Author Topic: Proctor Jenny (Read 15340 times)

John Witt · « **on:** June 22, 2009, 07:11:22 PM »

I just ordered a Proctor JN4-D2 from the manufacturer. They are supplying these kits on a made to order basis, and they have a small run of them going right now. It's going to make a pretty substantial Ukie, I think, and should look really great with those big flippers. For those who haven't looked lately, Proctor is alive and well in Canby, OR. The model is 7 foot span and about 11 pounds, may be a two-hander. I've wanted one of these since they came out many years ago, and didn't realize the business had been continued after Lou Proctor died.

http://www.proctor-enterprises.com/

I plan to have one of Clancy's RC throttles and electric power, probably with a belt drive 2:1 reduction.

If there is interest, I could do a build thread on this.

John

chuck snyder · « **Reply #1 on:** June 22, 2009, 07:45:16 PM »

John, please do a build thread. Will make a magnificent model. I don't think line pull will be an issue at the speed it should fly.

John Witt · « **Reply #2 on:** June 22, 2009, 08:01:07 PM »

I agree, actually was being a little tongue in cheek. They say three to four weeks delivery from right now, so it will be a little while. Not sure if I can stand waiting, but ahhh, I'm a big boy now.

The Paine Field aviation museum which houses Paul Allen's collection has one. They will be flying it as part of their warbird demos on Aug 8th. Hope I can get to that and shoot lots of pictures and video.

Will keep you posted, film at eleven. Pocketa-pocketa-pocketa-pocketa!!

John

Thomas Wilk · « **Reply #3 on:** June 22, 2009, 08:04:27 PM »

i have about 25 photos - half in color.

tom wilk

tawilk36@cpinternet.com

John Witt · « **Reply #4 on:** June 24, 2009, 07:50:53 PM »

I had Joe at the Proctor plant send the plans early, so I could start looking at them and begin planning the construction approach. They arrived this afternoon and boy, what a stack of paper. There are 5 sheets of mostly full size blueline plans that are densly covered with construction notes. This model is not quite a duplicate of full scale construction, but there are not many compromises. I'm fortunate in that there are two Jenny's in my immediate area. One is at the Museum of Flight at Boeing Field and the other is at Paul Allen's museum at Paine Field, just north of me a few miles. Their published schedule says they will be flying their Jenny on August 8th. Hope to be there with loads of cameras. Both of these planes are JN4-D2s, as I understand.

I have used the approach with complex models to treat each subassembly as a model in its own right. This allows one to keep interest high and carry through each portion with a common level of detail. I'll probably start with the tail feathers, just to get used to the materials and construction methods in this kit and try to pick manageable chunks of airframe to deal with. Fortunatly, the Jenny lends itself to this approach because it assembles in big pieces to go fly it. The outer wing panels are removable for transport as rigged pairs.

There are inevitable compromises and one of the areas for this model will be figuring out how to tie the bellcrank into the structure, yet make it unobtrusive. It looks like it can go underneath the front pilot's seat, at first inspection. One thing is certain, electric power is going to make this plane a lot easier to keep clean. It must be a bear to try to keep the oil out of all the nooks a crevices in a ship like this.

Here are some pictures of the plans set. It will be a while before I have anything more to say, as the balance of the kit will be shipped in a few weeks. I thought it was going to be somewhat on the too big side to look nice flying around on wires, but now it looks just right.

Regards to all,

John

john e. holliday · « **Reply #5 on:** June 25, 2009, 09:48:24 AM »

Boy John, what an under taking. This looks like it is going to be a long building session. Good luck on the construction and detailing. Don't forget to keep us posted. DOC Holliday

chuck snyder · « **Reply #6 on:** June 25, 2009, 10:37:42 AM »

John,
When you plan the bellcrank mount, also give consideration to where you will hold the model for a pull test. On some of the R/C to C/L conversions I have done, I have added some support structure, usually to the left side of the fuselage, solely to survive the pull test.
Chuck

John Witt · « **Reply #7 on:** June 26, 2009, 04:16:57 PM »

That's a good point , Chuck. Can anyone fill me in on how the pull test is typically done these days. I was thinking about some reinforcing to tie the BC support to the upper and lower longerons. Maybe some carbon fiber painted to look like ash and spruce. The reinforcement, as you say, needs to go to where the load is put in, i.e., the gripping places. This plane only has the sticks, very little in the way of sheeted surfaces, though there are the inside walls of the cockpit area.

