Author Topic: Possible change to SSR rules? (Read 2054 times)

BillLee · « **on:** June 22, 2012, 02:58:37 PM »

The guys in Dallas have picked up on Super Slow Rat. But in doing so, they felt that a slight modification to the rules was needed: allow shut-offs.

So the Dallas rules are the NCLRA rules with the added ability to have a shut-off, but any pit stop where the shut-off was used will NOT count as one of the required pit stops.

Question: does this sound like a change that NCLRA should make to the NCLRA rules?

Bill

john e. holliday · « **Reply #1 on:** June 23, 2012, 09:29:21 AM »

My thinking is that all racing events except Class I Mouse should have shut offs. Mainly for safety reasons.

Jed Kusik · « **Reply #2 on:** June 23, 2012, 11:33:31 AM »

Not allowing the free use of shutoffs in all events is the kind of foolish narrow minded thinking that keeps people from
progressing and enjoying raceing to the fullest.
Jed Kusik

Les Akre · « **Reply #3 on:** June 23, 2012, 12:59:50 PM »

Yes, we should be allowing shutoffs to used for the purpose of safety and pit stops in every NCLRA event. It's no coincidence that many of the "Pilot circle antics" are reduced considerably in events where shutoffs are allowed. Shutoff kits have been available from Brodak for several years now. Now is the time!

Les

BillLee · « **Reply #4 on:** June 23, 2012, 01:38:38 PM »

Quote from: Jed Kusik on June 23, 2012, 11:33:31 AM

Not allowing the free use of shutoffs in all events is the kind of foolish narrow minded thinking that keeps people from
progressing and enjoying raceing to the fullest.
Jed Kusik

To paraphrase the statement as a response:

"This is the foolish narrow minded thinking that represents a total lack of understanding of the breadth of CL Racing."

Bill

BillLee · « **Reply #5 on:** June 23, 2012, 01:53:50 PM »

Quote from: Les Akre on June 23, 2012, 12:59:50 PM

Yes, we should be allowing shutoffs to used for the purpose of safety and pit stops in every NCLRA event. It's no coincidence that many of the "Pilot circle antics" are reduced considerably in events where shutoffs are allowed. Shutoff kits have been available from Brodak for several years now. Now is the time!

Les

Les, thanks you for a reasoned response rather than the ad hominem attacks seen above.

Several of us discussed this very thing. SSR, Fox Race, Foxberg/Goldberg, and several others share a common component of racing: intelligent fuel management. In all of those events a certain number of stops is required and with a no-shut-off rule, the fuel management becomes an important component of a successful model and a successful race.

In Dallas we argued about simply allowing shut-offs just like so many other racing events and it was recognized that to do so would change the character of SSR into "Just Another Racing Event". While I am certain that some would prefer it that way, others recognized the usefulness of a shut-off for safety reasons (as Doc alluded), or after a race is complete, or (as some suggested) to allow for a pit stop to correct a bad setting, accepting the time penalty associated with the extra stop in order to perhaps save an engine or ...

Simply put: SSR with fuel-management is simply not the same event as SSR with unfettered use of shut-offs. And the real question is: what way should it be?

While it is of no real concern that an unofficial event has local rules (that's as it should be), since SSR is an NCLRA event, it makes some, perhaps limited, sense to make the change to the NCLRA rules. Hence the original post (knowing full well that some will take the opportunity for personal attacks instead of addressing the question).

Les Akre · « **Reply #6 on:** June 23, 2012, 06:05:02 PM »

I didn't see it as an Ad Hominem attack...more like a strongly worded statement.

That aside. I've seen plenty of "intense" situations with pilots scrambling to get sorted out when someones engine unexpectedly quits, usually just after overtaking another airplane. I'm not talking beginners here, this is with experienced pilots.

I've always thought that with all of the racing events we have, we literally have an event that covers a racer on every skill level. Now there is an overlap of performance levels to a certain extent in some events, but by and large we essentially go from simple to advanced, to open type events. Of course the pecking order of which events stack up in what order can get somewhat blurred at times, and here is where we might be able to do a better job of establishing an event order from simple to open. Many newbies, have started out in SSR, only to find that it can be a difficult event where the fuel management issue is concerned. Even us "Pros" have had trouble with this event on occasion, and I can relay many instances of overruns resulting in DQ's as finding that "correct" tank capacity can be at times elusive. In this case, a shutoff would make things a bit easier, and in what many consider a beginners type event, isn't this what we want?

