Author Topic: Middlesex Modelers New Event (Read 2864 times)

C.T. Schaefer · « **on:** January 15, 2014, 07:07:41 PM »

After many years of enjoying some great racing events in our area we have decided to take a look at where we are now and where we are heading in the future and create an event that more of us will be able to enjoy for a few more years. The new event is called 'Heavy Metal' and is designed to enable a great many different planes to compete. Any plane that will meet the rules for slow rat will be eligible although we will allow a Clown type plane to compete this next season in order to see how it will work. We also encourage semi-scale types such as Big Goodyear, Warbird, Foxberg.
The rules are as follows: 1. Engines up to .40 allowed
2. Aircraft must meet Slow Rat specs or larger. Flying Clown types provisionally ok.
3. Lines 60' x .018 stranded cable for engines .21 - .40 ..... 60' x .015 for engines under .21
4. All races will be 100 laps with 2 required pit stops.
5. SPEED LIMIT will be 19 seconds x 7 laps.

This should encourage guys to get out the hardware and race it in a competitive setting. We are hoping to get lots of data this season to see if any tweaking is needed. If there is interest I will post our 2014 schedule on the forum. Tom S.

john e. holliday · « **Reply #1 on:** January 16, 2014, 09:57:14 AM »

Hope you require the controlling of the speed by use of props and not venturis. One of the reasons I have not got my QR's out lately. Hope it works for you.

kenneth cook · « **Reply #2 on:** January 17, 2014, 03:33:09 AM »

John, wouldn't the speed limit and the pit stops dictate the venturi factor? I'm just curious. Ken

john e. holliday · « **Reply #3 on:** January 17, 2014, 09:14:14 AM »

Yes the venture size will dictate the speed and range. But, some of us are not machinists. I think speed can be better controlled the prop used. I thin fuel is already set at 10% nitro. Look at speed limit combat. The rules say the speed has to be slower than such and such seconds for two laps. If they don't get the speed slower they lose the match or get a rematch to get it right. We could do the same in racing if the powers to be would do it. I do not like the venture requirements for racing. I remember when Ken Smith was trying to promote B Team Racing, he wanted a speed limit of 90 mph max. But, racing is racing and speed rules. Our local track used to run what was called Enduro Racing for front wheel drive cars. If during the race a car was clocked faster then the time set for doing a lap, they lost their position of finish at end of the race.

C.T. Schaefer · « **Reply #4 on:** January 17, 2014, 06:12:00 PM »

We have had a lot of fun and success with our Sport Clown event. Speed is capped at 22 x 8 and 140 laps for 7.5 minutes. So far, there have been some good races with 136-139 laps. You have to run a very good race to achieve that! I made a boo-boo once with a 142 and lost! Haven't come close since.

The beauty of this formula adapted for 'bigger' planes is there are no restrictions on equipment. Just bring your junk and make it fit the race requirements. The challenge is to run a (very elusive) perfect race. I expect a great variety of planes/equipment.

BillLee · « **Reply #5 on:** January 17, 2014, 08:07:07 PM »

Doc, for someone who doesn't race, you are quite vocal about what needs to be done with racing.

You gave up TQR and use the excuse of a venturi size, While one of the best suppliers of TQR venturis is within a short distance of where you live. There is no need to be a machinist to have a proper venturi for TQR. I think you're using that as an excuse for not competing. We all lose when you go that route: you because you're not enjoying the competition, and everyone else because ... you're not enjoying the competition.

As I mentioned in the other thread you started on the topic, racing without the possibility of "me going faster than you" is simply not racing. Yes, it can be enjoyable, but call it something else. The "perfect race" has to have all three facets: better pitting, better flying, better speed. Take out any of them and it's something else, not racing.

You cited Ken Smith's attempt at speed-limited B-TR. It was tried, it achieved nothing. Not that the event otherwise has been successful either, unfortunately, but at least getting rid of the speed limit brought a number of competitors in that were not there.

People don't race because it takes EFFORT to win. Too many want to be competitive without the EFFORT. No amount of fictitious event finagling will ever make that FACT go away.

