Author Topic: Rules Change Proposals submitted (Read 753 times)

Clancy Arnold · « **on:** September 04, 2009, 04:55:38 PM »

I have submitted my Rules Change Proposals to AMA.

14 in Control Line Scale, 4 in Radio Control Scale and 2 in Indoor Free Flight Scale.

The two in Indoor Free Flight were interesting! The event rules for two Indoor Free Flight Scale events stated the the models would be judged per a "Judges Criteria." Where was the Judges Criteria form? In the Outdoor Free Flight Rules. The Forms were designed for both indoor and outdoor events, but how would a new contestant find them.

Richard Byron has also submitted two in the General Section of the Rules which I totally agree with.

You can look at all of the Rules Change Proposals by going to the AMA web site:
Select tab "Member Services"
Select "Publications"
Select "Competition Regulations"
Select "+ Rules Proposals"

Then you can open and read or download a copy of any of the proposals.

Clancy

Dick Byron · « **Reply #1 on:** September 04, 2009, 06:50:59 PM »

I sent in a 3rd one today.

john e. holliday · « **Reply #2 on:** September 05, 2009, 10:20:29 AM »

I see Clancy has been very busy. DOC Holliday

John Witt · « **Reply #3 on:** September 13, 2009, 06:53:23 PM »

Clancy,

A rules question:

There is a general rules section on electric power that states that the maximum weight of a model is 11 lbs (Definitions, 1.1).

However, in the controline scale rules, page SC-4, there is the table of weights and line sizes that goes up to 20 lbs. I couldn't find other references to weights in the general CL rules.

Is there another reference or specification. Sounds to me like there is an 11 pound limit for electrics. If so, any idea why?

John

chuck snyder · « **Reply #4 on:** September 14, 2009, 06:41:04 AM »

John, your post got me curious and I looked for that rule. All I could find under the electric heading was a weight limit of 11# that applies for events 604 through 630. I don't know what those events are, but they sure arn't our C/L scale events.
Chuck

Paul Smith · « **Reply #5 on:** September 14, 2009, 08:36:16 AM »

11 pounds is the English equivalent of the French mass limitation of 5 kilograms which is common in the FAI world.

Personally, I can't imagine allowing an 11-pound model to fly on control lines, let alone 20! There might be some 300-pound body builders that could handle one, but if these size models became the norm, it would X-out a lot of pilots.

Dick Byron · « **Reply #6 on:** September 14, 2009, 11:40:07 AM »

My B-24 weighed 14 lbs 4 oz at the 1988 worlds.

Paul Smith · « **Reply #7 on:** September 14, 2009, 11:55:00 AM »

They (the FAI) must have softened up on their long-standing 5 KG limit, like AMA, in response to the heavyweight RC faction.

At some point they cease to be models and are just small airplanes.

So, in your opinion, is it good for participation to make it so the man who can afford a 20-pound model and the truck to carry it will win?

Would it be better to limit the weight to a smaller number that would tend to get more players into the game?
Since F4B is dead, we don't need to be concerned with the beating world anymore.

John Witt · « **Reply #8 on:** September 14, 2009, 05:31:04 PM »

Thanks, Chuck,

I missed the event names under the title of the rule. Turns out 604 is 1/2A sailplane, there are two CL speed class (A, B) and the rest are various RC classes. I'll quit worrying about that one then and worry about something else

John

Clancy Arnold · « **Reply #9 on:** September 15, 2009, 08:10:37 PM »

John
I have competed with models over 11 lbs and it was easy. My P-38 weighed 12 1/2 lbs and it was a dream to fly. My C-7A Caribou that won 3 NATS trophies in CL FAI Scale weighed over 15 lbs. I can't find my old FAI rule book but I believe it used to be 5K (11 lbs) single engine and 7 K (15.4 lbs) multiple engine. The way to fly it was to lean back and set the throttles to just hold you up. If you had been at this years CL Scale NATS you would have seen what I mean when either B-17 was flown with (4) 25's singing.

Clancy

John Rist · « **Reply #10 on:** September 16, 2009, 01:21:16 PM »

I am not sure what it weighes but my EXTRA 300s with it's ST 90 pulls like a bear. But boy is it fun to fly! A lot of factores other aireplane weight controll line pull. As with most large scales I don't run wide open all the time. I also have adjustable lead-outs and adjustable rudder. Slack line worry me more than heavy pull.

