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Author Topic: Putting together a B-25 kit.  (Read 6866 times)

Offline Paul Smith

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Putting together a B-25 kit.
« on: May 06, 2016, 09:01:42 PM »
This is turning into one of those hot rod & motorcycle hurry-up build shows.  I started in mid-March and want to be flying by June 1st.  I don't want compromise quality too much, but I don't want to fly in 2017 either.  As you can see, I prefer the modular build, painting as I go.

I carbon-veiled the nacelles, body and outer wings.  I used silk on the stress area of the wing.

Block-sanding the ten attachments to the wing is the next chore.  Counting wingtips, ailerons, outer & inner flaps, and nacelle fairings there are ten blocks that need to be blended into the trailing edge, top & bottom of the wing, and each other.  And also make right & left match.  Not impossible, just a lot of hand work.

I will have to edit the pitcher to spell Mitchell correctly.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2016, 09:44:59 PM by Paul Smith »
Paul Smith

Offline Clancy Arnold

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Re: Putting together a B-25 kit.
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2016, 03:23:57 AM »
Paul
Good luck with the B-25.  I enjoyed flying twin engine scale models, P-38 and C-7A, hope you do also.
Clancy
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Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Putting together a B-25 kit.
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2016, 07:05:02 AM »
Thanks.  I went with the 2.4.  I was never entirely happy with the Roberts 3-line system, although I used it for 50 years on single engine models.  My confidence was really shaken when a new 3-line bellcrank failed on the first day of flying.

The 2.4 system with a Y-cord and two servos sure beats a mechanical twin or multi.  

This is my scheme for aligning the main gear.  I left on leg loose and clamped the wing to my bench, then solidified the loose leg.

I went with outdoor leadouts to get them on the vertical CL of the model.  They are now MORE adjustable than any inside leadouts and the ribs are not slotted.
Paul Smith

Offline Fred Cronenwett

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Re: Putting together a B-25 kit.
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2016, 08:18:42 AM »
2.4 is the way to go and the two servos work great. I tried one servo with a bunch of bellcranks and pushrods once, it kinda worked but the two servos is the best way.

This is the process I use to sync the motors - this is how I get a twin to shut down at the same time

1) Tune each motor by itself with the high speed needle
2) start both motors and slowly reduce the throttle until both engines shut down, take note on which engine shuts down first
3) Remove the clevis from engine that shut down first and turn it out to lengthen the pushrod, this will speed up the engine. Do not adjust the needle valves to sync the engines
4) run the motors again and see if the engines shut down at the same time. Repeat step 2 and 3 until both engines shut down at the same time. you only do this once, the next time you go flying you won't need to do this.



Good luck with the B-25!
Fred
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Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Putting together a B-25 kit.
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2016, 09:36:16 AM »
Thanks for the advice.  I'm sure this will take a bit of fiddling around, but not as much as doing the same thing with mechanical.  I have two years experience with getting 2.4 to work OK on several single engine planes.  

I like the ability to rev the engine while I'm walking out to the handle.  Also the ability to dial down the idle speed with the throttle trim BEFORE I call for takeoff.  That way, if it quits, I'm still off the book.

Here's the Harbor belt sander I bought to deal with the many parts that need to be sanded.

Here are the engine nacelles being hollowed-out and sheeted-over.  The back ends are sheeted to eliminate the step at end of the doublers.  Also the blocks I made to align the nacelles, wing, and fuselage.  

I went to 3 MM bolts and t-nuts.  The MUCH bigger diameter of the t-nuts is intended to prevent the chronic problem of t-nuts spinning loose.

Paul Smith

Offline Fred Cronenwett

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Re: Putting together a B-25 kit.
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2016, 11:39:29 AM »
I use the 2-56 threaded pushrods, one end has a clevis soldered to the pushrod and the other end has the threaded clevis, move the threaded clevis  2 or 3 turns and the engine speed will change. You adjust one of the threaded clevis to speed up or slow down one of the motors so that they match.

Fred
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Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Putting together a B-25 kit.
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2016, 08:30:22 PM »
I used to use the 2/56 Dubro stuff with mechanical systems.

