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Author Topic: Scale documentation  (Read 326 times)

Offline Hemi Steve

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Scale documentation
« on: April 20, 2020, 07:51:08 AM »
I'm nearing the completion of my authentic scale Nats entry and I'm at an important decision point and need some advice.  I have all of my documentation lined up and I have all of the color chips for the proper RLM colors.  The problem is that the chips do not match the color photos.  The full scale aircraft is a Smithsonian restoration and I have details from the restoration that identifies the colors they used which are consistent with other sources for the aircraft.  But the lighting at the museum causes a color shift in photos.  For example, the RLM76 (light blue) looks like a light bluish grey.  I can adjust the paint to match the photos but any judge who knows his stuff will know that the grayish RLM76 is wrong.  I've got some Dave Platt advice that you never use color pictures in your documentation (probably to deal with this problem). So......

Alternative 1
Paint the model to match the color chips and use black and white photos and an excerpt from the NASM restoration write up describing the colors they used.

Alternative 2
Alter the paint to match the color photos and explain the difference between the chips and the model color as the desire to have the model match the pictures.

Alternative 3
Paint the model to match the chips, use the color photos and use the lighting argument to explain the difference in color between the model and the pictures.

Anybody have some advice on this.  I'm thinking I'm not the first guy with this problem.

Steve

Offline bob whitney

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Re: Scale documentation
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2020, 09:11:56 AM »
I was told by a world class scale builder that this is the reason he NEVER uses color photos .

remember that color photo's over ride anything on your 3 views. my 3 views said blue trim but the photo looked more gray and I got dinged
rad racer

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Scale documentation
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2020, 10:06:58 AM »
Steve,

I did quite a bit of air brush art for the WWF, World Wrestling Federation, back in the day and the WWF, being a large corporation, they had many guidelines I had to follow with managing their colors especially if the colors went to a print medium. Not just colors but, in some cases, few actually, design and composition also.

In the trade it's called "color management." Yes, it can get complicated especially in the print medium when dealing with different types of printing equipment. Much much more difficult today because there's more contraptions that share color imagery. Digital cameras are just one example and monitor color accuracy is another. I'm keeping this simple, a little long, but simple.  LL~

I have to say this. Sure, I never entered a model in a scale contest or put together scale documentation for a model, but I know color management and I know this well.

You have to as a professional if you do art for corporations like the WWF, Budweiser and Volvo. I did art for all three including many advertising agencies dealing with their specifications with color management, over many years. You simply have to get the color correct. Yes, they all paid me quite handsomely. They paid for my sports cars and aircraft over many years. ;D

So, I view your issue as a simple one.

Document all colors as best you can, color chips, and possibly back this up with letters of authenticity where possible. Use this acquired information, color chips letters, etc.

Paint your model based on the documented information you have acquired to a tee, that is, as exact colors as possible which were used on the aircraft. "Perfect" in fact based on your research and your file full of great accurate stuff!

If a Judge doesn't realize color photos taken at different times of the day or interior lighting, renders variation in color, same with printed copies, then he shouldn't be a Judge. Or she. PERIOD!

I may be wrong, but I strongly believe your job isn't to educate the Judge, but to put on "display" an extreme presentation which is as accurate as the full scale aircraft you're modeling, including colors.

I hope this helps.

Got photos?

Charles

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Online chuck snyder

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Re: Scale documentation
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2020, 10:39:00 AM »
Steve,
I would suggest you use the color chips and identify your museum source that links the chips to your model. If you have to use the photos for some purpose, such as the style of markings, then make a note next to the photo that it is only for the style and not the color. This is pretty much your "Alternative #1."

I have judged models that used photos for color documentation and found it to be very challenging. There can easily be 3 or 4 different shades of the color in one photo depending on location on the prototype and the way sunlight or artificial light falls on the subject. What color should the judge compare to? I Can't speak for other judges, but if you confuse this one with your documents, you will lose points.
Chuck

Online Dan McEntee

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Re: Scale documentation
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2020, 05:44:17 PM »
  Hi Steve;
    Contact Allen Goff or Fred Cronenwett directly about this. Allen is the ED for Scale at the NATS, and Fred writes the Scale column for Model Aviation magazine. Both are veterans of many Scale NATS and will steer you in the right direction, especially for Authentic Scale.
 
