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Author Topic: F4B rule doubt (FAI)  (Read 944 times)

Offline fred cesquim

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F4B rule doubt (FAI)
« on: July 04, 2023, 05:20:58 PM »
we had our last brazilian Nats and had 2 doubt on judging:

the FAI rules 2023 states :
6.2C.3. Take-off:
The model aircraft should stand still on the ground with the engine(s) running without being held
All engines must be operating for full marks. If the model aircraft is touched after the word” NOW”
has been called the manoeuvre will score zero
The model aircraft should then accelerate to a realistic speed and lift smoothly from the ground,
climb at an angle consistent with the subject aircraft and level off at Normal Flight Level. The
manoeuvre may, depending on the subject aircraft, take more than one lap to finish.

first doubt: if the model dosenīt have any throttle control, obviously this routine is impossible, in this case, should the take off be zero? same apply to landing as they states we shpuld land on throttle control.

second doubt:

on the flight schedule they have

1 Take-off 14
2 5 Laps of Straight and Level Flight 8
3
Option 1:
12
4
Option 2:
12
5
Option 3:
12
6
Option 4:
12
7 Landing 14

in this case we have 4 optional demonstrations. How should we score notes if one pilot only do 2 and the other do 3 maneuvers?

we donīt have a linf tradition of scale competition in Brazil, so we are trying to follow the FAI book the best possible


Offline Paul Smith

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Re: F4B rule doubt (FAI)
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2023, 09:43:24 PM »
In almost all CL scale events you need effective throttle control to get competative marks.  There are rare exceptions such as 1/2A and a local "old time" scale event.  But in general, throttle control is the key element in flying scale.

Back when I first entered The Brodak I used a none-throttle model just to participate.  I got 55 points out of a possible 100.  The next year the same plane with a throttle got 94. 

In AMA or FAI you can still enter if you can't do the required number of options, but you will not score well.
Paul Smith

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: F4B rule doubt (FAI)
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2023, 10:50:03 PM »
At least in AMA scale, if you leave out an option you get a zero score for it.  That's generally penalty enough.

But -- and I just checked this.  There's no reason to leave any options out.  There's four options in an F4B flight, and there's four options that any plane at all should be able to do (high flight, lazy 8, touch & go and overshoot).  No flaps are required, and the only aerobatics is being able to fly above 45 degrees for a lap or two.  If you can fly stunt, and if your plane isn't a total slug (or a scale model of an X-3 Stiletto) then there's the wingover and the inside loop, which are both appropriate for light planes.

(And if you are flying an X-3 you'll have retracts and flaps, so there).

So if you're modeling some pioneer aircraft or some light plane with fixed gear and no flaps you -- potentially -- don't have to lose any points.  Granted, doing a touch & go isn't going to wow the judges in quite the same way as a bomb drop or demonstrating one engine out, so to get a really high score you'd have to be perfect to win -- but you can still do it, and compete.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline fred cesquim

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Re: F4B rule doubt (FAI)
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2023, 04:08:14 AM »
In almost all CL scale events you need effective throttle control to get competative marks.  There are rare exceptions such as 1/2A and a local "old time" scale event.  But in general, throttle control is the key element in flying scale.

Back when I first entered The Brodak I used a none-throttle model just to participate.  I got 55 points out of a possible 100.  The next year the same plane with a throttle got 94. 

In AMA or FAI you can still enter if you can't do the required number of options, but you will not score well.

i am aweare of that, but still my doubt is: how we score a take off of unthrottled models? only 50% of the total K factor? i am asking because as seems obvious to use throttle, some of competitors donīt use them here ( and i canīt discourage the few contestants to enter competition)
do the taxi count as optional maneuver or is it part of the take off / landing pattern?

Offline fred cesquim

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Re: F4B rule doubt (FAI)
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2023, 04:10:51 AM »
At least in AMA scale, if you leave out an option you get a zero score for it.  That's generally penalty enough.

But -- and I just checked this.  There's no reason to leave any options out.  There's four options in an F4B flight, and there's four options that any plane at all should be able to do (high flight, lazy 8, touch & go and overshoot).  No flaps are required, and the only aerobatics is being able to fly above 45 degrees for a lap or two.  If you can fly stunt, and if your plane isn't a total slug (or a scale model of an X-3 Stiletto) then there's the wingover and the inside loop, which are both appropriate for light planes.

(And if you are flying an X-3 you'll have retracts and flaps, so there).

