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Author Topic: C/L Scale Nats. 2013  (Read 3792 times)

Offline Allen Goff

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C/L Scale Nats. 2013
« on: April 08, 2013, 09:05:12 AM »
Gentlemen;

This will be the schedule for Fri. at the 2013 Nats.

Processing & static judging ................. 8:00 am.* location yet to be secured.

Judges (only) meeting.........................6:00 pm.
Scale symposium (Mike Barbee)........... 7:00 pm.
Pilots meeting.....................................7:30 pm.
Location is, Signature Inn, 7:00 - 8:30 pm upstairs in the conference room. Same as last year

 D>K All meeting will be ran by the event directors. John Brodak & Allen Goff.
Mike Barbee has excepted an invitation to run a scale symposium for us. Many of us on the CLTF sat in on two of his symposion's at Toledo. Much of what Mike spoke about carries over to controline scale too. If you know anything about scale modeling you should recognize the name. Mike has won about all there is to win in R/C scale, Nats, Top Gun, Scale Masters and many more.

Blessings
Allen
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 07:00:24 AM by Allen Goff »

Offline Jim Fruit

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Re: C/L Scale Nats. 2013
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2013, 06:03:48 PM »
Allen:

Your information above reads as if the location for the static judging will be at the Signature Inn. Is that what you intended or will it be at the NATS site?

Jim Fruit

Offline Allen Goff

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Re: C/L Scale Nats. 2013
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2013, 06:31:06 AM »
Sorry if that is misleading. As of now they don't have a location. I was talking with the R/C event director, Jim ? (sorry) and he said they would like to have it under the tents and in the same location BUT, free flight will be going on and they don't want the tents up, soooooooooooo. We don't know yet. IT WONT BE AT THE MOTEL THO.

Blessings
Allen

Offline Allen Goff

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Re: C/L Scale Nats. 2013
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2013, 06:52:40 AM »
This is not C/L but it is scale. Among these pictures you will see Mike Barbee and his T-34B, 118 pounds and he flew it last Thursday for the first time at AMA. You have to see these airplanes up close to appreciate the craftsmanship. Every time I go to Toledo I realize just how far I have to go and how much more there is to this thing call "scale competition". Enjoy.

Blessings
Allen

Offline Allen Goff

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Re: C/L Scale Nats. 2013
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2013, 06:53:39 AM »
more

Offline Allen Goff

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Re: C/L Scale Nats. 2013
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2013, 06:54:57 AM »
more

Offline Allen Goff

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Re: C/L Scale Nats. 2013
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2013, 06:56:35 AM »
done

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: C/L Scale Nats. 2013
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2013, 08:42:08 AM »
Great pics, but no control line planes?
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
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AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Allen Goff

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Re: C/L Scale Nats. 2013
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2013, 06:25:56 PM »
Just got off the phone with Shannon and here is the schedule for Fri.(Static)

Pick up your packets at headquarters, then proceed to the farm house, there you will see the large tent and that is where static judging will take place. DO NOT GO TO STAGE CENTER. Free flight will still be competing.

Got any question drop me a line.

Blessings
Allen
« Last Edit: June 16, 2013, 08:45:13 PM by Allen Goff »

Offline Allen Goff

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Re: C/L Scale Nats. 2013
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2013, 06:46:48 AM »
Happy 4th of July everyone. C/L Scale Nats next week, have a safe trip.

Blessings
Allen, your friendly scale nats event director.

Offline Allen Goff

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Re: C/L Scale Nats. 2013
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2013, 12:52:52 PM »
Nats registration stands at 43 airplanes for C/L Scale and more yet to register. Who said C/L Scale is dying?

Blessings
Allen

Offline Will Hinton

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Re: C/L Scale Nats. 2013
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2013, 04:34:47 PM »
Of all the years for me to not be able to make it!  Whine, snivel, whine, moan, complain. HB~> :'( :'( R%%%%
John 5:24   www.fcmodelers.com

Offline Jim Fruit

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Re: C/L Scale Nats. 2013
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2013, 08:05:56 PM »
Sorry we won't get to see you, Will.