Now, with small servos I go with the RC type screw connectors and small diameter wire.  I find that even 2/56 stuff is too heavy for the servo arms.  I use thin wire with a z-bend to relieve any stress caused by overtravel.
Paul Smith

Offline pat king

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Re: Putting together a B-25 kit.
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2016, 04:57:08 PM »
You should be aware that the Brodak B25 has 18% too much wing area. At 55" span a B25 should have 400 square inches. The wing shape should be as per the attached.

Pat
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Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Putting together a B-25 kit.
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2016, 06:34:24 AM »
I noticed quite a few off-scale issues with the Brodak kit design.  I corrected some of them.  
The Brodak B-25 kit is one heck of a good deal for the price.  The laser-cutting of the wing parts was a huge piece of work that I didn't need to do.

This is only my second twin, after a successful 1/2A.  I saw several successful examples of this kit design, so I accepted Pete's engineering, up to a point.

The kit design was "scale enough" to win Profile Scale at The Brodak Fly In and the AMA Nats.  I'm making this for Fun scale.  If I build one for
 Profile I will correct the other issues.

I would like to build a B-25 or B-57 for Sport Scale, but I will not waste my time building a model that will be penalized under the "NO retract" rule.  You cannot expect to win contests if you build planes that are penalized, even if the penalty is small.  Contests are won by less than a full point.
Paul Smith

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Putting together a B-25 kit.
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2016, 06:43:26 AM »
You should be aware that the Brodak B25 has 18% too much wing area. At 55" span a B25 should have 400 square inches. The wing shape should be as per the attached.

Pat

The Autocad drawing you posted is for somebody else's STUNT B-25.  I am building Brodak SCALE kit designed by Pete Klepsik.
Paul Smith

Offline pat king

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Re: Putting together a B-25 kit.
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2016, 10:23:28 AM »
The Autocad drawing you posted is for somebody else's STUNT B-25.  I am building Brodak SCALE kit designed by Pete Klepsik.
The B-25C posted is 3/4" = 1' scale for Profile Scale competition. The C/L kit is my design.

Pat
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Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Putting together a B-25 kit.
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2016, 10:45:31 AM »
Pat,

WOW!

Nice drawings/art and great observations.  H^^

The B-25 is a great aircraft to model.

Charles
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Amazing how ignorance can get in the way of the learning process.
If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.  Alpha Mike Foxtrot. "No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."  Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten. "No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot."- Mark Twain. I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.   Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."  "Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Putting together a B-25 kit.
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2016, 12:09:41 PM »
The Brodak kit appears to have a scale factor of 6.8% or 14.7-to-1.  So it's a little bigger than 1/16 scale.

Wing area is a fuzzy thing in profile scale. You gain some effective wing area due to the road-killing of the fuselage and nacelles.  Funny things happen, like the landing gear comes out of the wing instead of the nacelle, or else if you make it come out of the nacelle, but then it's too wide-track.  

Yesterday was a day of tool-making, as in jig-and-fixture.  Things don't align themselves.  Once I get the tool mastered with just the nacelles it will be time to add the fuselage.  

Radio check? Lima Charlie.  Five by & tree top high.

The servo boxes allow the servos to be swapped out with a pair of 4/40's, not those pesky little servo screws.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2016, 12:34:31 PM by Paul Smith »
Paul Smith

Offline wwwarbird

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Re: Putting together a B-25 kit.
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2016, 07:39:11 PM »
You should be aware that the Brodak B25 has 18% too much wing area. At 55" span a B25 should have 400 square inches. The wing shape should be as per the attached.

Pat

 I would KILL for a modern laser cut kit of a full-fuse, scale appearing 56-60" B-25 Stunter for two .25's.  S?P

 I love Don's, and have a set of plans, but it's a profile. :(

 If such a kit should materialize, I would clear my workbench.  y1
Narrowly averting disaster since 1964! 

Wayne Willey
Albert Lea, MN U.S.A. IC C/L Aircraft Modeler, Ex AMA member

Offline pat king

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Re: Putting together a B-25 kit.
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2016, 09:09:38 PM »
The Brodak kit appears to have a scale factor of 6.8% or 14.7-to-1.  So it's a little bigger than 1/16 scale.

Wing area is a fuzzy thing in profile scale. You gain some effective wing area due to the road-killing of the fuselage and nacelles.  Funny things happen, like the landing gear comes out of the wing instead of the nacelle, or else if you make it come out of the nacelle, but then it's too wide-track.  

