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Author Topic: Scientific Beech Staggerwing,,,,,,  (Read 3850 times)

Offline Paul Smith

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Scientific Beech Staggerwing,,,,,,
« on: March 03, 2012, 07:18:20 AM »
I got this kit as part of a package deal from somebody at last year's Brodak. 

I believe the kit sold for something like $7.95 back in 1949 or so.  It was not the work of Walter A. Musciano.  I think a virgin kit would probably bring something like $600 on the auction market.  Unfortunately, this specimen had been partly assembly, abandoned, lost some parts, and was in another box.

On the UP side, the high value parts; the body shells, cowl, landing gear, leading & trailing edges, and plans are there.  The old glue was easily dissolved with my best friend acetone.

This might not be good for any contest event, but it's quite an assembly challenge.
Paul Smith

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Scientific Beech Staggerwing,,,,,,
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2012, 08:14:26 AM »
Do the plans list who designer and manufacturer is?    Looks like quite a project. H^^
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Scientific Beech Staggerwing,,,,,,
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2012, 09:37:35 AM »
It says, "plan by J. T. H."  Of course, JTH may have only been the draftsman, not the designer.

The top and bottom shells alone weight 7.5 ounces and the metal cowl is another 1.4.  It only has 184 square inches of wing area, of which quite a bit is in the fuselage.  I'll try to hollow all I can, but it's won't be a stunter.

It's interesting that the plans omit the bellcrank, but show the leadouts.  This implies that came out during the Jim Walker patent war.

As the third picture shows, I've added a crutch so I have something stronger that balsa to connect the engine, tank, bellcrank, landing gear, and top hold-down.

The kit gave me a nice airfoil leading edge, but the TE is just a rectangle, which leaves me with a big sanding project.
Paul Smith

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Scientific Beech Staggerwing,,,,,,
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2012, 09:47:40 AM »
I completed this kits little brother, the Walt Musciano 1/2A Staggerwing.  It flew OK and it does stunt.
Paul Smith

Offline Bill Little

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Re: Scientific Beech Staggerwing,,,,,,
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2012, 01:56:52 PM »
I believe that is the same model that Chris McMillian restored for his Dad. ???

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Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Scientific Beech Staggerwing,,,,,,
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2012, 02:35:56 PM »
I think I saw a posting of that.   

Moving right along, I verified the scale and it's a pretty true 1/16 scale.

I like the crutch-type structure because I can take it out of the plane set of the controls, tank, etc withouy messing up the whole model.

Step One is to get the throttle push rod hooks up so it works properly.  I used a pop-off RC linkage for ease of assembly and to get the throttle rod clear of the engine.

This is a Joe Just stacked bellcrank setup.  Joe, plese don't drill out the holes so big!  I need them small for the clevis.
Paul Smith

Offline Chris McMillin

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Re: Scientific Beech Staggerwing,,,,,,
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2012, 05:14:24 PM »
Nice plan with the crutch, Paul.
I found that the tank is the hard part, not much room behind the engine and pushing the bellcrank back. I put the leadouts termination just outside of the fuselage some distance behind the leadout guide. My dad's will never fly, but the idea was to have the lines pass through the leadout guide and then trail to the leadouts.
Good luck, it's a neat model.
Chris...  

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Scientific Beech Staggerwing,,,,,,
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2012, 07:02:32 AM »
That's a great-looking model. I plan to fly mine.  I am weight-conscious and will not produce a high-quality finish like yours. 

I see you changed it to an inverted engine, which looks better but creates a lot more structural issues involving the way the innards of the model are engineered.

I see you kept the one-bolt-in back and peg-in-the-front assembly of the top & bottom.   I don't trust that for flying.  I'm going with two bolts in front and one in back, like a pan rat.

This is my current thinking for a colour scheme.
Paul Smith

Offline Chris McMillin

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Re: Scientific Beech Staggerwing,,,,,,
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2012, 03:29:50 PM »
Hi Paul,
I didn't reinstall the front spoke for the hold down, it was there originally but I closed up the hole and just never did reinstall it. I think you're right having two hold downs.
The blue C-model is a cool airplane, neat scheme. That'll look nice.
I feel the finish can be nice and not heavy, with this model the weight savings will come from hollowing the blocks!
Chris...