Jim Fruit

Offline Will Hinton

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Re: C/L Scale Nats. 2013
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2013, 05:19:42 PM »
Thanks Jim, I'll miss seeing all those great airplanes, but I'll miss seeing all you great guys a whole lot more.  There's nothing like the fellowship at the nats.
John 5:24   www.fcmodelers.com

Offline Clancy Arnold

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Re: C/L Scale Nats. 2013
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2013, 11:58:23 AM »
The wife and I went up to Muncie to watch the CL Scale event.

Friday night a Pilots meeting was held where Allen Goff passed out a 1 page status report on the work being done by the CL Scale Rules review committee that was established at last years NATS. Good questions were asked about how certain maneuvers or Options should be flown.

Saturday night was the NASA (National Association of Scale Aeromodelers) Banquet. For the first time the plaques, provided by John Brodak, for the top static scores in each of the five CL classes were given out at the banquet. I was in the opposite corner and only heard one name. Drum roll please! Sport Scale high static was won by David Platt! Yes that David Platt. The level of competition is going up!
Clancy

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Offline Will Hinton

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Re: C/L Scale Nats. 2013
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2013, 12:42:41 PM »
A picture of Dave's plane is posted here on Stunthanger and it looks to be absolutely breathtaking!
John 5:24   www.fcmodelers.com

Offline Jim Fruit

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Re: C/L Scale Nats. 2013
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2013, 07:56:43 AM »
The wife and I went up to Muncie to watch the CL Scale event.

Friday night a Pilots meeting was held where Allen Goff passed out a 1 page status report on the work being done by the CL Scale Rules review committee that was established at last years NATS. Good questions were asked about how certain maneuvers or Options should be flown.

Saturday night was the NASA (National Association of Scale Aeromodelers) Banquet. For the first time the plaques, provided by John Brodak, for the top static scores in each of the five CL classes were given out at the banquet. I was in the opposite corner and only heard one name. Drum roll please! Sport Scale high static was won by David Platt! Yes that David Platt. The level of competition is going up!
Clancy



Clancy:

Could I bother you to e-mail me a copy of that status report? I had every intention of attending the NATs with my new plane, but my Crohn's disease decided to have me start throwing up two days prior. When it came time to leave, I was too weak to make the trip. The plane is still in the car. I am still sick. Anyway, it sounds like it was a great weekend for the NATS. I would appreciate a copy of that report. Thanks.

Jim Fruit

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: C/L Scale Nats. 2013
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2013, 10:27:28 AM »
The AMA site has the daily report of NATS happenings.  Click on Competition & Events.  Then click on NATS News.   Each day is there.  Of course it probably doesn't have the scale rules meeting report.
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Chris McMillin

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Re: C/L Scale Nats. 2013
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2013, 03:05:55 PM »
A picture of Dave's plane is posted here on Stunthanger and it looks to be absolutely breathtaking!

And for those that don't know which model Dave built this year, we can get a hint maybe?
Chris...

Offline Bill Little

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Re: C/L Scale Nats. 2013
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2013, 03:35:37 PM »
And for those that don't know which model Dave built this year, we can get a hint maybe?
Chris...

Hi Chris,

It's a T-28.

Bill
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Trying to get by

Online chuck snyder

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Re: C/L Scale Nats. 2013
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2013, 05:00:55 PM »
How in the world did they come up with the scores published in Nats News????

Offline Jim Kraft

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Re: C/L Scale Nats. 2013
« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2013, 06:47:35 PM »
I did not see Dave Platts name in the final scores. Did he have trouble? Hope his plane is OK. I did see where he lost his nose gear in practice, but sounded like he got that fixed. Just wondered what happened.
Jim Kraft

Offline Chris McMillin

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Re: C/L Scale Nats. 2013
« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2013, 01:17:07 AM »
Thanks Bill,
I remember his T-28's a long time ago and they were tops back then, too.
Hope you're feeling great!
Chris...
I'll
Hi Chris,

It's a T-28.

Bill

Offline Clancy Arnold

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Re: C/L Scale Nats. 2013
« Reply #23 on: July 18, 2013, 08:14:27 AM »
If anyone took pictures of the score sheets at the CL Scale NATS please post them!
Especially after the end of flying Sunday.
Clancy
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Offline Trostle

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Re: C/L Scale Nats. 2013
« Reply #24 on: July 18, 2013, 10:36:18 AM »
If anyone took pictures of the score sheets at the CL Scale NATS please post them!
Especially after the end of flying Sunday.
Clancy

All of the CL scale scores are on the AMA Nats News website at

http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/071513.pdf

The CL scores are listed at the very bottom of that report. Lists names and scores, but unfortunately, not the airplane.