So if you're modeling some pioneer aircraft or some light plane with fixed gear and no flaps you -- potentially -- don't have to lose any points.  Granted, doing a touch & go isn't going to wow the judges in quite the same way as a bomb drop or demonstrating one engine out, so to get a really high score you'd have to be perfect to win -- but you can still do it, and compete.

i agree, itīs fairly easy to come up with the optional maneuvers on any plane, but if he mistake, miss or leave off one of them , we then must zero the note. as the rules says "optional" i was mislead to take it for non mandatory, but this optional means "choose any you can do but you must perform any 4 optionals". correct?

Offline Pete Bauer

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Re: F4B rule doubt (FAI)
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2023, 07:39:41 AM »
Just for everyone's reference, Fred's question is about FAI F4B rules, not AMA.  Here is a link to the FAI rules - https://www.fai.org/sites/default/files/sc4_vol_f4_scale_23.pdf.

Fred - as many of the comments stated, competing with an aircraft without throttle control is very challenging.  The F4B rules penalize this very heavily.
- Takeoff would be scored zero because the model would need to be held by a person.  Section 6.2C.3. states 3. If held or touched by anyone during the manoeuvre, the score is zero.
- Landing would be downgraded because the engine would be stopped.  Section 6.2C.6. lists an error 9. Engine(s) stops before the landing manoeuvre is finished.

Section 6.2.7 describes the Optional Demonstrations.  There is a list of optional demonstrations to choose from.  If a pilot only chooses three optional demonstrations, then the fourth is scored zero.  There are some very simple optional demonstrations that most models can achieve, including high flight, and lazy eight.

So while you can enter a model without throttle control, it is impossible to achieve decent flight scores without using a throttle.  Note that throttle control is much easier now since 2.4 GHz radio control equipment is allowed for secondary control functions (see section 6.2.2.d).  In the US, the majority of models at the Nats use 2.4 GHz radio to control throttle (and it is the only way to control with electric motors).

Let me know if you have any other questions. 

Offline Pete Bauer

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Re: F4B rule doubt (FAI)
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2023, 07:45:12 AM »
Sorry, I missed answering one of your questions.

In F4B, a taxi is REQUIRED prior to takeoff per 6.2C.2. 

There is an Optional Demonstration taxi manoeuvre listed in 6.2C.5.Q.  This would take place after landing.

Offline katana

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Re: F4B rule doubt (FAI)
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2023, 11:40:58 AM »
Just for everyone's reference, Fred's question is about FAI F4B rules, not AMA.  Here is a link to the FAI rules - https://www.fai.org/sites/default/files/sc4_vol_f4_scale_23.pdf.

Fred - as many of the comments stated, competing with an aircraft without throttle control is very challenging.  The F4B rules penalize this very heavily.
- Takeoff would be scored zero because the model would need to be held by a person.  Section 6.2C.3. states 3. If held or touched by anyone during the manoeuvre, the score is zero.
- Landing would be downgraded because the engine would be stopped.  Section 6.2C.6. lists an error 9. Engine(s) stops before the landing manoeuvre is finished.

Section 6.2.7 describes the Optional Demonstrations.  There is a list of optional demonstrations to choose from.  If a pilot only chooses three optional demonstrations, then the fourth is scored zero.  There are some very simple optional demonstrations that most models can achieve, including high flight, and lazy eight.

So while you can enter a model without throttle control, it is impossible to achieve decent flight scores without using a throttle.  Note that throttle control is much easier now since 2.4 GHz radio control equipment is allowed for secondary control functions (see section 6.2.2.d).  In the US, the majority of models at the Nats use 2.4 GHz radio to control throttle (and it is the only way to control with electric motors).

Let me know if you have any other questions.

Seems a very comprehensive answer. As said of the 17 'optional' elements 4 need to be selected and notified prior to flight and carried out in the selected order. Owing to the low numbers in your competitions and the fact that few if any have throttle control, i'd suggest omitting this and elements affected by it from your scoring schedule or award everyone the same score that shows no favoritism even though not FAI rules!

Offline fred cesquim

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Re: F4B rule doubt (FAI)
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2023, 12:06:00 PM »
Sorry, I missed answering one of your questions.

In F4B, a taxi is REQUIRED prior to takeoff per 6.2C.2. 

There is an Optional Demonstration taxi manoeuvre listed in 6.2C.5.Q.  This would take place after landing.
thanks Peter, you nailed it!
my model have 3 cable system, and next one will be r/c assisted. but since i am organizing the F4B here i had to adress these doubts properly!
thanks a  lot for clarification!