C.T. Schaefer · « **Reply #6 on:** January 18, 2014, 08:09:46 AM »

Bill, For what it's worth, I heartily agree with your last paragraph! As for the rest.....well. Although I knew there would be some commentary, my main intent was to inform our fellow competitors that we have something a bit different for them to try. I know that it will be a fun and challenging event.
You well know that myself and my club members/racing buddies are no strangers to high speed racing. Our able bodied members are dwindling. John Ross is very ill. Jim Gall won't fly the 'big fast jobs' anymore cause they pull too hard. Al gets to fly his slow rat a couple of times a year solo because there is no one else to race with. Brian moved away to S.C. As for myself, I find a 140 lap race at 17 x7 a lot more work than it used to be! So, I am trying to grab a couple of groups of good flyers/modelers from not too far away from us with this new event that has a looser rules structure. Will it work? If the guys come, it will work. If not it will be just like what's going on now. Not only here but all over the country. Please use the debate forum for quibbling. Thanks, Tom

PS One last comment. Our Nats rep, Jimmy, has assured me that at the last several Nats meets no one has checked the tank size in NCLRA Clown. What's up with that!

Les Akre · « **Reply #7 on:** January 19, 2014, 11:05:41 PM »

Carl

Good luck with your new event. I hope it brings the increased participation you expect.

Please share the results after your clubs first race. I'm quite interested in how the Clown Racer will fare competing against the 300sq. in. Slow Rat type airframes.
The speed limit portion of the event probably works best if approached individually. It shouldn't matter how it is approached, venturi, prop, etc., as long as the result is achieved.

BTW, Speaking of Clown Race. I've never been to any contest, Nat's or otherwise where Fuel tank capacity had been checked. If you guy's up in the North East check Clown Race tank capacity at your contests, what methods are you using? How often do you check?

Les

don Burke · « **Reply #8 on:** January 20, 2014, 05:37:12 AM »

Quote from: Les Akre on January 19, 2014, 11:05:41 PM

Carl

Good luck with your new event. I hope it brings the increased participation you expect.

Please share the results after your clubs first race. I'm quite interested in how the Clown Racer will fare competing against the 300sq. in. Slow Rat type airframes.
The speed limit portion of the event probably works best if approached individually. It shouldn't matter how it is approached, venturi, prop, etc., as long as the result is achieved.

BTW, Speaking of Clown Race. I've never been to any contest, Nat's or otherwise where Fuel tank capacity had been checked. If you guy's up in the North East check Clown Race tank capacity at your contests, what methods are you using? How often do you check?

Les

Checking tanks is necessary if exceptional performance is observed. I prefer to depend on the integrity of the few of us who are still taking the time to participate.

BillLee · « **Reply #9 on:** January 20, 2014, 06:28:36 AM »

Quote from: don Burke on January 20, 2014, 05:37:12 AM

... I prefer to depend on the integrity of the few of us who are still taking the time to participate.

The right answer, Don, and one that most everyone adheres to.

Tom, this same lament has been heard before. To answer it, I offered to bring all necessary measuring equipment to the NATs to do the measurement when Brian was to be the NATs director and when we tried very diligently to get Motorman to be the technical inspector. But nobody was interested in helping, and those of us who actually showed up to compete followed Don's answer above: trust in the ethics and honesty of our fellow competitors.

(BTW, the offer still stands: since I am the current NATs champion, I will bring the model and the measuring equipment anywhere I am going if somebody asks to see it and measure it. Since I have already done that, I am confident in the results.

) )

I applaud your efforts to accommodate your club's needs. I am sure almost every club in the nation (maybe: the world?) shares your situation. Virtually all of the AMA rule book events are dead for the very reasons you cite. I do believe, however, that there are alternatives other than imposing a speed limit on the event that don't detract from the intent (to accommodate the aging guys and those with lesser "intensity" for racing). Many are in that 22/7 range of performance, but ALL require that magic elixir: "effort".

IMHO, as I have stated above, a speed limit emasculates the event. Yes, it is one way to control the event to keep the performance at an agreeable level, but there are others as well that, simply, I prefer.