   I have played around with Profile Scale just a bit. I have learned from Fred and from Bob Underwood, who was a LONG time national and world champs level R/C scale modeler and scale column writer for several magazines and former AMA technical director, to make sure your model matches your documentation, and vice versa. Photos of military aircraft from a long time ago probably have the color washed out from multiple reproductions, or the subject  was worn and weathered. If you can document that the subject was worn and weathered, I would make the model match the subject. That is what they are supposed to be judging. You just have to hope you don't get a judge that can't read, or that he thinks that he knows more about the subject aircraft than you do.
  Good luck and have fun !
  Dan McEntee
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Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: Scale documentation
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2020, 06:33:00 PM »
I'm nearing the completion of my authentic scale Nats entry and I'm at an important decision point and need some advice.  I have all of my documentation lined up and I have all of the color chips for the proper RLM colors.  The problem is that the chips do not match the color photos.  The full scale aircraft is a Smithsonian restoration and I have details from the restoration that identifies the colors they used which are consistent with other sources for the aircraft.  But the lighting at the museum causes a color shift in photos.  For example, the RLM76 (light blue) looks like a light bluish grey.  I can adjust the paint to match the photos but any judge who knows his stuff will know that the grayish RLM76 is wrong.  I've got some Dave Platt advice that you never use color pictures in your documentation (probably to deal with this problem). So......

Alternative 1
Paint the model to match the color chips and use black and white photos and an excerpt from the NASM restoration write up describing the colors they used.

Alternative 2
Alter the paint to match the color photos and explain the difference between the chips and the model color as the desire to have the model match the pictures.

Alternative 3
Paint the model to match the chips, use the color photos and use the lighting argument to explain the difference in color between the model and the pictures.

Anybody have some advice on this.  I'm thinking I'm not the first guy with this problem.

Steve

Rule #1: Don't ask any questions until you have read the rule book frontwards, backwards, and upside down. Scale Rule 7.1.1.4. (pg 18 & 19) covers every question you posed. Read and digest this rule and you will know how to proceed. I think you will see that your #3 is the proper approach.
"Clockwise Forever..."

Offline Hemi Steve

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Re: Scale documentation
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2020, 10:28:26 AM »
Thanks for all of the good feedback. To be clear, I have read the rules and have highlighted and underlined the devil out of them.  Rule 7.1.1.4 describes a number of ways to document colors.  I have read many times, "don't confuse the judges". My question and the 3 alternatives that I proposed deal with how to not confuse the judges where I have certified color chips, color photos, b&w photos and written color descriptions from the restoration of the specific aircraft I am modeling.  I guess my intent wasn't so clear....

Steve   

Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: Scale documentation
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2020, 11:05:47 AM »
On the issue of not confusing the judges, you have to remember that the judges only have so much time to score a model. Your package has to be as clear and concise as possible. Based on what you have said, I would go with the color chips as your stated primary color reference. That is consistent with rule 7.1.1.4.1.a and 7.1.1.4.1.f. The color photos become a secondary reference, showing what colors go where. If you feel it's necessary, your written explanation may be used as additional supporting information to clarify any details not covered by the photos. Just keep the explanations brief and to the point.
"Clockwise Forever..."

Offline Hemi Steve

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Re: Scale documentation
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2020, 02:22:59 PM »
Thanks Bob
On the subject of time, generally how much time do the judges spend on an authentic scale model? Do they ask questions or just ask you to hold the model one way or another so they can see everything they want to look at?

Steve

Offline Trostle

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Re: Scale documentation
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2020, 03:33:08 PM »
Thanks Bob
On the subject of time, generally how much time do the judges spend on an authentic scale model? Do they ask questions or just ask you to hold the model one way or another so they can see everything they want to look at?

