Author Topic: info question... (Read 1278 times)

Terry Bolin · « **on:** September 14, 2010, 08:26:01 AM »

I am entering "Fun Scale" for the first time in St. Louis this month with a profile Hellcat. What besides a 3-view drawing should I put in the info pack I present to the Judges to inspect?
Thanks for the help...............Terry

john e. holliday · « **Reply #1 on:** September 14, 2010, 09:06:46 AM »

Terry, now don't take this the wrong way, but, go to the AMA site and read the rules.

john vlna · « **Reply #2 on:** September 14, 2010, 10:16:56 AM »

Terry
you need a three view and a color reference for maximum points. I often fly a Skyraider in Fun scale and I use a Color 3 view I found with a couple of pictures of the actual airplane modeled. The model itself is an old stock Midwest profile kit and I normally get about 8 points out of 10.

John Rist · « **Reply #3 on:** September 14, 2010, 02:11:41 PM »

Quote from: Terry Bolin on September 14, 2010, 08:26:01 AM

I am entering "Fun Scale" for the first time in St. Louis this month with a profile Hellcat. What besides a 3-view drawing should I put in the info pack I present to the Judges to inspect?
Thanks for the help...............Terry

I have been to the St. Louis the last two years. Had a great time both trips. The Pear Tree inn is right across the street from the flying field. Good price and very nice. It's part of the Dury hotels chain.

By the way St. Louis doesn't have fun scale persay. In the profile category they have two classes - Military and Non Military. I believe the Military gets the most entries. The event is flown per AMA Rule Book event 521. These rules are the same as 509 CL Sport Scale except the Model shall be a profile style ship and does not have to have retracts or a pilot. Be aware that there is the builder/flyer of the model rule. You must have built the model. Do you have the contest flyer sent out by the St. Louis folks? If not email me and I will email you a copy.

Don't know if I will make it this year but I would like to. Great hosts and a fun contest.

Terry Bolin · « **Reply #4 on:** September 14, 2010, 08:08:16 PM »

John, I hope things work out so that you can make it after all. I mis-worded the event. I actually am flying a profile military entry. (sorry) I did got to the AMA site and printed off the entire Scale rules.... Talk about hard to sort through. I found it hard to find specific to what I was wanting to look up ..... but oh well. That's why I posted here. Thanks for the info.... See ya all there.. I'll be the newbe! Lost as a goose. Terry

John Rist · « **Reply #5 on:** September 15, 2010, 08:19:30 PM »

To answer you original question - 8 pages single sided of 8 1/2 X 11. Your 3 view drawing can be up to 3 pages and count as one.

What I have for my Extra 300S is an 3 ring binder with a clear front cover pocket. I have a picture of my airplane on the front cover. I have limited my inside pages to 8 although I could have more because my 3 view is 3 pages and could count as 1. Page 1 is a data sheet that describes the model. It includes such information as scale of the model, what kit was used to build the model, weight of model, motor used, and line diameter and length. I also have a brief description of the on board electronics. Page 2,3,&4, are the 3 pages of the 3 view drawings. Three view come from Bob's Scale documenation. Pages 5,6,7,&8 are 4 pages of color photos. The photos also came from Bob's Scale documenation. I scanned in the 8 photos I wanted to use and printed 2 5X7 photos per page. By the way my 3-view drawings are bigger than 8 1/2 X 11 but I was able to trim and fold them so that they fit in the 3 ring binder. They can be unfolded and viewed withought removing them from the book.

I like the 3 ring binder because it makes it east for the judges to turn the pages.

Terry Bolin · « **Reply #6 on:** September 16, 2010, 09:06:44 PM »

John, Thank you so much for the info. I used your note as a guide line for my packet. Very helpful!
Should I print off my own flight agenda or do they have something at the events already?
(Taxi, level, climb..ect.) Thanks agian! I am truely looking forward to this event. Terry

John Rist · « **Reply #7 on:** September 17, 2010, 12:26:31 AM »

Quote from: Terry Bolin on September 16, 2010, 09:06:44 PM

John, Thank you so much for the info. I used your note as a guide line for my packet. Very helpful!
Should I print off my own flight agenda or do they have something at the events already?
(Taxi, level, climb..ect.) Thanks agian! I am truely looking forward to this event. Terry

There are 10 maneuvers. 4 mandatory and 6 optional. If you have a throttle a typical flight will be as follows:
1: (mandatory) Takeoff. 2: (mandatory) 10 airborn laps. 3: Option 1 Throttle. 4: Option 2 high flight. 5 & 6: Option 3 & 4 Touch & Go. 7: Option 5 Missed Approach. 8: Option 6 Taxi. 9: (mandatory) Landing and #10 the judges award a realism in flight.