I find building this kind of stuff a lot of fun, and as fun, you don't want it to be over too fast.

John

chuck snyder · « **Reply #8 on:** June 26, 2009, 07:03:56 PM »

John, here in the mid-west pull tests are usually done by the owner holding the model however he wants, and the scales are attached to the handle. Then the pilot pulls until the official yells "OK."

John Witt · « **Reply #9 on:** July 08, 2009, 06:31:42 PM »

Well some time has passed reading the instructions and looking at the plans, so here are some questions for the group.

1. Covering. This is a 1/6 th scale airplane. What would be a good covering material, since the antique finish Coverite has disappeared. There's silk, of course, but what else is out there.

2. What was the technique used for adhering the fabric to the full scale airplane?. I've only seen one modern airplane covered and the fabric was more or less put on like we do it for models, with pinked tape covering the seams. How was it done in 1916?

3. I plan to use an EPower 46 motor with a 2-1 reduction drive. This will spin a scale 18-4 at about 4500 RM, more or less, which should give about 35 mph flight speed. I'd like to control the speed so I can shoot touch and goes. I was thinking of using Clancy's servo controller, but are there any other suggestions? I'm reluctant to go three wire, plus the Clancy controller offers the potential to have other servos for doing things, like towing and dropping a banner. Does the AMA prohibit using radio control of UC model functions?

4. Any suggestions for maneuvers for added scale points? I hope to work up to a loop, but I think that will be all the acrobatics.

Thanks in advance for the input,

John

Mike Keville · « **Reply #10 on:** July 08, 2009, 07:58:10 PM »

Would be extremely interested in a progress report, with pix, on this one.

John Witt · « **Reply #11 on:** July 08, 2009, 08:13:51 PM »

I plan to do so. The kits are being made up in a small production run (I think just 3-4 kits) that is going on now. I expect the kit in 2 or 3 weeks.

John

chuck snyder · « **Reply #12 on:** July 09, 2009, 06:00:09 AM »

John, I'll try to answer a couple of your questions:

Solartex offers an iron on material in a color close to what you want. Check it out at www.balsausa.com. I have used solartex and like it a lot. It is as easy to use as the old Super Coverite. Sig coverall is the same dacron fabric but without the adhesive. You can buy dress lining material at the local fabric shop which is the same stuff. Attach with Stik-it.

One of my R/C buddies is building a Jenny, I'll ask him about fabric attachment. I suspect it was sewn (stitched)on with a specific pattern and knots.

R/C control is not allowed in C/L competition. But you can send the information pulses from an R/C transmitter through insulated lines. Clancy uses this method. I use a JR radio in the direct servo control mode; works great. I concur with your decision not to use three-line mechanical.

You will want 6 optional flight maneuvers--these are the most popular around here: throttle control, high flight, taxi, touch and go (counts as two) and missed approach. I have seen leaflet drops (or in your case could be messages for Pershing chasing the Mexican bandits). I have seen too many C/L scale models wrecked attempting loops, so I would advise against that. I would also suggest you have a backup maneuver in case taxi does not work well with the narrow gear on the Jenny. Lots of models with narrow gear go up on a wingtip on the upwind side of the circle.

Chuck

John Witt · « **Reply #13 on:** July 09, 2009, 07:51:25 AM »

Chuck, could you post the details of how your JR setup works? I assume you are also coupling to the control lines. I've been out of RC and UC both for awhile so am not current on all the whistles and bells.

Thanks for taking the time to answer questions.