Steve

Judges should not ask questions to the builder during their judging process.  The only information that the builder provides is in the presentation material.

Keith

Online chuck snyder

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Re: Scale documentation
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2020, 04:38:20 PM »
In my experience the time spent has been variable but usually around 10 -20 minutes in recent years.

When you present your documentation to the judges you can make comments such as explaining the organization of your documents or any particular area you want to clarify. For example the full-size of my Hawker Typhoon was produced in the first batch (actually by Gloster (sp) Aircraft). The paint scheme was only used for a couple months. Everybody "knows" that Typhoons had fish plates on the aft fuselage to prevent the tail falling off. The plates were a field retrofit on early planes and were eventually added at the factory. The time when my prototype had the paint I chose was prior to the retrofit. So I point this out to the judges to explain why they aren't on the model.

Chuck

Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: Scale documentation
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2020, 05:16:59 PM »
Thanks Bob
On the subject of time, generally how much time do the judges spend on an authentic scale model? Do they ask questions or just ask you to hold the model one way or another so they can see everything they want to look at?

Steve

When I was C/L Scale Event Director in 2017 there was no set time per plane for Authentic Static Judging but it worked out to about 15 minutes. Since then a Judges Guide has been written that specifies how much time a judge should spend on each model. I don't remember the details. Perhaps Alan or Fred could better answer the question.
"Clockwise Forever..."

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Scale documentation
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2020, 09:50:13 PM »
This business of exact colors is way over rated.  Airplanes sit in the sun and fade all the time.  A factory color chip is only valid on the day the plane leaves the paint shop.

Photos and art work are subject to reproduction errors and degradation.  The essence of the event in building and flying scale models.  If the model is close to the documentation it should receive full marks for color and marking.  Many three-views are printed in black & white and call out the colors in words, as in yellow wing and a silver fuselage.

Demanding proven exact colors effectively disallows most historic subjects.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2020, 07:21:38 AM by Paul Smith »
Paul Smith

Online Dan McEntee

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Re: Scale documentation
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2020, 09:59:35 PM »
This business of exact colors is way over rated.  Airplanes sit in the sun and fade all the time.  A factory color chip is only valid on the day the plane leaves the paint shop.

Photos and art work are subject to reproduction errors and degradation.  The essence of the event in building and flying scale models.  If the model is close to the documentation is should receive full marks for color and marking.  Many three-views are printed in black & white and call out the colors in words, as in yellow wing and a silver fuselage.

Demanding proven exact colors effectively disallows most historic subjects.


   You mentioned 3 -views Paul, and they can sometimes be of suspect accuracy and origin.  Years ago I was asking Bob Underwood about all of this regarding his Whittman Bonzo and he said that this particular airplane some times changed from one week to the next! Getting documentation together that agreed with itself before he even started construction was a nightmare, He had to find information about that airplane at one short, specific point in time! Bob is a cool guy, and i got to talk with him often at the hobby shop I worked at part time for years, and a lot at Oshkosh.
  Type at you later,
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Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Scale documentation
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2020, 09:28:13 AM »
The scale pros from The Cloudbusters say "if the model matches the documentation, it's good".

I took a page out of a published picture book.  The judges compare the model to the picture and that's the end of it.

It is not their place to attack the research work of the publisher.  A judge who questions the work of the publisher probably has something against the contestant.

