Author Topic: AMA CL Scale Rules (Read 2017 times)

Hoss Cain · « **on:** July 25, 2009, 04:43:44 PM »

As an old timer, and thinking about again getting somewhat serious (NEVER really serious) about both CL Stunt and Scale, I have noticed that the AMA Rules are all made to fit the really serious and proficient competitor. For sake of ~~argument~~ I mean discussion, there are two events that are obviously designed to be easy for the new comer or the sport flier that just wants to do simple flying. These are the Fun Scale and the Profile Scale events. However, have the trophy-grabbers set these event aside for themselves?

In my opinion and thinking back to my younger days, one could fly a CL Scale event with a regular two-line model. Not so today, even in these lesser scale events. Take-off and landings rules preclude flying any CL Scale event without engine control.

Back in the old days, the daddy-builts were the problem the youngster faced in the Scale event, not the required equipment. Today it seems the youngster or the sport flier wishing to compete on occasion has even more rules thrown at him/her. I see these rules as made by serious competitors to keep the arena free of those lesser individuals and possible new blood, because the possible new entry into said arena definitely does not have any input into these rules.

With these ideas in my mind, I can detect that there is work here to be done. The AMA Bylaws require promoting model aviation in several different terms. I, personally, believe that the Contest Boards disallow such promotions when they allow rules that actually offer severe roadblocks to the newer hobbyists, especially those that would care to advance their own experiences and try to obtain higher levels.

Back in the late '80s - early '90s I well remember how the Scale Contest Board fought and won against the attempts to get just even a Supplemental or Provisional Rule status for Scale Warbird Racing, simply because Mr. Platt was adamant that no Racing would be allowed in his SCALE category. Since SWR had static judging, it could not be in Racing, so a great event died a slow death. Unfortunately the AMA Pres. kept a hands-off position.

While there are a number of options to give the newcomers a break here, I am sure the hardcore folks will fight it, but nothing ventured, nothing gained. Guess I better get off the soap box and get to work.

john e. holliday · « **Reply #1 on:** July 26, 2009, 01:17:18 PM »

This reminds me of the days when Profile Carrier was started to encourage beginners or newcomers that did not want to build scale carrier planes. You either flew scale or profile, but, not both. I stayed with scale in contest work, but, did have a profile just to play with. When the powers to be changed it so people could fly all the carrier classes I think was the down fall of carrier. It was hard enough for me to keep one plane going and the experience I had at the time did not help the beginner/newcomer as they thought I couldn't be beat here locally.

I did throw together a built up fun scale plane that I flew at St Louis one year. I was fourth out of four entries as my documentation left a lot to be desired. I also couldn't get the engine to shut down at the end of the flight. Lack of practice. But it would be great if someone came up with a rule or event that would encourage newcomers to scale. The wording is the problem. DOC Holliday

Trostle · « **Reply #2 on:** July 26, 2009, 03:22:49 PM »

Quote from: john e. holliday on July 26, 2009, 01:17:18 PM

(clip)

But it would be great if someone came up with a rule or event that would encourage newcomers to scale. The wording is the problem. DOC Holliday

At one time in various parts of the country, there were various versions for the then unofficial "Fun Scale" event. This was for any kind of a scale airplane, like used in carrier, or any of the "semi scale stunt ship" (did not even have to be the Rabe influenced SUPER semi scale stunt ships), and the flight options could be any type of flight or maneuvers that came from any part of the CL rulebook. Any stunt maneuver could be called out, or the high speed low speed flight from the carrier events. Carrier approach. Or any of the maneuvers/options called out in either the AMA or FAI CL scale rules. And there was not an automatic penalty for realism of flight if the gear did not retract on those where the full scale aircraft had retracts. And there was no BOM, at least at some local levels. This idea for Fun Scale got some attention at various local contests.

Documentation requirements were at a minimum. Just enought to show outline of the aircraft and something for the coloring and markings. Judging was to be essentially stand way off. If the judges spent more time than 20 seconds to come up with an appearance/fidelity score from 0 to 5, they spent too long looking at the model. Most of the points came from flying.

SO, what happened next?

It appears the hard core scale rules masters took the Fun Scale rules and made them like all of the other scale rules which basically emphasizes Realism of Flight. No maneuvers that the full scale aircraft did not perform. Retracts are needed if the full scale version had them or there would be loss of points. Too bad.

As Doc just said, wording is the problem.

It is unfortunate that the Scale Contest Board addresses all scale events, when it would appear more logical that there would be separate Scale Contests Boards for CL, FF and RC. (This might be a problem in CL to find a CL scale representative in all 11 districts to serve on the board.)

Keith

Paul Smith · « **Reply #3 on:** July 26, 2009, 04:41:03 PM »

It's true that throttle control has become a necessity to do well in any scale event. But I don't see this as a big problem. 99.5% of all engines sold today come with throttles and it costs money and maybe custom machining to get rid of them. So just buy a handle, bellcrank, and set of three lines and live with it.

There are three issues that threaten to further take down the category:

Mandatory retracts,
electronic controls, and
electric motors.

The "non-retract-penalty" rule, a remnant of the X-FAI event, F4B, forces the competitor to either use retracts, build a fixed gear prototype and take a small beating, or build a retract-gear plane with a fixed gear and be subjected to a fatal reduction in flight points. Fortunately, local contests either waive or discount the penalty, thereby keeping the event alive. This is probably the Number 1 clause of the demise of F4B.