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Scientific Beech Staggerwing,,,,,,
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2012, 06:51:46 AM »
I know you did get to work with the rough fuselage halves.  As I go along, I notice that they are seriously lopsided and will need considerable sanding to true up.  Also, I noticed that the Scientific kit has the tailplane mounted much too low, so I cut a new slot to get it closer to true scale position.  

Another issue it the windshield angle.  Scale drawings (and my 1/2A) have the windshield closer to vertical.  The kit top block has almost no angle at all.

« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 05:43:48 AM by Paul Smith »
Paul Smith

Offline Chris McMillin

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Re: Scientific Beech Staggerwing,,,,,,
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2012, 09:27:01 PM »
Hi Paul,
Yes, the model as manufactured is not too scale.

I shortened the cowling and reshaped the front of the fuselage from the top wing leading edge forward. My parents Beech was a D-17S and has the separate speed ring cowling much like Christine St. Ong's C-17L which you are going to replicate. The kit is more like a G-17S with the pressure cowling, straighter cowling to windshield lines as well as the wider chord fin and rudder. I did not build the long tapered bottom wing to fuselage fairings behind the wing that is not present on the kit, either.

The low stab was attached to the lower fuselage which was to keep the bellcrank/pushrod/elevator horn together when maintaining the original spark ignition engines. I think that's the reason for the split fuse, comparable to many designs of the era. It's kind of neat, being able to take the top off with the struts and stab staying on the bottom fuse half and bottom wings and the fin and top wing stay with the fuselage top. My Berkeley Bearcat is designed the same way.

I spent some time shaping the fuselage and even sanded stringer shapes into the rear fuselage area. The wings were attached so there was a bit of trouble working around them, but apart the fuselage halves could be tack glued and really worked over as there seems to be enough material to get a good shape leaning toward more accuracy.

G-17S profile below...and a C-17R, similar to Christine's airplane.

Chris...




 
« Last Edit: March 05, 2012, 10:19:16 PM by Chris McMillin »

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Scientific Beech Staggerwing,,,,,,
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2012, 05:07:28 AM »
Based on your drawing, I might make a new cut in the top "half" just in front of the tail feathers.  That way, the stab & rudder will be glued to the bottom and I won't need to disconnect the flipper to take off the top.

As you suggest, there isn't enough surface area to worry about the paint weight.
Paul Smith

Offline Jim Fruit

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Re: Scientific Beech Staggerwing,,,,,,
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2012, 06:26:21 PM »
Paul:

I fell in love with the Staggerwing when I saw my first real one over fifty years ago at a contest in Davenport, Iowa. The contest was held at an airport. I have taken many photos (no digitals) since at the EAA convention. I think that Jim Gorman's all yellow G-model is the best looking that I have seen. I have drawn my plans at a 1-1/2" to the foot scale. This would yield a 48" wingspan. I have framed up the fuselage, but I am stopped. There are two items: a) the pivot location for the retracts is in an extremely thin portion of the airfoil of the wings. Not too difficult in steel, but almost impossible in balsa and plywood; b) once retracted, the two wheels are extremely close to each other (almost touching) and the guts would have to be cut out of the crutch to make room. Again, this detail is probably nothing if one is working with steel or aluminum plate, but it is a real problem for modeling materials. Needless to say, I am building other models.

Jim Fruit

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Scientific Beech Staggerwing,,,,,,
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2012, 09:39:04 AM »
The retracts would sure be a deal-breaker on this plane, and a lot of others.  Even a realistic fixed gear is something of a challenge.  This model wouldn't be any good in a event that enforced the non-retractable penalty.

As I've found with other kits & plans, they're candidates for fun scale at best.

I've found that this a B model and the names of the colors.  It was built in 1936 and at one time owned by Mrs. Beech.  Still looking for B model plans.

That RAF plane in black & white has external bracing on the stab, but the red one doesn't.  I notice counterbalanced flippers in some and not others, too.  There were also some early models with fixed gears that would solve the above issue.
Paul Smith

Offline Jim Fruit

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Re: Scientific Beech Staggerwing,,,,,,
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2012, 06:35:54 PM »
Paul:

If you have determined that it is a B model manufactured in 1936, it is a replica of one of the earliest of staggerwings. The early B17's had fixed gear. The subsequent B17L's had a pneumatic retract system. Later models went to an electric retract system that had a jack screw that went up into the side of the fuselage (another detail that has me a little agog about how to replicate it).

