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Author Topic: Brodak Electric Super Clown and Brodak Power System review  (Read 3176 times)

Alan Hahn

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Brodak Electric Super Clown and Brodak Power System review
« on: January 27, 2007, 05:23:04 PM »
Review of Brodak Electric Super Clown ARF with Brodak Power system

Hits: Includes almost everything (except prop and battery charger) to get you into electric control line flying at a price point of ~$300 list.
Misses:
1) Instruction book is not up to date with actual production kit. This had an impact (for me at least on the motor mount). Also missing key information on Power System (particularly the ESC and timer).
2) Nose ring is very weak. This is important since this is what is holding the motor to the plane!
3) Slight sanding needed on wing spars in able to slide battery into the wing slot.

The Brodak Electric Super Clown ARF is very similar to the "normal" Super Clown ARF except for a slot in the wing to allow the 4000 maH battery to slide in and the front end where the electric Outrunner Motor is mounted. I haven't checked whether the internal wing construction is strengthened, mainly because my "normal" Super Clown ARF is buried in a closet! I don't know the reason for the missing covering just behind the battery slot. I just guess that originally the battery was suppose to slide all the way back, but that CG considerations required it to protrude slightly from the slot.As it is, the back end of the battery is butting up near the from of that covering gap (see photo #1)

The plane itself builds pretty easy. Mine was all red with a blue rudder. Like most ARFS, you need to remove the covering where the wing, stab, and rudder are glued. On mine, the wing cutout was a bit oversized, so I stuffed thin balsa into the gap, made sure everything was squared and aligned, then hit the joint with thin CA. This does a good job of locking the wing in. Then I pour warm thin epoxy on the wing fuse joint. This grabs and seals the covering and fills any leftover gap in the wing fuse joint. One other thing I do is to run a black Magic Marker felt pen along the wing-fuse joint before pouring the epoxy. What is nice is after the epoxy cures on top of the black, it actually looks pretty good. I only say this because to me the joint between the film covered surfaces always looks kind of crummy and hard to hide. The epoxied covered black color actually emphasizes the joint.

The kit comes with pinned hinges for the ailerons, but CA hinges for the elevator/stab. I am not sure why. I replaced the stiff and "clicky" stock hinges with much smoother Du Bro hinges. However I went with the CA hinges in the elevator/stab because that wood is pretty thin. However I disagree with the way the instructions say to install the CA Hinges. I was taught to put the hinges in both stab and elevator BEFORE putting on the thin CA. This way the CA wicks in both slots. The instructions say to CA the hinges on the elevator first, then attach to the stab and CA again. I thought that if you do it this way, the first CA application may prevent the second application from wicking into the stab. I did it my way, but I can't say the  manual's way won't work.

The most serious issue in my opinion was the nose ring. I attached the motor to the nose ring with the supplied two 3 mm bolts (actually you need 3, but I note the instruction book had a motor that only required two bolts). During a motor run up, I noticed a vibration--odd since one of the advantages of electric is the lack of vibration. The same thing happened when I switched the power off. Upon examination I saw the nose ring was separating from the nose. I easily pulled it completely off. One thing that bothered me was that the front end only had an 1/8 " edge to make the butt glue joint. I tried to epoxy the nose ring back on, but on another run up, the nose ring began to separate again (frantically reaching for the off switch!). Finally I decided to try another fix. I cut roughly 1/4" of the nose off. This exposed more wood surface to glue to (the nose has been sanded to give a nice sloping shape, so backing off gives a beefier edge to glue to. I cut out a new nose ring of 5 layered aircraft plywood and fit it to the nose. In addition I cut another nose ring. This one I placed against the nose, but scribed an internal line so that it would fit just inside the engine compartment. I then epoxied the two pieces together, and after it cured, I epoxied the entire assembly to the nose. The extra nose ring gives the whole thing a nice solid feel. I include a photo (#2) of what I did. I did contact John Brodak by e-mail and detail the nose ring issues.

This brings up the issue of the instruction manual. A very nice cowl (shown on the table in photo # 1) is supplied in the kit, but it isn't mentioned anywhere in the manual. I assumed that it was a cosmetic addition. It seems now that it actually is a structural necessity. I just read Mike Palko's review of this same kit in Control Line World magazine--unfortunately this arrived last week and all my excitement was two weeks ago! With my fix the cowl won't fit anymore. I could make a new one using the prescription given by Bob Zambelli in the same issue, but I think my fix is solid enough---besides, I don't have any condoms and don't think the wife would buy the argument that I need them for this hobby! (You gotta read Bob's method!)

