what engine is the hot setup for clown racing?

Russ Green had very good runs with a second hand Nelson 15 with a fai combat sized venturi. At the Nats he had  166 laps in the heat.  Had some gloplug problems in the final.

How fast do they get these things going?

The Moki 15 sport engine is a good choice as well. Not in production anymore though. I used one to turn 340 laps at this years N.W. Regional control line competition.

Any engine that will turn low 19's for 7 with about 48-50 laps range and good pits will get you consistently over 300 laps.

Regards, Les Akre

Bill,

You are right with part of your comments and wrong on other parts.

Foxberg, as it is run in Kansas, is not a big dollar event.  It is still the Goldberg or Goldberg derived kits (Brodak) with a stock Fox 35.

NCLRA Fox Race harkens back to the very beginnings of AMA Slo Rat with a 300 sq inch wing and a stock Fox 35.

The NCLRA has a new event for folks that got tired of flogging a Fox.  It is called Super Slo Rat (SSR).  It is basically the same as NCLRA Fox Race except it allows the use of a stock plain bearing .25 engine.

None of those can be considered big money events.

NCLRA Flying Clown Race requires a specific design model and allows any engine up to a .19.  Glo or diesel.  But you are limited to a 1 ounce tank. 

Right now 2nd hand F2D engines seem the way to go.  But that may change.  I have seen one Clown Racer with a recent F2C engine on it, but it turns out that does not mean certain victory.  It seems that in racing, the fastest model doesn't always win.

As to Goodyear, man it was over the top more than 30 years ago.  Full length tuned pipes, megaphones, weird fuels.  You name it.  Where it sits today is a shadow of where it was when it was its most complex.

The problem with control line racing isn't racing.  The problem is two-fold.  There is no progression between the events and there is no one keeping the faith for the beginner events beyond the local level.  Once the event is flown at the Nats, Nats level competitors want to fly it.  And they want to fly it at the Nats level.  And that is a far cry from the person that just wants to get their feet wet in racing.

So the key to entry level racing?  Race entry level at your local contests and enforce the separation between the entry level folks and the experts there.  For instance, no expert teams allowed.  If the experts want to race either the pilot or the pitman has to be an entry level competitor.  Make a club rule (and enforce it) about the engine(s).  if you have folks coming in from out of town, let them know about the way you run the event.

I've often thought we should do something like have reed valve Mouse Race for the normal teams and then run a second reed valve Mouse Race event at the same contest with its own set of trophies.  Only in the second event the pilot and pitman have to reverse their roles.  The pilot pits and the pitman flys!  For most teams it might be the first time the pitman has flown in years!

We lose control of our events because we allow someone else to take control away from us.  However, there are plenty of exampleswhere clubs have decided that they are going to stabilize an event regardless of what the national level rule making organization decides to allow.

You want a beginner or entry level event?  Pick one, find some like minded folks, and go for it.  And then control the event to meet the needs in your area.

May I suggest either the Wichita Kansas Class II Scale Race (Goodyear):

http://www.nclra.org/SouthCentral/Wichita_GY.htm

or the NCLRA Fox Race, SSR, or F2CN:

http://www.nclra.org/Rules/index.html

Dave Rolley

Good evening Bill,

Yeah, the problem is if it is simple enough for the entry level modeler, it is easy to compete in.  Well, maybe that isn't the problem.  The problem starts when some says "We oughta allow ...." and the powers that be over the event respond with "That sounds OK to us, go ahead."

For years I argued that the Topeka and Wichita clubs should allow more engines into their Sport Goodyear event (the Class II Scale Race event).  That if I could run an engine I already had, I'd race the event.  Fortunately the answer was always the same.  Go get a legal engine and quit asking us to change the event just for you.  When my son started flying models and got interested in racing he wanted to try the event.  A friend tossed us (literally) one of his old models and I finally purchased an appropriate engine.  It has been a ball for a number of years now.  It is great three up racing on 52 feet lines that most anyone that can handle a Class 1 Mouse in three up racing can handle this class of racing.  The difference being the races are longer and the models pull harder.  OK, the models are faster, but the longer lines (52 feet vice 42 feet) make up for some of the speed increase.  Guess what?  I was wrong.  I really didn't want them to change the rules.  I just thought I did.

