Author Topic: B Team Race - What Do Most People Fly (Read 3215 times)

Wayne Foster · « **on:** November 16, 2009, 06:57:22 AM »

Hi Guys,

I would like to get back into B Team Race and was wondering what most people run/fly these days.

When I was a kid, I had a Veco Redskin with a Fox .29 I think. Flew it but never got to race it.

I'm thinking about building another Redskin and would like to know what the hot engines are today.

Any help would be appreciated.

Wayne

Wayne Foster · « **Reply #1 on:** November 16, 2009, 07:12:45 AM »

Hi Guys,

In checking around it seems like Russ Green is the guy to beat, at least at the 2009 NATS. Any information on what he flies, airplane, engines? Are there any pictures around of B Team Racing?

Wayne

Thomas Wilk · « **Reply #2 on:** November 16, 2009, 07:42:30 AM »

these were taken at the Ntas a few years ago.

Wayne Foster · « **Reply #3 on:** November 16, 2009, 08:15:02 AM »

Thanks Thomas,

That's what I remember my old Redskin looking like.

Wayne

don Burke · « **Reply #4 on:** November 16, 2009, 10:39:38 AM »

The currently most successful engines are the ball-bearing OS28, and Webra 28, fuel usually 10% nitro, 20% oil. There are those who play with funny fuel, but I haven't seen any consistent results. Although the Australia/NZ guys all use it.

Airplane designs are usually 3/8 thick wing, 1/2" bass crutch. 1/4" engine plate, fuselage with balsa top and bottom built up, 3/16 thick empennage . Finish with cloth and resin, usually epoxy (West Systems the best, IMO). Paint to suit.

Keep the CG fwd (10-15%), the wheels near the LE of the wing, and use generous sweep back of the leadouts behind the CG, at least 1 oz of tip wt. That way you'll have an airplane that won't try to eat the pilot on takeoff.

For a shutoff, you'll have to make your own unless you can find one of the F2A speed ones. Tank you will have to build your own, just remember the capacity, at least in the US, is 30cc, (easier to measure than one oz, usually).

Wayne Foster · « **Reply #5 on:** November 16, 2009, 11:10:38 AM »

Thanks Don,

That's just the kind of information I was looking for.

I noticed in the rules that the Heat Races were 35 and 70 laps with total lowest times going to a 140 Lap Feature. The rules mentioned that there were no minimun pit stops.

Using the OS .28 BB engines, how many laps do they usually get per tank of fuel? I guess if you don't have to make a pit stop in the 35 lap race, going fast would really be good.

Any information on pits stops and pitting procedures used would be helpful.

Thanks,

Wayne

don Burke · « **Reply #6 on:** November 16, 2009, 06:40:55 PM »

No pits required in any of the races. Go the whole way in the 140 if you can figger out how to do it. The funny fuel guys typically will get over 50 laps/tank. The magic number being 47 in the 140. The 35 is just a sprint. I don't think you can get 47 on "standard fuel" without giving up too much airpspeed.

Ron Duly and I had these numbers in Tucson this year:
1:30 - 35 laps
3:10 - 70 laps - 1 pit
6:30 - 140 laps - 3 -pits
ergo each stop added 10 sec.

Anything you can do to cut down the pit time is an advantage.

Russ Green's times at the NATS this year bested all of those, and set new records for the 70, 35+70 and the 140. But our 1:24.34 35 lap record from 2005 is still there for the taking. BTW I don't know how many laps/tank Russ was getting.

don Burke · « **Reply #7 on:** November 16, 2009, 06:56:36 PM »

Forgot you asked about pitting. Most here in the US use a single pitman with hot fingers of somesort. The rules do require the use of squish bottles. The tanks typically have "fast fills". Ron and I are getting away from them just for the simple reason of the amount of raw fuel flying around when using them. Too many pit fires for us. The fast fills seem to have an awful lot of fuel finding it's way into the fuselage. The last two Cabin Fever contests have had an airplane explosion and a flying airplane on fire incident both were using fast fills. The smoke trail coming out the inboard tip through the leadout channels was an interesting sight.

I think the down under guys usually have two pitmen with the second guy doing only the plug connection. They use either a plug and jack arrangement, or what I think makes sense, a clothes pin with contacts clipped onto the rudder. The airplane makes the disconnect. Two pitmen does make sense in that each has to be concerned with doing only one thing.

I my case I use brass pads on the sides of the fuselage. Some have the pads on the LE and TE of the outboard wing. For me that leads to more airplane release issuses with the dreaded, "eating the pilot manuver" following.

The other thing to remember is that a gliding lap adds 7 or more seconds to your race time. So have your pilot practice getting it on the ground ASAP.

