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Author Topic: Just a thought . . .  (Read 2449 times)

Offline Mike Keville

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Just a thought . . .
« on: November 06, 2012, 06:37:36 PM »
Does anyone remember when CL Scale entries numbered in the dozens?  Does anyone remember WHY?

Because there was then no need of throttles, retracts and other miscellaneous features.  All that was required was that the model flew for a minimum of ten laps.

Yes, it was a "Beauty" event - and was very popular.  Entries were numerous.

Anyone in favor of "Vintage Scale"?

Just askin' . . .
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Offline Chris McMillin

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Re: Just a thought . . .
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2012, 07:05:09 PM »
I recall some twins at VSC that met the call.
Chris...
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Offline Trostle

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Re: Just a thought . . .
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2012, 09:33:56 PM »
Quote from: Mike Keville on November 06, 2012, 06:37:36 PM
Does anyone remember when CL Scale entries numbered in the dozens?  Does anyone remember WHY?

Because there was then no need of throttles, retracts and other miscellaneous features.  All that was required was that the model flew for a minimum of ten laps.

Yes, it was a "Beauty" event - and was very popular.  Entries were numerous.

Anyone in favor of "Vintage Scale"?

Just askin' . . .

I know!  How about having a 1/2A multi-engine profile scale event with no flight options?

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Offline Jim Fruit

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Re: Just a thought . . .
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2012, 09:45:18 PM »
I would definitely be in favor of a "Vintage Scale", Mike. And yes, I do remember the large amount of entries we had when all we were required to do was fly ten laps. Maybe we have shot ourselves in the foot with the legislating of all kinds of rules and regulations. I sat in on a meeting with all of the scale competitors at this year's Nats. A lot of the discussion centered around how to improve participation. Bringing back the old event that we all enjoyed just might help with that a lot.

Jim Fruit
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Offline roger

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Re: Just a thought . . .
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2012, 08:30:28 AM »
i agree with all of that H^^
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Offline Clancy Arnold

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Re: Just a thought . . .
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2012, 03:55:26 PM »
"Vintage Scale" could get 100 points on the ground, just like Sport Scale, but only the 10 points, one point for each of the 10 laps completed in the air.  This would require only a small fuel tank as a typical flight would only last about one minute.  Another advantage to the contestant is that the 10 laps would start at the point of liftoff, no calling of maneuvers required.  A throttle would not be required and the model may be restrained by your pitman until you are ready to start your takeoff roll.

This would be the opposite of "Fun Scale" where you can only earn 10 points on the ground and 100 points in the air.

Interesting idea!
Clancy
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Offline chuck snyder

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Re: Just a thought . . .
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2012, 05:03:42 PM »
Please build and fly whatever you want. However I have a different opinion as to why the event was much more popular "in the old days." At that point in time control line was the most capable technology affordable to the masses. R/C was unreliable, expensive, and required an FCC license. C/L provides options that FF doesn't in terms of controllable flight, and competition in areas beyond looks and duration. So C/L was highly popular. Today R/C is a more capable technology that is inexpensively available to the masses. And it is widely more popular.
Chuck
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Offline Jim Fruit

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Re: Just a thought . . .
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2012, 06:25:50 PM »
Quote from: Clancy Arnold on November 07, 2012, 03:55:26 PM
"Vintage Scale" could get 100 points on the ground, just like Sport Scale, but only the 10 points, one point for each of the 10 laps completed in the air.  This would require only a small fuel tank as a typical flight would only last about one minute.  Another advantage to the contestant is that the 10 laps would start at the point of liftoff, no calling of maneuvers required.  A throttle would not be required and the model may be restrained by your pitman until you are ready to start your takeoff roll.

This would be the opposite of "Fun Scale" where you can only earn 10 points on the ground and 100 points in the air.