Control Line is an inherently MECHANICAL category. Electrics and electronics have no place here. If this stuff takes off , there will be two guys left wondering where everybody went.

Will Hinton · « **Reply #4 on:** July 26, 2009, 05:21:49 PM »

We still run the fun scale event as just that at the FCM contest. All the documentation required is a picture to prove there was such an airplane in those schemes, that's the 10 points for static judging, and then the flying. I require NO THROTTLE for goodness sakes, and a semi-sclae stunter won a couple of years ago.
The beauty of local contests is the leeway for the event director to use the rules as written or modify them to suit the area and entries, such as the 1/2 A multi-engine scale events now showing up around the country. Those are great, and the originators are showing the fortitude to excercise creativity.
If you want a fun scale event done your way, then become an event director for a contest and do it your way.
As for the electronic controls having no place in control line scale, I'm sorry, but that's hogwash. The model airplane hobby/sport is all about creativity and to try and hold to that arcaic outlook is equivalent to doing away with batting helmets in baseball because they didn't use them at the beginning or some such nonsense.
Will

Paul Smith · « **Reply #5 on:** July 26, 2009, 07:03:04 PM »

A jet ski can beat a swimmer.

A motorcycle can out run a horse.

A ten-channel RC system can do more things than a 3-line control system.

An electric motor can go all the way down to zero speed and back to 100% without the chance of quitting.

You need to decide what the sport is and draw a HARD LINE somewhere. In essence, Control Line is populated by people who chose not to mess with electrons. If they're so hot to use RC, just dump the bellcrank & lines fly RC. It's a lot easier than buying an RC set and converting it to CL.

The original poster felt that going from 2 lines to 3 was a barrier to participation. I agree with his theory to a large extent. But at least you can buy a 3-line system over the counter.

The all-out MINO (money is no object) rules in F4B had the effect of raising the bar so high they couldn't even find five nations with at least one guy to enter.

chuck snyder · « **Reply #6 on:** July 27, 2009, 10:09:59 AM »

Excuses, excuses. It is competition; the bar gets raised. The trophy hunters can't get another one by flying their semi-scale model in "another stunt event." I have non-retractable gear on 3 models that have won first place at the Nats. Stunt is not restricted to Fox .35's and combat is not limited to Voodoos and Johnson .35s. It seems to me that there is not enough interest to do the necessary work to build a model for which there is almost no opportunity to compete. The "bar" is so high now in all events except stunt that they are all about dead. There is no such thing as a beginner's event.

Will Hinton · « **Reply #7 on:** July 27, 2009, 12:55:05 PM »

Electrons is spelled "electrons", not electOrons. I was flying with current up the lines in the late '60's on sport models, still have the lines, but I wouldn't be so foolish as to trust a ship to them now. Point is, modelers have always been inventors, and TRUE modelers will always be inventors. Those who don't want to do the "W" word Chuck used and consider it a four-letter word are the ones who get left in the dust. Ain't no free lunches.

John Witt · « **Reply #8 on:** July 27, 2009, 06:36:29 PM »

I'm not sure that the rules are the heart of the problem, if the problem is lack of entries and lack of new blood. The real cause of CL's decline in numbers I think is two fold. Number one is the advent of cheap, reliable radio equipment, which has enabled the hobby industry to offer products with a much higher profit margin and the consequent advertising and promotion that goes with that. Second is a fixation on the past "golden era" of controline, when many, if not most, of its current practitioners were young (me included).

Control line flight is simply not promoted at the hobby shop level. RC offers the opportunity for vendors to sell more and higher priced equipment than props and control lines. They are folks making a living out of the hobby and will naturally follow where the profits lead them. The same sort of thing has happened to the model railroad crowd, which I am in also, but the train guys have been partially rescued by DCC and electronic sound which have breathed some more margin into that hobby.

Unfortunately we have a generation which will mostly never know the genuine thrill of the physical connection to the flying model that U-control offers. This aspect of the hobby is not even mentioned most of the time, yet, I'd wager it is one of the things that keep a lot of us coming back, even those who have flown a lot of RC.

If you don't get the market place enthralled with what you are doing, or do a lot of your own promotion, the CL hobby will never get enough people to have the commitment to build complex and elaborate scale models. Those people are still out there, but they are flying RC, and they are spending a ton of money to do it. Just look at the jet warbird fly-in featured in the latest Model Aviation.

Many won't like this next paragraph, but here goes anyway. Electric flight offers a chance for UC to recoup some of the Radio Control glamour with reliable, no-fuss power, which lowers the entry bar for newcomers. I predict soon someone, like Clancy, will emerge with a complete multi channel RC system, built into a control handle, as a ready to use package for any scale model you like. We can have retracts, power turrets, whatever. It's all being done routinely in RC and only needs the one insulated wire to happen in a UC model. The hobby shops can sell ESCs, batteries, motors and timers which edges U-control into the same territory as the RC customer base. Add a UC-RF control system and you have a winner.

It's not the rules, which are never going to be perfect, it's the attitudes. There are plenty of scale builders out there, we just need to attract them and there's now an opportunity for the hobby to do that. The answer is not dumbing down the product we have, it is making it more complex and enticing, and still keeping an approach route open for newcomers.