Again a very weak part of this whole system is that nothing is really said about the power system and controller in the manual. The motor box does give some of its key parameters (kv=1500, 30 Amps max, 7 winds, input voltage range up to 14 volts). A small sheet that comes with the timer/switch tells you how to set the length of the flight and how to start the motor, but there isn't any information on the actual Electronic Speed Control (ESC). Hope he's right!! For example, I have a Sig E-Force, a small electric RC version of the P-Force. This came with a brushless outrunner, but I had to supply the ESC and battery. I bought a Castle Creation 10 Amp controller. From its manual I learned that if the prop runs backward, simply switch any two of the three  motor<->ESC wires. The Brodak ESC needs a instruction manual like this.  All I know about the ESC is what Mike Palko writes in his CLW review.

I did replace the battery and ESC connectors. The ones supplied are Tamiya type--the ones you see on the 6 cell NiCAD Packs that are pretty common on electric RC Cars. I changed them to Dean's Ultra connectors mainly because my charger was already setup for Deans (or Astro). During the soldering of the Deans onto the battery, I felt a little nervous, sort of like disarming a live grenade! Those batteries carry some stored power. The one that comes here is a 4000 mAH 20C LiPo. 20C means you can discharge it continously up to 80A. Of course 80 amps would only give you 3 minutes of running time (actually less, you don't want to discharge a LiPo to zero capacity). OOPs (2/3/07), I just realized that the battery is actually a 15C, not 20 C, so should only discharge at 60Amps for 4 minutes!

I haven't actually flown the system yet--need the snow off the ground. I am a little worried that there seems to be a lot of outboard weight, time and flying will tell.

One thing which really has attracted me to electrics is the possibility to really measure what is going on in a control line flight. The electric motor is a pretty simple predictable device when compared to your standard glow engine. To this purpose I bought an EagleTree Data recorder. This $70 device plugs in between the battery and the ESC. I also purchased a brushless rpm probe. So now I can measure both battery voltage and current plus the motor rpm while flying. The information is downloaded to a Windows (only sore point!) PC after the flying session. You can then see how the power levers were running during the flight. I include a plot of I took with three props on the Super Clown. The first was an old Top Flite 9-4, the second a Graupner 9-4 CAM prop, and the third an electric APC 9-4.5. Notice that the Top Flite was pulling over 40 Amps at the start. These values are all static, so the amperage should drop one the plane gets in the air--how much I am curious about. Notice the electric characteristic that as the load goes down and rpm goes up, amperage drops--good for the battery.  These props can be seen, along with the data recorder (on the table) in the first photo.

Summarizing, I am looking forward to getting this puppy up in the air. The weight of everything except the 4000 mAH battery is 22.3 oz. The battery weighs 11 oz. So total up weight is 33.3 oz. I am curious what my (unbuilt) SuperClown ARF with a Brodak 25 + fuel tank weighs. Maybe I will build it just to find out how it flies and behaves in comparison the the electric.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2007, 07:57:01 PM by Alan Hahn »

Offline Mike Palko

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Re: Brodak Electric Super Clown and Brodak Power System review
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2007, 08:39:48 PM »
Alan,
   Great review!! I am sorry to hear you had problems with your electric ARF!!! Unfortunately it's not the first time I have heard of these problems.

   This project as you may or may not know started in June of 2005 and finally came to completion in November of 2006. Along the way there were many drastic changes.

   The weak motor mount is a big issue!!! It could seriously hurt someone. The prototype I put together for John Brodak had a fiberglassed nose inside the mount and also on the cheek cowl side. I have countless flights on that airplane without a single problem.

   When the production version was manufactured and shipped to me for initial testing I found the nose ring to be weak also. Unfortunately, I found out in the air!!! The motor pulled off halfway through the first flight, but surprisingly the power system survived the crash. I had just assumed the nose was glassed as the prototype was. I never thought to check and because it was covered in film it didn't stand out that it wasn't glassed.

   The reason the production version didn't have a glassed nose is because the manufacturing facility didn't have the capability of doing fiberglass work. They also couldn't go back and strip the covering off several hundred airplanes and redo the noses. The manufacturers suggestion was to supply a fiberglass cowling, that they could have molded by another supplier, to slip over the nose and epoxy in place. In my CLW review I added you may need to hand fit the cowl because the airplanes are hand built and each one is different. The cowls don't always fit perfectly. I also reccommended adding a strip of fiberglass to the inside of the motor mount in conjunction with the use of the cowl.