Interesting idea!
Clancy


Clancy:

It would be the opposite of "Fun Scale", yes, but I believe it would be more popular because of the flight simplicity. "Fun Scale" currently complies with the flight and maneuver complexities that are listed in the rule book. So the very thing (rules) that seems to have reduced the scale interest still applies to "Fun Scale". The proposed "Vintage Scale" would probably appeal to more because it would be similar to building a stunt ship with attention to detail. Just look at the posts in this site and you can see how many are interested in that sort of  (stunt) building. In my opinion, I envision that there is room for "Fun Scale" and "Vintage Scale" at the same time. Just look at the 1/2A profile scale that is catching on all around the country (even at this year's Nats). Simple model rules, simple flight rules, and they will beat down your door. Just don't limit it to 1/2A, however.

Jim Fruit
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Offline Dennis Saydak

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Re: Just a thought . . .
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2012, 09:30:33 AM »
Quote from: Mike Keville on November 06, 2012, 06:37:36 PM
Does anyone remember when CL Scale entries numbered in the dozens?  Does anyone remember WHY?

Because there was then no need of throttles, retracts and other miscellaneous features.  All that was required was that the model flew for a minimum of ten laps.

Yes, it was a "Beauty" event - and was very popular.  Entries were numerous.

Anyone in favor of "Vintage Scale"?

Just askin' . . .

Mike I don't know what era you are referring to but many (most?) of the vintage scale models I recall had throttle control. Perhaps it wasn't required but it was a common feature. Even Don Karkhuff's beautiful  Eindecker 111 featured a Fox .35 with an exhaust throttle on it. I have the plan for that model and I've always wanted to build it. I'd sure like to see this type of event return.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2012, 10:32:44 AM by Dennis Saydak »
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Offline Mike Keville

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Re: Just a thought . . .
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2012, 02:29:59 PM »
Quote from: Dennis Saydak on November 08, 2012, 09:30:33 AM
Mike I don't know what era you are referring to . . .

Early to mid 1950s.  While some were throttled (2-speed RC engines), most were not.  Most of them flew until the tank ran dry prior to landing.  I should add that this was what I observed in the South Jersey/Philly area.  Things may have been different elsewhere.
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Offline dankar

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Re: Just a thought . . .
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2012, 04:52:52 PM »
Mikey still have them thar gears turning. Old time scale where you need a sacale model than can do 10 laps. Sounds good. No RC assist teathered rc /UC model. I like it. Have small ME 109 for .19 that would be cool just for  scale. Sure Cholla Choppers could fit it in with say a fun fly ?? No profile stuff, real full body planes. Any size/ and power.
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Offline Will Hinton

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Re: Just a thought . . .
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2012, 06:42:34 PM »
In the mid 50's, 56 and 57 as near as I can recall, Gary Wegmiller of Marietta, Ohio won the KOI senior scale with a B-24 the first of those years and then with a B-25 the following year.
I saw those being prepared for flight at a local contest as Gary installed new batteries to operate the bomb bay doors and rotating turret.  They were, of course, multi-line controls, but I don't remember if they were throttle controlled or not.  I had to leave before he flew.
Steve Wooley and Gary were good buddies and Steve won senior stunt those same years, the first year with a Fierce Arrow and the next year with the original "pond-slime green" Argus.  Hey he called it that, I didn't. 
Does anyone here remember those planes?  Throttles or not?  Anyone know the whereabouts of Gary?
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Just a thought . . .
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2012, 08:13:23 PM »
A local guy by the name of Clayton(Gene) Dunham, flew twin engine scale models.  No throttles or operating funtions.  These were the old Eureka kits.   The C-47 was the big winner as it took first almost every time.  He had to kick off his shoes to have traction on the grass circles we had to fly on.  My first attempt was the Sterling Waco Bipe with a Johnson .35 and Bramco throttle.  At least it slowed down enough that I did high speed taxi.  No J-Roberts bellcrank either.  It was a spring loaded bellcrank activated by a third line that was smaller than the flying lnes.
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Offline Chris McMillin

