A question, what would be the interest in a scale racing class using the goodyear designs that arte out there and an engine decided on by the racers. no high performance stuff, just engines like in clown racing ( Foxes, LA's, etc. ) and using similar rules. Sig has two designs kitted and there are others available as plans or kits ( Dumas Ole Tiger ) that would work .    

They used to have Goodyear "A" and "B" in Canada, with "A" being unlimited and "B" was the "low performance " class.  "A" eventually exterminated itself with high-cost, high-speed, limited availablity engines.  The refugees infiltated "B" and muddied up the line between A & B to the point that that died, too.

The currently popular racing event over theres is LA25 Sport Race.  ONE ENGINE is the only proven way to run a lost-cost, high participation racing event.

Brodak Clown Race works pretty well with LA15's.  Around here, in addition to the basic Clown and Circus Prince, we allow the Black Hawk Custon Special, which is pretty much the same.  Top speed is about 75 MPH.  Unlike the typical Goodyears, these planes can be raced over short grass.

The old Brodak Clown Race allowed any engine up through .19, but all-out speed needed to be compromised to get laps on one ounce of standard fuel.  They went up to 95 MPH. Management went to the LA15 to eliminate crashes, line tangles and other mishaps, but the results have not shown much of  a difference. 

You have begun by saying you don't want another UNLIMITED event.

LIMITED engine events tend to be riddled with loopholes so the winners are still pretty near unlimited, and furthermore, the menu of legal engines always boils down to ONE WINNER.

So, in conclusion, ONE engine is the way to go.  The OS Max LA15 is generally the engine of choice.  But any other readlily available (if there is such a thing) would do just as well.

Mark, I will make one statement here as I have argued the point from day one.  Shut offs should be required on all of the racing classes bigger than 1/2A.  It makes getting needle settings and trying different props so much easier.  Also when a pilot gets in trouble he can shut down and maybe save several airplanes.  If you could go back and find the articles of scale racers back in the early days of it you can see how construction was done back then.  With todays high performance engines the construction from back then will not hold up to the rigours of racing this day and age.  Racing as you know is an all out event to go as fast as you can and have better pit stops than your competition.  I have made suggestions in the past and have almost been tarred and feathered.  One event in particular thinks speed can be controlled by the venturi size.  They are going just as fast as before.  It is like when they made the rule that only 10% nitro fuel commercial blend can be used in competition.  So you set up your equipment to run on one brand of fuel only to find out the contest organizer has gotten a different blend.  But, until I find a dedicated pilot that doesn't tear up equipment I will do like I did in the early days, build and set up a plane anybody can fly.  Also I only worried about the stability of the plane and not all out speed.  The pit stops in the early days is where we wond races. 

Mark, if you fly for the fun of it you won't be crying.  I remember when I told my son, "The goal is to finish a race".  The first time we got it all together was a thrill.  But, there were times the old brain fade would kick in.  Shut offs let you contro your pits stops.  Usually the guys we fly with try to cordinate pits stops so we aren't getting in the way when someone wants to make one.  But, you know burnt plugs and broken props change all that once in awhile.

I haven't checked the AMA site yet, but there should be some plans listed for scale race.  The Little Quicky is my favorite.  I go with 1/2 balsa for the fuselage and a hardwood strip running full length, usually level with the stab.  Of course rudder is ply 1/16 with balsa laminate.  The wing is solid wood the thickness of the airfoil.  It has hard wood leading and trailing edges.  Some have metal motor plate big enough to hold the engine, shut off and fuel tank.  Then sometimes it is only the engine and shut off.  Used to use K&B Epoxy paint with light weight fiber glass for the surfaces in stead of silkspan or tissue.  The wing joint gets a double lamination of the cloth.

If you are in the Denver area, you might look up Dave Rolley that lives in a little town that is just east of there.  There is also Greg Settles that live right in Dinver.  Anyway I think the SIG racers are good for learning, but, need beefing up for the Nelson .15 and Rossi .15.  Those of us that have them are using APC props when we can't afford the fiber glass props.  Maybe if you PM Bill Lee he can give better advice than I have given.  

Thanks Doc.