John

chuck snyder · « **Reply #14 on:** July 09, 2009, 01:34:21 PM »

John, direct servo control is a feature on some radio systems that allows a guy to operate his system without broadcasting a radio frequency signal--for example he needs to adjust something and can't get the frequency control pin. It physically consists of a cable with a "phone jack" that plugs into a socket on the transmitter. At the other end of the cable is a plug that plugs into the charge jack on the receiver battery charge socket on the on/off switch harness. There are two conductors: signal and ground. The signal wire will eventually go to the "battery" connection on the receiver. What it does is take the series of pulses that the transmitter encoder develops and connects them directly to the receiver decoder. NO RF signal. Needing two wires works out well for us C/L guys. I use Deans connectors to splice about 55 of 60 feet of control lines into the middle of the DSC cable. I use one insulated C/L wire and one bare one. I found that two insulated wires cause a lot of friction when flying and I get stickly control around neutral. The JR radio works well for me because I fly lots more R/C than C/L. I use it on my R/C models too. I can set the controls so everything is done with my left hand while my right hand works my trusty, ancient, Darwin handle. My models use throttle, flaps, retracts, and bomb drop via the radio. The fancy computer mixing was very helpful for setting up flaps and end points on throttle and bomb drop. I am also sending a PM.
Chuck

John Witt · « **Reply #15 on:** July 11, 2009, 07:53:14 PM »

Turns out there are several threads from folks building Proctor Jennys on RCScalebuilder.com. Great stuff, including people building at a level I will not try to match, however it's very inspirational. I'm really anticipating the arrival of the big box. Worth a look just to drool at the nice airplanes.

John

John Witt · « **Reply #16 on:** July 17, 2009, 04:42:27 PM »

See post in the stunt forum about the power requirement. Joe @ Proctor says shipping in about two weeks.

John

John Witt · « **Reply #17 on:** August 08, 2009, 10:37:09 AM »

Every time I talk to Joe he says, "two weeks". That's getting kind of old.

I'm off in an hour to the Flying Heritage museum to see their Jenny fly today. I'll post some shots this afternoon.

John

John Witt · « **Reply #18 on:** August 08, 2009, 04:46:30 PM »

Here's a few pictures from today. Don't have any good flight shots as I couldn't get close enough. A very smooth running OXX engine in this plane. I'm going to have to go back when they have the plane off the ramp. It was an interesting afternoon with a hangerful of very nice airplanes.

John

Hoss Cain · « **Reply #19 on:** August 08, 2009, 10:21:13 PM »

Quote from: John Witt on July 08, 2009, 06:31:42 PM

Well some time has passed reading the instructions and looking at the plans, so here are some questions for the group.

1. Covering. This is a 1/6 th scale airplane. What would be a good covering material, since the antique finish Coverite has disappeared. There's silk, of course, but what else is out there.

//SNIP//

John

John, super project. For covering and preparing this machine, please check out the Stits Finishing system:

http://www.stitspolyfiber.com/index.html

Nothing else will do it justice.

Best of luck!

john e. holliday · « **Reply #20 on:** August 10, 2009, 10:35:44 AM »

Hope you get your kit soon as I am anxious to see construction photos. DOC Holliday

John Witt · « **Reply #21 on:** August 10, 2009, 06:05:20 PM »

Thanks, guys.

I'm getting pretty anxious to see it too. Hoss, I looked at the Stits site, and I assume you mean the 1.5 oz non-certified cloth.

I'm also looking at the Solartex, which looks to be very similar, except prepainted. Some users comment that the weave is apparent, which would be perfect for the Jenny.

Thanks for the tips, I'll keep you posted, starting with a picture of the box

John Witt · « **Reply #22 on:** August 17, 2009, 07:40:21 PM »

So Joe says the Jenny kit will be ready this Friday. I'm going to the Eugene stunt contest,

so the current plan is to go by Canby, which is more or less on the way and pick it up.

If all goes well, I can start with some pictures of the kit early next week. OBoy, Christmas in August!

John

Hoss Cain · « **Reply #23 on:** August 17, 2009, 09:55:36 PM »

Quote from: John Witt on August 10, 2009, 06:05:20 PM

Thanks, guys.

I'm getting pretty anxious to see it too. Hoss, I looked at the Stits site, and I assume you mean the 1.5 oz non-certified cloth.

I'm also looking at the Solartex, which looks to be very similar, except prepainted. Some users comment that the weave is apparent, which would be perfect for the Jenny.

Thanks for the tips, I'll keep you posted, starting with a picture of the box

OK and best wishes with your choice of finishes.
Here are some pictures. The Eindecker is Stits with a couple coats of their clear to maintain the taut. While I did not build this model, I now own it and am setting it up for some additional trim.
In addition the Robin 80 is covered with World Tex, and some 6 coats of Brodak Clear to maintain the tight.
IIRC it was prepainted solartex that I used to cover fuse and lower wing of the Bipe. Still took some clear to maintain tight.
The Mustang fuse and tail were covered with World Tex over finishing epoxy and painted without any weave showing. Wing is monokote over thinned finishing resin. I have a Viking about ready to fly. Wings are covered with another lighter tex material, name blanking out now, but it too has a fair amount of clear dope to maintain tight.