Paul Smith

Offline Fred Cronenwett

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Re: Scale documentation
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2020, 10:24:37 AM »
Here are some things to follow:

1) never a show anything that proves your model is wrong
2) colors chips are the best thing to use, you can prove the RLM # for the aircraft so if it matches the color chip you are good
3) make two books for the documentation, one for each judge so that they each have their own doc book
4) Do not give them too much information
5) Only show pictures of the one particular full size aircraft you made a copy of, do not show general "Typical pictures" unless it is the only thing you can find
6) Label anything that is different between your model and what is shown on the 3-view. Label the differences on the 3-view so that the judge can clearly see where it different, your photos of the subject aircraft will be used first, the 3-view is only used for the outline of the aircraft

Let someone look thru your doc book before you go to the Nats who can point out things to change before you get there

Fred
Fred Cronenwett
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Model Aviation CL Scale columnist

Offline Fred Cronenwett

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Re: Scale documentation
« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2020, 10:26:12 AM »
one my videos on picking 3-views

Fred Cronenwett
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Model Aviation CL Scale columnist

Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: Scale documentation
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2020, 02:25:59 PM »
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/airfixtributeforum/humbrol-colour-conversion-charts-t32199.html



Belows a prehistoric one .



1990 / 200'd do it . then had standard highly reasearched authentic from geuwine aircraft paint chips . With Federal Standard F.S. numbers .
With a section for the primary combatants colours . :P
Tho people tint em slightly darker as the planes get smaller ( like 1/72 scale , for authentic ' To eye ' effect .

Ah Ha .



Theres an Addmrilty Colour , between the two RLM colours , said to be the authentic prototype Spitfire blue/grey , by sods that were there ( Supermarine ) so KNEW ! .  %^@

Umbrols gone new fine paticle size , ( Enamel ) with ' blending ' instructions . But the plastic rivet counter nutters can be obseessed with minuatee ,
so forums like the I P M S are a good source of scale W W I I  info , for some things at least .

http://www.ipmsusa.org/

For English leaky info

https://www.ipmsuk.org/


Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: Scale documentation
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2020, 09:22:41 PM »
https://boomandzoomgraphics.com/german_camo_guide.html

http://cs.finescale.com/fsm/modeling_subjects/f/2/t/138929.aspx
Below is the comprehensive full unadultarated colour chart  .Scroll down , for ever colour under the swastica .

https://www.asisbiz.com/Battles/camouflage.html
« Last Edit: June 21, 2020, 07:15:41 AM by Air Ministry . »

Offline ed shearer

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Re: Scale documentation
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2020, 08:31:07 AM »
I usually don't post on line in forums, so please excuse any mistakes in decorum.  Regarding judging and judges, I offer a few points.  Many years back, as a member of a scale club (all catagories) the C/L members were asked to provide two judges for the local large R/C club event. We learned contestants should not be near judges while static judging.  The first incident occured while judging a really nice Christen Eagle. His only documentation was the color brochure from an airshow.  The color documentation showed eleven feathers ton the top wing.  He only put three on the wing. When he saw downgrade that, he began yelling and running around screaming,"They count the feathers ".  We were asked back the next year, and while judging a nice PBY with the owner hovering, his fellow club member came up ( he had not seen the model) and began discussing it.  The owner commented, " I didn't have time to make the struts."  Since I had completely missed that item, I immediately erased and altered the score. As far as poor judges go. at a NATS in the early 80s, a fellow club member's Howard Mr. Mulligan model was down graded because, "It couldn't possibly have looked like that".  The model was depicted as it landed in New Mexico with carb stuck in full rich.  The exhaust trail went from cowl to the tail wheel.  I had provided the pictures, and bought the book as backup, and after the event showed the photos and captions. He still didn't believe.
Ed

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Scale documentation
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2020, 10:07:59 AM »
The protocol in Control Line Scale is to mark the scores and not discuss them with the contestants at all.

The static score is not disclosed until the model completes one flight.  By then, it's too late to argue about the marks.

As with stunt, scale judges are not supposed to alter marks once they have been given.  Everybody should know that.

Paul Smith

Offline FLOYD CARTER

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Re: Scale documentation
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2020, 12:58:45 PM »
I experienced much the same problem researching exact colors while restoring a full-size Focke-Wulf 44J.  It appears that even the manufacturers were not careful about colors during extended production runs.  Judges should recognize that color variations were quite normal among production runs of the same airplane.  I suspect that cost factors, or availability issues were the reason.
"Growing old is easy.
 Staying old is hard"
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