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Re: Just a thought . . .
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2012, 02:49:08 AM »
To me the era of childhood fascination is the mid to late 60's. Top Flite made the P-51D Mustang Sharpshooter designed by Jerry Worth, as well the P-47N and P-40F all Flite Form construction. Sterling stuff was available in the C series with Monocoupe, Mr. Mulligan, Polish fighter, Pete, Corsair, Guardian, etc. JRoberts made the series of 40 inch Carrier ship that were pretty scale, Corsair, Mauler, etc. Sig had the Spitfire, Bearcat, T-6, etc.
Hobby Shops still had Berkeley kits on the shelves in many places, Shoestring, Minnow, Swee' Pea, etc. Maybe a Capitol kit could be found, Dad always talked of the Capitol Staggerwing, and the plethora of mail order Japanese Scale kits in the 40 to 45 inch size were available.
Many of these were in the 19 to 35 size engine requirement size, so economical and small enough not to overwhelm the 10 to 12 year old which there were always a dozen or so at the Nats flying Jr. Scale. I think a McCoy 19 RC was 5 bucks and JRoberts bellcranks 1.50 and the handle was 6 or 7. (When I got mine in 1972 the handle was 12 bucks and the bellcrank 2.95.) Most kids had enough car washing and paper route money to buy this stuff, and that's why it was sold and one saw these models flying.
Anyway, I like the idea of a simple Scale. No deductions for lack of retracts, no requirement for anything but a take off and landing plus the requisite laps, lots of points for pretty paint schemes, or cool weathered ones. Sounds fun to me. But I love a death defying loop the loop!
Chris...     
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Offline Jim Fruit

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Re: Just a thought . . .
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2012, 08:03:41 AM »
Chris:

I agree with you about the joy of flying scale in the 60's, but my gosh, what a memory you have. I remember all of the kits that you mention but I had not thought about any of them since back then. I would like to add one more, the Berkeley AJ-1 Savage (no wait, that was in the 50's). My parents bought me the kit for Christmas. It turned out very well and I powered it with two 1/2A diesels. In spite of that, it flew well and was great fun. It has been lost to history. One of my hopes is to build a larger scale, more legitimate AJ-1 in honor of my Mom and Dad. That is if I have enough time remaining.

Jim Fruit
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Offline Dennis Saydak

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Re: Just a thought . . .
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2012, 02:24:15 PM »
Quote from: Will Hinton on November 08, 2012, 06:42:34 PM
Steve Wooley and Gary were good buddies and Steve won senior stunt those same years, the first year with a Fierce Arrow

I've been trying to find a color picture of Wooley's Fierce Arrow for years. I do have the B&W Wooley FA picture from one of the old magazines. Somebody out there must have one?????
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Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Just a thought . . .
« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2012, 05:00:56 PM »
I don't recall "the good old days" being all that good.  About three or four guys spent two of three years building museum quality models that barely flew.  They announced static points first, then the winner tired to fly.  If the top three flew ten laps, that was the end of it.  If somebody screwed up, then fourth place tried to "steal" third.  After while, only three guys entered.

Hence, the current 100/100 sport scale and the 10/100 Fun scale.  As I recall the old "AMA scale" scoring system was something like 300/20 in favor of static.  Give it a  whorl if you want.  It might work now.
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Offline Jim Fruit

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Re: Just a thought . . .
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2012, 06:13:45 PM »
Paul:

I think it would work now because of the variety of other scale events that are available today. The event that you are describing was "Precision Scale" and it was the only control line scale event in the rule book. I agree that it eventually was only for a select few builders and was too restrictive and, consequently, almost killed the participation. This was why sport scale came along. It helped to keep the event alive. I believe what the guys are reminiscing about is the rather simplistic flying requirements. Some of what keeps some participants away is the progression of the complexity of today's event. We just passed rules that will allow us to use R/C systems for crying out loud. What just happened to good old control line?

Jim Fruit
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Offline Clancy Arnold

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Re: Just a thought . . .
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2012, 06:22:50 PM »
Paul
You are right that AMA Precision Scale was biased toward the static but not quite that bad.

I just reviewed my 1986 -1987 Rule Book.  It was 225 Flight and 450 Static.
Clancy
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Offline Mike Keville

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Re: Just a thought . . .
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2012, 08:47:39 PM »
Quote from: Paul Smith on November 09, 2012, 05:00:56 PM
I don't recall "the good old days" being all that good.  About three or four guys spent two of three years building museum quality models that barely flew.

