News:


  • May 02, 2024, 03:29:30 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: Small scale ship retracts, air or mechanical?  (Read 1265 times)

Offline Chris McMillin

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1899
  • AMA 32529
Small scale ship retracts, air or mechanical?
« on: September 25, 2007, 04:23:18 PM »
Dear scalers,

I have a couple of Top Flite C/L Mustangs designed by Jerry Worth. I have one that I'm going to finish stock, fixed gear with a 3-line JRoberts throttle and electric flaps and radiator/oil cooler flaps for the optional operational stuff, because they're easy.

Retracts are hard. The spar is in the way. The wing is too thin. I dunno which system is best for C/L and it's CF issues. Can air systems overcome the CF? Is mechanical better? Can the little units hold up to the stresses of taxiing in a circle (or my landings)?

Any help is appreciated.

Chris...   

Offline chuck snyder

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 282
Re: Small scale ship retracts, air or mechanical?
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2007, 04:58:38 PM »
Chris,
I use almost exclusively pneumatic retracts (Robart, Century Junk, and Rhom) , but do have a mechanical set that was in an R/C model. It seems to me that the real difference is in the quality of the construction. The mechanicals seem to be designed and built down to a lower selling price. Theoretically you could use as high torque a servo as necessary to move the mechanical linkage, but remember that one pushrod will be in compression and trying to buckle. I tried to build a set of retracts for a 1/7th scale Typhoon and set up to test for the CF as follows. Find the CG and weight of leg and wheel. Run a string from the CG horizontally to go over a pulley to a weight. I used a weight 3 times the weight of the leg and wheel. That's about right for 60' lines and 50 mph. Then see if your driver can move the retracts. With the Typhoon--long strut and heavy wheel--all I did was detroy the mechanism I had built. It had a jackscrew drive with plenty of torque. I decided the weight of a sufficiently strong retract mechanism would be too heavy for the model so built it as a fixed gear Sport Scale model. Once upon a time I had an FW-190, 1/8th scale, with pneumatic retracts. They sort of worked after I doubled up the number of cylinders and added a huge balance spring. My models since then have had rearwards retracting gear.

On the other hand, the Mustang gear, especially at the scale you are considering, is pretty short with a small wheel.

If you plan to use retracts as an option in competition you will probably have to retract the tailwheel too to get a good score.

Chuck

Offline Chris McMillin

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1899
  • AMA 32529
Re: Small scale ship retracts, air or mechanical?
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2007, 01:24:09 AM »
Thanks Chuck,
If only I was a super machinist! But I am not even a bad one, so I'll have to use commercially available stuff.
Bob Whitely had a good mechanical system in his Rabe Mustang, but the wing was much bigger than this little 1/12th job, so I don't know if anything will work. It would look great though, if I could get all of the doors to close! I agree on the tailwheel, which I also had to figure out. The model is just too small...but Robart does have some small scale equipment.

The test rig sounds simple, sorry about your Typhoon gear. It is a beautiful model in the pics, BTW.

I feel like a 60 inch span model is about the smallest a fighter can be for reasonable retracts, weight and wing loading. I have redrawn (outline) a Red Box Top Flite P-39 kit. It isn't too bad and all of the Robart stuff seems to fit alright even though the new Gold Edition kit is really for which it is specifically designed.

I just wish I was a machinist (did I already say that?) so I could build a drive shaft to move the engine back enough to bury it. R/C car stuff?

Scale is hard.

Thanks again,
Chris... 

Offline chuck snyder

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 282
Re: Small scale ship retracts, air or mechanical?
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2007, 06:54:44 PM »
Chris, I agree on the size of a model that can handle the "bells and whistles." I have also heard that mental challenges and exercise can prevent Alzheizmers disease. Scale guys should be in pretty good shape (if they don't go nuts from frustration first).
Chuck

Offline Chris McMillin

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1899
  • AMA 32529
Re: Small scale ship retracts, air or mechanical?
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2007, 01:25:47 PM »
Chris, I agree on the size of a model that can handle the "bells and whistles." I have also heard that mental challenges and exercise can prevent Alzheizmers disease. Scale guys should be in pretty good shape (if they don't go nuts from frustration first).
Chuck


I see what you mean, I have become a kit manufacturer for my 11 year old, and engineering is a tough deal when it has to look like something real when you are finished. Profile is even hard!
Chris...

Offline Bill Little

  • 2017
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12671
  • Second in COMMAND
Re: Small scale ship retracts, air or mechanical?
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2007, 03:51:42 PM »
Hi Chris,

I also have two of the TF kits withthe "Superform" fuselage skins.  One I started on in the early '70s, and another in the box.

My questions to the scale guys is about the operational features the original kit had.  The flaps, etc., were driven of the three line BC and worked in conjunction with throttle settings it looks like.  Is that still an acceptable way to get operational points in Scale?
Big Bear <><

Aberdeen, NC

James Hylton Motorsports/NASCAR/ARCA

AMA 95351 (got one of my old numbers back! ;D )

Trying to get by

Offline chuck snyder

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 282
Re: Small scale ship retracts, air or mechanical?
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2007, 04:23:56 PM »
Bill, No that is not acceptable for scale points. It is specifically prohibited in the rules.

Offline Dick Byron

  • Vendor
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • ***
  • Posts: 516
Re: Small scale ship retracts, air or mechanical?
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2007, 06:31:25 PM »
Chuck,
      I can't find the rule you refer to. Could you help all of out and tell us where that rule is.