John

chuck snyder · « **Reply #9 on:** July 27, 2009, 07:39:27 PM »

John, hooray for your comment on dumbing down! I mostly agree with your analysis of C/L vs R/C but have a slightly different take on it. Back in the 50's and 60's, C/L was the most capable technology available to the masses. (ie you could do more than with free flight and R/C was unreliable, expensive, and required special skills with the radios) So large numbers of people enjoyed all phases of C/L. Now R/C is the most capable technology available to the masses. And that is where the masses of participants go. So I think it was not so much the vendors pushing people to R/c, it was the customers pulling the sales that direction. This evening all of three of us flew C/L. I flew my D3A1 Val, (with plug and play R/C electronics, no conversion required). It has flaps and throttle. The only maneuvering I could do was touch and goes. Tomorrow I'll be flying my R/C Fokker Dr-l with the same electronics. There will be 12 or 15 guys having fun together. But besides the touch and goes (with side slips if necessary), I'll do loops, rolls, inverted flight, Immelman's, etc, etc, etc, and maybe "dogfight" one of my friend's SE5A. If you just like airplanes, and are not hung up on whether you only fly FF, C/L, or R/C which looks like more fun?

Will Hinton · « **Reply #10 on:** July 28, 2009, 08:03:00 AM »

John and Chuck,
You have both presented outstanding comments and even though you slightly disagreed, I think you are both spot on with 99% of your thoughts. I reserve 1% for my foggy brain's interpretation!

"Well said" to both of you.
Will

Mike Gretz · « **Reply #11 on:** July 28, 2009, 09:56:50 AM »

There have been some great comments made here, as well as some that are not quite accurate. And while Chuck, John, and Will's discussion of the current status of control-line in general is interesting and may play a part in Mr. Cain's original concern, I'd like to focus back to what it would take to get more entries in C/L scale at local contests.

First off, let's get off this idea that "the powers that be" and "their" rules are responsible for low participation. Speaking as a member of the AMA Scale Contest Board, keep in mind that "we", as a body, did not sit down and write the current Fun Scale rules. The rules came from a proposal submitted by an AMA member like yourself. An AMA member submitted a proposal to make Fun Scale an official event, and he proposed to use the current C/L Sport Scale flight judging guide and scoring system for the flying portion. It was the only proposal for Fun Scale in front of the board at the time. A majority of the board agreed that was a good way to get the new event started and the proposal was approved. It was hoped that the Fun Scale event would find acceptance at local contests. Are these rules perfect. By no means! They are in their infancy. Like all new rules, they will need to be tweaked as time goes by. If you are serious about making Fun Scale more popular, you need to take an active part in making that happen.

We are currently right in the middle of the period when rules change proposals are being accepted .. from January 1, 2009 until March 15, 2010.

Down to some specifics.

Horrace Cain wrote...
"there are two events that are obviously designed to be easy for the new comer or the sport flier that just wants to do simple flying. These are the Fun Scale and the Profile Scale events. ... thinking back to my younger days, one could fly a CL Scale event with a regular two-line model. Not so today, even in these lesser scale events. Take-off and landings rules preclude flying any CL Scale event without engine control.

Not quite Horrace. Nowhere in the Fun Scale rules is throttle control required for landing. It is a necessity for take-off at the present time because of this rule. Section 4.3: Takeoff (Mandatory). The model must stand still on the ground with engine(s) running and without being held by a helper.

As Doc said, it's all in the wording. Perhaps an easy rules proposal should be submitted to change the words to this: The model must stand still on the ground with engine(s) running and without being held by a helper, except for Fun Scale. I would vote for that.

But ... should throttle control be banned in Fun Scale? No, not IMO.
Should throttle be required in Fun Scale (as the present rules do)? No, not IMO.
Both those options are too restrictive to entry. If local contests want to make exceptions, that's fine too. Local rules (variations) are always allowed if advertised in advance.

Keith Trostle wrote...
".. there was not an automatic penalty for realism of flight if the gear did not retract on those where the full scale aircraft had retracts."
Paul Smith wrote...
"..Mandatory retracts"

Guys, retracts are not mandatory, nor are they necessary to win. The rule book currently says: 4.2: Realism in Flight. .. e. Any model which flies with wheels down while the prototype actually featured a retractable landing gear will have the score reduced, except Profile Scale models.

That reduction in points can be as much or as little as the judges feel is correct. Local judges may see it, based on the competition, as virtually no deduction. Or perhaps an easy rules proposal should be submitted to change the words to this: .. will have the score reduced, except for Profile Scale and Fun Scale models.

In my opinion, if someone progresses to the point that they want to take their first attempt at using retracts in their Fun Scale model, the rules should NOT preclude that. That contestant can still use his retracts as a "flight option", and get points for it that way. A contestant with a P-51 (for instance) without retracts would not be penalized for not having them, and he can choose another flight option instead.

Again, I think the key for Fun Scale is to keep the door WIDE OPEN if we really want maximum participation on the local level. Throttles, 2-line systems, 3-line systems, electrical systems, retracts, etc. should all be allowed. Will a guy without retracts be at a dissadvantage .. NO! I've been actively flying, judging, and observing C/L Scale models at the Nationals and FAI for almost 40 years, and I can tell you that plenty of non-retract airplanes have competed very well and won in both those events. Retracts are not the automatic winner that some seem to think.