They will have judging score sheets at the contest. The Mandatory items will be on the sheet. You will fill in the Optional maneuvers at the contest. I have smoke and I use it in place of high flight. At the Nats it was required to announce your maneuvers. I am not sure if St Louis will have this requirement. You should put two laps between each maneuver to give the judges time to write down the score. Also you can have a helper in the pilot circle to help you keep track of what to do next. For the most part this is not necessary but I have seen it done.

chuck snyder · « **Reply #8 on:** September 17, 2010, 05:21:27 AM »

Terry, climb is not a acceptable maneuver unless combined with dives into a "lazy eight." Also taxi has to be done last after the landing.

John Rist · « **Reply #9 on:** September 17, 2010, 06:07:53 AM »

Quote from: chuck snyder on September 17, 2010, 05:21:27 AM

Terry, climb is not a acceptable maneuver unless combined with dives into a "lazy eight." Also taxi has to be done last after the landing.

This is true. The 1 through 10 order is the order they appear on the score sheet - not necessarily the order flown. Items 1, 2, 9, and 10 are the 4 manidotory and are preprinted on the form. In truth I try and list the options in the order I fly them. I always list Throttle and Taxi last (the last two options on the score sheet). The judges score these two along with landing. When you land the ship must come to a full stop with the motor running. You then perform the taxi maneuver which is one lap of controlled taxi back to stopped point of the landing. You then kill the engine to finish the Throttle option. By the way section titled CONTROL LINE SCALE FLIGHT JUDGING GUIDE in the 2009 -2010 rules describes all of the most common menuvers. As it states special manuvers such as the smoke option I use should be explaned to the judge. I tell them what I plan to do as I hand them the score sheet.

Terry Bolin · « **Reply #10 on:** September 17, 2010, 08:02:23 AM »

John, #3 is listed as "Throttle" Does that mean to lower the RPM for a lap?
Also, Lazy 8 was mentioned in one of the replys, Would that be a leagal manuever for a Hellcat?
I am putting together the picture packet today. Thanks again for the good help!
Terry

John Rist · « **Reply #11 on:** September 17, 2010, 08:57:45 AM »

As I understand it THROTTLE is not performed persay. It is understood that if you demistrate complete throttle controll during take off, Touch and GO, and Landing/Taxi that this qualifies as the throttle maneuver. Just remember you must stop the engine at the end of the flight (via handle control) to get maximum points. Also your engine must idle well enough for the airplane to come to a stop. At the Nats I heard people announce when they have finished cutting power "ENGINE OFF - END OF THROTTLE - END OF FLIGHT - THANK YOU." Their will be a pilots meeting before the contest begins. At this time ask questions - The judges will tell you what the expect and or perfer.

PS I fly a really big ship with a really big motor (Saito 120S). Most of my flying is at less than full power. By the way do you use 3-line throttle or electronic throttle.

chuck snyder · « **Reply #12 on:** September 17, 2010, 11:03:08 AM »

Terry, the lazy 8 is legal for a Hellcat. However---I have only ever seen one done close to correct. You must do two "climbs" and two "dives" in one lap. Most guys stretch this out more than a lap, and those who come close to getting it done don't climb very high. And ideally you would throttle back during the "dive."

John Rist · « **Reply #13 on:** September 17, 2010, 02:35:51 PM »

Quote from: chuck snyder on September 17, 2010, 11:03:08 AM

Terry, the lazy 8 is legal for a Hellcat. However---I have only ever seen one done close to correct. You must do two "climbs" and two "dives" in one lap. Most guys stretch this out more than a lap, and those who come close to getting it done don't climb very high. And ideally you would throttle back during the "dive."

Now I am confused?

What is a lazy 8. I take it that it is not a stretched out horizontal 8. Like an inside loop back to back with an outside loop.

chuck snyder · « **Reply #14 on:** September 17, 2010, 05:24:08 PM »

Lazy 8 is described in the FAI rules

Clancy Arnold · « **Reply #15 on:** September 17, 2010, 06:38:39 PM »

John

The basic difference between the PAMPA figure 8 and the Lazy 8 is instead of it being two tangent circles the lazy 8 has an X intersection.