John Witt · « **Reply #24 on:** August 24, 2009, 05:16:11 PM »

Nice looking fleet of planes, Hoss. That Eindecker is something else, there's a lot of time invested in those "whirlies" on the cowl.

I went down to to Eugene, OR, this past weekend and flew beginner stunt at the Prop Spinners contest (very well done by John Thompson and crew). On the way, we jumped off the Interstate over to Canby, OR and picked up the Jenny kit. Joe gave me the 10 cent tour and it's a very nice plant. A big investment in machinery and tooling to make these kits is required and the place is well organized to make these complex, high quality kits. There's a big new Fleet bipe in the works for the 30's fans with typical scale structure that Proctor is famous for.

I will get some pictures of the kit this week and post them, serious planning for the construction starts right now.

Regards to all,

John

John Witt · « **Reply #25 on:** August 26, 2009, 03:55:36 PM »

OK, So here we go. A couple of pictures of all the goodies in the box. Nice presentation. By picking the kit up at the plant, it didn't get scrambled by the UPS guys, so this is just like it was packed. The scale in the pictures is one foot long. The wheels are not included in the kit--optional extra.

Now to complete the research and planning. I have the Nieto drawings to compare to and plan to get back to the Flying Heritage museum to photograph their Jenny. I have read of some differences in the cockpits and the tail group, so need to resolve those issues.

I plan to order a Turnigy SK 1800 watt motor and 5000 mAh batteries. Assuming 600 watts average power, that translates to about 48 laps of flight at 80% discharge. This is very similar to the motor being used by an RC Jenny at 12 lbs.

john e. holliday · « **Reply #26 on:** August 31, 2009, 08:35:41 AM »

That looks like a builders kit. Also looks like a nightmare to me even tho I love building and not assembling parts. Keep us posted on the build. Have fun, DOC Holliday

Dennis Adamisin · « **Reply #27 on:** August 31, 2009, 05:51:16 PM »

Quote from: john e. holliday on August 31, 2009, 08:35:41 AM

That looks like a builders kit. Also looks like a nightmare to me even tho I love building and not assembling parts. Keep us posted on the build. Have fun, DOC Holliday

I dunno Doc, I have seen some of the Proctor kits, and they are MAGNIFICIENT. However I don't think we will be hearing back form John til maybe 2012???

John Witt · « **Reply #28 on:** August 31, 2009, 08:28:58 PM »

Well, it might take that long. I have to build an electric Impact in there somewhere also. I glued the first pieces together tonight (8/31/09), the fuselage longerons. These are pre-bent spruce pieces that are spliced in the middle like the original. The sides are built one at a time and not over each other like conventional stick model construction. This is because Proctor have bent the horizontal curve into the longerons where they come together at the tail post. This is a rather abrupt curve which would be difficult without soaking and wetting the wood. The degree of pre-fabrication is pretty amazing for such a complex model.

What you have to decide is how much you want to deviate from a "perfect" scale model to one that can be handled and flown. Most all of the kit compromises I have seen so far, I am willing to make, however since this is an electric model, the nose area can be much closer to scale the a glow engine version.

John

John Witt · « **Reply #29 on:** September 01, 2009, 08:00:41 PM »

This evening I was able to get the first fuselage side framed up. This went very well with the larger pieces precut. It is very similar to building a rubber band stick model or, say, a Sig Senorita. All of this is very nice spruce. The side is built over the plans using a set of jig blocks supplied to hold the pre-bent aft fuselage longerons in the correct position. I used cling wrap to avoid sticking to the plans. The building surface is a nice flat piece of 1.5" pink insulation foam.

I've included a picture of a guillotine in my drill press. Just use the chuck to lightly clamp a single edge razor blade and it very cleanly shears off the 1/4 square spruce. I then use a disc sander to touch up the ends for a good fit. My disc sander is in the garage about 20 feet from the work table and it takes about three trips per upright to get the lengths just right. Following the advice in the instructions, I made two of each upright, so all of them are ready for framing up the second side. Maybe tomorrow.