Regarding semi-scale stunters doing AMA stunt pattern maneuvers as flight options in a scale event, if the locals want that it can be allowed as a "local rule". I am not in favor of "dumming down" the national rule which says;
Section 4.14: Other Scale Operations/Flight
Maneuvers Not Listed. A contestant may elect to perform a scale operation or an optional flight maneuver of choice, provided it is within the capabilities of the prototype aircraft.

An event with semi-scale stunters performing stunt maneuvers, simply sounds like another stunt event to me .. call it Precision Aerobatics with the entry restricted to scale like stunters. That's not a scale event. That's not to say that I am against semi-scale stunters entering fun scale. If we eliminate the throttle requirement for take-off (see above), then they can compete in Fun Scale. But they should do scale-like maneuvers. After all it is a scale event, not another stunt event. One man's opinion.

An Even Bigger Problem!
Another way you can help grow C/L scale, and a much bigger problem in my opinion is the fact that very few (hardly any) local C/L contests offer a scale event. So most contest attendees have very little exposure to scale, and even less understanding of the different scale events. That lack of understanding is evident in the some of the comments in this thread.

Include Fun Scale at your local contest. Tweak the rules with pre-announced "local rules" if desired to taylor the event to suit the interests of your local flyers. And let's see some rules change proposals if you truly believe that the rules are hindering participation.

Mike Gretz
Chairman
AMA Scale Contest Board.

Hoss Cain · « **Reply #12 on:** July 28, 2009, 11:08:58 AM »

To all above, there is some very interesting dialogue there. John Witt provides some very good input. His insight definitely demonstrates, IMO, definite factors bearing on the problems of CL flying, if there truly is a problem.

Others define the dedication to work as the basic solution. That too is important. Those dedicated to doing the required work will always come out on top. Yet, that makes me wonder just why certain individuals that do perform so well also wish to close the doors behind themselves to those lesser inclined, which are generally no threat to said performers.

Witt blames the industry for problems associated with profits. Those that invest their time and efforts to provide for the consumers are to be applauded for doing such. Where would/will we all be if a comparably few do not continuously step forward and make those items available to all. What will those "workers" do when so few are available to support any interest in anyones care to provide any of the needed items.

By the same token, as for the industry providers, then when these workers close the doors to new individuals that could well be ready to climb the ladder to the success, yes, just who will be there, "....to have the commitment to build complex and elaborate scale models."

In RC the large competition segments, Pattern and IMAC, do wonders to entice new interest in their events. Here in CL Scale, we find a significant number calling such action as "....dumbing down..." In my very learned experience as a competitor, as a Contest Director since 1963, as a previous Hobby Shop owner, as a provider for a large RC club to acquire acreage for a top facility, as a worker in most aspects of the aeromodeling disciplines, I find the thoughts of those wishing to close the doors to the attraction of new people into the established events to be the number one obstacle to increasing the number of participants.

If a newbie that flies his two line Sunday Flier in a contest and is allowed to obtain some points for a Takeoff that has to be held until released, then can land with a dead engine and still acquire some points is a threat to you, then perhaps you should take a good look at just who should do more work.

Back about 1983 I threw away 125 plaques and trophies. I have acquired more since then. Those thrown away were mostly FF and CL. Those now out in the barn are all RC. Show only to present that I have been around the circuit a couple times.

OOPs, Mike Gretz just submitted a long post. Will get there later. But, Mike, what about your, "Not quite Horrace. Nowhere in the Fun Scale rules is throttle control required for landing."
Not required as only take-offs are optional, landings are mandatory. HA! Did one 1 : 1 scale, out in the rocks one day back in mid-60s. Walked away, and that was points enough!

However what about this 4:17 "If the engine .......multi stuff ... stops prematurely at any time during the flight, zero points will be awarded." Does that apply ONLY if engine control is an option?

Anyway thanks for the input. Hopefully you will be hearing more from me soon.

Mike Gretz · « **Reply #13 on:** July 28, 2009, 12:03:24 PM »

"However what about this 4:17 "If the engine .......multi stuff ... stops prematurely at any time during the flight, zero points will be awarded." Does that apply ONLY if engine control is an option?"

Yes, 4:17 is ONLY about the ENGINE CONTROL option.
Mike

Will Hinton · « **Reply #14 on:** July 28, 2009, 08:01:41 PM »

This may or may not add anything to the discussion, but this weekend is the scale nats. I am attending both Friday for static judging and Saturday to observe the first day of flying. Why? Because I can learn a lot from these people who are doing both the judging and the competing!
I strongly urge any who are truly interested in scale to attend as many contests as you can whether or not you enter for a while. I'm doing this because I've been the event director for the scale competition at the FCM weekend for the past five years and I'm, hopefully, still learning from these guys and gals! The rule book is the number one guide to the event, but the experienced judges and flyers can teach us sooooooooo very much about the application of those rules. Hope to see ya there.
Will

chuck snyder · « **Reply #15 on:** July 29, 2009, 06:42:29 AM »

Will, I'll be there sitting in a judge's chair for three days.

Who said anything about closing the doors behind the "performers?" The few practitioners of this event I know would do anything to help a newcomer.