I have Emailed you the page out of the FAI Sporting Code.
Clancy

Will Hinton · « **Reply #16 on:** September 17, 2010, 10:46:12 PM »

The AMA lazy eight is as Chuck described it, there is no inverted section, it is to copy the maneuver used in pilot training to exhibit the cross-control of a ship. It requires the climb and dive as Chuck described it. The eight using the x intersection is not a lazy eight as shown in the rule books, it is just a figure eight. If you tell me, as a judge, that you are going to do a lazy eight, and then do the figure eight, I could score you a zero if I intended to go totally by the rule book. (I don't do that, but it COULD happen if the judges are strict.)
Look at the FAI rules, letter I for the figure eight and letter K for the lazy eight. The AMA rules allow the FAI eights to be used. I know, I was challenged on it this summer and had to change the score I had given the pilot.
To quote another post, get the rule book and read it, that's the best way to understand the events.
Will

Clancy Arnold · « **Reply #17 on:** September 18, 2010, 08:07:47 AM »

Will
Thanks for the correction. As Chuck said "Read the rule book (Sporting Code)."

Here are the two pages of the FAI Sporting Code in question.
Clancy

John Rist · « **Reply #18 on:** September 18, 2010, 08:34:10 AM »

Clancy beat me to the punch. I was just going to post the lazy 8 diagram from the FAI rules. It is indeed two back to back climes and dives as you go around one lap.

Now the AMA rules disallow a clime and dive as an maneuver however they state that any maneuver performed by the real aircraft is usable. The lazy 8 is well defined in the FAI rules making it a known maneuver that can be judged agents a set of standards. So based on this I would think it is valid choice for most any aircraft. By the way if I were to use it I probably would carry a copy of the FAI diagram with me to the contest. Presented to the judges would eliminate confusion and hard feelings.

john e. holliday · « **Reply #19 on:** September 19, 2010, 01:16:41 PM »

Looks nothing like an 8, but, who is going to argue with the FAI powers!

John Rist · « **Reply #20 on:** September 19, 2010, 07:58:09 PM »

Quote from: john e. holliday on September 19, 2010, 01:16:41 PM

Looks nothing like an 8, but, who is going to argue with the FAI powers!

I agree - a better name would be rollercoaster.

Or maybe over hill over dale or ------

Paul Smith · « **Reply #21 on:** September 20, 2010, 11:24:46 AM »

It would be nice if they would leave "LANDING" off the score sheet next time it's reprinted. Then the contestant could pencil it in in the correct sequence, generally,

Landing,
Taxi Lap,'
Engine Shutoff (throttle operation).

John Witt · « **Reply #22 on:** September 20, 2010, 01:03:16 PM »

I wasn't aware of this one, guess I need to read the FAI rules. This looks like sort of a combination of a chandelle and cuban eight, without the half rolls (rolls being espcially hard to do). I do this with my Jenny all the time and it's a good exercise in learning to manage the throttle.

It looks like you want the high points to have the airplane running into the wind and down wind on the other side, so that you are pulling out of the dive with the plane crosswind (greatest speed).

So, Clancy, is this a valid maneuver for AMA scale if you write it into your schedule?

John Witt

Clancy Arnold · « **Reply #23 on:** September 20, 2010, 03:39:11 PM »

John
See the current AMA rules page SC-7 paragraph 10.2 attached.

I would think the Climb and Dive maneuver identified is the Beginner AMA Stunt "Climb and Dive" which each require 15 feet of vertical flight. Remember this maneuver is titled "Lazy Eight." Also go back to Will Hinton's comment. Will is an instructor pilot and has owned a flying school.

I do not remember any Rules Change Proposal being submitted to change this section of the rules.
Clancy

Terry Bolin · « **Reply #24 on:** September 22, 2010, 08:52:59 AM »

Well guys, thanks for all the great info.. I took everyones' advice and made up a folder last night. With your info, I think I have what I need. Scale looks like it will be alot of fun and a nice second event to enter between stunt rounds. I did print off and read the Scale info from the AMA site and it is becomming more clear each time I go over it. Thanks again! you guys cleared up alot of things for a newby! Terry

Clancy Arnold · « **Reply #25 on:** September 22, 2010, 04:35:03 PM »

Terry
Good luck and good (Trophy) Hunting!