It's amazing how much the French influenced early aviation...all those nice words, longeron, fuselage, guillotine.

John Witt · « **Reply #30 on:** September 05, 2009, 11:19:13 AM »

Both fuselage side were framed up this week. I overcame my nervousness about building two separate sides (not on top of each other) by laying the first side down with the top edge, which is straight in the horizontal plane, against the same edge of the second side, so I could align the vertical members up with each other. I guess I should have taken a picture of that, my explanation isn't that good. At any rate, the sides came together fairly well, with a lot of careful sighting and measuring and use of the try square.

The aluminum wire that is used to simulate all the rigging diagonals in the fuselage are installed after the sides were joined. This is done by drilling a slightly oversize hole at the appropriate angle into the intersections of the frame. I used the right angle head on my Dremel to do this. I still will have to do the last bay with a pin vise cause the Dremel is too big to get in there. Where these wires are visible in the cockpit I used a short length of heat shrink on the wire, which was then painted brass color to simulate the turnbuckles.

The Beck plans suggest painting these wires black, but in all the Jenny pictures I have they are a silvery grey color of steel cable, so I am going to leave them the natural aluminum.

I am always amazed that the flimsy sticks build into a strong structure like this. I think this is actually going to be a reasonably robust airframe.

The motor and batteries are supposed to be delivered by the post office today, so I can start working out the mounting and cooling provisions in the nose area. The seat mounts are also going to support the bell crank, so that will get some work this weekend as well.

It is supposed to rain pretty much all weekend, so looks like I'll get some building done on the old girl.

John

John Witt · « **Reply #31 on:** September 11, 2009, 04:26:53 PM »

Over the long Labor Day weekend I was able to get some work on the old girl.

The landing gear was next in order to properly locate the lower cross members. The airfoil shaped axle fairing and the two lower blocks come pre-assembled. The gear legs are partially shaped and just need some final shaping and finish sanding to get them ready. I inserted the aluminum end fittings in each gear leg and taped and clamped the assembly together. When everything looked lined up, I CA glued the legs one at a time to the end blocks. Once all that was done, I then wicked some thin CA into the slots in the gear legs that held the aluminum end fittings (fuselage end). After everything set up solid, I drilled and pinned the legs per the instructions using the supplied dowel. The following day I removed the whole gear assembly and added glue everywhere that looked shy. Once that was set up, the ends of the dowels were sanded using a combination of the belt sander and hand sanding. This assembly will get more attention later. I couldn't resist putting the axle in and mounting those wire wheels.

Next up was the tail skid assembly. The pivot part was screwed in place on the rear cross members and a brace wire was formed and soldered in place to keep the skid from swiveling. The skid itself is a pre-cut piece that gets the brass reinforcements nailed on with small brass brads. These pieces are also precut and drilled. I clamped one side in place and drilled straight through with a drill that was slightly smaller than the brads. This keeps the wood from splintering. The brads are too long, so they were all cut down to keep them from butting together in the middle of the skid. The tail skid was stuck in place with a toothpick and a rubber band to see how it looked.

Had some fun fitting up the radiator shell and tried a car-modeler trick--Bare Metal foil. The wooden shell was sanded and several coats of Luster Kote primer applied until there was a smooth finish. The gold foil was then applied in pieces working from back edge to the front. Proctor supplies a piece of copper screen to use to simulate the radiator core. I cut this to shape and made a frame of 1/16 dia K&S copper tube which was soldered around the edge of the screen. Proctor also supplied the brass oval part that goes around the prop shaft. The shell was match drilled and tapped to the front fuslage former so it can be easily removed. A coat of clear lacquer keeps everything from tarnishing (I hope).

The bellcrank installation is next, and I am in the middle of planning that. The bellcrank mounting will interfere with the scale furnishings in the forward cockpit, so I am trying to keep that to a minimum. Since the plane will have to pull test 50#, feeding the bellcrank loads into the structure is critical to keep the whole thing from exiting out through the port side.