I am assuming that there is no gliding at all of these planes. While I understand that for a fast pit you need to get on the ground ASAP, but it sounds as if due to the weight of the plane you dont have a choice on this either.

Dave Rolley, Yeap he has been alot of help! Good guy.

Mark

Mark,

On the off chance Dave Rolley didn't point you toward the NCLRA web site, check out this link to Wayne Trivin's Tribute Web Site: https://nclraorg.ipower.com/WayneTrivin/Goodyear.html

Also, John Ballard's Lil Quickie is available from the AMA Plans Service. It is plan # 390 and was published in the December 1982 issue of Model Aviation.

As for the power off glide, a Goodyear / Scale Racer does just fine. The learned skill is to get them down as quickly as possible to minimize the in lap - pit - out lap time as much as possible.

Finally, the main construction issue with a modern racer is structural stiffness. The Nelson and Rossi engines wind so tight that a really stiff airframe is needed to absorb the power. The SIG type model will simply shake apart.

Bob Heywood
Dayton, OH

Mark,

Here are the rules for the Wichita Kansas Class II Goodyear:

http://www.nclra.org/SouthCentral/Wichita_GY.htm

The Dallas Sport Goodyear:

http://www.nclra.org/SouthCentral/DMAA_SGY.htm

SCAR Goodyear:

http://www.microair.info/SCAR/SCAR-GY.pdf

The engines are relatively low-tech by modern standards but give good performance on suction and the events are run with the intent of 3-up racing.

In Denver we have been running the Wichita KS rules.  These rules are currently used in Denver CO (every other year, Labor Day contest), Topeka KS (Memorial Day contest), and Wichita KS (second weekend of August).  The Wichita rules allow Nelson glo plug heads the Dallas rules do not.  Stay with a 1/4-32 thread glo plug and you can run the model in Dallas (Labor Day contest).  I haven't seriously looked at the SCAR Goodyear because a Goodyear model doesn't fit in the model case I use for the airlines.

These events are generally supported by the referenced locations for the rules and are reasonably successful.  Most locations are not interested in changing the event for one more competitor because the requested change will usually alienate more of the local members than it folks it will add. 

If you want to start an event from scratch, go ahead.  But it will take a while to build up the kind of contest support described above.

Bring you models out and let us help you. You'll be ready for the Labor Day contest in September.

Dave

Hello Mark

"1)   What engines are currently ran in the Sport Goodyear class as raced by Texas, Kansas, and SCAR?  Nelson, Rossi, and ?
2)   So far in the rules as I read them there is no reference to the building material of the plane. This means to me that should I want to build an all Carbon Fiber plane it would be legal. Is this true? If this is the case then I am sure someone is doing this already?? Of course in a limited class this would not be acceptable due to the material cost."


I have an airplane set up for the SCAR Goodyear rules. It uses an Moki .15 ABC sport combat engine. Others I have seen competing in this class have used: O.S. .15CV, Fox .15 BB, Moki .15 Sport, O.S. .15FP. Other suitable engines for this class are: Super Tigre G-15's and X-15's, K&B series 73 .15's, O.S. .15LA's, Norvell Big Mig and AME .15's, and Tower Hobbies .15 to name a few.

If starting your own Sport Goodyear event, the first place to start is to determine the airspeed for the event. If most everyone in your area is primarily a Stunt flyer used to 5 second laps, then even an 80-85 mph Goodyear will seem fast. However, 80-85 mph is actually a fairly comfortable speed to race at with a little practice, so you might want to consider that as a nominal speed to shoot for.  An O.S. .15LA should put you comfortably within that speed range.

I have copied the Scar Goodyear rules, and posted them below. You will find that your second question is answered within these rules.