The key to keeping an entry level event is to "just say no".  The event doesn't need higher performance or more modern equipment.  In many ways just saying "no" to the requested "improvement" is just like suggesting that it is time for someone to move up in the PAMPA classes.  That it is time to go play with the bigger kids and leave the entry level event to the entry level folks.

Don't get me wrong.  There are times when the rules need revision.  But more often than not the change that is needed is an increase in the restrictions to counter something not previously addressed.  Not a relaxation of the existing restrictions.  And what if someone's pet configuration is now no longer legal?  Well, if they can't enjoy the more restrictive event maybe it is time to move to one of the less restrictive event.  Unfortunately, in racing, folks seem to take the change personally and quit rather than to continue competing by either accepting the change or moving to one of the less restrictive events.

BTW, how are my son and I doing today?  We still race both Class 1 Mouse Race and Wichita Class II Scale Race.  We aren't always or even often the winners, but we have a lot of fun with it.  We also now race F2C Team Race.  So we are back at the entry level again.  Abet on a slightly different level of racing.

Dave

I remember the origination of Class II Scale Race.  The Sky Devils of Kansas City Missouri were the originators.  I was a member of the club.  Bill Wright and Jim Dunkin had quite a bit of say in the rules also.  Jim even had a plain bearing diesel he was going to run with a 3/4 ounce tank against our plain bearing 15's with 1 ounce tank.  Shut offs were optional.  I somehow won the the first race flown at the Swope Park site which is no more.  Last Saturday Melvin was showing me his reworked Fox 15 that is flying circles around us.  But, our plane was slow enough that Aaron was not intimidated when I sent him out to take the handle from JJ.  Dave knows full well that JJ and I are not the fastest in any form of racing.  Lack of practice and good equipment.  Did also get JJ's AMA Goodyear up for a couple of tanks.  Melvin says we need to take another couple of seconds off of the 17 flat we were getting with 2 flip starts.  Now I need to find room for 6 each of Mouse Racers and Class II Good years.  Will be getting the youngsters on the big Goodyears soon.     Later,  DOC Holliday

Hi les,

Um, would you believe Fox 15s?  Cheap, easy to get, and they run pretty well.  Use one of the APC 6.5 x X series props.  Up to about 5.5 pitch will work depending on the day.

AFAIK, the Big Mig 15 would be legal.  They are supposed to be real miserly on fuel and yet have some power.  The only thing you need to be sure you address is the anodized head and cylinder fins.  A standard clip from the center post of the plug to the case isn't going to conduct electricity.

Dave

Phil,

You have two very good suggestions.

I found out a long time ago that to get better you have to compete against those that are better at whatever you are doing.


Dave

I agree in that is what keeps killing a sport racing event.  Of course I watched and witnessed Bill Bischoff disqualify himself in Foxy Racing at the NATS.  He had a Fox that was bought second hand and never looked at.  When tearing down the engine for inspection he noticed where someone had smoothed up the insides of the old Fox.  His statement was: "Lessoned learned".   But, it is a lot of fun when an old man like me can get in the circle with a plane that is probably doing all of 60+ with two other planes of the same speed.   DOC Holliday

Hey Dave,  you sure didn't have much trouble with JJ's plane at the last Denver contest.  But it does take practice to learn your equipment no matter the event.  Also the newbies when they get proficient at the begginner events can think of moving up to the official AMA events.  Later,  DOC Holliday

http://cgi.ebay.com/Nelson-15D-Diesel-Team-Race-engine-control-line_W0QQitemZ220075823292QQihZ012QQcategoryZ34054QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Guaranteed Victory for only $68.

Better look again.  I just did and it is now over $148.00 and going up.  DOC Holliday

Rereading all the posts on this thread, it just dawned on me what has happened.  When  I got started it was Rat Racing as the main racing event.  We were still trying to get a consistent 115+ out of our equipment.  But, it seemed everyone was about equal in air speed and it was the pits that usually decided who won.  Also there was almost a contest every weekend that had Rat Race.  We flew out of grass fields and the pilots learned to get the plane close to the pit man.  Every time I suggest running a monthly or bi-monthly racing event I almost get tarred and feathered.  This year may be different if I can work it out.  Later as I got to get some ZZZ's before crossing duty.  DOC Holliday

What would you change in Clown Racing?  I remember we campaigned for years to get Rat Race down to 21 size engines to no avail.  Even tried that with Slow Rat, same results.  Now we have Hamster Rat and still fewer Slow Rats.  I think the late Ken Smith had the right idea with B-Team Race in limiting the speed limit and the designs.  He was hoping to make it a spectator event when I talked to him, in that it would be slow enough we could have 3 or 4 planes up at a time.  I love racing and carrier, but, have run out of room and no one to practice with.  DOC Holliday

what engine is the hot setup for clown racing?