John

John Witt · « **Reply #32 on:** September 19, 2009, 11:06:15 AM »

Not a lot to report from this week, busy at work and home with other things. I did start on the control system, laying out the design and building the cross bar that pull-pulls the elevator control wires. This cross bar assembly mounts behind the aft seat and was connected to the stick in the real airplane. In this case it will be actuated by the bellcrank pushrod and the connection to the scale stick will just float on the tube. I can't make this a working connection because the front stick interferes with the bell crank.

The pieces are made from K&S brass tube and 1/32 inch thick brass sheet. The sheet parts are cut out with aviation snips and ground to shape with my belt sander. The pictures show the pillow block end bearings being made up and the elevator horns and cross tube.

I have a pair of small machinist's vises that I use for things that are easy to hold. Even very simple fixturing makes it possible to get the parts soldered together with good quality joints and the correct alignment.

Once the bell crank installation is worked out and installed, I can put in the cockpit floor, seats and then begin on the top cowlings. At that point it will start to look more like a Jenny you could take to the dance.

John

john e. holliday · « **Reply #33 on:** September 20, 2009, 11:48:26 AM »

I can see this is a work of art. I do not have that kind of patience. DOC Holliday

John Witt · « **Reply #34 on:** September 20, 2009, 05:02:17 PM »

Thanks, John. Just one bit at a time. You have to find satisfaction in smaller increments, I guess. I find it does take a certain amount of perserverance to keep a long project from getting totally derailed by other things. I have a 1/350 scale BB63 ship model that's going on 5 years now, but it's nearly complete, somewhat derailed by the Jenny, which is somewhat derailed by flying stunt, which is...you get the idea.

John

John Witt · « **Reply #35 on:** September 26, 2009, 07:55:08 PM »

This working for a living is getting in the way of the important stuff. I've resolved to get at least one thing, no matter how small, done every day.

This week, I was able to get the bell crank, pushrod and mounting done and test fit into the framework. The big fun came, however as the last pieces of the control system arrived and I was able to set it all up on the bench and run the motor with full throttle control.

The first picture shows the bellcrank in place. The crank is made of two pieces of .050 circuit board material. It has a center spacer made of nylon and a pivot post I turned from a piece of aluminum rod. A 6-32 screw mounts it to the 1/4 ply mount which is glued to the 1/4 square spruce seat rails. The inside seat rail is reinforced with 3/16 square carbon fiber tube. There will be some reinforcements added to the vertical posts later in the construction after the lower wing fittings are in place. The leadouts will be flex cable, so there are turned nylon ferrules that look like small pulleys at the ends of the bell crank. The carbon pushrod is from a Brodak set. It connects to the crossbar which will later have the scale elevator control cables attached.

The second and third shots show the control layout with the motor at a 700 rpm idle. This is the Clancy Arnold system which encodes a 4-channel pulse width modulated (PWM) signal to the control lines, which is then decoded in the airplane. The decoder then outputs a 1-2 millisecond square wave signal which can be decoded by standard RC servos and the ESC.

In the pictures the motor is idling at 700 rpm. I substituted an audio taper pot (Radio Shack P/N 271-1721) for the linear slide pot included with the system to get a finer control of the low end of the rpm band. The yellow/white wires represent the control lines. The red black wires connect a 9V battery which powers the encoder. The decoder gets its power from the Castle ICE speed control. The green/yellow pair connects the pot to the encoder. The encoder and decoder are encapsulated with a red potting compound, which protects against environmental damage and vibration. Note that there are 4 channels, so I could have three more functions besides throttle.

The last shot is a picture of the 100Amp ICE ESC.

We're having fun now!!

john e. holliday · « **Reply #36 on:** September 27, 2009, 12:59:13 PM »

Getting to the shop and doing a little at a time makes for great strides in building. Even being retired it takes me a while to finish planes. That shot of the bellcrank system is awesome. DOC Holliday

John Witt · « **Reply #37 on:** October 05, 2009, 06:22:08 PM »

A short pause in the Jenny building to assemble a new Randy Smith Vector 40.

John

Clancy Arnold · « **Reply #38 on:** October 05, 2009, 08:10:58 PM »

John
Glad to see that you covered the pins on the extra three channel output cables. No shorts needed or wanted. Looks like a good working setup of my U/Tronics Control system.