Perhaps that was the way it was in Michigan, but not so in other areas.  So. Jersey/NYC area (think 'Mirror Meet') saw numerous CL Scale entries, as did the Nats (remember the 'Scale cage'?)  Dozens of entries.

Then everything went R/C while the CL Scale event began to be 'dumbed-down'.  First, 'Stand-Off', and now we have something called 'Fun Scale' which, as I understand it, is open to even ARFs.

<sigh>...I miss the days of craftsmanship, but am getting too @#$% old to do anything about it.
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Offline Will Hinton

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Re: Just a thought . . .
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2012, 08:56:34 PM »
Dennis, get hold of the Adamisins' as Big Art might have pictures of Steve and the FA.  Wynn Paul might also have some.  In fact, I'd like a picture of the pond slime green Argus, too.  maybe between us we can locate these.

On the older scale ships, I built the Berkely SBC-3 Helldiver in the 50's and powered it with a Fox 25/Bramco throttle set up.  Never got to fly it as it was stolen out of my locker at the hobby shop in Quonset Point while I was at sea.  The thing I really hate about that was the fact that I had purchased the 25 from Steve Wooley when he worked at the local hobby shop in Marietta, Ohio.  I'd sure like to have that one for my collection.
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Offline Chris McMillin

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Re: Just a thought . . .
« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2012, 02:16:52 AM »
Typical Nats entries were numerous. 60's to early 70's Juniors were very numerous, Sig and Top Flite kits were very popular and Cathy Bernstine always had something bigger and more interesting, like her On-Mark B-26.
There was a lot more flying in Scale, than a certain recollection above, in Southern Cal and the Nats. And certainly Arizona where there was always a group of military flyers. Noel Hess and his son had unbelievable models and they always flew them, or attempted to. I wonder what happened to them and their beautiful models? The great thing was some of the diversity, one guy had a super looking Air Force camo LTV A-7 Corsair II, the radome was a spinner like roland Baltes Mig 21. Dynajets were popular but I mostly remember an F-11 Tiger in '66, a F-102 in "68 and a really nice F-4 in'71 at the Nats. A guy tried a twin Dyna jet XB-70 at sepulveda Basin in the late 60's. Me-110, P-35, Gee Bee R-1, etc, were seen, a super Neville Duke P-40, Fokker DR-1, D-VII, Camel, SE-5a at a contest at Redi-Spud. And then there were the FF Scale jobs...
I can fix up something to participate.
Chris...    
« Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 06:08:43 PM by Chris McMillin »
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Just a thought . . .
« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2012, 08:23:52 AM »
I can remember in the 70's when there was a scale meet, at least a half dozen planes would show up.   Our problem was finding judges.
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Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Just a thought . . .
« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2012, 10:14:03 AM »
Quote from: Clancy Arnold on November 09, 2012, 06:22:50 PM
Paul
You are right that AMA Precision Scale was biased toward the static but not quite that bad.

I just reviewed my 1986 -1987 Rule Book.  It was 225 Flight and 450 Static.
Clancy

I was referring to the 1960's.  It was just plain "scale" with only one event to chose from (like carrier, stunt, and combat).  It was virtually ALL static with only a token ten lap flyability demonstation.   

Entry numbers at the old Navy Nats are rather irrelevant.  There was just a low basic entry fee and no additional event fees.  So a lot of guys checked every event that they might possibly fly or just plain checked every event.  There were a lot of token flights in events where the guy wouldn't have paid $5 to fly.

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Offline Allen Goff

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Re: Just a thought . . .
« Reply #24 on: November 11, 2012, 06:34:57 AM »
"The good old days"................ I have been flying scale for 10 years now and I enjoy it as much as C/L aerobatics. (since 1969)
Everyone in model aviation is talking about shrinking numbers. Except RC helicopter. Its the times. Some people in C/L scale are trying to do something about the numbers. I remember the 1966-67 Nats at Glennview Naval air station, and I don't remember "dozens of scale entries".
Here are some recent facts.

Nats entries (aircraft) according to AMA records.
2002-30
2003-29
2004-28
2005-56 (the Bauer reunion)
2006-39
2007-42
2008-36
2009-43
2010-41
2011-34
2012-43

We will continue to draw more with people dedicated to working towards that end.
Just my "thoughts".