Clancy Arnold · « **Reply #11 on:** September 16, 2009, 08:33:12 PM »

John
I always use aileron offset for line tension.
Clancy

John Rist · « **Reply #12 on:** September 17, 2009, 01:25:27 PM »

Quote from: Clancy Arnold on September 16, 2009, 08:33:12 PM

John
I always use aileron offset for line tension.
Clancy

True, Ailerons are also adjustable and have a huge infulance over line tension.

Chris McMillin · « **Reply #13 on:** September 19, 2009, 09:25:39 AM »

No model needs to pull as hard as some of the Scale models I've seen. Trimming is the key, but some Scalers aren't flying except at contests.
Trimming the model to pull just enough is the smart mans way to go, the rules are there for the worst case scenario.
Paul Smith's remarks , as usual, aren't worth addressing...
Chris...

John Witt · « **Reply #14 on:** September 19, 2009, 10:25:24 AM »

As a sort of philosphical aside, in the free flight column in the latest Model Aviation, Louis Joyner, the writer, mentioned a book on event entry trends by English modeler Phil Ball. Joyner observed,"One graph shows how total entries and entries per event have decreased at almost exactly the same rate as the number of classes have increased."

This suggests that perhaps we are subdividing the same group of modelers rather than adding new ones, by providing more classes. Would we lose entrants by having just three age/experienced based groups, say like Open, Senior, Junior scale, with maybe just two classes, one for highly detailed and one for "Sport" scale?

As a further thought, my opinion only, I think the "designer scale" criterion of having to draw your own plans is an unnecessary restriction. Without knowing the history of this rule, I think that the point is to build a scale flying replica of an actual aircraft and the means to that end are important only in the sense that documentation of the model's fidelity to the real aircraft is necessary. I enjoy the research as part of the process, but perhaps everyone does not. Would we have more and better models if this restriction were lifted and designer scale and sport scale were combined ( the main difference seems to be whether or not there is cockpit detail) and let the Open/Senior/Junior groupings be self-elected like the PA guys do.

As an instance of this, The Proctor Jenny kit I'm building already has several deviations to make to closer to the Jennys I've researched and to correct errors in the Beck plans. This model will be an amalgam of scratch built features, Beck plans features and Proctor features. Currently it fits in Sport Scale because it is ostensibly built from a kit and the Beck plans.

Considering the popularity in RC of scale models, it concerns me that there are so few who want to build U/C scale, and I think we as a group should consider very carefully what we actually want in terms of entrants/ model quality and growth.

What do you guys think?

John

John

Clancy Arnold · « **Reply #15 on:** October 04, 2009, 05:38:30 PM »

John
I was not involved in the start of Designer Scale but I have an idea as to the thinking behind it.

With Designer Scale you are building a model that no one else has ever built. You design it from the ground up. A very challenging undertaking. I have built three models that would qualify for entry in Designer Scale.

The first one was a P-38 which appeared in Model Aviation in March 1986, page 75.
I kept a record on the amount of time I put in on the model. I drew plans for the wing and then built it. After looking at it with a friend Jack Sheeks, it was decided that the wing was too small. Back to the drawing board and draw a new wing with a 65 inch WS. I built the second wing and it looked big enough so I finished drawing the plans for the complete model. Then back to building and in no time I had a model fit for taking to my first ever NATS in 1983. No Time - It took 1000 hours to design and build the P-38. It had the 4th highest static score of 24 entries in Sport Scale that year. Two brand new Supertiger 35 PDP engines kept it from placing better than 12th. I think they were ran twice on the test stand then flown once for a test flight before going to the NATS. Scale features include Independent throttles, Fowler flaps, retracts, Brakes and landing lights.

The second one was a C-7A Caribou for FAI Scale. It was designed and built the first time with a 76 inch WS with two HP-40 engines. I was not going to make that mistake again. It earned three NATS FAI Scale trophies in three attempts before I re kitted it in 1988 while in second place and trying to move into first place. Scale features include Independent throttles, Full span double slotted flaps, retracts, brakes, cargo doors and cargo drop. I was getting better, the C-7A Caribou only took 400 hours to design and build.

The third was a F/A-18 A Hornet. It is powered by two OS 46 DF engines swinging 5 inch fans. It has a 54 inch WS and is 80 inches nose to tail. Scale features include throttle (only one), Flaps with top doors, wing leading edge droop and Full flying stab.
I had stopped timing my builds, but I would guess it was about 300 hours.