Keep up the good work,
Clancy

Bryan Higgins · « **Reply #39 on:** October 10, 2009, 05:58:21 PM »

John

Your Proctor Enterprises Jenny is looking great. I think i'll order a VK Nieuport 17
builders kit after im finished with my Fokker D7.

I wanted to ask you about how does a tailskid aircraft handle take off's and landings
at an event such as the NATS? Or other hard surface flying areas.?

Bryan

John Witt · « **Reply #40 on:** October 12, 2009, 06:09:21 PM »

Bryan,

I've never competed in U/C scale with a tail skid airplane, so I'm not sure what will happen. I do not plan to taxi the airplane, so that should minimize the grinding of the skid on the pavement. I plan on replacing the skid wear strip from time to time, as well. The wear strip on the Proctor kit is brass, which will wear through pretty quickly on paving, I may switch that for a steel strip before I fly the first time. I normally fly from a grass field , so the brass shouldn't be an issue there.

The skid won't give much directional control to the plane, I suspect, but I plan to get the tail up anyway. As far as I know, in real aircraft, the tailskid shoe just got changed as needed. Of course, most fields were grass anyway

The VK Nieuport should be a great airplane. I always wanted to do one of the rotary engine birds. With electric power, you could move motor back and make a long propeller shaft that would go through the dummy engine. If the dummy engine rode on a pair of bearings on the propshaft, the bearing drag should make it rotate, just not at the high RPM of the prop.

Anyway good luck, and post some pictures of your D-VII.

John

Bryan Higgins · « **Reply #41 on:** October 12, 2009, 11:24:56 PM »

Thanks John

That is a cool idea you have there with an electric set up with a bearing on the dummy
engine.
I have been looking at RCSB alot to learn about scale proctor kits and there are many
tail dragers of course ww1 . I think that the tail movement in cl scale flying should be
minimal. I will know for sure when i get mine flying but i dont think there would be
any tail looping, there is just to much friction for that to happen.
Good job on your Jenny Bryan

John Rist · « **Reply #42 on:** October 13, 2009, 02:03:07 AM »

Don't forget that WW I aircraft tend to be tail heavy. So moving the motor back could cause a balance problem. Look for ways to move the battery way forward. My 80" Eindecker had a 1lb of lead in the noise. I like the turning dummey rotary engine but I would make it hollow shafted and run the motor shaft through without touching. I would let the dummey engine windmill. Now you have a long motor shaft unsupporte at the prop end. This is a very intersting design project. Not simple for sure.

John Witt · « **Reply #43 on:** October 13, 2009, 02:01:53 PM »

I'm not sure what would cause the dummy rotary to turn if it was left to windmill, unless maybe some small vanes could be attached to the cylinders so the airstream could move it. I was sort of thinking about a tube through the crankcase with a ball bearing at each end, with the inner races on the prop shaft. Maybe one of those nice Williams brothers rotary models could be the dummy engine. Just day dreaming, y'know.

Any airplane needs to be balanced correctly, especially WWI types with those little tails. You'd certainly need to address that in the design work.

The Jenny has a 1.25 lb battery for the initial nose weight, but we'll see how much more it takes after more of it is built. Jennies are know for being good fliers in the RC world, so should be possible for U/C as well. That's true for the Nieuports too, but correct balance is critically important.

John

Bryan Higgins · « **Reply #44 on:** October 14, 2009, 08:45:57 PM »

Hi John

Yeah i see what you mean. Been looking at all the rc planes at RCSB and that is always
talked about. Proctor Enterprises under kit manufactures at rcsb has great ww1 builds
and tail weight is a major concern.

I have always liked ww1 war planes ever sense i was a kid. Know seeing so many
modeled i cant wait to start on my own control line version. I ordered 1/6 scale
Fokker D7 plans from Arizona Models. The engine will be a RCV91-CD 4stroke.
I am real excited the build will probably take 13 months. I have been researching
how to apply scale details and you sure are doing a great job on your Jenny.

John Witt · « **Reply #45 on:** November 07, 2009, 06:15:04 PM »

Okay, back to working on the Jenny. I've been building an e-powered Vector 40, which is now in the color trim phase, so lots of time to do other stuff while the paint dries.

This afternoon I built the lower wing mounting hardware, which consists of 4 .030 thick aluminum strips which are mounted in slots in the fuselage uprights. The lower wings eventually will be pinned to these brackets.

