Author Topic: 2010 world Championships (Read 1931 times)

chuck snyder · « **on:** March 03, 2009, 10:43:10 AM »

I received a forwarded email that originated with Narve Jensen--head honcho of scale modeling at the FAI.

The F4B class (control line) has been eliminated at the 2010 World Championships. Lack of teams willing to commit to attending. Looks like they had a similar problem with the 2009 European Championships to be held in Norway. It looks like the agenda for the March FAI meeting includes an item to permanently eliminate C/L scale as a championship event.

Chuck

Allen Goff · « **Reply #1 on:** March 03, 2009, 12:38:07 PM »

Chuck, is this etched in stone. I was looking forward to the possibility of getting on the US team. As was Steve Couch and others. But if that is the case, I'm really sad for the C/L Scale community.

Blessings
Allen

Clancy Arnold · « **Reply #2 on:** March 03, 2009, 12:58:23 PM »

Chuck, Allen
I called Jack Sheeks and read your posts to him.

Jacks reply.

It looks like a bad decision as C/L Scale always scores higher and has placed higher than RC Scale does at the World Championships so there might just be Jealously getting its revenge.

I suggested to Jack that if C/L FAI Scale is no longer a world class event then we should drop FAI Scale and pick back up C/L Precision Scale as an event at the NATS.

Who is going to speak for our side of the argument? Anyone?

Clancy

Dick Byron · « **Reply #3 on:** March 03, 2009, 01:38:35 PM »

This is very disappointing but not a surprise. If Poland is the location of the worlds in 2010 I would suspect that they will pitch a fit as they are the current World champs and the have a good Jr. program. It would not surprise me if they pulled out entirely. I feel the US should pull out too. If we do not field a team that should effectively kill the event.

Trostle · « **Reply #4 on:** March 03, 2009, 04:37:38 PM »

I think it was the 1980 Scale Championships that were in Canada. CL scale was dropped from the venue for an insufficient number of entries. Apparently, the cost of travel was too much for many of the scale teams that otherwise might attend.

Needless to say, I was disappointed as I was to be on the US team for that year with my Martin Baker MB 5.

Fortunately, there was no mention at that time to drop CL Scale from theworld championship schedule. I would hope that there is no serious consideration to now eliminate CL Scale. It is unfortunate that the model press does not do a better job of covering the international competition scene across all of the events. Aeromodeller magazine used to do a great job of doing that with great photographs, detailed blow-by-blow description of the events, stories about the people, lots of technical detail, particularly in the FF events as well as CL Speed and CL Racing. Alas, such coverage went the way of the dinosaurs.

Keith

Dick Byron · « **Reply #5 on:** March 03, 2009, 04:39:30 PM »

England. I think. Keith

chuck snyder · « **Reply #6 on:** March 03, 2009, 05:03:01 PM »

Big Apology--I misread the email. The 2009 European Championships have had F4B deleted.

Chuck

chuck snyder · « **Reply #7 on:** March 03, 2009, 05:07:47 PM »

Again my apolgies. My excuse is that there was a whole string of forwarded emails and I got excited and lost trrack of who said exactly what.
Chuck

Paul Smith · « **Reply #8 on:** March 03, 2009, 07:36:32 PM »

I, too hate to see an event come to an end. To my knowledge, F4B is the first FAI WC event to be dropped.

I have felt from the beginning that it was a mistake for both AMA and the FAI to combine CL & RC Scale as a catagory rather than let each event reside with it's native control system. Combining RC & CL Scale effectively made CL a minor stepchild, a slave to RC masters who dominated the rules. The natural result was an overly expensive and complex set of rules that, as the facts prove, did not attract enough CL interest to survive.

Perhaps now that CL Scale has died at the FAI level, the error could be corrected at the AMA level before it's too late. Bring CL Scale back into the CL Catagory - NOW. No need to mirror a dead horse.

Allen Goff · « **Reply #9 on:** March 03, 2009, 10:01:59 PM »

I am only 3 years into C/L scale, but have alway wondered why it is not flown with the other C/L events at the Nats. Is there more here than meets the eye? I have grown to love C/L scale, and I guess the world will continue to go around what ever happens.