I still believe that SSR and Clown Race can both benefit from the use of shutoffs during a race. I'd rather choose when to come in for a pit stop, than leave it to chance. It's safer all around too.

Les

bill bischoff · « **Reply #7 on:** June 23, 2012, 06:47:32 PM »

Being somewhat of an "insider" on this discussion, I must admit that my opinion on this has not changed, but it has diminished in its intensity recently. As a pilot, I am always concerned about running out of fuel at an inopportune time, like in the middle of a pass, so in that regard using a shutoff is better than not. I certainly think shutoffs are good for safety reasons, and they do make getting a needle setting easier. Based on what I have observed, getting the right number of laps is a big challenge for less experienced racers. However (I know this will sound self-important), with the simple means for consistently and reliably achieving a short tank of fuel we recently came up with (see my SSR post), exact tank size is not as critical as it used to be. Still, in spite of its perceived complexity, having and using a shutoff will make the event easier for everyone. I guess the real question is are we trying to attract new blood, and if so what do THEY think? I imagine the die-hards will race no matter what the rules are.

bill bischoff · « **Reply #8 on:** June 23, 2012, 06:56:00 PM »

Reading what Les just posted brought up a question. Per the NCLRA rules, what happens if you over run in Fox race/SSR? Locally, the clock keeps running for one lap past the second pit stop. I gather that if you over run at the NATS, too bad, sucks to be you!

What's the story?

don Burke · « **Reply #9 on:** June 23, 2012, 07:40:30 PM »

I think that;s covered in the AMA CL racing rules.

9. Races.
9.1. Preliminary qualifying heats shall determine the best fliers to be taken to the final races. The individual events specify the number and length of both the qualifying heats and final races. Pit stops, if required, must be made before the conclusion of the final lap of any heat or race. The Contest Director, at his or her discretion, may conduct races varying from these procedures to accommodate smaller contests, etc., provided such variations are known to all contestants prior to the first heat in the event.

don Burke · « **Reply #10 on:** June 23, 2012, 07:51:59 PM »

Quote from: Les Akre on June 23, 2012, 12:59:50 PM

Yes, we should be allowing shutoffs to used for the purpose of safety and pit stops in every NCLRA event. It's no coincidence that many of the "Pilot circle antics" are reduced considerably in events where shutoffs are allowed. Shutoff kits have been available from Brodak for several years now. Now is the time!

Les

For a few years SCAR has allowed shutoffs in all classes. They must NOT be used for a normal pit stop in events that ban their use, only in case of a "safety issue". It's up to the CD to determine if the use was justified. So far, in my memory the issue has never come up. But we have had inadvertent shutoffs on takeoff with the team taking the DQ hit, basically done on the honor system.

I don't see allowing shutoffs in SSR as a positive thing, fuel management is part of the event. Bill Bischoff has come up with a vent system that handily takes care of that. If I have an an engine/tank setup that gets over 50 laps, I will run the engine during the 2 min warmup then not refuel before the start. Works for me. THEN before the next race remember to build a slightly smaller tank to allow for brain fade when I forget to not fill up before the start.

Les Akre · « **Reply #11 on:** June 23, 2012, 10:13:04 PM »

I find it interesting that the justification for not allowing shutoffs during a race is now "fuel management is part of the event". The reasoning years ago when Sport Race first came about was that it would be too difficult for a novice/newbie/or whomever to build or understand the use of a shutoff. There were no commercial Shutoffs that were suitable for a profile fuselage Control Line racing plane.
Unlike B TR, Clown Race, and F2C, SSR is not a fixed tank size event yet we find we have to build a tank to a very specific size due to the NO Shutoff rule to avoid an overrun.
In all the SSR testing I did several years ago, one of the things I found out was that there are variables that determine what size tank is needed. Just changing engines from one manufacturer to another can be the difference between getting enough laps, not enough, or running over. Prop size and type was another.