Blessings
Allen
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Offline wwwarbird

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Re: Just a thought . . .
« Reply #25 on: November 12, 2012, 04:19:06 PM »
 A scale class with no flight options would be very interesting to me. Two classes would be ideal, profile and full-fuse. I'd suggest allowing throttles if desired, but have no requirements of it's use. If a model did have throttle, simply leave it's usage up to the pilot and don't give it any point value either way.

 If there was a class such as this, there is a good chance I'd make my first ever trip to the NATS. y1
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Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: Just a thought . . .
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2012, 09:19:47 AM »
Whenever this discussion surfaces I can't help but think about some sort of Walter Musciano retrospective. Walter published a bunch of designs that fit exactly what is being talked about. He used throttles but avoided everything else. There should be something that would appeal to almost everyone.
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Offline Allen Goff

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Re: Just a thought . . .
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2012, 01:28:54 PM »
I'd like to point out something everyone is over looking.
You don't need a multi function airplane. Jack Sheeks shared with me many years ago, "if your equipment works you'll make the top three".  We don't need more classes. Buy an ARF R/C kit, put a good Saito or OS on it, a JR bellcrank and fly Fun Scale. Ask Richard Schneider, or Charlie Bauer they are flying that same setup with great success. Not patting myself on the back, but I have placed 1st. or 2nd every year since I started flying scale at the "Nats". In F4B, Fun, and Sport, with a three line system.

1/2A scale at the Brodak flyin,  the FCM contest, and the Nats. No options, just static and 10 laps. Simple enough?

So now whats your excuse, don't just set here reading what everyone is writing, get in your model room and get to building. Or you might find someone ready to sell something they are done competing with (for fun scale). Come fly with us.

Blessings
Allen
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Offline Mike Lauerman

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Re: Just a thought . . .
« Reply #28 on: November 19, 2012, 10:32:52 AM »
I never thought I'd read such a proposal! (concept) If 'Vintage Scale' could become a reality, it would be almost miraculous, at least here in the House of Lauerman!
For about 45 years, I have been slowly revisiting a few 'scale' projects...take them out of their 'packings', do a little, then back in their stowage, due to 'life' priorities.
We 'sport flew' every weekend, I went thru everything C-class profile, seemed like a new ship every 2-3 weeks! (constant building, flying weekday afternoons after completing appointment work schedules, then flying Saturday and Sunday.

But I still worked on my old scale planes.
I had some airplanes given me by friends:
 
1979, Roland Pasquel gave me an old built-and-nicely finished 36" Stinson Reliant that was damaged...left wing run over by a jeep (!) Many wing ribs, very scalelike. I researched every plans source I knew...John Pond said it looked like Berkeley, but more detailed.  I was searching EBay 4 years ago, and found a Stinson Reliant plan for sale. It was not a reprint, just a gent selling his late father's 'old plans'...There it was, by "Scalemaster". Woo hoo! An old kit plan, early '50s? Anyone know? Now I can finish it!

1967, a co-worker, Doug Yates, gave me an old 'Gas Motor Plane' his late father had built. A Musciano Staggerwing Beech, (Comet kit?) Chris McMillan restored an identical one for his Dad, mine is white with gold & black trim lines at the fuselage parting line...wings have to be redone, but when I called Walter Musciano he sent me the original plan.

1965, Tim Viera gave me an old plane his Dad had started...fuse was done, all planked, metal wheel pants...I worked very slowly, unsure of what it was.
Finally nailed it, Berkeley Pitts! (looking back now, kinda obvious...)
Chris McMillen found the metal cowling/nose for me, and graciously sent them. More of 'life's priorities' reared their ugly heads, and progress was halted.

I have more...but these are kind of unusual subjects... Vintage Scale!

You fellows can see why I am excited. This would make me feel reborn....another chance!   