SCAR SPORT GOODYEAR RULES - 2002
OBJECTIVE:
The objective of this event is to provide a forum for team racing competition that allows for
racing with relatively simple and inexpensive, yet realistic appearing, profile models of actual
[racing] aircraft. The Supplemental provision for "ALL SCALE AIRCRAFT" is included for fun
and not intended to give a "RACERS ADVANTAGE". Please participate within the basic intent
of the rules.
Revised supplemental rules for 2002, item #2. Basic Model Rules
1. Basic model rules governing 'profile', landing gear, scale and accuracy and cheek
cowls as per the AMA Scale Race class. This includes painted canopies, race numbers and
AMA numbers.
2. Supplemental rules t2002]. Any scale aircraft may be entered in this event as long as the
following criteria is met. This allows for "Warbirds", Racing Biplanes, Civilian Airplanes, Crop
Dusters or any other "Strange Aircraft" that you may wish to build.
A. All divisions of rule #1 apply to all models, except for (1/8 scale'
B. Minimum wing area must be 150 Square inches. Bi-plane wing(s) area total is min. 150
sq. in.
C. 3-view drawings may be requested by the Event Director. Burden of proof is on
competitor.
D. Stabilizer/Elevator may be increased to +25% of wing area.
E. Scale landing gear per the AMA rules definition will be enforced.
3. 1 ounce maximum size fuel tank.
4. Fuel shutoffs allowed.
5. No pressure refueling systems or MFV's. All refueling to be performed through a
maximum 1/8 inch I.D. tube.
6. Fuel tanks cannot be recessed into the model.
7. All controls (bellcrank, leadouts, pushrod, control horn) must be externally mounted,
although mounting of bellcranks through the fuselage is permitted.
8. Models must be constructed of wood. The use of carbon fiber, glass fiber, Kevlar and
the like shall be limited to reinforcement and/or finishing of the model only.
9. Lines shall be 52'-6" +/- 6" from center of handle to the center of the model. Minimum
line diameter shall be 0.012 for solid, 0.015 for stranded.
10. Models and lines shall be pull tested to a loading of 25 pounds prior to competing in an
event.
11. Any engine may be used that did not have a listed retail price exceeding $150 U.S. as
of January 31, 2000. Proof of retail pricing lies with the competitor desiring to use a specific
engine by presenting evidence showing:
(a) General availability (published advertisements, etc.) at or below the stated limit.
Or
(b) In the case of an older engine, a dated advertisement at or below the stated limit.
12. Organizing clubs may opt to limit an event to diesel or glow engines only. It is
preferred, however, that events held as part of a
sanctioned competition, or, events that are open to non-club members, shall allow both
diesel and glow engines to compete.
13. Glow engines shall be restricted to a maximum of 10% nitromethane in their fuel.
Organizing clubs may opt to provide standard glow and diesel fuel at a race.
14. The organizing club may use either of the following race formats: [set time or set # of
laps]
A. All races to be 15 minute moto's. No final round, with the team recording the greatest
number of laps being declared the winner of the event.
B. Heats of 7.5 minutes shall be used, with the 3 teams recording the greatest number of
laps in the heat races racing in a 15 minute final. The team recording the greatest number of
laps in the final shall be declared the winner of the event. OR
A. 100 Lap preliminary heat (1 heat only) No mandatory pit stops required. Top three heat
times proceed to final.
B. 200 Lap final. No mandatory pit stops required. Fastest time wins.

Cheers, Les Akre

Dave mentioned the Fox .15 BB as only ball bearing engine allowed in the Class II Goodyear we fly.  I have been asked why?  Mainly the plain bearing .15 is hard to find and we discovered by trial and error that the plain bearing engine was faster.   I won the the very first race the Sky Devils had with a SIG Shoestring and the plain bearing Fox .15 Schneurle.  I have tried to get more people to try it, but,  if they can't win why try.  Oh I get upset when things don't go right, but in my later years it is the fun of flying three up and just finishing with decent pit stops that makes it fun. 

Only limit is specified plain bearing .15 or 2.5cc diesel.  Price was never a limit.  That was in the original rules as I had a hand in drawing them up while a member of the Sky Devils.   