Wayne Foster · « **Reply #8 on:** November 17, 2009, 06:31:04 AM »

Don,

I really appreciate all the good advice. It's always good to get information from someone who actually competes.

I use to do a lot of Mouse Racing back in the 80's and some Foxberg and Florida Slow Rat. The B-Team Race seems like something I could get interested in again.

One other question, what do you think the weights of the current crop of racers are?

In Mouse Racing, going light always worked well for me. I started out with planes ready to fly less fuel at about 6 ounces. Found that for every 1/4 ounce I dropped the weight, I picked up a few extra laps. Now all my Mouse Planes are at or slightly below 5.0 ounces ready to fly less fuel. Could always finish the feature with 2 pit stops. Won a lot of races that way. Don't know if this would carry over to B-Team Race or not.

Thanks again for your help. Where are you located. I'm in North Carolina and not much racing going on here at this time. I will probably have to start running Contests again if I want to race around here.

Wayne

BillLee · « **Reply #9 on:** November 17, 2009, 09:27:56 AM »

I still have a couple or three of the "stash" of Webra 28's available. They are $125 + S&H. Will set them up with either a venturi for a remote needle valve or an adapter for a Cox .09 venturi/needle assembly.

Bill Lee

Wayne Foster · « **Reply #10 on:** November 17, 2009, 02:04:01 PM »

Hi Bill,

How much do the Webra's weigh in grams. Thanks for the offer. I will keep those in mind.

Thanks

Wayne

don Burke · « **Reply #11 on:** November 17, 2009, 03:08:34 PM »

Wayne,
I'm in Calif;

Lighter is better. Our latest is 22 oz. w/a Lance Smith modified Brodak 25 (plain bearing). Lots of teething problems getting consistency up to now. Our Webra airplanes are at least 2 oz heavier. A Webra weighs about 210 gm, the Brodak is 60 gm lighter. There are some Classic B's in Australia that are in the 19 oz range, must be a pleasure for the pilot. At 120mph, the model weight in oz is the g's pull on the lines.

BillLee · « **Reply #12 on:** November 17, 2009, 04:17:42 PM »

Hi, Wayne;

What Don said!

I weighed one of the Webra 28's and it is 207 gms without a venturi.

Russ Green's B-TR (NATs winner and holds most of the B-TR U.S. records) is NOT light! Uses Max 28 which is set up with a p/l from John McCollum. Took several years (including a fire in Tucson last spring) before Russ finally worked out all of the bugs, but now it is a very fast and very reliable rig. Yes, light is better, but getting the first one in the air and working reliably is initially more important.

Regards,

Bill Lee

Wayne Foster · « **Reply #13 on:** November 17, 2009, 05:26:49 PM »

Hi Bill, Don,

You guys are really giving some good advice which is appreciated. I'm sure my first planes will not be as light or as reliable as I will want it to be.

It took me about two years to get where I wanted to be with the Mouse Racers. Just kept taking away everything that wasn't absolutely necessary while keeping the strength needed.

i also found that I was flying with more wing area than most in those days and i think that helped when the engine cut as I could always get it back to the pits. Not as big a problem when you have shutoffs.

One other thing I forgot to ask about. What props are you guys running with the Brodak and what RPM's are you turning. I use to run a little more prop and a little less RPM than most people ran in Mouse. It worked for me but probably because of the overall setup and not one particular thing.

Will the Brodak .25 and the LA .25 bolt up in the same holes. If so I will probably start with an LA, mainly because I have about 10 or 12 of them. If not I will probably go with the Brodak to begin with.

Again, thanks for the information and anything else you can think of I would certainly appreciate it. Looks like it could be tight getting the fuel shut off in the enclosed fuselage.

Wayne

BillLee · « **Reply #14 on:** November 17, 2009, 07:16:19 PM »

The Brodak and the OS do not fit in the same holes. The Brodak is quite a bit smaller engine, as evidenced by the 50 gms less weight. On the other hand, if you use a mounting plate between the engine and the model, it should be a simple matter to make one for either engine. That's what we've done to fit a 25 onto existing Slow Rats (due to the rule change to smaller engines).

Russ Green uses an APC 7.8-6. I suspect there are better props, but that seems to work well and would be an excellent place to start. Not that we've done a lot of testing.

I am sure Don has a better handle on the prop: maybe he will share with us. I am not sure what kind of RPM.