KT

Offline Clancy Arnold

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Re: C/L Scale Nats. 2013
« Reply #25 on: July 18, 2013, 01:16:01 PM »
Keith T.
The problem is that a perfect score in CL Fun Scale is 110 points and the winner has 185.25 points.  A perfect score in Sport, Profile and Team Scale is 200 points and the winner of CL Sport Scale has 278.25, the winner in Profile Scale has 271.25 and the winner in Team Scale has 217.5 points.

I just received a call from the lady at AMA who typed the scores into the NATS NEWS.
She checked the math and said the first one for CL Profile Scale was correct per the information she was given.  I told her that that score was not possible.  She said she would call Allen Goff and try to get the correct scores.  The problem may be that the trophies were awarded to the wrong contestants.

The top two Flight Scores are to be averaged and then the average is added to the static score for the final score.  What was done was the top two flight scores and the static score were all added together. 

Example: A contestant has a 90 static score and two best flight scores of 90 and 89.  (89 + 90 /2) + 90 = 179.5.  Another contestant has a static score of 89 and two best flight scores of 90 each.  (90 +90 /2) + 90 = 179.0.  The way it appears that these scores were done would have resulted in a tie at 279.0.
Clancy
Clancy Arnold
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Offline Allen Goff

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Re: C/L Scale Nats. 2013
« Reply #26 on: July 18, 2013, 02:32:19 PM »
chuck, I did and the way Clancy explained it was the way it was done. everyone was told this Sat. Morning at the pilots meeting.
Allen
« Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 11:17:17 AM by Allen Goff »

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: C/L Scale Nats. 2013
« Reply #27 on: July 18, 2013, 06:34:28 PM »
Nobody has answered the question about Dave Platt.
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Offline Fred Cronenwett

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Re: C/L Scale Nats. 2013
« Reply #28 on: July 19, 2013, 10:02:34 AM »
Dave platt had landing gear trouble on one flight but also had trouble with his motor so he was not able to get a complete flight in.

The way the scoring is done you need to do well with TWO great flights to place well. With a local contest you get a great static and one good flight and you are set. At the nats if you can not get 2 awesome flights you won't place very well. I noticed that some folks did not have working equipment.

Grant flew the spacewalker to a first place finish in sport scale and also got the NASA flight achievement award

I flew my new 96" span B-29 to a first place finish in profile scale.

The only reason my 56" span RV-4 placed third in sport scale is that I was able to get good flights in and other folks with higher static scores did not get great flights in.

Fred Cronenwett
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Offline Trostle

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Re: C/L Scale Nats. 2013
« Reply #29 on: July 19, 2013, 11:05:16 AM »

The way the scoring is done you need to do well with TWO great flights to place well. 

Fred Cronenwett

I guess that is why scale is a flying event.  And in my opinion, that is the way it should be.

Keith

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: C/L Scale Nats. 2013
« Reply #30 on: July 19, 2013, 09:06:49 PM »
How in the world did they come up with the scores published in Nats News????

Instead of AVERAGING the two best flight scores, they TOTALLED them. Thus the perfect score was raised from 200 to 300 and the value of static points was cut in half.  I noticed this and tried to get corrected, but was ignorred.

There was a VERY CLOSE race for the top four places in Profile and I was doing the math myself.  I was satisfied that the top four happened to come out in the right order.  It wasn't until I downloaded the scoreboard photos and examined the numbers that I detected the error, which carried over through 1/2A, profile, sport, and fun scale.  

Unfortnately, once it's published in The Nats News AMA will make to effort to correct the record.  In a recent Nats the results of Combat included people who didn't even fly above the actual winner.

-----------------
Other than adding up all the scores wrong and awarding the High Static plaque in Profile to the wrong person everything went well.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 09:25:39 PM by Paul Smith »
Paul Smith

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: C/L Scale Nats. 2013
« Reply #31 on: July 20, 2013, 11:07:38 AM »
So this was all explained at the NATS to all pilots of how it was going to be done.   Then no one protested the procedure and one individual waits until all is done to complain.  Looking at the NATS News everyone looked happy to me.
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: C/L Scale Nats. 2013
« Reply #32 on: July 20, 2013, 10:13:27 PM »
The discussion was about whether they would use one score from Saturday and one score from Sunday, or simply take the best two scores regardless of the day.