Best of luck to you and your New Jersey guys. One of my fond memories was visiting you and your site with Doc and Raul a number of years ago. A fine bunch of folks, a nice flying site...

C.T. Schaefer · « **Reply #10 on:** January 20, 2014, 06:54:46 AM »

Bill, Good explanation on the tank thing. When Brian and I did the Nats (03 I think) all tanks were checked and we had to pull the head on the Fox. Different times/different needs. Our speed trials organization uses the honor method also. haven't heard any grumbling there either.
Yes. Effort is the key factor in success no matter what you are doing. For me, that's the fun part. Winning has become secondary to just running a good race.

BTW...... Raul and Doc are the current record holders in Sport Clown. Raul reacted with much gusto when the clock stopped. He ran to the center and wrapped his arms around Doc, almost knocking him over. The whole field erupted in applause! Great moment in MM racing history.

We are looking forward to a fun season. Tom
PS I will try to keep people 'posted' as things develop.

Al Ferraro · « **Reply #11 on:** January 20, 2014, 10:48:47 PM »

Bill. Being the Genie is out of the bottle
(Checking tanks is necessary if exceptional performance is observed.)
Back at the 2008 Nats. I was in a qualifier race with you and Less. We all got up in the air at the same time. I was the first one to come down and pit at 44 laps, which was the norm for my set up. Your model came down about 7 laps later which put you at 51 laps. I've seen 51 laps before from good running 15s. Less' entry came in about 9 laps after you, which put him at 60 laps per tank. That is something I've never seen before,especially in a three up. I haven't been to the Nats in a few years but have been told that the TZs that everyone is running now are getting mid to high 50s laps per tank full. That is spectacular performance! That's why everybody in NJ is wondering about the tanks. We're talking about the Nationals and Tim Stone checked the tanks in 2006. After the 2008 Nats and the exceptional performances that occurred there, the issue of tank checking has been brought up on the forms and at the Nats and has yet to be addressed. I'm all for the honor system, however if something is questioned it's in everybody's best interest to validate the performance. This same situation happened to me at Brodak and I was happy to have the CD check my tank in front of the 20 competitors. I wanted everyone to appreciate that the performance that was obtained was legit. I hope to get back out to the Nationals in the near future to compete.
Al

don Burke · « **Reply #12 on:** January 21, 2014, 02:20:47 AM »

The NCLRA rules specify a 1 oz tank, 29.6cc. BUT and it's a big one, there's a tolerance of "5%+" with 31 cc the max. Taking advantage of that can explain "exceptional" range.

Charlie Johnson · « **Reply #13 on:** January 21, 2014, 10:39:20 AM »

Here in California, as well as at the Nationals, we use Ritch's Brew as the standard contest fuel (10% nitro and a minimum of 20% oil). Many other commercial fuels contain less than 20% oil, many with 18%, some with 16% and I have one that has just 12% oil. Provided your engine will tolerate a fuel with a very low oil content there are some extra laps in a non-standard fuel. The +5% tolerance (31cc max) amounts to about two laps with a TZ 18. These two factors together may mean you're putting in laps at the 7.5 minute mark when the competition is pitting.

BillLee · « **Reply #14 on:** January 21, 2014, 01:40:32 PM »

Quote from: Al Ferraro on January 20, 2014, 10:48:47 PM

Bill. Being the Genie is out of the bottle
(Checking tanks is necessary if exceptional performance is observed.)
Back at the 2008 Nats. I was in a qualifier race with you and Less. We all got up in the air at the same time. I was the first one to come down and pit at 44 laps, which was the norm for my set up. Your model came down about 7 laps later which put you at 51 laps. I've seen 51 laps before from good running 15s. Less' entry came in about 9 laps after you, which put him at 60 laps per tank. That is something I've never seen before,especially in a three up. I haven't been to the Nats in a few years but have been told that the TZs that everyone is running now are getting mid to high 50s laps per tank full. That is spectacular performance! That's why everybody in NJ is wondering about the tanks. We're talking about the Nationals and Tim Stone checked the tanks in 2006. After the 2008 Nats and the exceptional performances that occurred there, the issue of tank checking has been brought up on the forms and at the Nats and has yet to be addressed. I'm all for the honor system, however if something is questioned it's in everybody's best interest to validate the performance. This same situation happened to me at Brodak and I was happy to have the CD check my tank in front of the 20 competitors. I wanted everyone to appreciate that the performance that was obtained was legit. I hope to get back out to the Nationals in the near future to compete.
Al

Hello, Al;

Sure do miss you at the NATs!