Thanks, Uncle Mikey.
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Offline Bill Little

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Re: Just a thought . . .
« Reply #29 on: November 19, 2012, 01:30:02 PM »
Uncle Mikey,

I am not THAT old, but all the "Scale" models I saw in my youth were without throttles.  Mostly Berkeley kits and Musciano plans built.  I have a model that is over 75% complete and has been that way for 40 years.  It is the P-51 from the triple plans set by Walt.  It is not 100% scale and it has no throttle.  I would love to have an event where I could fly it.  I should probably finish and fly it anyway, but having an event would be sooo nice.  10 laps mandatory for flight to count sounds great to me!

"Coach"
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Offline Mike Keville

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Re: Just a thought . . .
« Reply #30 on: November 19, 2012, 08:58:38 PM »
Berkeley, Sterling (with replaced wood, of course), Musciano, Dulaitis designs.....no throttles, no flight options.  Judged on 3-views, colors/markings, then fly a minimum of 10 laps.

Best I ever saw was a 'Miniature Aircraft' 41" span F2G Corsair in Race 57 markings, followed closely by a Cleveland Models 43" span Stinson Station Wagon.  This was 1950.  There were at least a dozen entries....including a Monogram Speedee-Bilt 'Long Midget' powered by a K&B Infant .020! -- plus several Sterling Waco Cabins and SE-5s which had recently been introduced to the market.

No, I am not suggesting I'd be willing to host such an event (done enough of that!) but if anyone out there agrees that we need a Vintage Scale event, now is the time to say so!
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Offline Dennis Adamisin

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Re: Just a thought . . .
« Reply #31 on: November 23, 2012, 06:56:28 AM »
I remember when we first started in competition, there was a gentleman who flew a DYNAJET powered XF-92 delta.  It appeared to be a pretty dependable set-up, I think the airplane came from a Berkeley kit?  He could fly it off grass too.  He'd take-off, fly about 6'-10' high,  very smoothly and not especially fast, for about 10-12 powered laps then it would glide 1-2 laps after shutdown.  Used to see him at Rouge Park other times sport flying this and other scale dynajets. 

Paul S: you might remember him too?

Airplane was built well but not a museum piece, static scores were prbably mediocre.  One speed, no operating features and EVERYONE on the field knew when he was flying..!

 
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Offline Trostle

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Re: Just a thought . . .
« Reply #32 on: November 23, 2012, 09:53:30 AM »
Quote from: Dennis Adamisin on November 23, 2012, 06:56:28 AM
I remember when we first started in competition, there was a gentleman who flew a DYNAJET powered XF-92 delta.  

Hi Dennis,

That was probably Frank Lashek.  His construction article for the XF-92 was in the 54 Air Trails Annual.  The plans were drawn by Sam Calhoun Smith, 1" = 1'. with the typical Flair the S.C. Smith did with plans of that era.  Lashek did at least one other scale Dynajet model of the Navy version of the F-86.  (I would have to do a bit of looking to find that one.)  At that time, these things really made an impression on a teenage kid living on a farm in Kansas.  Lashek also did a CL scale B-24 in a two-month installment in a later Air Trails Hobbies for Young Men, but I would have to do some looking for that one too.)

Berkeley had a number of scale jet kits, but they were comparitively small, several around 3/4" = 1' scale.  They were powered by .049's as ducted fans.  Those kits had an aluminum impeller, built light for FF and could be built for CL.  The CL versions showed the old spiral type monoline units on the plans.  With the small electric ducted fans, these could be turned into very nice appearing scale models, and would be practical in the context of scale models being discussed in this thread.  The 3" diameter fans will fit in these things.  The Berkeley F-4D Skyray and the F-7U Crusader on on my bucket list. 

Keith
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Offline Bill Little

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Re: Just a thought . . .
« Reply #33 on: November 23, 2012, 10:08:27 AM »
Quote from: Mike Keville on November 19, 2012, 08:58:38 PM
Berkeley, Sterling (with replaced wood, of course), Musciano, Dulaitis designs.....no throttles, no flight options.  Judged on 3-views, colors/markings, then fly a minimum of 10 laps.

Best I ever saw was a 'Miniature Aircraft' 41" span F2G Corsair in Race 57 markings, followed closely by a Cleveland Models 43" span Stinson Station Wagon.  This was 1950.  There were at least a dozen entries....including a Monogram Speedee-Bilt 'Long Midget' powered by a K&B Infant .020! -- plus several Sterling Waco Cabins and SE-5s which had recently been introduced to the market.