As Bill Bischoff said, us die-hards will race no matter what the rules are. However, I think with Brodak marketing Fuel Shutoffs, it would be simpler for the newcomer to install a shutoff than make a specific size Fuel Tank.

Well, that's my opinion for what it's worth.

Les

bill bischoff · « **Reply #12 on:** June 23, 2012, 11:05:30 PM »

Quote from: don Burke on June 23, 2012, 07:40:30 PM

I think that;s covered in the AMA CL racing rules.

9. Races.
9.1. Preliminary qualifying heats shall determine the best fliers to be taken to the final races. The individual events specify the number and length of both the qualifying heats and final races. Pit stops, if required, must be made before the conclusion of the final lap of any heat or race. The Contest Director, at his or her discretion, may conduct races varying from these procedures to accommodate smaller contests, etc., provided such variations are known to all contestants prior to the first heat in the event.

True enough, but this is not an AMA event, and as you say, the CD may deviate from the rules. So I will ask again, what do they do at the NATS?

BillLee · « **Reply #13 on:** June 24, 2012, 06:24:57 AM »

Quote from: Les Akre on June 23, 2012, 10:13:04 PM

...SSR is not a fixed tank size event...

Uh, .... Les, yes it is, although of absolutely no importance since the allowed maximum tank size (2 oz) is far too big.

Quote from: Les Akre on June 23, 2012, 10:13:04 PM

... that there are variables that determine what size tank is needed.

Is that any big new revelation? Has racing EVER been an event where you didn't need to practice ahead of time to work out the variables?

I'll repeat: allowing a shut-off to be used for racing purposes in an event makes it a substantially different event. SSR, evolved from Fox Race, is an event where, for whatever the initial reasons, is a fuel management event. Adding shut-offs for racing purposes will not suddenly make it more attractive to newcomers, it will not change change the ultimate winners, it will only make it "just another racing event". Ho-hum.

OTOH, adding shut-offs for safety reasons is sufficient justification for allowing them, IMHO. Right now, SSR and Fox Race are the only NCLRA events which do not allow them.

don Burke · « **Reply #14 on:** June 24, 2012, 01:47:38 PM »

I'm sure there are at least a few local "FOXBERG" type events, not NCLRA rules, that don't allow them to keep it from being "just another racing event.". The only similar event run around SOCAl has been LAFOX. FOX initally evolved locally into LAFOX with OS 25 LAs with and FOX race props because of the FOX engine's running/starting woes. NCLRA at about the same time grabbed the ball, created SSR, and allowed a pandora's box of engines, venturis, and props which has all ready turned it into "just another racing event" IMO. Although for me the ban on shutoffs keeps it interesting.

Scott Jenkins · « **Reply #15 on:** July 01, 2012, 12:09:41 PM »

from a safety standpoint it should be considered from a rule interpertation standpoint it needs to be explicit In clear terminology cast in stone so to speak

Scott

PaulGibeault · « **Reply #16 on:** July 05, 2012, 02:06:09 PM »

Speaking as a PILOT....absolutely it should be done! My (aging) life is getting too short to have to deal with running out tanks just to get a needle setting. Shut-offs would cause pre-flight testing to be minimized. This helps the CD get on with running his heats.
The (few) flight accidents I've been involved in were related to NOT having shut-offs in Clown racing. YEP, just as a model is passing, it quits & brings both models down... It's much more noticeable when the models are fast & evenly matched.
Also, when I was 15, the first G/Y racer I ever built had a shut-off. I NEVER for one minute ever thought it was "too complicated" to install. And YES, the odd one fails (even happened last year to me during a contest), but going by the 'faulty logic', we ought not to have tanks either because sometimes they leak, right?? I hope the new NCLRA exec. will correct that fault...
Keep 'em flyin'

Paul G.

Quote from: BillLee on June 22, 2012, 02:58:37 PM

The guys in Dallas have picked up on Super Slow Rat. But in doing so, they felt that a slight modification to the rules was needed: allow shut-offs.