We have seen just exactly what you recall: the OS TZ in EVERY model where I have seen it run has had exceptional laps! The first time I can remember was Bradley in Florida Rebel Rally at 17.5 or better and 56-60 laps a tank. I was running Russ Green's model with a Fora F2D engine and we were lucky to get 42-44 laps at 18-flat! I was astounded. Only a bad pit by Jim allowed us to win that race and we turned the best we ever ran with the Fora, something like 160+ laps.

I'm pretty sure Les is or has also run the TZ, and he has the same sort of experiences. Perhaps he will chime in here.

Later, McCollum bought an OS TZ and it is in the model I now use and with which we won the NATs the last two years. It has the same characteristics as the others I've seen: exceptional speed AND range! Turns out that what you saw in your last experience as "exceptional performance" is now pretty much state of the art! Kind of reminds me of my Fast Rat days when a simple prop change saw a half second improvement in back-to-back tanks! Wow! What happened!?!

As I mentioned, I was prepared to let anyone get measured that wanted to do it. But no takers. (And I made D***ned sure before I left home that I was legal with the model!)

The BEST way to make sure it happens is to SHOW UP and make your point. I understand your concerns, but not participating and then making these sorts of comments from afar doesn't help at all. Sounds an awful lot like sour grapes. (My apologies here and now if I have offended anyone on this, it was not intended!)

Regards,

Bill

Les Akre · « **Reply #15 on:** January 22, 2014, 02:37:50 AM »

Well now, after 6 years of veiled accusations regarding my performance In Clown Race at the 2008 Nat's, someone finally starts to ask some questions.

Alright then, let's break this down.

I used my well worn Moki 15 that had seen many miles by that time. Normal lap count for that MOTOR was between 55-58 laps, depending on how well I filled the tank, and how lean the needle was. I say MOTOR and not airplane, as that Motor also ran 55-58 laps in one of Todd Ryan's airplanes two years earlier in Oregon. Todd could not get as many laps from his Moki 15's as I could from my one motor.

There you have it, two different models, two different fuel tanks, so it's obviously not the airplanes and fuel tanks, or is it?

The answer is to optimize every part of your airplane and Motor. Both airplanes had the fuel tanks positioned correctly for maximum lappage. Both Fuel tanks were near the maximum capacity of 31cc. Both airplanes ran on mininum length lines (ie. 51'6") And Lastly, and this item is more of an individual one, but very important in my case. I ran that Moki as absolutely lean as I possibly could without cutting out on takeoff. So lean in fact that if the engine was started from dead cold, it would take much priming and starts before it was warm enough to run on it's own.

Mr. Ferraro OTOH, used an O.S. 18TZ in his entry, and stated he getting 44 laps per tank.

I used an O.S. 18tz for the first time at the 2013 Nat's. I had one venturi at the time, quite large, and I struggled to get 43 laps per tank with that motor, but it ran low 17's. I have generally had better success with the O.S. mainly due to better re-starts and superior airspeed, and after making a couple smaller venturis I can now get around 50 laps per tank. However, my best final lap count with the O.S. tz was 344. This was only 4 laps better than what I turned with my Moki in one of Todd Ryan's Airplanes in 2006.

The spectacular performances come from people maximizing their equipment and identifying and solving problems. Anyone can do this if they want to put in the effort, and that's the key word EFFORT.

I will gladly allow my fuel tank to tested at any contest I attend.