But it is a "scale" event. The objective, as actually stated in the FAI rules, is to duplicate in minature the looks and flight performance of a full-size airplane. So if you want to call your blue Ringmaster a Bearcat, pay the typical $5 or $10 to enter a (local) contest, and fly another stunt pattern, go ahead. Just don't expect to win.

Mike Gretz · « **Reply #16 on:** July 29, 2009, 07:30:10 AM »

Chuck Snyder...
"Who said anything about closing the doors behind the "performers?" The few practitioners of this event I know would do anything to help a newcomer."

Thank you Chuck. That's been my experience too. Completely.

Mike

Hoss Cain · « **Reply #17 on:** July 29, 2009, 09:23:37 AM »

Quote from: chuck snyder on July 29, 2009, 06:42:29 AM

Will, I'll be there sitting in a judge's chair for three days.

With your mind already made up.

Quote

Who said anything about closing the doors behind the "performers?" The few practitioners of this event I know would do anything to help a newcomer.

I did. Do anything except assist the real "wannabees" get started in the lesser Fun Scale and maybe even Profile Scale with easier rules for getting their feet wet.

Quote

But it is a "scale" event. The objective, as actually stated in the FAI rules, is to duplicate in miniature the looks and flight performance of a full-size airplane. So if you want to call your blue Ringmaster a Bearcat, pay the typical $5 or $10 to enter a (local) contest, and fly another stunt pattern, go ahead. Just don't expect to win.

Where did I say anything about FAI? No one expects FAI to be a beginner's event. I don't expect AMA "Sport" Scale to be a beginner's event. OTOH, IMO, there are considerations that should be made to attract more attention to the CL Fun and Profile events.
As stated in a post above, there are few if any Scale Cl events in local CL contests. Why? Again IMO, because the national rules are far too restrictive in their applications, and the everyday sport flier is not going to get into such. So open some doors, and just maybe over time the event will pick up. Once into the loop, then there will always be those that move on up the ladder. There will also be those that have no desire to do so.

Now just a point in jest: "....Duplicate .... flight performance..." Ha! In 41 years and 20,000+ hours of 1:1 Scale, I never witnessed any of those being tied to a center 'post' and flown in circles.

So does CL get a big downgrade in the Realism of Flight category as instilled by Mr. Dave Platt who had not a clue to the performance and load restrictions of a 1:1 scale?
It's all so comical just how some come out and defend the status quo when it is easy to accept some changes, which if not successful can always be changed at the next cycle. Of course such defense is not limited to toy airplanes.

L0U CRANE · « **Reply #18 on:** July 29, 2009, 01:55:22 PM »

Hoss,

I think I met you first time at Oshkosh, or possibly an early Lake Charles... You've always said what you believe, and in just about the same gentle, humble fashion

. We need more of that - if someone takes one of your comments as abrasive, that's more their problem than yours. You HAVE put a lot of time, soul and substance into making ours a better hobby for as many as possible... Thanks!

In any CL Scale event, ONLY the pilot is positioned to see the model properly, agreed?

If the short-leash tether is a problem for realism, compared to people-toters, the penalty should consider the flat skid, instead of a severe bank, too, no?

Entry-level events have a problem built-in. It's been mentioned, and referred to, in this thread. We learn how to do things better as we go along. When someone does something obviously "better," others learn, and try to do even better. It isn't so much trophy-hounding, as it is improving in an - at first - kinder and gentler competition. The more the advancement, the more competitive. Within reason, this is a good thing... It doesn't take very long, or very many successes, to blunt the luster of "...another G******n trophy!" Its only real value is as a memento of the occasion...

Clancy Arnold · « **Reply #19 on:** July 29, 2009, 04:47:23 PM »

Will, Mike and Chuck

I will be joining you Friday through Sunday also as a Judge.

Will, you have the right idea in volunteering to be a Judge along along side experienced Judges. That is how I improved both my models and the all important Documentation Presentation!

Clancy

Clancy Arnold · « **Reply #20 on:** July 29, 2009, 04:59:29 PM »

Hoss

Does Lampier's (I hope I have the correct name) take off and flight all on one engine in a P-38 count!!! LOL

He taxied it in ever increasing diameter circles until he had enough air across the rudders for directional control to do a straight line take off roll.

Clancy

Will Hinton · « **Reply #21 on:** July 29, 2009, 06:44:29 PM »

Clancy,
Actually, I'm not judging at the nats, only picking brains. I feel I need to learn more before judging at something as big and important as the nats. This weekend is geared toward that qualifying effort.
Thanks much,
Will

John Witt · « **Reply #22 on:** July 29, 2009, 07:34:19 PM »

Looks like this thread has touched a nerve. Some pretty good comments.

A couple of additional points. I didn't mean to phrase things as though I was casting "blame" on hobby shops or manufacturers for doing what brings them a profit. It is simply one of the facts we must deal with. There are a lot of factors at work here, including a generation that overall appears to be fascinated with action over the lower key stimulation of gluing sticks together. Witness the huge market for ready to go models, be they cars, planes, trains or boats. All this activity brings lots of benefits for all of us.