As of yesterday, Vic Garner's latest engine is a "hot setup".  Also, it's on a good plane.  I don't have important details.  It's an engine that I've never seen on a racing circle, and it's not expensive.  Kind of supports the idea that there can be many hot setups in Clown.  That continues to be the special charm of this event. 
The downside is that the wide variations in airspeeds among the planes in a heat results in some very challenging piloting.  The upside is it's never dull, and there's always something for the engine tweakers to experiment with.
Cheers,
Randy

The way to stop the F2C engines from becoming THE engine in Clown is to limit the event to non-integral fin engines.  Integral fin liners (the liner and the cooling fins are one piece) and integral fin blind bore engines (the liner, cooling fins, and head is machined as a single part) are a good deal of the technology jump from the older F2C engines.  Of course, ABC and AAC liners, good bearings, and affordable tight tolerance manufacturing processes help.

Doc, the problem with the .21s in Rat was they were almost as fast as the 40s.  For a fun event, the pilot is the primary limitation.  When it gets too much like work (the pull in slo rat) or the model is too fast for the once a month pilot, the pilots drop out.

It is the same problem faced by F2C today, there are way more mechanics than pilots.  And that was true when I first got interested in 1975.  There were 4 F2C mechanics (or mechanic wantabees) in Denver and and one F2C pilot back then.  Unfortunately the pilot and one of the mechanics moved to New Mexico about that time.  I didn't find a local pilot I could work with until my son decided he wanted to fly.  Maybe that statement should be I didn't find a pilot that could work with me until my son started flying.  Either way, I didn't get serious about the event until I had a pilot.

Like I said earlier in this thread, you have to make it work at the local level.  If that means additional controls or rules, then that is what it takes!

Dave

You are very lucky in that you and Charley work so well together.  JJ at this point in his life has a hard time finding time to practice.  Right now it seems I will have 3 or 4 youngsters for mouse racing in Topeka this year.  Now do you  think putting a speed limit on B-Team race would help?  I know in some parts of the country it has helped bring combat into being again.  DOC Holliday

Ended at $203.50!  OUCH!

More than list price --- Henry should have sold on eBay.

Hi Scott

The engine Randy is talking about is an O.S. .18 car engine modified for Aero use. In my conversation with Vic, he claims 18.2/7 with 42 laps range.

Not too shabby!

Les

I thought that leveling the playing field with diesels could be done by reducing the tank size for diesel powered airplanes.  But again last year no one wanted to do that either.  And of course, that's a change.  And by the way, I don't believe in locking the barn AFTER the horse is stolen!

The last Nats I saw a F2C engine used on a Clown Racer was 2005.  My approach to managing the diesels (banniing integral fin liners) only affects one person that I know of AND I believe that individual has already switched to a F2D engine on his Clown Racer.

I don't know how many folks use a diesel on a Clown Racer, but I have seen several used over the last couple of years.  So banning all diesels will affect several more folks.

Actually, an unshrouded diesel probably isn't the issue everyone thinks it is because you can't control the heat very well.  However, there is a method of heat control that doesn't involve a shroud that the F2CN folks are playing with that will change that statement.

My approach is to apply the minimum change to address the issue.  Banning integral fin liner engines stops the current style of F2C engines being used.  It has the advantage over Don's idea of a smaller tank for diesels of being verifiable by inspection as opposed to being verified by measurement.

I think you are going to find that the .18 car enginies and the F2D engines with a different venturi are going to rise to the top of the heap faster than any of the diesel powered models.

Since the NCLRA controls the event at the national level, you need to make your change request to them.  Likely it is already too late for 2007, but you can always try.

Try http://www.nclra.org

I do wholeheartly agree with Don, closing the door after the horse is gone is a waste of time and will just cause hard feelings.  It is better to be proactive.

Oh, and I already race F2C.  I time and lap count for those that fly Clown Race.

Dave

Don,

I remember the line from the movie.  Nice quote.

BTW, those of us that are trying to fly F2C really appreciate the folks that come out and help!

later,

Dave