Offline Clancy Arnold

  • 2015
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1453
  • I am 5 Ft. 8 In., the Taube is 7 Ft. 4 In.
Re: Small scale ship retracts, air or mechanical?
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2007, 07:14:13 PM »
Dick
Under the 2005-2006 rule book Page 153 for "CONTROL LINE PRECISION SCALE" for event 508.
page 154
Section 8.  Scale Operation Points, paragraph c.  Lower and raise flaps-0 to 20 points.
(lowering and raising flaps must be performed as an independent (nonproportional to throttle control) function to obtain maximum points).

I have not printed out the new rules section but when they dropped Precision Scale I hope they picked up these descriptions of scale operations.


I just went to the AMA site and looked up the rules in question.

Control Line  Precision Scale starts on page SC-5,
The section is now # 6 and starts on page SC-6 and
The paragraph c. is on page SC-7 and reads the same as above.

Hope this answers the question.  Note that it is not forbidden, but for max score they must be independent.

Clancy
« Last Edit: October 14, 2007, 07:32:37 PM by Clancy Arnold »
Clancy Arnold
Indianapolis, IN   AMA 12560 LM-S
U/Tronics Control
U/Control with electronics added.

Offline Dick Byron

  • Vendor
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • ***
  • Posts: 516
Re: Small scale ship retracts, air or mechanical?
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2007, 05:50:10 AM »
Thanks,
       I did not know that. I have noticed that the rule book sometimes changes things, IE, wording without a rules proposal. I do wonder why.

Offline chuck snyder

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 282
Re: Small scale ship retracts, air or mechanical?
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2007, 01:19:21 PM »
Check under the Control line flight judging guide 4.6. Independent of the supposedly eliminated Precision rules.

Hey Dick, the proposed rule changes for the next cycle are on the AMA website. An opportunity to comment before the first round of voting.

Offline L0U CRANE

  • AMA Member
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1076
Re: Small scale ship retracts, air or mechanical?
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2007, 02:49:17 AM »
Chris,

If you are good at sketching out things, you might be able to use a rigid  pushrod to use the CF on the inboard wheel/strut ass'y to overcome the opposing CF on the outboard wheel/strut ass'y -presuming 'cross y'r heart' inward retracting mains.

If you have a reference to hand, look over the way the old Goldberg retracts worked. CG had a compensating spring that gained leverage as the weight of the wheels came to bear. Set up correctly, there was little, if any, change in the torque load on the servo. By mocking that up, with the wingspan direction placed vertical, outboard down (to represent worst case CF) you should find a system that can operate on a standard RC servo.

I did, in 1969 or so, for a stunter. Servos were not as strong, back then. I added a further step-down gear to a World Engines (what, S-14 ?) servo, more for realistic cycle time than for power. Voltage was from a Polaroid camera light meter cell - 4.5V nominal, and the size of an AA cell - 9V battery snap cap ends. Got over a hundred cycles of the gear out of a cell - lost count while it still functioned...

Total weight penalty on a kit-bashed green box Nobler was less than 4 oz. Looked COOL in flight with the wheels tucked away! Since Nobler planform, etc., resembled the pre-war French Dewoitine 520 fighter, that is how the fuse was bashed, and where the markings came from. It had an ignominious end... Trippng 'gear up'  took an over-control UP move, and 'gear down' took an over-control DOWN move. (Circuit like a two-switch hallway ON/OFF light setup, with a mechanical feedback center-off at full UP or DOWN.) Got a too rich flight, requiring whole bunches of handle motion to get a sharp enough turn to hit the switch limits. Hooked the down line over the handle trying to extend gear. Went straight into a muddy field, to the wing roots. THEN - wheep-click, the gear came down and locked...

THAT shouldn't be a problem with a scale ship...
\BEST\LOU

Offline Chris McMillin

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1899
  • AMA 32529
Re: Small scale ship retracts, air or mechanical?
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2007, 03:49:57 PM »
Thanks for the good ideas, Lou.
Chris...

Offline Shultzie

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 3474
  • Don Shultz "1969 Nats Sting Ray"
Re: Small scale ship retracts, air or mechanical?
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2007, 10:30:53 AM »
Thanks for the good ideas, Lou.
Chris...

 My vote is for the mechneckal kind instead of the air...but hey?

I have a set of robart retracts...in the box that I had planned to install in a model in a model that I designed called the "Seahawker"  but after building a 1/2 A model of that airplane...I ran out of gas, intestinal'fort-a-tudel-do and then abandoned the .46 Seahawk....

Let me dig through my old box of drawings and crap that showed the installation that was used successfully by my old R/C bud, Ted Dello....who flew those retracts with success in his small R/C pylon racers.
(Ted was a long time Boeing model maker and dear friend in balsa shaving and here is a quickee toon that I did for his retirement party. Wow! That was a long time ago...but I think of him often.
 Chris:
Send me your address and I'll both those Robart retracts and Ted's sketches as a free-beee' "gift horse  H^^ LL~care-package?"

« Last Edit: November 17, 2007, 10:49:52 AM by Shultzie »
Don Shultz

Offline Chris McMillin

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1899
  • AMA 32529
Re: Small scale ship retracts, air or mechanical?
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2007, 07:03:39 PM »
Donaldo,
You are an awesome dude.
Chris...

Mustang model when finished should look like this inflight!

Offline Mike Lauerman

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 440
Re: Small scale ship retracts, air or mechanical?
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2008, 03:46:37 PM »
Chris,
Was Ed Weiner's Race # 49 black-and-white? (Only saw it in B&W photos, never in color)

Offline Chris McMillin

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1899
  • AMA 32529
Re: Small scale ship retracts, air or mechanical?
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2008, 04:18:04 PM »
Hi Mike,
Yes it was, and the numbers and lettering were green with black outlines. The propeller was 60's "mod".
Chris...


Advertise Here
Tags:
 


Advertise Here