Blessings
Allen

BillLee · « **Reply #10 on:** March 04, 2009, 06:43:23 AM »

IMHO.....

F4B has always been the "red-headed step-child".

At international levels (i.e., World and European Champs), F4B has been included as part of a "Scale" event instead of being included with the rest of the CL categories since the expense of staffing the judges for the event is very steep, and the number of competitors has been small. As an example, for the upcoming EuroChamps, there are five judges listed specific to CL, in addition to the FAI Jury (3) members. If there are not sufficient competitors attending, the expenses cannot be covered. Consequently, F4B becomes an add-on to the RC which at least allows the FAI Jury to be shared. In essence, the F4B event is subsidized by whatever they are "attached" to.

The FAI requires at least four countries to participate to hold a Continental Championships (Paragraph B.2.3 of the Sporting Code), and while I cannot find a direct reference, this minimum number is typically applied for World Championships as well.

We have had the F4B included with the other CL events in at least one World Championships of which I am aware: 1988 in Kiev, Ukraine. As the Assistant Team Manager for the U.S., I will attest that it was a VERY trying trip, for many reasons, including the logistics associated with the giant boxes which the F4B used to pack their models at the time. (A couple of them made the largest F2B box look ordinary by comparison!)

It was proposed at a more recent World Championships (2000 in France if I recall) that F4B be included with the other CL events. The organizers were sufficiently forceful in objecting (due in large part to the increased expense that would have to be subsidized by the other CL events) that the F4B event was returned to its association with the RC event.

As for U.S. competition: I, too, often wonder why the CL Scale portion of the NATs isn't held along with all of the rest of the CL activities. Is there similar justification to the international events? Is it what the modelers themselves want?

Regards,

Bill Lee

Will Hinton · « **Reply #11 on:** March 07, 2009, 06:19:55 PM »

Chuck,
Are you saying that since you misread the forward that FAI c/l scale will STILL be held in 2010?
Will

chuck snyder · « **Reply #12 on:** March 08, 2009, 07:48:38 AM »

Will, I deleted most of the emails before I realized I had misinterpreted the decision to cancel the European Championships, so I cannot double check. I believe it is still an agenda item for an FAI meeting in March (don't know the date) to permanently cancel F4B championships. Part of the reason I was so convinced was that the email described the exact wording of the changes/deletions to the FAI documents that they will vote on.
Chuck

BillLee · « **Reply #13 on:** March 08, 2009, 08:10:11 AM »

Quote from: chuck snyder on March 03, 2009, 10:43:10 AM

I received a forwarded email that originated with Narve Jensen--head honcho of scale modeling at the FAI.

The F4B class (control line) has been eliminated at the 2010 World Championships. Lack of teams willing to commit to attending. Looks like they had a similar problem with the 2009 European Championships to be held in Norway. It looks like the agenda for the March FAI meeting includes an item to permanently eliminate C/L scale as a championship event.

Chuck

I know that Narve Jensen is chairman of the F4 Technical Subcommittee and thereby likely has access to documents that us ordinary folks lack. I would like to see the agenda for the 2009 March Bureau meeting. I have browsed the FAI website and find all of the documents for the Plenary, but nothing for the Bureau meeting. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Bill Lee

Paul Smith · « **Reply #14 on:** March 08, 2009, 10:55:44 AM »

Bill,

Will The United States be represented at this March 2009 FAI meeting?

If so, maybe we should try to get a stay of execution on the F2D fuel shutoff rule. With F4B maybe dead due to lack of participation, F2D won't be far behind if this poisonous rule is not put aside.

The hardware that was marginally functional on a 130 MPH, 2-pound model FAST model with a 36 just doesn't scale down to a 95 MPH, 1-pound, 15-powered airplane. The forces to make it work and the hazard to make it necessary just don't exist.

Sorry to mix scale and combat, but they are issues befere the same FAI.

BillLee · « **Reply #15 on:** March 08, 2009, 11:37:38 AM »

Paul;

Yes, there will be representation at the Bureau and Plenary meetings in March. There will NOT be an F2 Technical Committee meeting since this is the "off year".

As to your concern about F2D shut-offs: the rule is already in effect. It was January 1, 2009. There is no reason to even consider not allowing it to be continued since there is no proven or demonstrated problems with it.