Whatever their enjoyment quotient, IMO, ready to run anythings are mostly toys. The local hobby shop currently looks a lot more like a toy store than a hobby shop. That said, there is a fairly significant marketplace for all kinds of models, generally scale models. That means that there still are a bunch of people out there who want to satisfy their creative urge. Scale model trains, planes, etc are very popular and there seems to be many who like a detailed scale representation of almost anything. Ready to run models can serve to get someone interested in a hobby and after a while they will either seek to improve their mastery or not. You can't please everyone and the hobby can't succeed by trying to do that, but ARFs help provide that entry level access to entice people to go further.

Competitions serve the hobby not only to anoint one person as the best, but to serve as an inspiration to everyone else. It serves the winner as well as the hobby to have close, significant, competition. If you want to attract people to the UC scale hobby, get some really good models and put on an exhibit at a plastic modelers exhibition. They better be good, because those plastic modelers are superb craftsmen.

U-control is now the novelty that RC used to be, Chuck is right on the mark about capable technologies. If we (the UC scale community) want to see more participants, we need to discern the special things that UC brings to the table and emphasize those to the model builder community that is out there.

I'd be very interested to hear what you guys have to say about that. Here are a few things I see, among them the reasons my Jenny will be UC instead of RC:

The direct connection to the plane, where the control input and feedback is in my hand.

The close proximity to the plane. It is never a dot in the sky.

Less complex control system. The basic control is mechanical and direct with a very low failure rate.

Regards to all,

John

Hoss Cain · « **Reply #23 on:** July 29, 2009, 09:51:40 PM »

Quote from: L0U CRANE on July 29, 2009, 01:55:22 PM

Hoss,

I think I met you first time at Oshkosh, or possibly an early Lake Charles... You've always said what you believe, and in just about the same gentle, humble fashion . We need more of that - if someone takes one of your comments as abrasive, that's more their problem than yours. You HAVE put a lot of time, soul and substance into making ours a better hobby for as many as possible... Thanks!

Name rings a bell, Lou, but the face doesn't show. Sorry! Kind of old you know. Must have been Oshkosh, '73, as I was there as the Manpower Director, and Assistant CL Category Director. I never made any of the Lake Charles events.
Thanks for the kind words. Believe you me it's not always "...gentle, humble ..."

Quote

In any CL Scale event, ONLY the pilot is positioned to see the model properly, agreed?

If the short-leash tether is a problem for realism, compared to people-toters, the penalty should consider the flat skid, instead of a severe bank, too, no?

Entry-level events have a problem built-in. It's been mentioned, and referred to, in this thread. We learn how to do things better as we go along. When someone does something obviously "better," others learn, and try to do even better. It isn't so much trophy-hounding, as it is improving in an - at first - kinder and gentler competition. The more the advancement, the more competitive. Within reason, this is a good thing... It doesn't take very long, or very many successes, to blunt the luster of "...another G******n trophy!" Its only real value is as a memento of the occasion...

Your above paragraph explains both digression and advancement very well. Since many will not care to advance, some will. That "some" is what keeps the activity alive.
Now the AMA rules are the "RULES". Close doors, except to the established elites, with those rules, and where will the "some' come from? If those doors are kept open, what does it hurt those already advanced? The more people, even with lesser talent, participating at upper levels will create more interests back at the club level. The more participating, then the more demand for the LHS to carry supplies, demand for better stuff from the industry, and better recognition of the activity.

Attitudes are a personal thing. "Whatever their enjoyment quotient, IMO, ready to run anythings are mostly toys." That is one person's attitude. I doubt he really meant "anythings". HA! I drive a Dodge Ram 2500 Heavy Duty 4 wheel drive Diesel, 4 door, Pick 'em- Up truck. I bought it ready to run. Just made a 4000 mile round trip to my summer place in the U.P. of Michagan. It's not really a toy, but it's MY toy!

In any case I will submit to the Scale Board some proposals to open those doors. I plan to attend the NATs next year and to sponsor/CD a local event next spring. That's the "plan".

Now you know why this thread was originated.

P.S. John Witt, are you any relation to the late Earl Witt, AMA President 1979-80? he was AMA's best for the short time there. Good Man!

Alan Hahn · « **Reply #24 on:** July 30, 2009, 06:37:05 AM »

Let me add a vote for the "electrons".

You can now buy, for $30, a simple timer (jmp-2 or z-tron) which will provide a timed throttle control, and a channel for landing gear, so it sounds like you could at least satisfy some of the minimal fun scale requirements (but maybe I am wrong there).

These timers do have a holdoff which keeps the throttle at any level you want. And of course you don't have to use an electric motor, the timer works well with standard rc servos. So I think here you would have a 2 line system (using our standard control lines), 2 servos (one throttle, one landing gear, one battery pack, or about $50-75 for a setup.

John Witt · « **Reply #25 on:** July 30, 2009, 08:02:52 AM »

Hoss,
No relation to Earl that I know of. My loss, some of us Witts are famous, most of us are just notorious

There's a solution to growing CL scale somewhere here in the minds of the folks who participate in the forum. I, for one, would like to see it happen.

John

Clancy Arnold · « **Reply #26 on:** August 01, 2009, 07:44:50 PM »

I took a walk down the pit row at the NATS today, Aug. 1, 2009 just looking at the handles laid out on the tarmac.

I counted 14 Electronic controlled model handles and 12 three line mechanical control handles. There were about 3 more models brought out after my walk but I got a little too busy as a Judge to be able to take a second walk.