All of them had scale airfoils on the wings and tails.

I think you see that a Designer Scale model is to be a one of a kind model that has never been built before. Others can build copies but you have the original.

Clancy

John Witt · « **Reply #16 on:** October 05, 2009, 06:20:05 PM »

Clancy, you have certainly built some marvelous models.

I'm not sure I'm phrasing this well, but what I'm suggesting is that the modelers self-segregate as to what level they want to build to. Perhaps Junior/Senior/Open implies age too much, and the groups could be called Beginner/Intermediate/Advanced and Expert (gee, this sounds familiar). Everybody except Beginner, perhaps, gets judged to the same standard. If you win Intermediate a few times you get bumped up to Advanced and compete at a higher level. I think the events get simpler and perhaps the judging gets a little harder.

Expert gets entries because there are many who want to compete against the best. Expert in PA carries a cachet not present in the lower graded groups, and so is what most aspire to do. On the other hand, someone who is satisfied with a lower level of performance can truck along in a "lower" group as long as they want.

What I think is important is the execution and flying of the model, not the source of the plans, the kit, or the ARF. If flying ARFs gets more people into scale models, then I think we will all benefit from increased entries and more events. There are people who want to compete in scale who do not have the time, skills or whatever to build at an expert level, witness the popularity of the Tucson 1/2A profile event. And by the way, notice the increasingly elaborate models being flown there

If you look at IPMS modelers, they nearly all start with a plastic kit, but invest much time in research and scratchbuilding components for theit models. The result is really superb miniature aircraft, so source is perhaps not so important. That said, the scale event should be set up so that craftsmanship, fidelity, originality, etc are rewarded.

I took it as a compliment when told I should move up to Intermediate from Beginner in PA. I would love for the same thing to happen in Scale!

John

Clancy Arnold · « **Reply #17 on:** October 05, 2009, 08:52:13 PM »

John
I think you have the right idea and it is included in the rules change proposals that I have submitted.

The Fun Scale as I have proposed would be a skill level event. "Division 1 is for novice contestants only. Division 2 is open to any contestant with prior CL Scale competition experience." See Rules Change Proposals CLS 11-14 and CLS 11-13.

I think and most CL scale fliers seem to agree that the level of the events are:
entry level - Fun Scale (Division 1 and Division 2)
2nd level - Profile Scale
3rd level - Sport Scale
4th level - FAI F4B Scale
Gluttons for punishment level - Designer Scale

I remember in the old Precision scale event the contestant had to provide a "Scale Ruler" for the judges. The ruler, when placed on the three view, will read the dimensions of the model in inches.

By the way, that is still a good way to design a scale model today.

Clancy

Chris McMillin · « **Reply #18 on:** October 06, 2009, 04:55:50 PM »

Clancy,
If I read John right I think he is saying that one event called Control Line Scale is enough. That's all they had when I was a kid and I showed up with some pretty crude ships. Not a bad idea, when there is a Scale event locally it's usually Sport Scale. Everything from Stunters to Profile Scale to FAI shows up and the best one wins.
Chris...

Clancy Arnold · « **Reply #19 on:** October 08, 2009, 04:49:25 PM »

Chris

I can see where you are coming from but I think that would kill CL Scale today, at least as a NATS Event. I can see contestants paying the entry fee, driving to Muncie, IN and after getting their one model Static judged they make one flight, see their static score and pack up and leave. Never to return again.

The two Divisions that I have proposed in Fun Scale are presently in the Profile Scale rules but seem to be totally ignored.

The one thing I have not covered in my Rules Change Proposal is what determines a contestant is a Novice and can enter Fun Scale Division 1.
The requirements to enter a CL Fun Scale Division 1 need to be stated on the Contest Sanction form and any advertising for the contest. Or a Rules Change Proposal could place the determination in the Rule Book.

My suggested wording: "Any contestant who has previously competed in a major CL Scale contest in Profile Scale, Sport Scale, FAI F2B Scale or Designer Scale cannot enter Fun Scale Division 1. They may enter CL Fun Scale Division 2."

This would allow any contestant that has only entered CL Fun Scale Division 1 in previous contests can still enter Division 1 in the contest in question.

I guess we will also need to define what is a "Major" contest.

This would eliminate Novice contestants in CL Fun Scale Division 1 from having to compete head to head against experienced CL scale modelers. Enforcing this rule would only require one additional set of trophies at each CL Scale contest it is offered.

Clancy