Bill

Les Akre · « **Reply #15 on:** November 17, 2009, 07:51:44 PM »

Hello Wayne

Spend the Money and buy the Brodak .25, you'll be further ahead in the end. While the LA .25's are fine engines in their own right, their Nickelled Piston/Liner set up is no match for the Brodak's AAC unit when it comes to hot restarts. I have used both, and I definitely favour the Brodak. I don't know about prop sizes for the .28 engines, as I have not used one, but the hot props for the .25's are the APC sport series 7x6,7x7, and the 7x8 if you're really making some power. The Brodak engine does respond favorably to mods, so you can increase the horsepower when you are ready. A Nelson plug head adds the most gain, the shaft timing a bit more.
Lance Smith (smithlw@optushome.com.au), and John Hallowell (smithlw@optushome.com.au) of Australia have a lot of experience with the Brodak engine.

My next airplane is going to be as light as I can safely build it, these things pull like trucks when going 115+ mph.

Cheers' Les Akre

Wayne Foster · « **Reply #16 on:** November 17, 2009, 09:36:39 PM »

Thanks Don, Bill and Les,

I think I will go with the Brodak for the first time out. I have always favored light race planes and this seems to be the lightest engine and people have found out how to make it go fast.

I will get two on order tomorrow. Now to decide on which plane to build. Scott Jenkins was kind enough to send me a nice plan set for the Austrian design Rocket. Is this plane legal to run in the US. I had my heart set on building the old Veco Redskin, and I still may, just because I build one as a kid. Maybe I will just build both.

Any other designs out there that you guys recommend since I am starting from scratch here.

Again, thanks for all the help

Wayne

Les Akre · « **Reply #17 on:** November 18, 2009, 02:19:18 AM »

Wayne

The "Rocket" is an excellent design, and yes it's legal for NCLRA B Team Race. The Rocket was designed by one of the Australians whose Email addy I supplied to you (John Hallowell). Drop him a note, and ask him to send you the building instructions, and any updates he thinks might be relevant for use with the Brodak .25. I've known John for a few years now, and he was very helpful when I was building my first B tr model.

Here is a link to some info on the Brodak .25 set up for B tr. http://members.optusnet.com.au/~smithlw/Site%202/Brodak%20B25R%20Racing%20Engine.html

Cheers, Les

Clayton Smith · « **Reply #18 on:** November 18, 2009, 09:34:03 AM »

Where are contests for B Team Racing? I don't recall seeing any racing besides occasional Foxberg here in North Carolina for the past 20 years.

john e. holliday · « **Reply #19 on:** November 18, 2009, 10:19:21 AM »

Hey Wayne, just go to the AMA site for plans and spend a couple of hours browsing the John Pond plans listings.

don Burke · « **Reply #20 on:** November 19, 2009, 05:42:48 AM »

I agree w/Les on the props. Another one we've tried on the Webras is the APC 7.25-7, good, but unfortunately no longer made by APC.

Lance Smith · « **Reply #21 on:** November 19, 2009, 11:50:08 PM »

Just an update on my Web Site address from Les's post above, small changes, a lot more B T/R information and photos.

http://web.me.com/flyingkiw1/Model_Aircraft_Stuff/Welcome.html

By the way, the Brodak 25 has exactly the same mounting holes as a OS FP, OS LA, and Thunder Tiger 25 PB engine, but a tad more power!

Lance

Thomas Wilk · « **Reply #22 on:** November 20, 2009, 08:17:31 AM »