With at or over 50% of the CL models entered in all classes combined using Electronic Control, I think the idea of banning them is a mute point. They are here to stay.

It has been suggested that I sell finished (plug and play) handles. As I have stated many times, which design should I offer? Some want it in a box on their belt, some want it built into a box that will mount on their handle either above, below of beside the handle. Which side? I am left handed!! Most of you would not be able to fly if I get to choose. LOL

Then there are modelers like Dave Evar who take pride in building their own custom handle. See picture below.

Clancy Arnold · « **Reply #27 on:** August 01, 2009, 08:19:46 PM »

I have intentionally made this a separate posting from my comments above.

To prepare myself to judge at the NATS this weekend I felt that I should read the latest Rules.

As the AMA web site notes, the Rules posted on the AMA web site are the official rules.

Therefore to have the latest reading material I downloaded and printed out the Control Line sections from the AMA web site.

Being that I was getting ready to judge scale I started reading the CL and RC Fixed Wing Scale rules. After reading the first page and a half, I stopped and got out paper and pencil and started making notes. Many of the things I saw were typos to be sure but lets get them cleaned up. The typos make the rules hard to read or understand. Some of the problems come about because of the way the pages are formatted. I am not taking any shots at anyone, they are "OUR" rules. That means every modeler who flies in any sanctioned contest should first read the rules pertaining to the event they are going to participate in and if the see any problems, typos or confusing statements, bring them to the attention of the AMA headquarters. If it takes a rules change proposal to correct the rules then as a member of the AMA you see the problem so submit a Rules Change Proposal to correct or clarify the problem. DO NOT expect the Contest Board members to find problem areas and reword the rules to your satisfaction. If you do not tell them in a Rules Change Proposal what you see as a problem and most importantly offer a suggested fix.

Here are the corrections / changes that I will be submitting soon:

AMA 2009 – 2010 Competition Regulations

Scale (Control Line only) corrections needed.

Page SC-2   Paragraph 3. Line 9 – Delete the word “Precision” and add the word “Fun.”

      Paragraph 3. Delete last sentence. Reason: The events 501, 505 and 507 are not in the Events List at the front of the Regulations.

Page SC-3   Add to paragraph 5. how the profile body to wing and tail are to be done. Recommendation: Extend the line of the leading edge and trailing edge of the wing to the center line of the body. Since the flaps are part of the wing they shall be scale size. The Horizontal Stabilizer and or Elevator are to be done in a similar manner. The wing fillets should be extended to the profile body with a scale radius at the profile body.
Note: This is how most modelers do it.

      Paragraph 3. line 9 - change second word from “of” to “or.”

Page SC-4   Clean up layout. Recommendation: Move the top chart down one line so that the last paragraph in the first column is not broken as presently with the phrase “60mph.” being between the two charts.

Page SC-5    Paragraph 6.5. Second sentence. Clarify 3 copies of three Views to expedite judging. Recommendation: Replace with “To expedite judging, up to three (3) sets of the same three-view used as documentation should be provided by the contestant and will only count as one (1) page in the documentation presentation.”

Page SC-8   line 2 - To correct an error. Change from “To break a tie, the best single flight will be added to the static score.” Change to: “To break a tie, the average of the two (2) best flight scores will be added to the static score.”

      Paragraph 2. Line 10 - change “of” to “or”.

Page SC-9   Paragraph 4. 3rd line from the bottom. Delete the word “not”.

Page SC-10 – Paragraph 4.3.d line 3. To clarify statement. Change phrase “that the” to “than a”.

Control line Fun Scale Event 526. Question?
Is there to be a downgrade if the contestant enters a “Profile” model in this event?
The rule book is mute on this point therefore the static score should be reduced if a Profile model is entered.
Note: Many entries in Event 526 are Profile models and Profile models have even won the NATS in the past.

Clancy C. Arnold
AMA12560

Hoss Cain · « **Reply #28 on:** August 01, 2009, 11:23:06 PM »

Emphasis added to quote:

Quote from: Clancy Arnold on August 01, 2009, 07:44:50 PM

I took a walk down the pit row at the NATS today, Aug. 1, 2009 just looking at the handles laid out on the tarmac.

I counted 14 Electronic controlled model handles and 12 three line mechanical control handles. There were about 3 more models brought out after my walk but I got a little too busy as a Judge to be able to take a second walk.

With at or over 50% of the CL models entered in all classes combined using Electronic Control, I think the idea of banning them is a mute point. They are here to stay.
It has been suggested that I sell finished (plug and play) handles. As I have stated many times, which design should I offer? Some want it in a box on their belt, some want it built into a box that will mount on their handle either above, below of beside the handle. Which side? I am left handed!! Most of you would not be able to fly if I get to choose. LOL

Then there are modelers like Dave Evar who take pride in building their own custom handle. See picture below.

Clancy, not being certain of your thoughts above, I wish to add that in no way have I intended that any form multiple lines be eliminated or should the engine, gear, flap control systems be banned. Never even thought such, as you well know that I have purchased two of your systems and I have an old -- from years ago -- 3 line handle which is about ready to help me relearn that on a Ring Master S1A.
OTOH, my push is for Fun and even Profile events to be provided with options that would give the lesser experienced pilots to feel they are not from the wrong side of the tracks if they are flying a conventional two-line system in one of those lesser scale events. The pros. will win, so maybe a penalty for a Takeoff that is held at full throttle, but not a "Must stand alone" rule as now exists.
If any scale type wishes to have local events, which show the activity to the unknowing, then there has to be some lesser allowances to attract those everyday sport fliers that fly 2-line.

