We discussed Dick's issue at our club meeting.  There was quiet a bit of difference of opinion about how far an Event Direstor should go to enforce this rule.

My opinion is that an official should ALWAYS do everything in his power to enforce all the rules all the time.

To my surprize, there were some (licenced Cd's) who took the attitude of letting things slide and only waiting for a contestant to file a protest.

Some felt that if a contestant signs a sworn statement that he built a model, the ED doesn't dare (effectively) call him a liar.  Furthermore, the rules don't empower the ED to do so.

On the local level, we pretty much know who can build what, so if a low grade builder shows up with a masterpiece model of looks fishy.  But if a traveler shows up, who knows?

What do you think?

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Maybe a good future idea would be to add "evidence of construction" to the documentation book.  Such as in-process photos at the contestant's home.

Doc,

Thanks for the input.

In this particular issue it's not a question of mere "bending".  Either the contestant built the model or somebody else did.   This is quite bit different from combat & stunt.

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I'm of the opinion that when the ED collects the entry fee, suspects a violation, lets the guy fly anyway, and leaves it to the "losers" to protest, he's guilty of shirking his responsibility.

It's not just the static points.  With no model there would be no flying points.

Paul,

To your Reply #2: In courts of law, Judges don't have arrest power. That's as it should be. Even in cases of contempt of court, a judge refers any arrest involved to sworn officers of the peace - cops, in other words. ...and the judge is the complaining citizen who reports the act and lodges the charges...

That is how it should be. Witch trials in New England a few hundred years back were examples of combining cop/judge/jury/executioner. That's NOT our way of doing things.

The person offended against is the proper one to raise charges. Only sworn police officers, trained to recognize criminal behavior against the community they are sworn to "protect, preserve and defend," have legal authority to arrest offenders in cases where the cop is not the direct 'victim' of the action.

So, in this thread, whether judges or other officials suspect, or know for sure, that evading the principles of the BOM happened, they are not the ones who need to initiate action. The officials are not "wronged" by the cheater; the other contestants are. It comes down to the basic question, the thing that makes con games so hard to prosecute: IS there an offense if the victim can't be bothered to report it to those who CAN act on the complaint?

Beyond the matter of arbitrarily declaring an entry ineligible, judges and officials can only act in response to the other competitors' requests. If these victims can't be bothered to request a ruling based on their certain knowledge of cheating, I'd find it hard to accept a "hanging Judge" jumping in and pre-empting the protest process. Which is worse? - Clear indication of bias on the part of the judges?...Or competitors who choose to keep silent about evident twisting of the principles and details of the rules?

A "competitor" willing to cheat, as we're discussing here, would probably also be willing to smear the event, the officials, the other competitors, and our hobby itself in as public a way as possible out of spite.  ...For being - not caught unless there is clear proof - slandered/libelled/dissed/ disgraced by unproven allegations from "envious and inferior" competitors.

Given all this, I consider cheating unacceptable. On evidence presented to the officials in a protest, an entry can be ruled ineligible to compete. Depending on the rules involved, AMA's (or other rules body's) protest procedures should be followed. That protects the person protested against from unfair and unfounded rulings, as well as protecting the other competitors from being beaten by violations of the rules. A formal protest (if the rules allow for it) is messy, but much better than NOT protesting. Bad-mouthing the event and officials for not doing what can only be done in answer to a protest by another competitor is worse yet. Behind-the-back, whispering attacks are not good for any event's success...

It's a common fallicy to compare sports judging to courts of law. 

The difference is simple.  To excute, fine or imprison somebody, you need due process.

When you decide to play baseball, you agree to let the umpire call balls and strikes with no recourse.  No due process, the judge's decision is final.

We have many contestants who want to be nice guys, gentlemen, and sportsmen.  These men feel that it is unbecoming to protest.

We have some officials who want to maximize entries, be nice guys, and avoid confrontation.  They don't enforce the rules, but rather let things slide and wait for the contestants to protest.

These two facts leave a big crack for the person who wants to exploit them.

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The concept of "challenging the officials" can be seen on any basketball or hockey game.  It's easy to see how people can watch these games and get the idea that, to win, you cheat as much as the officials let you.

"It's a common fallacy to compare sports judging to courts of law.

The difference is simple.  To execute, fine or imprison somebody, you need due process.

When you decide to play baseball, you agree to let the umpire call balls and strikes with no recourse.  No due process, the judge's decision is final."

Hi Paul,

Yes, and no.  An umpire's *judgment call* cannot be protested.  Any *rule violation* can.  The Head of the Umpire crew can be consulted on any call during a baseball game.  If it deals with a rule, it can be overturned by the Head Umpire.  If it is not to your liking, you can announce that you are playing the remainder of the game *under protest* and have an official ruling passed by the governing body.  So, it is very similar to a *Court system*.  Same applies ot football.  After spending 30 plus pretty successful years as a high school coach, I can tell you that you CAN file protests and obtain rulings, just like appealing to a "higher court".

