07:10:19 AM by Mike Keville »
FORMER member, "Academy of Multi-rotors & ARFs".

Online Chris McMillin

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Re: What Selection Criteria Do You Use When Choosing a Scale Modeling Subject?
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2012, 12:30:23 PM »
Dad's and my latest sleds.

One can choose models that are very close to the real thing in outline and select schemes that make the models look realistic. P-51's are the worst in this respect, not one is manufactured without gross shape, cross section and dimensional distortions. Kits and ARF's! The best P-51 model I've seen is Jerry Worth's 1965 Top Flite kit. Burt's must have been really something to look good!
  
Chris...
« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 12:58:29 PM by Chris McMillin »

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Re: What Selection Criteria Do You Use When Choosing a Scale Modeling Subject?
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2012, 05:04:11 PM »
Dad's and my latest sleds.
 
Chris...

Chris,

Where are the leadouts?

Keith

Online Chris McMillin

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Re: What Selection Criteria Do You Use When Choosing a Scale Modeling Subject?
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2012, 01:27:30 AM »
I'm thinking about a Wayne Handley Raven for that, not an ARF though. I have a pretty well shaped kit with vinyl markings I could use as templates for painting the markings.
Chris...
« Last Edit: December 09, 2012, 02:30:16 AM by Chris McMillin »

Offline Clancy Arnold

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Re: What Selection Criteria Do You Use When Choosing a Scale Modeling Subject?
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2012, 07:40:57 AM »
I did not pick my last scale model, my wife did.  She liked the picture on the box!

I should have said no after seeing the size of the box, 4 x 9 x 42 inches!

It looks good and flies nice in NO wind.
Clancy
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Offline Mike Keville

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Re: What Selection Criteria Do You Use When Choosing a Scale Modeling Subject?
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2012, 08:25:16 PM »
Brilliant!  Few would try something that size.  I've seen the flight videos.  Very entertaining.  Congratulations on a superb effort!!!
FORMER member, "Academy of Multi-rotors & ARFs".

Offline Clancy Arnold

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Re: What Selection Criteria Do You Use When Choosing a Scale Modeling Subject?
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2012, 04:07:33 PM »
Thanks for the kind words Mike.   It does fly nice in zero or near zero wind at 15 Oz./Sq. Ft wing loading.

Fred C.  Two additional optional maneuvers I have used are Overshoot or Missed Approach and Wing Wave.  Just be sure of the wind direction during the Wing Wave!  I try to do two waves on the down wind half of the circle two consecutive laps.
Clancy
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Offline Avaiojet

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Re: What Selection Criteria Do You Use When Choosing a Scale Modeling Subject?
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2012, 10:52:24 AM »
All of what I've built, as Scale models, were for R/C.

Some I still have and some I don't.

Of the ones I still have, all of them can be converted to CL. Easier with some and a bit more effort will be required with others. Some aren't completed and a couple are torn down for a redo.

It's probably obvious by this list, where my interest lies and why I chose these subjects to model.

Here's what I still have left.

Gee Bee E
Wendell Williams racer
Gee Bee Z
Sikorsky S-39
Grumman F3F-1
Ryan P-22 STA
Grumman Widgeon
Waco YMF-3
Stearman PT-17

This Gee Bee Z will be the first R/C model I convert and finish for CL. I hope to start work on it again in the spring!

Charles

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Offline Avaiojet

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Re: What Selection Criteria Do You Use When Choosing a Scale Modeling Subject?
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2012, 07:39:07 AM »
The Ryan I have I scratch built from plans way lost. So old the airfoil is almost a Clark Y. Or maybe it is a Clark Y? Gotta fix that for CL.

Here's how I hope to do the Ryan up.

Charles
Trump Derangement Syndrome. TDS. 
Avaiojet Derangement Syndrome. ADS.
Amazing how ignorance can get in the way of the learning process.
If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.  Alpha Mike Foxtrot. "No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."  Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten. "No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot."- Mark Twain. I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.   Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."  "Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

Offline Mike Gretz

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Re: What Selection Criteria Do You Use When Choosing a Scale Modeling Subject?
« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2012, 09:37:01 AM »
According to this web site - http://www.ae.illinois.edu/m-selig/ads/aircraft.html - the Ryan PT-22 used a NACA 2412 airfoil.  It's a semi-symmetrical airfoil.  One of the best.  It's been used on many models, CL and RC - the Berkeley Astro-Hog is one.