My advice to you: if you would spend half as much time and effort working on a shut-off as you do b*tching and moaning about them, you would be better served and would have a workable system now. Your contention that shut-offs won't "scale down" is completely wrong, as evidenced by several varying systems that have been demonstrated, and at least one Ukrainian vendor now selling models with shut-off included.

Regards,

Bill Lee

Paul Smith · « **Reply #16 on:** March 08, 2009, 01:54:20 PM »

The proof will come when we see the entry levels at this year's F2D contests. If entry levels remain the same or grow, I will be proven wrong.

However, the "track record" in AMA Fast & Slow combat has been that the shutoff rule killed Slow and seriously wounded Fast. The precieved issue could have been dealt with with stronger lines and/or guidelines about not having contests in congested urban areas.

I received an E-mail ad of the Ukrainian shutoff you mentioned. The design is the same one that has been disallowed on the West Coast because it doesn't work in Fast, even with massively higher G forces.

The analogy to F4B is that in Scale they passively accepted declining entries rather actively try to ammend to rules to increase participation.

BillLee · « **Reply #17 on:** March 08, 2009, 08:20:00 PM »

I have no doubts that entry this year will decrease. There are always a certain number of competitors "out there" just like you who would rather b*tch & moan about the rules than get on with flying the event.

As to Slow and Fast: the shut-offs had virtually nothing to do with those events' demise. Slow was already dead, long before AMA wisely instituted a shut-off requirement. And Fast became a dinosaur with performance far beyond the financial and physical means of most all. The death-knell of Fast was the introduction of the Nelson combat motor, which suddenly obsoleted all of the then-existing equipment and required a large investment of money to stay competitive. The event has essentially died since only a few stalwarts are willing to make the investment.

Your suggestions for how the "perceived issue" could have been addressed were, in fact , considered. And while I am certain that you will think otherwise, they simply did not address the over-riding concern of an F2D model getting cut loose and ending up in a sensitive location.

No, Paul, however you want to try and spin the situation, F2D shut-offs are not going away any time soon. If you don't want to deal with them, then I expect you will give up the event, just as you apparently did Fast Combat when they were introduced many years ago. For you and many others, it appears that a shut-off is only a convenient excuse for not flying. Too bad. For you.

Chris McMillin · « **Reply #18 on:** March 11, 2009, 12:56:52 AM »

I love it, Bill. Thanks for everything!
Chris...

Hoss Cain · « **Reply #19 on:** March 11, 2009, 10:46:49 PM »

Quote from: Allen Goff on March 03, 2009, 10:01:59 PM

I am only 3 years into C/L scale, but have alway wondered why it is not flown with the other C/L events at the Nats. Is there more here than meets the eye? I have grown to love C/L scale, and I guess the world will continue to go around what ever happens.

Blessings
Allen

While I have no clue as to the workings of FAI CL Scale, I do have some remembrances of how AMA Scale Events came under the Scale Contest Board.
"In the beginning the AMA Scale Model world was without form and without shape." Then, BEHOLD, arose before ye, one gentleman of both national and international scale fame, who carried the banner for AMA to remove all scale events into a category with equal weight of the then Control Line, Free Flight, Radio Control, etc. Then with much splendor, such was declared to be and so it was.
Now this gentleman secured for the Scale Category a contract with AMA that stated the SCALE CATEGORY would have domain and control over any type of model which, in competition, was static scale judged. The only exception was Formula One Pylon Racing which at that time had a somewhat rudimentary form of Scale judging.
This came very much to my attention back in the late '80s - early '90s period when I was involved in RC Scale Warbird Racing. I submitted rule proposals to get the event into just the SUPPLEMENTAL or PROVISIONAL RULES, however by prior agreement only the Scale Contest Board had jurisdiction. While the Pylon Board had no objections to the event, Mr. SB Chairman wanted only his scale models, yet would NOT give up the event to the Pylon CB. There were other items similar to this one.
Of course that SCB chairman of great renown was NOT to be replaced by the AMA President, even though the SCB stated that it was NOT the job of a Contest Board to PROMOTE new events or model aviation, just to provide the rules. To me allowing a new set of supp/prov rules in the book for a test would serve all levels of model aviation along with providing the rules.
So since no one apparently cares enough to fight to get CL Scale back where it belongs, then in AMA, it will continue as the so-called redheaded "step" child.