Doc,
     You are correct. That is why I have not posted the letter yet. I have had the need to sleep on this for several nights. I did talk with Greg Hahn at AMA HQ and he had a lot of additional cheating problems in scale. It seems that scale is the event where most of the cheating happens. Why I don't know.
   For everyones information I am not filing a protest now. I just feel that exposing the cheaters will do the most good to stop the cheating.
   I only found out about the current cheater at VSC, talking with several people. You can rest assured I will file a protest at this years nats if I find the aircraft in question there. Or should I say both aircraft.

C/L has fun scale. Like team scale in R/C.

Some can build, but not fly.  Some can fly, but not build.  Very, very few can do both with elan.

EXACTLY right !!!!    You need to do BOTH to compete legally in model contests.

Sort of like batting and fielding in baseball (except for another Invention of the Devil, the DH).

We have a procedure in modelling that would take care of problems as far as breaking rules.  It is called "protests".  The hang up is most people wait until way after an incident to file a protest.  It must be filed immediately with all the pertintent details.  Been thru it as a CD and event director on both local and national level.  If people don't file a protest at the time it's their fault.  Of course you must be a contestant in that event to file a protest.  Like the year a Junior almost won the NATS with a borrowed airplane.  Another Junior had to file the protest, not an open or senior contestant.  My take,  DOC Holliday

Unfortunately the AMA has killed the protest with the $50.00 fee they imposed at the 05 NATS in CLPA. Many do not have that to loose so they will keep their mouth shut. Oh yeah where does the $50.00 go? Who gets paid?

I already feel the entry fee is way too much. What does this go for? The site? Which we already own with our dues and share cropping revenues.To pay for the trophy's? Which there aren't many.

I don't get paid for anything I do in this hobby. The NATS costs me around $1000.00 and up per trip. Should I not expect that If I should protest this would be included with the entry fee? What possible work could be involved?

It's principle to me. This protest fee is nonsense.

I hear you Sparky, but the people that work at the AMA HQ are not volunteers, but paid workers.  They get paid, and it has to be a competitve amount, or no one will work there.  Plus some benefits.

Hi Ty,

I don't believe the protest fee has anything to do with salaries........  I agree with Sparky.   The entry is too high and the protest fee is ridiculous.  I am beginning to believe the conspiracy theory that the AMA just might want to get rid of us *poor* C/L fliers.  Maybe they feel that we fly C/L instead of R/C because of the expense.   And we just don't belong in their country club.  Raising the fees might be, in their eyes, a detriment to us.  While the cost of EVERYTHING has risen dramatically, it is harder and harder to spend a week in Indiana for the NATS.

Bill

Provisions are in the rulebook to submit a protest at a contest if an individual feels that there is some action or decision that is improper.  The protest procedures are in the rulebook for very good reasons.  If an individual feels that something improper has occurred, that individual has the right to file a protest to correct what is believed to be improper.  At the Nationals, I understand that there is a fee to be submitted with the protest.  If the protest is upheld, the fee is returned.  If the protest is not upheld, the fee is kept by the AMA.  It makes sense that there are provision for protests.  It also makes sense that there are provisions that would discourage any frivolous protests that could be submitted only to disrupt the conduct of a contest as was threatened by a certain contingent several years ago.  It seems we reap what we sow.

Keith

(edit for typos)

Hi Keith,

I would never argue compensation for the Officials of the event in this day and time.  Expenses are very high for anyone attending a meet far from home which eats up over a week of time away from home, job, etc..

I can tell you this, I would take several of the jobs at AMA for a lot less money than is being paid now!

As for judges, I commend them!  I refuse to judge at local contests.  That's just me.  I am expected to do so, so I guess many of my contest days are over.  If I have to judge to fly and feel welcome, I will take up something else, something that I can enjoy without having to spend a large portion of my time away from home doing something I detest.

I know there are MANY who will say, "You are wrong, you should be HAPPY to give back to the event by judging".  Well that is the person's opinion.  I didn't get into flying CLPA and building models to judge.  I abhor doing it, detest doing it, did I say I HATE DOING IT??  And I won't......

There are many of my friends that I wouldn't mind judging, since they know I will do the best I can, but it is the select few who would case me to probably spend a night in jail....... at my age, I know what I will and won't do, and what will cause me to go off.  If it is possibly going to cause a problem, I ain't gonna do it!

Bill Little

I don't know how this got off course, but, maybe it should be taken up in another forum.  DOC Holliday

Bill,
   Today I send an e mail to the AMA technical Director Greg Hahn with copies to the President and exec. I have received an answer that this specific problem is also common in free flight as well as R/C scale. It is going to be discussed in 2 weeks. I hope we can get a definition of builder in at least scale.
   I must say one thing. I don't want any an advantage, all I want is for everyone to follow the rules. The outcome then will be fair to all. I do think now that the offending person thought he was legal at the time. I hope the AMA can inform all of us what is correct.

Bill,
   I was a rookie too.