AMA's plan service has several plans for staggerwings of all types. Most, however, appear to be just copies of kit plans. If you are really serious, what you need to find are the detailed drawings by William Wylam. They are done in 1/4" scale, so they are easily scaled up. He covered the details of all models, beginning with the B model. His drawings are extremely detailed. I bought a set about 40 years ago from, I believe, Model Airplane News. My set is very old, so I am afraid it would not copy very well. Maybe you could try to Google William Wylam and see what you get.

Jim Fruit

Offline Chris McMillin

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Re: Scientific Beech Staggerwing,,,,,,
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2012, 12:50:54 PM »
SN 102 is a 1936 C-17B.
The only fixed gear airplanes were the 17R's of which there were 2, and A-17F and A-17FS one each.
The B-17 was the first fully retractable airplane and the C was a little more refined especially in that the landing gear slide tubes were angled to 45 degrees from the B's vertical. The D,E,F, and post war G were all wider and longer in the fuselage and had standardized systems and brakes, ventilation, etc.

The letter preceding the model number 17 is the airframe version, the letter after the model 17 number is the engine designator, S for Pratt&Whitney, R for Wright 975, F for R-1820, B for Jacobs 275, etc.

My brother in law's B-17R is a 1935, SN 38.
Dad's SN 4687 was a 1943 UC-43 built for the Army and redirected to the Navy as a GB-2. Surplussed in 1946 it became a standard D-17S.
Chris...  

Offline Jim Fruit

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Re: Scientific Beech Staggerwing,,,,,,
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2012, 07:43:42 PM »
SN 102 is a 1936 C-17B.
The only fixed gear airplanes were the 17R's of which there were 2, and A-17F and A-17FS one each.
The B-17 was the first fully retractable airplane and the C was a little more refined especially in that the landing gear slide tubes were angled to 45 degrees from the B's vertical. The D,E,F, and post war G were all wider and longer in the fuselage and had standardized systems and brakes, ventilation, etc.

The letter preceding the model number 17 is the airframe version, the letter after the model 17 number is the engine designator, S for Pratt&Whitney, R for Wright 975, F for R-1820, B for Jacobs 275, etc.

My brother in law's B-17R is a 1935, SN 38.
Dad's SN 4687 was a 1943 UC-43 built for the Army and redirected to the Navy as a GB-2. Surplussed in 1946 it became a standard D-17S.
Chris... 

I am sorry, Chris. Wikipedia said that the A's and B17B's and B17E's were fixed gear. They go on to say that the B17L was the first retractable unit. I have to learn not to trust the internet as the gospel. I am too gullible. It is a little scary, because I am using photos from the internet as documentation for my C45J.

Jim Fruit

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Scientific Beech Staggerwing,,,,,,
« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2012, 01:53:39 PM »
Thanks.  I will need some way to do the white lettering.

I'm gradually working toward final assembly.  I've decided on two 3mm bolts to hold the top down.
Paul Smith

Offline dankar

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Re: Scientific Beech Staggerwing,,,,,,
« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2012, 05:25:28 PM »
Nice work, looking like its getting there.
Dan

Offline Dennis Adamisin

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Re: Scientific Beech Staggerwing,,,,,,
« Reply #19 on: March 11, 2012, 09:01:30 AM »
ANOTHER cool project Paul!  That fuselage restores the meaning of LOGging On!
Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

As I've grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake!

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Scientific Beech Staggerwing,,,,,,
« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2012, 06:30:31 AM »
Thanks, Dennis.  I'm sneaking up on final assembly.  This unexpected bad weather temporarily side tracked me into yard work.  We are being cheated out of a month of building season.  Furthermore, this Friday is our final night of indoor flying at Heritage School in Sterling Heights.

Paul Smith

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Scientific Beech Staggerwing,,,,,,
« Reply #21 on: April 12, 2012, 05:57:38 AM »
Here it is again.  I lost a couple weeks due to stabbing myself in the left hand with a gouge while hollowing the log a little more.  After 60 years with engines & power tools, I got my most serious injury with a hand tool.

Anyway, here's the dry assembly.

The tail feathers are mounted to the bottom half.  Thus the top wing and cover could fall off the plane will still fly.  No disconnects needed to take off the top.

New and "more scale" tail feathers and gear doors have been made.