I believe that the engine centerlines on a profile twin should be in the scale locations. that puts the outboard side of the nacelles at the positions of the scale engine centerlines, and the nacelle centerlines different distances from the centerline of the airplane. If the gear are mounted on the outside of the nacelles they are basically on the centerlines of the engines. This puts the gear in the proper locations.  The effective wing area of a profile airplane is larger than the effective wing area of a full fuselage airplane because almost no wing area is blanked by the fuselage or nacelles.
470 square inches of wing area is not much for a pair of .25 engines. 235 square inch stunters are normally powered by .061 engines.
It looks like you are doing a great job with your build.


Pat
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Putting together a B-25 kit.
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2016, 09:41:50 PM »
I haven't figure the wing area on the B-25 I'm working on.  Finally got two more coats of talc and dope on today.   It takes up a lot of room in my shop. H^^
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Offline wwwarbird

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Re: Putting together a B-25 kit.
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2016, 10:01:52 PM »
I believe that the engine centerlines on a profile twin should be in the scale locations. that puts the outboard side of the nacelles at the positions of the scale engine centerlines, and the nacelle centerlines different distances from the centerline of the airplane.

Pat

 FWIW I agree, that's exactly how I did my PBY stunter, the engine centerlines are equidistant from the fuselage centerline.
Narrowly averting disaster since 1964! 

Wayne Willey
Albert Lea, MN U.S.A. IC C/L Aircraft Modeler, Ex AMA member

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Putting together a B-25 kit.
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2016, 09:05:15 AM »
Getting into hair-splitting issues, on a twin profile, I would want the CL's  of the nacelles to be in the scale locations.
Then, like the typical profile, with the engines are mounted to the outer face of the nacelles.
So this ends up with the inner engine being closer to the fuselage than the outer engine.
But, ignoring the 1/2" outboard displacement of the engines, the nacelles look correct.

The published wing area of the real B-25 is 6,073 square inches with a span of 810.8 inches.  This works out to an aspect ratio of 7.49.
The problem is that I don't know for sure if this wing area includes wing area enclosed in the fuselage & nacelles.  In modeling we include enclosed wing area.  I do not know if the spec writer did it that way, or just counted wetted surface.

Based on the aspect ratio the Brodak kit should have 412 square inches to fit the 55" span.  I'll measure it soon.
Paul Smith

Offline pat king

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Re: Putting together a B-25 kit.
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2016, 02:56:24 PM »
Paul,
I know that the wing shape of my kit matches the wing shape on the government 3 view for the B 25C. At 1/16 scale that gives 340 square inches of wing area the way we measure models. My calculations say we would have 400 square inches if the wingspan is 55 inches. Having never seen the Brodak airplane and not having a plan view picture I can't be sure, but it appears that the wing is wide at the tips. That may account for the advertised 470 square inches.

Pat
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Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Putting together a B-25 kit.
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2016, 09:27:14 AM »
The all important mechanical testing.  The fuel tanks are rehabbed Perfect rectanks.  They tested OK with 30 psi of CA.

The engines were both run on a 2.4 test stand with the actual flight tank.  Both OK on the first pass.  This needed to be assured before proceeding with assembly.

Range and run time are good.
Paul Smith

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Putting together a B-25 kit.
« Reply #20 on: May 25, 2016, 09:32:41 AM »
With the engines safely in hand I was able to proceed with final assembly using my hardwood fixture.  
Precision paint stirrers center the fuse visa vis the nacelles.

Mini me.  A toy grade B-25 model provides a perspective, if not reliable evidence.  Can you pick out all the flaws in this "Doolittle raider".  In addition to the flayed-out guns and the single pilot?

OK, forward turret, cheek guns and side windows, all of these were long after the B-25B.
Paul Smith

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Putting together a B-25 kit.
« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2016, 11:02:32 AM »
Wasn't all the guns and turrets removed so they could add more fuel?
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Putting together a B-25 kit.
« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2016, 03:35:02 PM »
Righto.

The plastic toy is basically a J model with B model decals to make it into a Doolittle raider.  83 of the 100 surviving B-25 are J models.  Many, including the fake Doolittle raider in the Nimitz Museum, are J's retrofitted into the more heroic B, C, and D models.
Paul Smith

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Putting together a B-25 kit.
« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2016, 04:04:06 PM »
... but I don't want to fly in 2017 either ...