Now, speaking of rules:

Quote

Control line Fun Scale Event 526. Question?
Is there to be a downgrade if the contestant enters a “Profile” model in this event?
The rule book is mute on this point therefore the static score should be reduced if a Profile model is entered.
Note: Many entries in Event 526 are Profile models and Profile models have even won the NATS in the past.

Only 10 points available but IMO the rule book is specific:

Scale
SCALE GENERAL

6. Profile Fuselages: Profile fuselages are permitted unless the rules for the particular event specifically state that they are not allowed. The scale judges will apply appropriate downgrading of scores for the non-scale fuselage cross section of the profile fuselage and for the appeara

CONTROL LINE SPORT SCALE
For event 509.

5. Model Requirements: A scale model shall be a replica (copy) of a heavier-than-air, man-carrying aircraft.
..........Extreme deviations from
scale dimensions, particularly those which noticeably alter the resemblance of the model to its prototype, will be heavily penalized. Models which only simulate scale appearance by component shapes resembling a prototype aircraft, but whose basic design bears no relationship to it, are not permitted. The preceding sentence does not necessarily rule out profile fuselages unless other parts of the model are also non-scale. The scale judges will apply appropriate downgrading of scores for the non-scale fuselage cross section of the profile fuselage and for the appearance.

CONTROL LINE, FUN SCALE
For event 526.

1. Eligibility: The contest is open to modeler-built or factory-built CL Scale models. The event rules are identical to event 509, Control Line Sport Scale, except for static judging.

5 Points are 5 Points.

Looking to make some of the big CL meets next year. You have a great whatever of your choice!

Clancy Arnold · « **Reply #29 on:** August 02, 2009, 04:16:46 PM »

Hoss
I knew you were a customer of mine (I do not have so many that I do not recognize the names) and I think you are correct. Fun Scale and Profile scale should be easy for anyone to enter and feel competitive. We had 2 or 3 Scale Stunt Models entered and I think they did quite well. I think at least one trophied.

I will be posting more rules change proposals on here in the future for "OUR" Rules.

I want any one who does fly, or thinks they want to fly, CL Scale to post comments on my proposals or post their own suggested changes. Lets work together to get them RIGHT.

If you have a question or wish to contact me directly please do so, I love this Hobby Sport and want to see it grow.

Clancy Arnold
AMA 12560
Phone: (317) 387-1940
Email: clancyarnold@juno.com

Will Hinton · « **Reply #30 on:** August 03, 2009, 11:13:42 AM »

My two days at the nats as an observer were very helpful; on Friday I set with Clancy Arnold and Richard Schnieder while they judged an AMA entry for static and then moved over to Chuck Snyder and Mike ? (sorry I can't remember Mike's last name, it was the first time I had met him) for static judging a FAI ship.
All these guys coached me on what they were doing and why certain decisions were made (don't ask, I can't tell) and then while they discussed things between themselves I could listen in and get even more insight.
I need to say this; ANYONE who doubts the passion these four have for seeing scale promoted and for establishing fairness in the event as well as being totally unbiased is full of mushy, brown, and foul smelling stuff!
Thank you all for the tremendous job you did and for the great help you so willingly gave me. I can't wait for the FCM weekend August 22 to start applying my new found knowledge.
Blessings,
Will

Clancy Arnold · « **Reply #31 on:** August 03, 2009, 11:51:05 AM »

Will
I could be bribed into judging at the FCM contest.

An autographed copy of one of your books might do it.

Clancy

Will Hinton · « **Reply #32 on:** August 03, 2009, 05:28:59 PM »

I think I can arrange that! (Count on it.)

Clancy Arnold · « **Reply #33 on:** September 01, 2009, 10:03:19 PM »

will
I just finished reading your book!

I understand it is your second book. Jack Sheeks has a copy of your first book and I will borrow it from Jack to read also. Then I will not patiently be waiting until your third book comes out next year.

These are stories about the west and the people that lived there. Great reading material. They are as they say, real page turners.

Clancy

Will Hinton · « **Reply #34 on:** September 14, 2009, 12:04:29 PM »

Clancy,
I goofed, I thought you had the first book already! Oh well, I guess the second can be read first without too much confusion as to character's backgrounds. It just doesn't take the time to build them like the first book.
My apologies, my friend.
Blessings,
Will

Clancy Arnold · « **Reply #35 on:** September 15, 2009, 08:15:54 PM »

Will
I had no problem figuring out the good guys and the bad guys.

I enjoyed it and will get Jack's copy of your first book to read.

How much longer do we have to wait for the third book?

Clancy

john e. holliday · « **Reply #36 on:** September 20, 2009, 11:57:19 AM »

I got both books and Will graciously autographed both of them. I was busy in the shop and didn't get the package to open til bed time. Am up to chapter 4 and told myself to get some sleep for Church this am. DOC Holliday

Author Topic: AMA CL Scale Rules (Read 2017 times)

Alan Hahn