Here's the question: Is the yellow used by the Army and Navy in the late 20's and thru the 30's the same quality of yellow? I know that the Army used an orange/yellow ( some have called it a Cub Yellow)--- did the Navy use the same quality or did they use a more yellow yellow -- a brighter yellow?

I don't know if this book is still available but I have a copy of the "IPMS color cross-reference guide" written by David H. Klaus.

This book has FS number references with names of the colors for each nation and where they were used.

For Pre-WWII aircraft the following colors are listed....

This book lists Chrome yellow as FS13598 for US Navy upper wing top sides
Identication yellow is FS 33538, it does not mention how this color was used
It also lists colonial yellow that is FS13596, and aircraft use was not confirmed

The most likely yellow for a pre-WWII US Navy aircraft is FS13598 as Chrome yellow

Once you get your hands on the FS color chips then you match your paint to that color chip and you are in business. Scale judges like to see the FS color chips and proof that they are the right color for the aircraft in question. Sometimes plastic models have color chip information for color schemes.

Land softly,
Fred Cronenwett

Thanks --now on to building and having some serious fun ---balsa dust will be every where ---

Your right on that. To be really accurate you'd need a Fed. Std. color chip in hand.

Here's an example re: Zinc Chromate.
The Engineers were more concerned with corrosion protection than what color it ended up, hence the wide variances and shades.

http://www.colorserver.net/history/history-zinc-chromate.htm

It is well understood that the colors used in WWII varied quite a bit. The Historical records that document the correct FS number for olive drab, yellows, and other colors may sound going overboard but if you enter the Nats or other scale contests with a CL scale model the judges will expect to see a color chip in the form of a FS std color chip. And you need to clearly state you have the right color with historical references.

Take for example the next model I have planned...the Hawker Hurricane. These aircraft were painted with three different colors and you would be surprised on how much information has been published on this topic. When I prepare the documentation I will present FS std color chips of the three colors so that the judges can say that I painted the model the exact color it should be.  I will also mix the paint to exactly match the gloss and color of the color chip. The model will represent an aicraft that has just left the paint hanger and has not been into service yet.

Did the real aircraft fade in real life...yes. If I was building a model for sport flying I would not go to the trouble to getting an exact match to the FS std color chip. But if I am building for CL scale competition I will match the historical color to the letter and present the color chip to get full points. Look at the AMA rules for scale competition and you will see references to color chips.

Exact color chips are only required for scale competition

Good luck,
Fred Cronenwett

I just reviewed The Rules again.  There's nothing about FS chips being required.  Such a requirement would limit subjects to a small percentage of the world's aircraft.

To the contrary, The Rules specifically allow the use of written descriptions of the colors.  Not every airplane was built in a US mil spec factory.  Homebuilts and racers could be painted with one-off concoctions.  Even some warbirds were customized with nonstandard paint jobs.

Paul:

You are correct in that the AMA rules do not require FS color chips as documentation. One would have to be careful about the written description, however, because that rule goes on to say that it must be from a "reliable source". In other words, one just could not write his own description. The more complete the information that we provide to the judges, the better chance for a better score.

We need to understand that we are making a representation to the judges. All that they can judge by is the completeness of the information that we present to them. I personally like to use photographs, but that is not always available to us. I agree with John in that in the many types of documentation thatr I have seen presented to the judges, I believe they have done a great job.

Jim Fruit

My statement on  the section colors was to show that the wing top and the other yellow on the 4th section  of Navy squadrons of the prewar era, did use two different yellows and they are obvious. The orange yellows on the wings is much darker than the lemon yellows on the tail, cowl and fuselage band.
I have never seen any photos, and I have looked at thousands of US Navy prewar planes, that ever showed them weathered, faded or dull.  They didn't fly all that much and were babied by the ground crews. The depression kept them on the ground more than in the air as the servies had very little money for fuel or even spare parts.

Ty,
You are exactly right on those U.S. Navy colors.  Military colors are the easiest to document because even in the 1920s the government had specified colors that contractors and repair stations were required to use.  It's all very well documented.  The early standard colors were called "ANA" colors, which stood for Army-Navy-Air-Corps.  Eventually ANA color standards gave way the "FS", or Federal Standard, color system that is still used today.  

The "Chrome Yellow" used on pre-WWII U.S. Navy aircraft was called ANA-506 back in that time.  The FS equivalent number is FS-13415 for pre & early WWII, and FS-13538 for late & post WWII (it changed slightly mid war - when I look at these two color chips, there is hardly any difference.)

The "Lemon Yellow" used for unit and section markings on pre-WWII U.S. Navy aircraft was called ANA-505.  The FS equivalent number is FS-13591 for pre & early WWII, and FS-13655 for late & post WWII.

While I have several books upstairs in my library to document these colors, the above information was found with a 10 minute search of the web just now.  There is a TON of great data online about this subject, a lot of it from plastic model craftsman, who take colors very seriously.
http://www.cybermodeler.com/color/ana_matrix.shtml
http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq2-1.htm  (see June 1, 1931)
http://www.cybermodeler.com/color/usn_preww2.shtml
http://www.researcheratlarge.com/Aircraft/YellowWings/index.html
http://www.jpsmodell.de/dc/usn_e.htm

IMO, properly documenting and recreating the proper color and markings of an airplane is one of the most important parts of scale modeling.  The color and markings are the most visible feature of the airplane.  

Researching military colors is "child's play" compared to civilian, where factories used hundreds of various colors.  Failure to do so is simply lazyness or a totally uncaring attitude about the history.

Mike

  

I just reviewed The Rules again.  There's nothing about FS chips being required.  Such a requirement would limit subjects to a small percentage of the world's aircraft.

To the contrary, The Rules specifically allow the use of written descriptions of the colors.  Not every airplane was built in a US mil spec factory.  Homebuilts and racers could be painted with one-off concoctions.  Even some warbirds were customized with nonstandard paint jobs.

Paul,

In defense of what Fred K and others have written here:  Research on the color of a specific full size airplane can be frustrating.  However, investing time and going through books, sources of 3-views, plastic kits and painting instructions in those plastic kits, many colors are described in different ways,  sometimes, in the case of some plastic kits, the colors, though the model may be of some obscure foreign aircraft, will give color references in terms of our Federal Standard Numbers,  Futhermore, that IPMS color guide mentioned earlier in this thread gives a cross reference to practically every known color of all of the world's air forces to an FSN.  There is also a Chicago Scalemaster Color Guide which does the same thing. (This may well be the basis for the IPMS book.)  Every semi-serious scale builder should have access to one of those publications.   The Chicago Scalemasters book has been "deemed acceptable as AMA Scale Presentation material" by the AMA Scale Contest Board.  Using FSN color chips identified by such such references will essentially remove all doubt by scale judges in even the most serious scale competitions.

Now, if we are talking about fun scale or even most sport scale events, there is little need to get into the nuances of age and service wear affects on colors, but, for example, there is a myriad of yellows that could be entirely wrong for a given aircraft.   If the airplane is a factory Piper Cup, the yellow should be something similar to a Cub yellow, not a screaming neon yellow.

But for those who are getting into sport scale or some form of precision scale, part of the process of preparing a miniature aircraft is to get the appropriate colors and the appropriate documentation for those colors.  That is as important as getting the 3-view documentation and photographic documentation for the outline and details represented by the model aircraft.  The model that has what appears to be more appropriate colors and the docmentation to backup those colors will normally score better, at least in regard to the coloring and morkings portions of the competition than the model without such an appearance and/or documentation.

Keith