No, I am not suggesting I'd be willing to host such an event (done enough of that!) but if anyone out there agrees that we need a Vintage Scale event, now is the time to say so!


Uncle Mikey,

Do you think this should be an AMA event or more like OTS, with a set of rules that you listed and see where it goes?

Thanks,
"Coach"
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Offline Mike Keville

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Re: Just a thought . . .
« Reply #34 on: November 23, 2012, 10:41:13 AM »
Quote from: Bill Little on November 23, 2012, 10:08:27 AM
Uncle Mikey,

Do you think this should be an AMA event . . .

Thanks,
"Coach"

Definitely NOT.
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Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Just a thought . . .
« Reply #35 on: November 23, 2012, 11:55:10 AM »
Quote from: Dennis Adamisin on November 23, 2012, 06:56:28 AM
I remember when we first started in competition, there was a gentleman who flew a DYNAJET powered XF-92 delta.  It appeared to be a pretty dependable set-up, I think the airplane came from a Berkeley kit?  He could fly it off grass too.  He'd take-off, fly about 6'-10' high,  very smoothly and not especially fast, for about 10-12 powered laps then it would glide 1-2 laps after shutdown.  Used to see him at Rouge Park other times sport flying this and other scale dynajets. 
Paul Smith: you might remember him too?

Airplane was built well but not a museum piece, static scores were prbably mediocre.  One speed, no operating features and EVERYONE on the field knew when he was flying..!

How could I forget?  I did every function except pilot; hold, pump, battery man, and clear the pit equipment in 2.5 seconds.  I don't recall the owner's name but he could get it in the air every time.  It took about two laps to build up flying speed. To me, it wasn't all that loud.


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Offline Mike Keville

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Re: Just a thought . . .
« Reply #36 on: November 23, 2012, 05:54:07 PM »
All I'm saying is: two-line Scale models with no flight options and a 10-lap qualifying flight may (repeat: MAY) help spark a return to the time when people would come out with their nicely built & finished models.  All you need to do is look at issues of 1950s/1960s M.A.N. and F.M. and note the number of good-looking CL Scale entries.

As for Static judging, how about what we use here in Tucson for our 1cc multi-engine profile scale meets (somewhat watered-down here)?  That is:

Accuracy of shapes/outlines: 0-40
Color/finish/markings/details: 0-40
Quality of flight (realistic takeoff, level flight & landing): 0-20

Maximum possible Static score: 100

Then, in order to receive those points, model must fly a minimum of ten laps under power.

If no one is interested, so be it.
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Offline Bill Little

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Re: Just a thought . . .
« Reply #37 on: November 23, 2012, 06:19:47 PM »
Quote from: Mike Keville on November 23, 2012, 10:41:13 AM
Definitely NOT.


Uncle Mikey,

I felt that you would say that. ;D  I agree that it should be looked upon much like how OTS came into being.  I guess it would be a stretch to use "Old Time Scale".............  ;D

Coach
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Just a thought . . .
« Reply #38 on: November 24, 2012, 08:58:30 AM »
Hey, I remember back in the day, that when a scale model showed up,  all flying stopped when the scale model was ready to fly.  I would build another control line scale if only throttle was allowed.   Well I do have one in the rafters that is only throttle controlled that flew in one contest in St Louis years ago.  Could not get the engine to quit when it was supposed to.  May dig it down and fly  it again as it was fun doing touch and goes plus taxi.
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Offline chuck snyder

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Re: Just a thought . . .
« Reply #39 on: December 02, 2012, 04:17:51 PM »
Just what you guys been looking for. Berkeley B-17 http://www.rcuniverse.com/market/item.cfm?itemId=885493
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Offline Joshua Harel

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Re: Just a thought . . .
« Reply #40 on: December 09, 2012, 03:00:56 PM »
"All that was required was that the model flew for a minimum of ten laps.

Yes, it was a "Beauty" event - and was very popular.  Entries were numerous.