Offline fred cesquim

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Re: F4B rule doubt (FAI)
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2023, 12:07:53 PM »
Seems a very comprehensive answer. As said of the 17 'optional' elements 4 need to be selected and notified prior to flight and carried out in the selected order. Owing to the low numbers in your competitions and the fact that few if any have throttle control, i'd suggest omitting this and elements affected by it from your scoring schedule or award everyone the same score that shows no favoritism even though not FAI rules!
i had briefed pilots with that information, but i wanted tobe sure i wasnīt following wrong rule interpretation
thanks a lot guys!

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: F4B rule doubt (FAI)
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2023, 08:35:17 AM »
On the no-throttle thing -- if you want to encourage people to enter no-throttle planes, without making throttles pointless for your events, award first and second overall, and best no-throttle plane.  Or first, second, third & no-throttle.  That'll give the no-throttle folks a reason to show up, while at the same time giving them a reason to upgrade.

I'd say "just get a radio", but I know that getting all that stuff that we take for granted is harder down there.  If cost or availability is an issue, there's designs for home-brew 3-line bellcranks and handles out there.  They aren't as pretty, and they take some shop time to make -- but they can be done, out of a variety of flat materials.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: F4B rule doubt (FAI)
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2023, 12:25:14 PM »
With the equipment on sale today there is no barrier to throttle control.  All engines are sold as "RC" engines with factory throttles and mufflers.

A perfectly adequate car controller is sold for $25.  You still need a $4 servo and battery pack.  A 4.6 to 6.6 volt battery pack can be had for under $20.  I do just fine a throwaway pack of four AAA's.

This plane was built for WWII combat and stunt and retrofitted to Fun Scale as descibed.

Paul Smith

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: F4B rule doubt (FAI)
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2023, 02:09:23 PM »
A perfectly adequate car controller is sold for $25.

Fred lives in Brazil, which has some pretty difficult import restrictions.  He has mentioned difficulty with finding stuff before.

So, yes, here in the US of A it's easy and cheap to get gear.  But you can't assume that's the case everywhere.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: F4B rule doubt (FAI)
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2023, 03:05:59 PM »
Fred lives in Brazil, which has some pretty difficult import restrictions.  He has mentioned difficulty with finding stuff before.

So, yes, here in the US of A it's easy and cheap to get gear.  But you can't assume that's the case everywhere.

Yeah, well, most of this stuff comes from China.  Does China not do business with Brazil?
Paul Smith

Offline fred cesquim

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Re: F4B rule doubt (FAI)
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2023, 04:57:02 PM »
On the no-throttle thing -- if you want to encourage people to enter no-throttle planes, without making throttles pointless for your events, award first and second overall, and best no-throttle plane.  Or first, second, third & no-throttle.  That'll give the no-throttle folks a reason to show up, while at the same time giving them a reason to upgrade.

I'd say "just get a radio", but I know that getting all that stuff that we take for granted is harder down there.  If cost or availability is an issue, there's designs for home-brew 3-line bellcranks and handles out there.  They aren't as pretty, and they take some shop time to make -- but they can be done, out of a variety of flat materials.

thanks for the good ideas Tim!
actually on FAI we have to follow the rules, but we have a "sport" category so those who donpt want to mess with throttle doesenīt lost points for that
iīm in for RC and e-power on my FAI model, and most of us will be using the same. told the other competitors, either use r/c 3 lines or accept the downgrade of points.
After this clarification i found out that by the correct rules i would be first on 2021, not third! but thatīs ancient story.
there is a lot of cheap used RC gear available here in Brasil, people just have to be more progressive on control line.

Offline fred cesquim

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Re: F4B rule doubt (FAI)
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2023, 04:58:00 PM »
Fred lives in Brazil, which has some pretty difficult import restrictions.  He has mentioned difficulty with finding stuff before.

So, yes, here in the US of A it's easy and cheap to get gear.  But you can't assume that's the case everywhere.
exactly Tim, we do have the goodies but the import taxes arer 100% over the product cost + shipping cost
then we have a cambio rate of 5,6:1

Offline fred cesquim

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Re: F4B rule doubt (FAI)
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2023, 04:59:20 PM »
Yeah, well, most of this stuff comes from China.  Does China not do business with Brazil?
they do, but the taxes issue is the problem money-wise. but the main problem here is modellers mindset against any R/C stuff or techniques...
i


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