These are on my c/l racing CD #3
Battler   V-A-TR   Aviation Modeler    25.00   105.00   .19-.23   Moulton, Ron
Hall(Buldog)Racer   V-A-TR   VTR SIG   18.00   51.00   .06-.09   unknown
Honeybug   V-A-TR   1954 AT Fb p32   22.35   92.00   .15   Smith,Cal
Able Gull   V-B-TR   1963 Aero Modeler Ap         .29   Williams, Granger
Able Mable   V-B-TR   1950 Model Airplane News Dc p20   24.00   148.75   .29   Clark, Dick
Absolute Minimum   V-B-TR   1960 American Modeler Fb p54   24.00   76.50   .29   Burke, Don
All Metal   V-B-TR   1956 Model Airplane News Ja p20   28.00   161.70   .29   Williams, Granger
Art Chester Jeep   V-B-TR   1952 AT Ja p28   28.50   182.00   .19-.23   Kochman, Aubrey "Red"
Bartlet Bullet   V-B-TR   1953 AT My p32   25.75   129.50   .29   Bartlett, Warren E
Blue Tango   V-B-TR   2000 Aero Modeler Fb p15   25.75   135.00   .29   Greenwood, Al & Frank
Bluebottle   V-B-TR   Aero Modeler   32.00   180.00   .29   West, C.S.
Blunder Buster   V-B-TR   1955 AT Mr p42   30.00   150.00   .29   Schuver, Ron
Bonnie Lass   V-B-TR   1952 AT Fb p34   22.00   82.00   .074   McBrayer, Les
Cardinal Puff   V-B-TR   1951 Aviation Modeler Mr   29.50   261.00   .29   Taylor, C.A.
Challenger   V-B-TR    1952 Model Airplane News My p26   26.50   175.50   .29d   Shulman, Leon
Chatterbox   V-B-TR    1949 Model Airplane News Ap p10   31.00   130.00   .29   Conrad, Keith
Chicken Hawk   V-B-TR   unknown   40.00   150.00   .29   Brown, James H.
Chow Hound   V-B-TR    1952 AT Mr p29   26.00   150.75   .29   Thompson, Bryant A
Circle Burners   V-B-TR   1960 American Modeler Ag p37   36.00   134.00   .29   Norsikian, Dick
Crescendo   V-B-TR   unknown   33.60   134.75   .29   Taylor, K.
Dalesman   V-B-TR   1960 Aero Modeler Jl   33.37   110.14   .29   Long, Ken
De.H. TK 4   V-B-TR   1951 Aero Modeler Ja p19   30.50   150.00   .29   Moulton, R.G.
Double Dice   V-B-TR   unknown   29.50   125.25   .29   Derwal, P. & Taylor, C. & McNess J.
Dude   V-B-TR   1957 Flying Models Jn p12   27.25   136.25   .29   Carvalho, Tony D.
Firecracker   V-B-TR   1951 Model Airplane News Dc p34   30.00   166.00   .29   Ealy, Dick
Firecracker az   V-B-TR   1950 AMH Ag p9   25.36   108.00   .29   staff design
Fire-Cracker II   V-B-TR   unknown   28.20   135.35   .29   unknown
Folkerts Racer   V-B-TR   1951 AT Sp p38   19.75   48.50   .29   Musciano, Walt A
Gee Mac   V-B-TR   1950 Aviation Modeler Ot p370   28.00   160.00   .29   Evans, B.M.
Greenfly   V-B-TR   1952 aMA Jl p312   31.00   144.00   .29   West, Cyril S.
Hustler III   V-B-TR   1960 AT Annl p29   32.00   126.75   .29
Jezebel   V-B-TR   1951 AT Dc p35   27.00   144.00   .29   Bourgeois, Henry M
Kessler   V-B-TR   1957 Flying Models Nv p20   27.50   132.75   .29   Keville, Mike
Kestrel   V-B-TR   1956 Aviation Modeler My p156   30.00   160.50   .29   Godfrey, P.N.
Key   V-B-TR   1949 AT Mr p41   27.00   135.00   .29   Storey, Keith
Lazy daisy   V-B-TR   1951 Aero Modeler My p279   28.00   127.50   .29   Wheeler, Pat
Leighnor Special   V-B-TR   1957 American Modeler Jl p28   28.00   166.00   .29   Plecan, Paul
Lil Milke Special   V-B-TR   unknown   32.00   144.90   .29   Haley, Paul
Man ‘O’ War   V-B-TR   1950 Aero Modeler Jl    26.50   131.00   .29   Moulton, R.G.
Mew Gull   V-B-TR   1949 Flying Models Dc p10   30.00   144.00   .29   Smith, S Cal
Migrator   V-B-TR   1956 Aero Modeler Dc   28.00   126.00   .29   Lutker, Bob
Miles M20   V-B-TR   1951 Aviation Modeler My p222   25.50   141.5   .29   Smith, W.H.
Nemesis   V-B-TR   Aero Modeler    28.75   142.25   .29   Gottarelli, G.
Nimbus   V-B-TR   1956 Aviation Modeler Fb p 82   30.00   225.00   .29   Wilde, H.F.
Ole Slippery   V-B-TR   1952 AT Annl p55   30.00   159.00   .29   Smith, S Cal
Ole Slippery   V-B-TR   1965 American Modeler Annl p84   30.00   159.00   .29   Smith, S Cal
Ole Slippery   V-B-TR   1979 AT CFM-S p48   30.00   159.00   .29   Smith, S Cal
Panther   V-B-TR   1985 Flying Models Jn p38   32.00   150.00   .21   Platt, Dave
Papa Taca IX   V-B-TR   1967 American Modeler Nv p16   35.00   135.00   .29   Perkins, Walt B
Presto   V-B-TR   1952 Aero Modeler Ag p467   24.00   129.00   .29   Hall, H.E.
Pronto   V-B-TR   unknown   29.25   162.50   .29   Bellamy, Adrian
Quest   V-B-TR   1951 Model Airplane News Jl p14   29.75   135.00   .29   Storey, Keith
Rambler 59   V-B-TR   unknown   30.00   109.00   .29   Moir, George
Razzamchas   V-B-TR   1961 Aero Modeler Ot p518   30.50   161.00   .29   Taylor, C.
Red Lightning   V-B-TR   1950 Aviation Modeler Dc p447   29.00   151.00   .29   Rowe, D.W.
Redskin   V-B-TR   Veco Kit   31.00   170.00   .29   Lee, Clarence
Riveter   V-B-TR   1993 Aero Modeler Ag   28.00   140.00   .29   Rae, Gordon
Scramble   V-B-TR   1951 Aero Modeler Nv p659   27.00   131.00   .29   Jones, J.W.
Scrambler   V-B-TR   1954 Model Airplane News Ot p9   27.00   126.00   .29   McBrayer, Les
Sheik   V-B-TR   1954 Model Airplane News Ja p16   25.00   132.00   .29   Johnson, Ken B & Walsh, Aand
Skidoo   V-B-TR   Fawcett plan #1008   24.50   144.00   .29   unknown
Sloe Boat   V-B-TR   2000 Aero Modeler Fb p15   27.75   143.75   .29   Greenwood, Al
Sorcerer   V-B-TR   1954 Aero Modeler Mr   27.50   150.50   .29   Cameron, P.
Starbomb   V-B-TR   unknown   25.00   107.75   .29   Evans, Bill
Stinson   V-B-TR   1961 American Modeler Ag p22   30.88   126.00   .29   Stinson, Bill
Super Saint   V-B-TR   1952 Aero Modeler     29.00   125.00   .29   Marsh, Ken
Super Sky Lancer   V-B-TR   1959 Model Airplane News Jn p20   29.50   136.20   .29   Harp, Ed & Nedela, Joe
Tantivvy   V-B-TR   1953 Aero Modeler Annual   27.00   166.00   .29   Taylor, C.
Team Racer #3   V-B-TR   1951 Model Airplane News Fb p21   26.00   126.00   .29   Musciano, Walt A
Teamster   V-B-TR   1954 Flying Models Jn p9   25.50   86.00   .29   Stevenson, Harold
Thunderbird   V-B-TR   Mercury Kit   29.00   134.50   .29   McGoun, Sid
TR Design   V-B-TR   Model Airplane News Design   27.00   133.00   .29   staff design
Twister   V-B-TR   1959 Flying Models Jl p16   26.75   110.50   .15d   Schauer, Don
Vantage   V-B-TR   FROG Kit   26.40   143.00   .29   unknown
Wrangler   V-B-TR   1953 Model Airplane News Jl p16   27.50   160.00   .299   Chinn, Peter G F