Anyone in favor of "Vintage Scale"?"


Absolutely! Vintage Scale will be just what we all need, relaxation and fun - an outlet to showcase one's creativity. Excessive regulations in this case are a killer, why not just let the builders decide what scale features they want to add?

Just my 2c

Joshua
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Offline Dennis Saydak

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Re: Just a thought . . .
« Reply #41 on: December 09, 2012, 04:52:35 PM »
Quote from: Trostle on November 23, 2012, 09:53:30 AM
Hi Dennis,

That was probably Frank Lashek.  His construction article for the XF-92 was in the 54 Air Trails Annual.  The plans were drawn by Sam Calhoun Smith, 1" = 1'. with the typical Flair the S.C. Smith did with plans of that era.  Lashek did at least one other scale Dynajet model of the Navy version of the F-86.  (I would have to do a bit of looking to find that one.)  At that time, these things really made an impression on a teenage kid living on a farm in Kansas.  Lashek also did a CL scale B-24 in a two-month installment in a later Air Trails Hobbies for Young Men, but I would have to do some looking for that one too.)

Keith

Here's a link to pictures of both models on the Barton forum. The builder did an excellent job. I have a Dynajet and a Tiger jet, so I'm thinking ............... http://controlline.org.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=7873
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Offline Mike Keville

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Re: Just a thought . . .
« Reply #42 on: December 09, 2012, 05:15:58 PM »
Well, there certainly seems to be some interest in a possible "Vintage Scale" (or "Beauty") event.  If anyone is interested in perhaps hosting a trial run, it may be time for me to un-box that Berkeley/Sig AT-6 Texan kit.
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Offline Chris McMillin

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Re: Just a thought . . .
« Reply #43 on: December 11, 2012, 03:46:33 AM »
That was always a cool one, Roland Baltes had one he flew in Carrier and it flew pretty well.
Chris...
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Offline Jim Kraft

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Re: Just a thought . . .
« Reply #44 on: January 04, 2013, 06:21:21 PM »
Then I could build that Stearman with the Orwick 64 and have some fun. I think old time scale would be great. There are many great old scale planes that you just can't add a lot of functions to. My Bucker Jungmeister has no guns, flaps, drop bombs, or sliding canopy. Another great idea Mikey. I might even try this just for fun.
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Offline Bill Little

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Re: Just a thought . . .
« Reply #45 on: January 08, 2013, 01:54:19 PM »
Quote from: chuck snyder on December 02, 2012, 04:17:51 PM
Just what you guys been looking for. Berkeley B-17 http://www.rcuniverse.com/market/item.cfm?itemId=885493

Hi Chuck!

Don't laugh but I got that kit.  It was one of my "Holy Grails" of C/L models.  I never found one on evilbay cheap enough for me to get one from there.  I had wanted this kit since around 1960!  This one is in exceptionally good shape.  Everything is there, nothing broken.  Now, do I build it? (I really want to!)

Bill
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Offline Chris McMillin

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Re: Just a thought . . .
« Reply #46 on: January 08, 2013, 11:46:05 PM »
I see Gordan's twin too. Was that Gladiator a Hess creation, too? I used to see them at many 60's and 70's contests in California and Arizona.
Chris...
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Offline Chris McMillin

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Re: Just a thought . . .
« Reply #47 on: January 09, 2013, 11:57:10 AM »
Thanks Ty,
I know the Hess's built a lot of models. One I especially liked was the Seversky P-35 covered in foil. He wasn't very successful at flying them in my recollection of watching him, the P-35 went into a bad PIO as if it were too sensitive and tail heavy and he tore the scale retracting gear off in the hard landing. His son flew a beautiful Me-110 with retracts at the same contest ('68 Southwest Regionals) and did OK. Same detail oriented construction, but more of a Dave Platt-style wartime finishing technique.
Noel had a nice Sterling Stearman at Sepulveda in '69 or '70, prop flew off in the middle of a nice, smooth flight and he went straight in cracking the finish and covering. I asked him what happened and he told me that the aircraft manual said to lower the nose for airspeed in case of engine failure!
I always wondered what happened to them after the early 70's.
Chris... 
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