Remember that the AMA rules you downloaded are Official until Jan. 1, 2011.

There are a significant number of Rules Change Proposals in process that will affect CL Scale contests after Jan. 1, 2011.

Besides the Rules Change Proposals the Scale Section of the AMA Rules were proof read and many typos were noted. Mike Gretz, Scale Contest Board Chairman, has promised to get the rules into a readable condition.

Clancy

Chris McMillin · « **Reply #26 on:** September 26, 2010, 12:53:52 PM »

Hi Guys,
A lazy eight in full scale airplanes is done to promote better knowledge and skill of control coordination. The Lazy Eight part is the design scribed by the nose through the windshield as the airplane climbs, rolls to it's greatest bank at the height of the climb to roll wings level at the lowest portion and then repeat on the other side. There is no bank angle beyond 45 to 60 degrees and no pitch above or below about 20 degrees. Since rolling is difficult to achieve in C/L, the pitch portion may by the part the FAI rules describe.
Chris...

john e. holliday · « **Reply #27 on:** September 28, 2010, 07:24:41 PM »

So how did you do in St Louis Terry?

L0U CRANE · « **Reply #28 on:** October 10, 2010, 03:48:35 PM »

I'm mostly Stunt-interested, and would like to suggest that a CL Stunt "Lazy Eight" has - for a very long time - been done thisaway:

From level, low, upright flight, the model passes the downwind point and begins an Inside Loop.

When that loop is about 3/4 complete, the model is diving about vertically. Reverse control to begin the Outside Loop.

This Outside Loop is completed when the model returns to that "intersection", the point where controls were reversed from inside to outside.

If only doing a single Lazy Eight, reverse controls back to inside at that "intersection", and complete the missing quarter of the Inside Loop.

Keep on going level, if you're doing just one, or fly through this sequence again, and again, if you want... (with a decent sport/stunt model, Lazy Eights are fun ...and kind of addictive...)

Reference to the wind direction is to remind that flying CL 'stunt' maneuvers can be affected by wind, and splitting the Lazy Eight around downwind is safest in that regard.

Just FYI and reminder: The current, "modern" Eights (AMA, FAI, Horizontal Eights, anyway) are entered by a complete Inside Loop+1/4 first, before reaching due downwind, and reversing control as the model reaches vertical, climbing, after completing the entry Inside. Exit is off the top of the final Outside.

John Rist · « **Reply #29 on:** October 10, 2010, 06:10:18 PM »

Quote from: L0U CRANE on October 10, 2010, 03:48:35 PM

I'm mostly Stunt-interested, and would like to suggest that a CL Stunt "Lazy Eight" has - for a very long time - been done thisaway:

From level, low, upright flight, the model passes the downwind point and begins an Inside Loop.

When that loop is about 3/4 complete, the model is diving about vertically. Reverse control to begin the Outside Loop.

This Outside Loop is completed when the model returns to that "intersection", the point where controls were reversed from inside to outside.

If only doing a single Lazy Eight, reverse controls back to inside at that "intersection", and complete the missing quarter of the Inside Loop.

Keep on going level, if you're doing just one, or fly through this sequence again, and again, if you want... (with a decent sport/stunt model, Lazy Eights are fun ...and kind of addictive...)

Reference to the wind direction is to remind that flying CL 'stunt' maneuvers can be affected by wind, and splitting the Lazy Eight around downwind is safest in that regard.

Just FYI and reminder: The current, "modern" Eights (AMA, FAI, Horizontal Eights, anyway) are entered by a complete Inside Loop+1/4 first, before reaching due downwind, and reversing control as the model reaches vertical, climbing, after completing the entry Inside. Exit is off the top of the final Outside.

Once again for a proper scale Lazy Eight see FIA diagram above. Of course you can perform any maneuver you want in scale provided you describe it to the judges ahead of time. But the judges have to agree that it is approved for the aircraft presented. I use smoke as a maneuver for my Extra 300S. I describe it as 3 laps of smoke with aircraft climbing and diving. Easy maneuver to describe, Extra 300S all have smoke, and it scores well. If a maneuver is in the rule book I suggest one should go by the rule book. The judges will!