I just looked in on this thread -- it's looking good.  But you can fly the plane in 2017 if you're careful with it in 2016.
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Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Putting together a B-25 kit.
« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2016, 06:51:50 AM »
It's ready to fly now.  June 6th, 2016.  I got the wing jig on Mach 13th.  Ready to fly in under three months.

100 ounces, 6 pounds 4 ounces.  I could get away with two .018" lines but I made up a brand new set of .021's.  The pull will be 31.25 pounds (child's play).

The pictures I posted seem to have been lost in the SH computer glitch.

About 83 of the remaining 100 or so B-25's are the J model, which was the final and most numerous mass-produced rev of the B-25.   But the majority have been modified to look like the more heroic B, C, D, G, and H models, which had more glorious war records, but were lost in the process.

The prime example is my prototype, which trained countless pilots for nine years (at great risk to it's airframe), but now sits in a museum disguised as a B model that only flew ONE combat mission.

The ARMY Air Force used this design for seven years.  The US Air Force used it for 13 years, thus the modern markings on mine.
Paul Smith

Offline Fred Cronenwett

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Re: Putting together a B-25 kit.
« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2016, 10:41:26 AM »
Per the updated (Spring 2016) rules you only need .018 diameter lines for that weight, .021 is for the 9-12 lbs range

I recently did a pull test on some braided flying lines and took them to failure and the .018 (fly by wire brand) popped at 45 lbs of pull, the .021 popped at 80 lbs, but it exceeded the 60 lbs that it is suppose to hold. This pull test was on one line. At some point I want to get some the MBS .018 line material and pull that and see where it breaks.

With the .021 lines it could withstand 100 or more lbs of line tension and still be safe.

The neat part was the .022 solids I tested for the 12-20 lb range and it held 120 lbs without breaking a sweat, I still haven't been able to break that .022 solid line.....The B-29 comes in at 14 lbs and maybe pulls 40-50 lbs so I am very safe.

Fred
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Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Putting together a B-25 kit.
« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2016, 01:26:10 PM »
No need to risk a model of this size with bare-minimum lines.

I've flown 1.5 pound combat planes on .018" for decades.  I can't get my head around flying six pounds on the same size.

In scale there are no speed and stunt points, so I'll be better safe than sorry and use .021's. 

I put together some .014" and .016" solids for Perky & Fox 35 Speed.  I don't mess with solids unless they make me.  While solids have more steel for the frontal area, the chance of failure due to a minor handling accident is too much for me.
Paul Smith

Offline Fred Cronenwett

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Re: Putting together a B-25 kit.
« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2016, 04:58:01 PM »
.018 or .021 will work great, the .021 will just have more line drag.

If we think about all of the parts that make up our control systems we have the following parts. We just had a model fail recently when the center bushing that held on the bellcrank failed and caused the crash of the model. It was a small sport model that weighed about 2 lbs, the old perfect Bellcrank center point bushing failed.

Bellcrank
leadouts
connectors
flying lines
connectors
handle

the weakest link is the connectors and how we wrap or crimp the lines. I noticed the line drag on the B-29 was way down with the .022 solids compared to the .027 braided. The .027 braided can carry a lot of load, if anyone ever reaches the max load for a pair of .027 lines they would be pulled out of the circle. These lines are rated at 135 lbs

I have also have been wrapping the ends of my lines instead of using the crimp methods.

Fred
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Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Putting together a B-25 kit.
« Reply #28 on: June 08, 2016, 08:13:31 PM »
.027" was way over the top.   If a model really needed (3) .027's with a total strength of 375 pounds, nobody should have been trying to fly it.

The theory that all 3-line systems share the load equally was always a shaky theory to put your trust into.  Realistically, they often bottom out and carry the load on two.  Even then, two .027's would have 250 pounds of strength. 

The 2.4 system gets rid of the weakest link of all - the three-line bellcrank.
Paul Smith

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Putting together a B-25 kit.
« Reply #29 on: June 09, 2016, 08:44:49 PM »
It flew OK at Brad's today.  I didn't press my luck with T&G's in the grass.
Paul Smith


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