Mike

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: What Selection Criteria Do You Use When Choosing a Scale Modeling Subject?
« Reply #22 on: December 21, 2012, 06:11:52 AM »
According to this web site - http://www.ae.illinois.edu/m-selig/ads/aircraft.html - the Ryan PT-22 used a NACA 2412 airfoil.  It's a semi-symmetrical airfoil.  One of the best.  It's been used on many models, CL and RC - the Berkeley Astro-Hog is one.Mike

Mike,

I doug the Ryan wing out. Haven't really looked at it for over 25 or 30 years.  n~

Thing has a flat airfoil. I also, and kinda remember this now, made the bottom rib airfoil semmetrical. I have attached pieces on each rib.

Fine, but not really good for CL, if you want the model to fly a tight loop inverted. Eventially, I may change this again or just build a wing. I hate building wings.

I'm really busy with The LOSER, but I'll try to get a photo or two.

The Ryan is a great looking airplane to model. Bunch of different ones also!

Charles
Trump Derangement Syndrome. TDS. 
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Amazing how ignorance can get in the way of the learning process.
If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.  Alpha Mike Foxtrot. "No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."  Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten. "No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot."- Mark Twain. I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.   Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."  "Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

Online Chris McMillin

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Re: What Selection Criteria Do You Use When Choosing a Scale Modeling Subject?
« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2012, 03:10:42 AM »
According to this web site - http://www.ae.illinois.edu/m-selig/ads/aircraft.html - the Ryan PT-22 used a NACA 2412 airfoil.  It's a semi-symmetrical airfoil.  One of the best.  It's been used on many models, CL and RC - the Berkeley Astro-Hog is one.

Mike

I think Maxey used it on the P-63 too, Mike.
Chris...

Offline Mike Gretz

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Re: What Selection Criteria Do You Use When Choosing a Scale Modeling Subject?
« Reply #24 on: December 26, 2012, 06:33:25 AM »
That could very well be Chris.  It's always been popular in full-scale and modeling.  If I'm wanting a semi-symmetrical airfoil for a new model, the NACA 2412 is the first one I look at.  Also available a little thicker - the NACA 2415.

Offline chuck snyder

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Re: What Selection Criteria Do You Use When Choosing a Scale Modeling Subject?
« Reply #25 on: December 28, 2012, 10:34:15 AM »
My airfoil preference is the NACA 23xx series. Performance specs are essentially identical to the 24xx series but with the 23xx the high point of the upper camber, and the low point of the lower camber are both at 30% of chord. I find this ideal for building a "D" tube wing with the spars at 30%. On the 24XX series the high and low point locations differ by 5% of chord.
Chuck

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: What Selection Criteria Do You Use When Choosing a Scale Modeling Subject?
« Reply #26 on: December 28, 2012, 12:06:33 PM »
Here's that Ryan. Heald together with tape and gravity.  n~

I believe my first venture into scale, my guess is 1970 or 1971. You can see the basic Clark Y, or something that's close to it. Plans were probably much older. It originally called for engine mounting on rails. Some years later I tried to redeem my poor building issues and made changes. Still needs more changes but it is framed.  ;D

Small by Clancy Arnold's standards, but this Ryan spans 66".

Be nice to improve upon and save. We do go back a bunch of years!

Charles
Trump Derangement Syndrome. TDS. 
Avaiojet Derangement Syndrome. ADS.
Amazing how ignorance can get in the way of the learning process.
If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.  Alpha Mike Foxtrot. "No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."  Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten. "No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot."- Mark Twain. I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.   Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."  "Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

Offline John Hammonds

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Re: What Selection Criteria Do You Use When Choosing a Scale Modeling Subject?
« Reply #27 on: December 28, 2012, 06:37:16 PM »
I have been fascinated by the Wagner-Hirth Acrostar as a possible scale subject for a while. Short nose may be a problem and the forward location of the U/C might make smooth take off and landings an issue but it has a nice thick (20%) fully symmetrical wing section and interestingly the flaps moved in opposition to the elevators like an F2B ship. My building skills will probably mean it will never happen but I think it would be an interesting choice which might be capable of limited aerobatic options if build light enough.

Info here.
http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&u=http://www.airwar.ru/enc/la/hi27.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://www.airwar.ru/enc/la/hi27.html%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26tbo%3Dd&sa=X&ei=oUbeUNTQAdKa1AXp9oB4&ved=0CDkQ7gEwAA



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