Mark,
The best thing to do is to get your new scale racer out to a circle and enjoy learning how to start it, fly it, and practice racing it with no one else on the circle. Don't know your experience level, but racing requires techniques and skills that are quite different from most other control line activities. Other experience helps, but can also handicap you in certain ways that won't be obvious at first. Take a racer to the field if you can and they can quickly get you past these areas. The So Cal Air Racers (SCAR) require that a team demonstrate that they can perform the racing techniques before allowing them to enter the race. Especially important is pilot technique during takeoff and merging into traffic. This is one of the more critical areas since a pilot that does not get to the center and climb fast enough can hit a pitman in the next pit. I must have entered my Mouse plane in 3 or 4 races as a pit man until they let me transition to pilot. (Pitman is harder!)

I would not worry about top speed until you can complete a race consistently. It is surprising how hard it is to teach a pilot how to put the airplane in the pit man's hands each time. Similarly, it is difficult to teach a pit man not to release a plane after  pitting when there is a conflict that will result in a tangle or collision.

We have a Father/Daughter team that flies what appears to be a stock SIG Shoestring with a sport engine in our SCAR Goodyear event. She is young, but has flown against the fastest guys in the club. My second racing plane was a SIG Buster--that I am still flying. The wing is just balsa and Monokote. I did reinforce the fuselage. Folks say the Shoestring flies better. At high power, my Buster hunts, but I have made improvements and have another in the works to try out. It is great for training the pilot to fly, not just hold the handle. In fact, the current rotation rate for the pilots in SCAR GY using the better engines is way too high to learn racing unless you detune. There is no point in going really fast to the site of your unavoidable crash....

I like flying Goodyear because the planes are fun to watch. The scale aspect does make them a little harder to fly and handle on the ground. Few of them drop like bricks (with one notable exception which we won't talk about), but glide well enough for a trained pilot to whip back to the pitman, generally airborne and above any lines in the pit behind you. This is a must skill for the pilot!

Glad to hear we have more racers, and good luck!

Dave "McSlow" Hull
SCAR

Mark,
We are always excited about another pilot, or another team. Racing is a lot of fun, so stick with it, and if we can help, just ask.

A comment you made needs a bit of follow-up. Once you can execute all the maneuvers required for a race while flying by yourself, then you need to practice with a second pilot in the circle. At that point, it is great if the second pilot is experienced, because they can coach you real time and talk strategy, etc. They can also help keep you out of trouble, maybe saving a plane or two. But once you are flying 2-up, you need to get rid of the idea that you have to "stay out of the way."  The other guys are expecting you to race, not stay out of their way. (And if you find any that tell you that you need to stay out of their way, chalk it up to them trying to psych you out before the race. Don't fall for it!) You need to be right in there, bumping shoulders so they know where you are, and so you are not running around like a wild man trying to keep up. (Staying right in the center makes it much less work for the pilot.) So what if you are slow at first--it is their job to pass. Just like you shouldn't be bending over all the time to "stay out of their way." Again, it is their job to pass and not whack you in the head. If you are racing hard, and doing everything just like everyone else, they will know right where you are and what you are likely to do. Make them beat you; don't volunteer to lose.

For example, you may be slow or even way slower than the others when you first start. Don't try to go any faster than your pilot can keep up the plane. But if a fast guy blows a plug and you don't make any mistakes, chances are you have just knocked them off. If you give away a couple of laps by "staying out of the way," they might pull off a winning plug change....

Good Luck!

Dave "McSlow" Hull

Just goes to show what can be had with hard work and practice.

Hey Guys.. just a quick read while I am at work here. I appreciate the information and all the help!


On that Vid...I have to ask. Are breathmints required? If not.. they should be! I am going to show this to my Wife and I'll have to let you know what her reaction is to going out and playing with the boys like this!

Mark

Another note about the Australian racers, there was a comment made by someone from down there that all three are accomplished F2C pilots.  Their rat races are 10 minute heats with one pit, and 20 minute finals with two pits.  Airplanes with big tanks, and iron men flying them!

 And Doc,

"When I know I will be the pilot in a racing event, I don't take a bath for a week."

I always wondered why everyone managed to stand upwind of you!

Re the above picture of the inflight "polecat": The tank is wider at the front than at the back. Centrifugal force causes the fuel to pool "forward" in flight and the fuel pickup enters the tank at the forward/bottom, barely extending into the tank (1/16th), The filler tube and overflow face into the "relative" wind. It is a Bill Bischoff designed tank.
dg