   Unfortunately the recommendation I made about just pulling the covering off the nose and glassing it yourself (the best thing to do) was edited out of my review and they substituted (see Z-Tech tips, page 46) in place of it. The Z-Tech type cowl is basically what comes with the airplane, so I m not sure why they would recommend making another cowl?

   As for the instructions, they never made it into the box. Again I am not sure why, but it is a big deal. If you don't know how the power system works you may get a surprise when it turns on and gets away from you, or worse, catches a finger or hand in the prop.

   The battery fitment issue was another problem. Again, the wings were built and when the time came to order the batteries the supplier had changed the price, putting it out of Johns target price range. We found another battery, but it didn't fit the original cutout in the wing. I made the needed changes to the built wing and sent it to China so they could do the same mods to the production version. I honestly haven't seen the final production run, so I can't say if the spar is reinforced. The wing I sent them was a perfect fit for the battery, the spar was braced and the cutout in the wing allowed cooling air through.

   If anyone has any questions please post them here and I will answer them. John and I have already talked about the issues and we don't understand why the probelms that were fixed are still showing up. I believe John is going to try to get instructions in the box for the current models and fix the motor mount and battery fitment on future runs.       

Offline Mike Palko

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Re: Brodak Electric Super Clown and Brodak Power System review
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2007, 08:56:44 PM »
   Here is a copy of the instructions.

   I used an APC-E 9x4.5 repitched to 9x4 and it gave me spirited flight performance.

   Again, if anyone has any questions feel free to ask.

Offline Bill Smith

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Re: Brodak Electric Super Clown and Brodak Power System review
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2007, 09:04:18 PM »
Nice review Alan
To save you the trouble my Super Clown ARF with a fox 19 (old one) is 24.5 ounces.
when do I get to see this fly.

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Brodak Electric Super Clown and Brodak Power System review
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2007, 06:49:05 AM »
To paraphrase the review:

"This $300 electric ARF is good enough to be built and flown by an experienced expert who can detect all the problems and engineer corrections."

Kids, don't try this at home !!
Paul Smith

Alan Hahn

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Re: Brodak Electric Super Clown and Brodak Power System review
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2007, 10:08:16 AM »
Well the actual plane is ~$70. It's the electric part that costs, the battery itself ~$90. If not for that, then you are paying ~$40 premium over a Brodak 25 engine. For those of us who are more tinkerer's at heart, the answer is probably yes.

Yes I agree and said that the instructions need to be improved. That would be a simple thing to do. I did e-mail John Brodak and made a point about it. After all this really is an entry level electric system

Offline Mike Palko

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Re: Brodak Electric Super Clown and Brodak Power System review
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2007, 11:11:12 AM »
Nice review Alan
To save you the trouble my Super Clown ARF with a fox 19 (old one) is 24.5 ounces.
when do I get to see this fly.

Bill,
  What does your Super Clown weight with a tank of fuel ready to fly? I'm not trying to say the electric Super Clown isn't heavier, I'm just trying to give a fair comparison.

   This goes for any electric airplane. IC ships are weighed w/o fuel. Electric ships are weighed with "fuel". It makes people believe electric airplanes are heavier than they actually are.

   Either way I think you will like the performance..........

   

Offline Bill Smith

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Re: Brodak Electric Super Clown and Brodak Power System review
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2007, 03:51:45 PM »
all up 27 ounces.
I don't think the electric is all that heavy. As long as it has what it takes to pull it through the squares and thats why I want to see it fly.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2007, 07:00:49 PM by bill smith »

Alan Hahn

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Re: Brodak Electric Super Clown and Brodak Power System review
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2007, 07:43:37 PM »
Actually I am wondering if you need that bug whopper battery for a single flight, or whether we can get by with a smaller and lighter battery.

Offline Mike Palko

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Re: Brodak Electric Super Clown and Brodak Power System review
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2007, 04:56:44 PM »
   If you want to be capable of flying a full pattern you will need the 4000mah capacity. 

   If you want a lighter pack you will need a higher "C" rated pack. I would think any of the newer 20-25C packs in the 2200mah range will drop a good 4oz off the AUW and still give you about 3-3.5min of flight time.   