There was never the slightest discussion of totaling rather than averaging scores, which violates AMA rules and effectively turned all events in Fun Scale.

In most events static points were devalued from 50% to 33%.
In Fun Scale static was devalued from 9% to 4.5%.
Paul Smith

Offline Trostle

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Re: C/L Scale Nats. 2013
« Reply #33 on: July 20, 2013, 11:54:28 PM »
I was not there, so I am not sure in what context any discussions were held prior to the beginning of any of the scale events.  But I can bring up some points in the rules that perhaps were discussed and followed, correctly or incorrectly, during the contest.

1.  For Sport and Profile Scale, the rules are clear.  The total score consists of the static score and the average of the two best flight scores if 3 or more rounds are flown.  If only 2 rounds, the single best flight is added to the static score.  For Fun Scale, the single best flight is added to the static score. 

1.a.  There are provisions in the rulebook to hold events that deviate from the rules for local contests.  Such "unofficial" rules should be published or otherwise available to contestants well before the contest.  For a Nationals level (AAAAA) contest, there are no provisions to deviate from the AMA rulebook for listed '"official" AMA events.  To hold a "pilots' meeting" just prior to the start of the actual contest is not a valid basis to change the rules for that contest without the risk of a formal protest being filed.

2.  If there was a deviation to the rules in the manner the static scores were calculated in the total scores for the CL Scale events, a protest could have legitimately been submitted.  "Protests concerning the conduct of a meet ... will be considered only when presented in writing ... to the Contest Diretor no later than one (1) hour after the close of the contest..."  Regardless of the scoring procedures used at this Nats, it appears that no formal protest was submitted by the one hour cutoff period after the contest, so the scores will/should appear to stand.  A protest could have been initiated at any time from immediately after the pilots' meeting to one hour after the posting of the final scores for any deviation to the official rules that were not announced prior to the Nats.

For the record, I AM NOT VOLUNTEERING TO RUN ANY SCALE EVENT AT ANY NATS.

Keith

Offline Allen Goff

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Re: C/L Scale Nats. 2013
« Reply #34 on: July 21, 2013, 06:07:36 AM »
Paul, Clancy and everyone...........the job (ED) is open for next year!!!!!!

Allen

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: C/L Scale Nats 2013
« Reply #35 on: July 21, 2013, 07:02:07 AM »
Allen,

Nobody is trying to get rid of you or replace you.  We just want to bring to scoring into alignment with The AMA Rule Book.

I'll contribute a corrected scoresheet for Profile.  I didn't photograph the other events.

                                Best two         
                        Static       Fly        Fly     Average fly    Score   posted "score"
Cronenneit          91.50     87.25     92.50     89.88     181.38       271.25
Avery                 93.00     89.00     87.25     88.13     181.13       269.25
Brownhill            88.50     89.00     89.00     89.00     177.50       266.50
Smith                 89.00     86.75     82.75     84.75     173.75       258.50
               
The order of placement remains the same, but only by the barest of margins.     

In any operation, spotting and correcting an error is NOT equal to calling for a persons replacement. Allen did a great job, but these errors need to be corrected for the record.         
               
               


               
               
               
      
« Last Edit: July 21, 2013, 07:48:22 PM by Paul Smith »
Paul Smith

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: C/L Scale Nats. 2013
« Reply #36 on: July 21, 2013, 07:58:48 AM »
If the scoring did not change the final results,  WHAT IS THE PROBLEM?   I had the same problem the first contest I ran for stunt.  One person was upset over his low score.  I asked him if he thought he flew better than the guy that won?   He walked away with no answer.
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Offline john vlna

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Re: C/L Scale Nats. 2013
« Reply #37 on: July 21, 2013, 11:14:43 AM »
Doc
Seems to me that the reason to discuss it is because an event should be run by the rules, that is fare to all. While it did not change the ranking in this case it could easily have done so.