Les

BillLee · « **Reply #16 on:** January 22, 2014, 06:10:26 AM »

Thanks for the info, Les. My "memory/knowledge" isn't what it used to be (or never really was!)

bill bischoff · « **Reply #17 on:** January 22, 2014, 05:48:36 PM »

Aha! So you did cheat! Minimum line length should be 52"0". It's 52'6" +/- 6", not 52" +/- 6". Just go ahead and try to blame it on the metric system

OK, just so nobody gets the wrong idea, Les doesn't cheat. He does well because he works at it. I doff my toque to you, Les.

Bill Bischoff

BillLee · « **Reply #18 on:** January 22, 2014, 05:55:38 PM »

Quote from: bill bischoff on January 22, 2014, 05:48:36 PM

....line length should be 52"0". It's 52'6" +/- 6", not 52" +/- 6"....

Oops!. Rules read

"Length is 52 feet, plus or minus 6 inches, measured from the center of the handle to the thrustline. "

As good as Les always is, the last thing HE needs to win is to cheat! Just doesn't do it. Not sure what a "toque" is, but mine is off as well!

Al Ferraro · « **Reply #19 on:** January 23, 2014, 08:11:30 AM »

Bill
With all due respect, I appreciate the fact that you have been running and participating in the Nats for years and I have enjoyed competing against you. You are an excellent competitor and I have told everyone in NJ that you are among some of the best pitmen I have ever competed against. I also appreciate the fact that you tried to arrange for a technical inspector and Nats director a few years ago. However your statement " Sounds a lot like sour grapes" seems a bit misplaced. It's not my credibility at stake and I'm not the one that asked the question. I was simply stating my experience and other racers' observations

. Don Burke made the statement " Checking tanks is necessary if exceptional performance is observed." Since Don Burke is a highly regarded racer out in California I'm wondering when California racers would consider "exceptional lap performance" enough to check tanks. Because here in NJ we would consider anything over 50 laps as "exceptional performance" using a TZ with competitive speed. Just an FYI

, all 7 of the NJ clown racers using the TZs are aware of all the optimizing tricks within the rules and have yet to hit 50 laps, even in solo testing. So I guess the enigma continues

don Burke · « **Reply #20 on:** January 23, 2014, 10:04:17 AM »

Quote from: Al Ferraro on January 23, 2014, 08:11:30 AM

Bill
With all due respect, I appreciate the fact that you have been running and participating in the Nats for years and I have enjoyed competing against you. You are an excellent competitor and I have told everyone in NJ that you are among some of the best pitmen I have ever competed against. I also appreciate the fact that you tried to arrange for a technical inspector and Nats director a few years ago. However your statement " Sounds a lot like sour grapes" seems a bit misplaced. It's not my credibility at stake and I'm not the one that asked the question. I was simply stating my experience and other racers' observations . Don Burke made the statement " Checking tanks is necessary if exceptional performance is observed." Since Don Burke is a highly regarded racer out in California I'm wondering when California racers would consider "exceptional lap performance" enough to check tanks. Because here in NJ we would consider anything over 50 laps as "exceptional performance" using a TZ with competitive speed. Just an FYI , all 7 of the NJ clown racers using the TZs are aware of all the optimizing tricks within the rules and have yet to hit 50 laps, even in solo testing. So I guess the enigma continues

We haven't seen "exceptional" performance that couldn't be attributed to the expertise of the team competing.

john e. holliday · « **Reply #21 on:** January 24, 2014, 08:39:23 AM »

Remember racing engines are little like stunt engines, it depends on the part of this great land we are trying to fly in. I do plan on dusting off the planes I have and trying this year to do more as the knees are working so much better. Exercising is hard on an old man, but as someone once said, "No pain, no gain". The knees still let me know they are there.

C.T. Schaefer · « **Reply #22 on:** January 28, 2014, 06:13:53 PM »

I say amen to that Walt. Your presence while racing up here and in Millville made us all better racers. There was no breathing room for any mistakes! It's a bit different now and still lots of fun. I will confess to having used a muffler and working on the pattern some this past year on the non-racing days. Tom

BillLee · « **Reply #23 on:** January 31, 2014, 02:35:33 PM »

Quote from: Motorman on January 31, 2014, 09:43:47 AM

If it wasn't a 5 hour round trip I'd be right there with you guys every Sunday.

MM

Walt, what is your location these days?

Bill