I also did some careful measuring and comparison with the plans and it appears that the Proctor-supplied front cabane struts are too short by about 1/8 inch. This means the upper wing would have the wrong incidence. It looks as though it's possible to re-drill the struts and still use them, but I think I will make some new ones rather than risk having the mounting screws pull out. So it's two steps forward and one back, but better now than later.

The next steps will involve putting in the cockpit flooring and dummy controls, all the stuff in the bottom that will be hard to get to later.

More pictures soon.

John

John Rist · « **Reply #46 on:** November 09, 2009, 01:47:00 PM »

Back to rotating dummey engine. How about an out-runner brushless motor and mount the dummey engine to the case? Biggest problem would be rotating mass and balance. Lets face it. The original WW I rotary engines were a dog because of excessive rotating mass.

John Witt · « **Reply #47 on:** November 16, 2009, 04:19:57 PM »

So the winter weather has set in Seattle and it's back to some serious building. Here are some update photos showing the lower wing attachments and some new cockpit detail. The cockpit details are not included in the kit, so all of that is scratch built, primarily of brass and aluminum tubing, styrene and plywood. I'm trying to get all the stuff down in the bottom built so that the upper stuff (seats up to cowlings) can be added without having to reach over it. So far what's in there are the rudder bars and their pivots and the for-aft cables that link the bars.

I also made the outer covering of the engine cowl so I could start figuring out how to mount the servo encoder, battery, ESC and the safety plug. The plug will be behind an openable panel in the side engine cowl.

I was hoping to be able to add more extensive engine detail than the kit supplies, but alas, it appears the battery is in the way no matter what I do.

The turtledeck is glued to the fuselage sides if built with the kit parts, but it is relatively easy to trim the formers and add additional stripwood to simulate the removable assembly as on the original Jenny.

John

John Witt · « **Reply #48 on:** November 23, 2009, 07:30:02 PM »

So here's the current state of things. The control pieces that go in the cockpit bottom were built up and installed on top of the floor boards. These things are made of sheet styrene and brass. The control sticks are dowels that I sanded to shape while spinning in my drill press.

Next was the installation of the motor and the lite-ply structure that holds the battery. The ICE 100A ESC is mounted to the side with servo tape and there is a spot on the outside wall for the decoder and its wiring. Also on the outside will be the controls enable switch and the safety plug. I could include a charge plug, but I fret over the possible hazard of losing the plane to a battery fire, so may leave that out and remove the battery for charging. Also the bottom skin of 1/32 ply was added to the fuse. This skin will be finished out to represent the aluminum sheet on the real plane.

The next chore, and it really was a chore, was building the three aluminum and plywood cowlings. These are cut from a supplied sheet of fairly hard temper .010 thick aluminum sheet and three pre-cut 1/32 ply skins. The plywood skins are soaked in hot water then wrapped around a 4 inch diameter plastic bottle, taped down with masking tape and then microwaved to steam them to shape. I wrapped the tape around sticky side out to avoid permanently gluing it to the skins. Before the skins were steamed, I used them as patterns to cut the cowls out of the aluminum sheet, allowing a bit extra for final trim.

After some test fitting, the ply skins were positioned on the airplane and then the aluminum laminated to the ply with slow CA. I covered the fuselage structure with saran wrap to avoid gluing the skin to the structure. In the picture, the cowls are trimmed to shape, but still need to have the mounting holes, windscreen holes, strut holes, etc., cut in. The front cowl has internal bulkheads to position it securely on the nose and allow mounting the dummy engine parts.

John Witt · « **Reply #49 on:** December 07, 2009, 07:29:54 PM »

Another update. I'm trying hard to keep to my goal of doing at least one little thing each and as a result, there is some discernable progress. I have been making up some sub assemblies: the three cowlings which are nearly done and several bits for the controls. Last weekend I made up the four cables that connect the elevator horns with the elevators and with that was able to permanently install the horn assembly and its pushrod. Tonight the leadouts were assembled and the bell crank installed, hopefully for the last time. The biggest news is that I covered the port side of the furselage! The leadout holes were cut in the Solartex and now I can pull on the leadouts and watch the horns move and fantasize about takeoffs and landings.

I'll have some more pictures in a few days.

Regards to all,

John W