So the Dallas rules are the NCLRA rules with the added ability to have a shut-off, but any pit stop where the shut-off was used will NOT count as one of the required pit stops.

Question: does this sound like a change that NCLRA should make to the NCLRA rules?

Bill

bob whitney · « **Reply #17 on:** October 04, 2012, 05:22:31 PM »

Motorman, there is nothing saying that u cant have a shutoff on the plane . and u can disconnect it for the race

john e. holliday · « **Reply #18 on:** October 05, 2012, 08:51:40 AM »

It is easy to see if someone has tripped his shut off on purpose. Most tanks I beleive run in the 25-35 lap range. Now you just pitted a plane with 5 laps to go. Now, with the shut off as soon as the laps are in you could shut down and save time/wear on plane/equipment.

don Burke · « **Reply #19 on:** October 10, 2012, 12:22:37 PM »

Since our local rules have allowed shutoffs for "safety" purposes, all my airplanes (except Mouse I with integral tanks) have them. With 2-3 years experience allowing them for "safety" I have yet to see one used for that purpose. The line tangles that I have been involved with or have witnessed have been over so fast that IMO there isn't a pilot alive that can react fast enough to save ANYTHING!

If we go that a locale that does not allow them for "safety", such as the NATS, I just route the fuel feed around the shutoff.

A plus has been that it allows clearing the circle quickly after a race, and has saved an engine during testing that would have otherwise had to run out the tank due a pitman's ineptitude!

Tom_Fluker · « **Reply #20 on:** October 10, 2012, 03:18:12 PM »

Don't really have a dog in the fight, but did get to fly the event this past weekend. Had a great time (thanks to Bill and Mike for letting me fly).

The shutoff would be nice just to get out of the way at the end. Otherwise, not having it does require a bit of communication from the pitman to the pilot. It worked out fine just getting a signal that we were close to running out. I didn't see any issue changing flying style to avoid getting into a bind.

The idea of having the shutoff there but not counting as a pitstop if used is interesting. It does give you the flexibility to get out of trouble or adjust for a bad (really bad I guess) run if needed. Definitely adds to the interesting factor to strategy in a race. Hopefully, no one would miss the needle so much they actually need to take a pit to correct it and still get a better time.

Tom

don Burke · « **Reply #21 on:** October 10, 2012, 08:10:37 PM »

Not having the use of a shutoff during a race ads a lot to the racing IMO. Use during practice while trying to get a needle is also sometimes an engine saver.
But, without one, the team needs to practice a little more than usual. If you watch Les Akre set up his SSR or Clown he takes MANY flights and miniscule needle tweeks to get it quitting where he wants it to. His planes never seems to make a full gliding lap, he's a master of doing it.

Again shutoffs make it "....just another racing event..."

Dave Hull · « **Reply #22 on:** October 17, 2012, 08:41:11 PM »

I kind of like the existing rules with the "safety use only" clause added. I have shutoffs on both my SSRs. Great for testing, and as Tom pointed out, speeding up your contest if allowed in advance by allowing the pilot to shut down after the race.

There are times when it may be hard to know for sure if one was inadvertently tripped. One happened to us just last weekend, I believe in Goodyear. After 3-4 laps the engine just quit. Seemed like the shutoff tripped, but in fact the plug was gone. I'm used to the engine running until the pit and then finding the plug is dead. So just having the shutoff has some liabilities for a user and the ED. In my case, I reroute the line to avoid the shutoff if flying at the Nats. You can do that right after a needle flight with no problem.

As far as whether they add safety if used normally in a race--absolutely. The pilot can avoid conflict when setting up to pit. Do they add safety after something starts going wrong? Maybe. At SSR speeds and if the pilot is concentrating more on the race and the traffic than just watching his plane it would. At Clown speeds I am at a 50% success rate. I have crashed trying to avoid takeoff traffic (wingover on takeoff by slower plane) and simultaneously hit the shutoff, and I succeeded in a separate case. So I figure I am ahead one airplane and wish I was good enough to be able to say ahead two!

As far as sources, you can get a generic shutoff that easily fits an SSR from Brodak or from Dale Long. Dale has different sizes, and either a pull to trip or a push to trip option.

McSlow