The spun aluminum cowl has been silk-and-doped to make it paintable.  A color test piece has been completed.

The fuel tank block is done, it just needs to be brass-wrapped.  The OS FP25 has been bench run.

A huge problem area, the massive wing fillet was added and is almost sanded to shape.  These were a problem to both fool scale airplanes AND models.

The interplane struts are just for show.  The wings are glued to the fuselage - plenty strong.  The struts and glued to the bottom and slip fit to the top wing.  I will add a dedicated leadout guide farther outboard.

Biplanes need a lot of tip weight.  I've embedded a 1/2 ounce of solder under each wing, in addition to replacing the kit framework with a solid chunk of my heaviest wood.   The inboards were made light wood then hollowed out.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2012, 08:42:11 PM by Paul Smith »
Paul Smith

Offline Bill Little

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Re: Scientific Beech Staggerwing,,,,,,
« Reply #22 on: April 12, 2012, 12:45:13 PM »
Looking very nice, Paul.  Which scale paint scheme did you settle on?

Bill
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Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Scientific Beech Staggerwing,,,,,,
« Reply #23 on: April 12, 2012, 04:37:38 PM »
This one, Mrs. Olive Beech's personal ride.

I lived in Wichita four years.  Beech was BIG there.  We flew our models on their field.
Paul Smith

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Scientific Beech Staggerwing,,,,,,
« Reply #24 on: April 14, 2012, 01:27:55 PM »
Paul, this Beechcraft is really looking awesome.   I guess you knew CL went out of Beech field many years ago.   Now fly south of town at a dedicated control  line field.   H^^
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Scientific Beech Staggerwing,,,,,,
« Reply #25 on: April 14, 2012, 08:55:06 PM »
Yes, I heard that. After I was gone.  I got cashiered out of the USAF in 1977 when Jimmy Carter decided we don't need no stinkin's de-fence. Then after we were gone, Iran attacked the embassy and he didn't lift a finger. Funny thing, about five months after I got home, I got a note from the DOD offering to forget the whole discharge and take me back as if it never happened. OH well, MODELING IS ABOVE POLITICS.

Those were the days, my friend.  FF, CL, and RC all living happily together on Beech Field. The the only conflict (laughable in retrospect) was RC sailboaters on the lake shooting down RC planes.

On a happy note - Toledo was a big smash hit on Friday. Plenty of hard core CLers in the big RC fest.

1. My fellow GM retire, Al Mrock, founded the company that makes seaplanes like this.
2. Georgia bulldog RC pattern plane.  Great airbrushing.
3. Chris Craft Cobra.  I built a $1.49 plastic kit of this boat.  This model is a lot bigger & better.
4. About a quarter of the whole show floor.  The biggest annual event in Ohio, Indiana, and Michigan.  Not just modeling, ALL events in the tri-states.

« Last Edit: April 15, 2012, 02:13:03 PM by Paul Smith »
Paul Smith

Offline Jim Fruit

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Re: Scientific Beech Staggerwing,,,,,,
« Reply #26 on: April 15, 2012, 06:33:00 AM »
Paul:

From your last picture from above, it appears that the crowd must be way down. 10-12 years ago, it was so crowded that one could barely walk down the aisles. For that reason, I quit taking the wife in her wheel chair. She enjoyed the show, but it was impossible to navigate. Wasn't fair to the other participants either.

Jim Fruit

Offline Will Hinton

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Re: Scientific Beech Staggerwing,,,,,,
« Reply #27 on: April 15, 2012, 12:32:14 PM »
Jim,
Yes, it was way down.  Allen Goff and I finally gave up and closed down our swap-shop table for FCM at noon Saturday and went home.  I've never seen it this low before, and I haven't missed "The Show" for twenty years!
Our booth on the main floor last year was busy all day both Friday and Saturday, this year seemed more like Sunday usually is - sloooooooooooow.
One high note, if you wanted to talk to an exhibitor, you had very little wait!
John 5:24   www.fcmodelers.com

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Scientific Beech Staggerwing,,,,,,
« Reply #28 on: April 15, 2012, 02:19:21 PM »
Toledo.

I always go on Friday to miss the crowds.  It seemed the same to me.

2005 - Show $7, park $3, gas from Detroit $16 - Total  = $26.
2012 - Show $10, park $10, gas $32 - new total = $52.