Unfortunately - to me anyway -- there are some who think only for what they do, and not for the promotion of the sport of model aviation. Darn, actually I wish I could be like that!

chuck snyder · « **Reply #20 on:** April 02, 2009, 05:42:44 AM »

I learned today that the FAI voted to eliminate F4B as a championship event. The rules will remain in the "book" and contests can still be held. I personally think they are a very good set of rules. The Eastern Europeans were the major remaining players in the event and I understand they have lost support for their teams. Looks like the escalating costs, and travel hassles, have contributed to the reduced participation.

RIP C/L scale???

Will Hinton · « **Reply #21 on:** April 02, 2009, 07:05:07 AM »

Good morning Chuck,
Maybe "RIP F4B" at the worlds but it looks to me like the interest here at home is really catching hold. That would be a great thing if c/l scale could continue to grow here in the states!
I know the Columbus thing last year was a disappointment, but let's all hang in there and keep trying to promote it for a while yet. FCM will continue to hold the scake events for as long as we can get flyers!

Blessings,
Will

Dick Byron · « **Reply #22 on:** April 02, 2009, 07:57:36 AM »

Well Chuck this is sad news, however not surprising. The hassle of model boxes, overseas cost, questionable international judging have all contributed to its demise. I wonder what the Nats will bring? I have made plans to attend this year. What shall I bring?

chuck snyder · « **Reply #23 on:** April 02, 2009, 08:22:23 AM »

Dick,
I don't have any inside information about what will be offered at the Nats. I guess we'll just have to watch the announcements on the AMA web site. I like the FAI rules and flight plan and hope it continues to be offered. Most of the FAI models would qualify for Designer Scale if people wanted to focus on that event.

Paul Smith · « **Reply #24 on:** April 02, 2009, 07:15:26 PM »

Chuck,

While you like the F4B rules, that puts you in what may be the world's smallest club.

If there were 5 flyers from 5 different nations who wanted to fly the event, it wouldn't have been dropped. But not even 5 stepped forward on this entire planet (Earth).

That makes F4B unique as the only event in either Control Line or Free Flight that has been dropped for lack of interest. I can't speak for RC, they may have dropped an event at some time, but I didn't hear of it.

FAI events have rules that are rigerous to comply with. It's darn hard for an American to event put together a working model for F1A, F1B, F1C, F2A, or F2C. But the incentive of a World Championship is enough to get them to make the effort. It really says something when only four nations can field a scale team.

The fact that the event failed in not in question. The only question is why.

I believe the rules, which were just sort of "RC Scale with a bellcrank" were waa-aay-yy too permissive of big, expensive models. People couldn't build them, house them, take them to the field, or fly them to WC's. The "retract gear rule" is the prime example. Not only is there a bonus for having them, but also a crippling penalty for NOT having them. That sort of thing proved to be just too much for the people who fly Control Line.

At this point, the event is gone for good. The supporters should have taken action as soon as participation got close to the "fatal four".

Trostle · « **Reply #25 on:** April 03, 2009, 01:58:40 AM »

Quote from: Paul Smith on April 02, 2009, 07:15:26 PM

(clip)

At this point, the event is gone for good. The supporters should have taken action as soon as participation got close to the "fatal four".

Is there something written somewhere that states that the FAI CL Scale is really gone? Or is it that it has just been canceled from the schedule this year?

This is not the first time that CL Scale has been canceled from the World Championship schedule for lack of entries to qualify for a World Championship competition. It happened when the Scale Championships were held in Canada in whichever year it was, like in 1980 or 1981.

Keith

chuck snyder · « **Reply #26 on:** April 12, 2009, 06:30:13 PM »

Update/change

There will be F4B in 2010 in Poland, but it will not be held therafter. Reasoning being that when the Poles bid for and received the right to host the 2010 W/C F4B was included. Still contingent upon enough teams entering.

Dick Byron · « **Reply #27 on:** April 13, 2009, 06:28:12 AM »

I told you they would pitch a bi**h. I guess that is good.