Mistake can happen, but efforts should be made to correct errors. I have been questioned before on scores at the NATS and elsewhere. I have always rechecked to ensure that it was correct. And in some cases a mistake was made and corrected.

John

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: C/L Scale Nats. 2013
« Reply #38 on: July 21, 2013, 07:40:53 PM »
John Vlna:

Very correct  !!

While the ED spent 2.8 days doing good work, the contestants spent infinately more building their models, travelling to  Muncie, and competing.  All we are asking is that data which has been collected at great expense to the contestants and officials be properly tabulated and reported.

The ED did a GREAT job assembling a BIG team of judges.  Unfortunately, in the closing minutes the numbers they collected were mishandled.  There is no reason this error cannot simply be corrected and proper results posted.  

-------------------

I am of the opinion that future Nats entrants will think twice about coming to Muncie if these numbers stand.
Paul Smith

Offline Mike Gretz

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Re: C/L Scale Nats. 2013
« Reply #39 on: July 22, 2013, 06:54:00 AM »
WOW!

As Keith said, "For a Nationals level (AAAAA) contest, there are no provisions to deviate from the AMA rulebook for listed '"official" AMA events."

The rules should never be changed for the NATS.  AMA rules must be followed to the letter.  People travel great distances to compete and expect the rules, to which they selected and built their entry, to be followed. 

Luckily there was not a protest, which would have been successful and would have nullified this year's results.  I hope it never happens again.

Mike Gretz
Chairman
AMA Scale Contest Board

Offline Allen Goff

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Re: C/L Scale Nats. 2013
« Reply #40 on: July 22, 2013, 01:26:48 PM »
My apologies to everyone. The scores are being corrected and will be changed on the AMA web site. You all are right and I am wrong.
My last word on this subject.



ALLEN
« Last Edit: July 24, 2013, 04:10:11 AM by Allen Goff »

Offline Mike Gretz

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Re: C/L Scale Nats. 2013
« Reply #41 on: July 22, 2013, 02:30:10 PM »
Allen,

I am really sorry you feel that way.  I have a good idea of the amount of time and effort you put into the ED job.  I've been Nats ED several times before.

I was not suggesting that anything be changed at this point.  "No harm, no foul".  I did feel it was necessary to say that the AMA rules should always be followed for NATS events.  Otherwise, what is the purpose of the AMA rules?

I sincerely hope that this small incident does not sour you on scale.

Best regards,
Mike Gretz 

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: C/L Scale Nats. 2013
« Reply #42 on: July 22, 2013, 08:05:37 PM »
What is bad is he had some individuals that knew better and didn't speak up.   Even the old heads in the competition should have said something.  Allen G. I hope you change your mind about scale.   I know it only takes one individual to spoil the works.   I guess I have been around long enough to let it roll off the back like water does to ducks when it rains. 
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: C/L Scale Nats. 2013
« Reply #43 on: July 24, 2013, 09:59:51 AM »
On the current AMA web site.  Page 8.  Paragraph 12.  What could be clearer?

Still not fixed on the 2013 Nats results. 



12. CL Official Score: “The official score shall be the total static points (100 maximum) and the average of the two (2) best flight scores (100 maximum). To break a tie, the best single flight will be added to the static score. If this does not break the tie, add the average of the three (3) best flights to the static score. If this does not break the tie then add the average of the four (4) best flight scores to the static score. If only two (2) rounds are flown then the official score will be the total of the static points (100 maximum) and the best single flight score (100maximum). To break a tie if only two rounds are flown, Add the average of both flights to the static score”
Paul Smith

Offline Will Hinton

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Re: C/L Scale Nats. 2013
« Reply #44 on: July 25, 2013, 04:42:37 PM »
C'mon Paul, Allen did his part, he's submitted the change to AMA as per his above EDITED post, now it's up to them to do the changing.  Let's move on.
John 5:24   www.fcmodelers.com

Offline Will Hinton

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Re: C/L Scale Nats. 2013
« Reply #45 on: July 26, 2013, 10:19:30 AM »
Yolanda at AMA has taken a few days off to regain her sanity after all those weeks of recording nats scores for a gazillion events so isn't back to work yet.  I'm not sure when she comes back, but next week is probably a good guess.  The scores will be her responsibility as far as changing them goes.
John 5:24   www.fcmodelers.com


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