Maybe they've exceeded the tipping point.  They can afford a 30% loss of admission units.
Myself, I drive for a group of three and averaged-down the gas & parking.

Not that I'm a big boat guy, but the workmanship is great.  You can really paint 'em up when they don't need to fly.  The hydroplanes have real turbo-shaft engines.  What? Five grand?  I'd like see to see run.

Paul Smith

Offline Don Hutchinson AMA5402

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Re: Scientific Beech Staggerwing,,,,,,
« Reply #29 on: April 19, 2012, 01:12:12 PM »
Re  post #2. JTH was J. T. Holmes. I will assume he was a draftsman as he also did the Yates Dragon and Lockheed Sirius drawings for Air World back in the mid 40's.

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Scientific Beech Staggerwing,,,,,,
« Reply #30 on: April 21, 2012, 10:51:10 AM »
I'm gradually honing in on final assembly.  At this point the bottom fillet has been laminated and sanded to shape.  No science here, just hand work.

I am tying to be scientific about aligning the top wing in all six axiis.  Not so easy.  The interplane struts are glued to the bottom and slip fit to the top wing.  There will be a dedicated leadout guide farther outboard. 
Paul Smith

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Scientific Beech Staggerwing,,,,,,
« Reply #31 on: April 22, 2012, 07:44:50 AM »
That is going to be something when you get her done.    You sure hve put a lot of work into what was supposed to be a simple build originally.  H^^
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Scientific Beech Staggerwing,,,,,,
« Reply #32 on: April 22, 2012, 12:42:37 PM »
I know.  This is like opening up a 60-year-old bottle of wine.  Most people just collect the kits and try to sell them at profit.

One thing that comes to mind is that I started CL in 1958, but none of the 1952 "old timers" were still flying.  Everybody had upgraded to the newest stuff.  I think they just slapped kits together with Testors glue & paint and were happy to get a flight or two.  I'm trying to make this more durable and also throttled so it can compete in today's events. 

According to some, this might be the last 3-line piston engine scale plane ever built.

However, I've come into possession of a Cleveland Boeing P-26, so anything is possible.
Paul Smith

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Scientific Beech Staggerwing,,,,,,
« Reply #33 on: April 22, 2012, 09:00:48 PM »
Quote
author=Paul Smith:
 
1. My fellow GM retire, Al Mrock, founded the company that makes seaplanes like this.

Paul,

Interesting Sikorsky S-39! Looks like a great model.

I built one of them back in the early 90's from RCM plans. If you look closely to the left of the photo you can see the model's fuselage needing a redo. I banged the wing tip up and decided to strip the model down to the wood. Eventually I'll do it up again.

Thanks for that photo, it was a reminder.

BTW. I have the Beech logo text. If you provide the measurement of the rudder I'll see if I can cut a set of them that small. "N" numbers also, but I need the measurement. Masks or colored vinyl. On me!

The Beech is a great aircraft to model.

Charles
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Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Scientific Beech Staggerwing,,,,,,
« Reply #34 on: April 23, 2012, 06:02:40 AM »
Thanks.

I can really use some painting masks.  Otherwise I don't have a way to do the white lettering.  I'll get to work on what I need.  It looks like four "Beechcrafts", two N-numbers and two number 62's.

Paul Smith

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Scientific Beech Staggerwing,,,,,,
« Reply #35 on: April 23, 2012, 07:34:02 AM »
Thanks.

I can really use some painting masks.  Otherwise I don't have a way to do the white lettering.  I'll get to work on what I need.  It looks like four "Beechcrafts", two N-numbers and two number 62's.

Paul,

I know I can make your numbers, but the beech logo text may be a bit small for my cutter. I'll give it my best shot.

Most of what I do with Beech graphics or lettering is for the Top Flite ARF Beech.

Charles

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Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Scientific Beech Staggerwing,,,,,,
« Reply #36 on: May 12, 2012, 10:43:53 AM »
Thank you Avaiojet, the masks are in hand.

This is the final set of pre paint pix.  I get so used to working natural wood, I sometimes don't like to paint over it. The first coat will unmask the defects that need to be sanded out.

This is like one of those motorcycle and car building shows on TV. I'm trying to get this done for The Brodak without compromising quality too much.

One big difference in stunt & scale: in stunt you can fiddle the color scheme for easy masking. In scale you have to make it match the documents.  
Paul Smith


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