Tom Wilk

rustler · « **Reply #23 on:** November 20, 2009, 01:38:55 PM »

Wrangler - Pete Wright. Chinn wrote the article.

I can pin down what e.g. .29 means, but what are the other figures?

All the best, Ian R.

john e. holliday · « **Reply #24 on:** November 20, 2009, 03:46:40 PM »

Shame on me, I forgot about Sir Thomas Wilk's CD's. .29 is .29 cubic inches. I haven't converted to cc's yet. Like 2.5 cc in Europe is .15 ci in the states. I was just getting a grip on the metric system when the good ole USA decided not to go ahead with it.. All that time and money down the drain.

Lance Smith · « **Reply #25 on:** November 20, 2009, 03:47:34 PM »

Model, Class, Publication and year/page etc, wingspan inch, Wing area inch, engine size, designer.

Lance

Les Akre · « **Reply #26 on:** November 22, 2009, 03:28:49 AM »

Here's a true vintage model from the past. It is a Berkely Quest that was given to me By Tom Knoppi years ago. I can't remember where he got it, or who he got it from. But, I remember him saying he thought it was built by someone in the North West.

Anybody know from the AMA number who's this might have been? I'm always curious about these things. It was originally powered by an O.S. 29 I or II.

Cheers, Les

BillLee · « **Reply #27 on:** November 22, 2009, 06:25:03 AM »

Les, did the OS that you mentioned have the exhaust port on the "wrong" side? If not, it looks like the model was made for a K&B.

Bill

Les Akre · « **Reply #28 on:** November 22, 2009, 05:05:29 PM »

Bill

The bolt pattern is definitely for the O.S. Engine. It is imprinted in the bearers, and unique in its shape. The O.S. 29 from 1949-50 had twin exhaust stacks, I think that would have been the engine used. That would mean that one side of the exhaust was blowing onto the inside of the steel cowl.

Les