Offline Warren Leadbeatter

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Re: Brodak Electric Super Clown and Brodak Power System review
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2007, 02:07:45 PM »
Hi Mike

Nice job with the CLW article on the Electric Super Clown. In your article, you talk about using 9x4 E prop, but the parts list mentioned later in the article says a 9x6 E.  Can you just clear that up for us?

Also, being and electronics engineer myself, one thing I don't like is all the exposed wires and circuit boards. This is only from an asthetics viewpoint.  Would it be acceptable to enclose these in a small plastic jiffy box?

Alan, it's good to see the persective from a builder of the production model.  Have you relayed your concerns to Brodaks?

Regards,
Warren
Warren Leadbeatter
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Offline Mike Palko

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Re: Brodak Electric Super Clown and Brodak Power System review
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2007, 08:34:00 AM »
Hi Warren,
   Thanks for the kind words. The 9x6 prop is a misprint. I used an APC-E 9x4.5 with 60' lines and the Clown was still a little fast. A 9x4 should be real close.

   I know the exposed wires/boards look bad, but thats the downside of a profile. The ESC needs air over it for cooling and the Brodak timer needs easy access to start the motor for each flight. I am sure you could design a neat box with and intake scoop, exit hole and a simple spring latch to hold it closed after you start the motor. I see no reason it wouldn't work with proper access and cooling.

   Yes, John knows about the problems and is working on fixing them.

Mike   

Offline Bill Little

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Re: Brodak Electric Super Clown and Brodak Power System review
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2007, 12:36:12 PM »
HI Mike,

While I have not personally plunged into the electric "waters", I want to thank you for the work you have put into making this something that everyone "can" get into.  Without you, Bob, Dean, and ??, this part of model aviation would not be a widely available possibility.

I also thank John Brodak for having the foresight to bring out the package!  Working out the "bugs" should be acceptable to us all since this is still a fairly new area of expertise.

I can see electric as a very viable package for many, and the "noise" issues will definitely be positively impacted by the future acceptance of electrics.

Just waiting for "money" to catch up with "desire". y1  I have a TON invested in my old methanol powerplants and airplanes.  But, with advances happening so rapidly in the electric area, I am certain that the time is not far away that the benefits will be greatly appreciated. and performance issues will be "nonexistent".

Thank you!
Bill <><
Big Bear <><

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Trying to get by

Alan Hahn

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Re: Brodak Electric Super Clown and Brodak Power System review
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2007, 12:49:16 PM »
Warren,
In my review, I mention that I had contacted John B. about this. I have heard back that the instruction manual is being updated to include (at least) gluing the fiberglass cowl onto the front end. That will really help the problem.

Here by the way is a picture of my EagleTree data recorder velcro'd to the battery. Still aching for that good weather. I am really curious as to the current draw when I am really flying. I note that the highest current draw I saw during the static checkout of props was ~40 A, which could be handled by a 10C 4000mAh. The battery I have is a 20C, capable an 80 A continuous draw (for 3 mintutes at least). I want to see how I can try to optimize my flight time and power budget (still looking for a smaller battery). Of course this may be a futile operation!  HB~>

Offline Mike Palko

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Re: Brodak Electric Super Clown and Brodak Power System review
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2007, 05:13:42 PM »
HI Mike,

While I have not personally plunged into the electric "waters", I want to thank you for the work you have put into making this something that everyone "can" get into.  Without you, Bob, Dean, and ??, this part of model aviation would not be a widely available possibility.

I also thank John Brodak for having the foresight to bring out the package!  Working out the "bugs" should be acceptable to us all since this is still a fairly new area of expertise.

I can see electric as a very viable package for many, and the "noise" issues will definitely be positively impacted by the future acceptance of electrics.

Just waiting for "money" to catch up with "desire". y1  I have a TON invested in my old methanol powerplants and airplanes.  But, with advances happening so rapidly in the electric area, I am certain that the time is not far away that the benefits will be greatly appreciated. and performance issues will be "nonexistent".

Thank you!
Bill <><

Thank you Bill!!!

   Electric is something I want ANYONE to be able to do if they so choose. The only factor that should hold anyone back is money, and that is just a temporary issue. The Brodak Super Clown cut the start up price almost in half and that is just the beginning.

   Sure you can say they still need all the support equipment, but not really. If you use the Super Clown as intended there should be nothing to check or setup. If you can get through the assembly of the model and simple plug and play electronics (I know the directions are poor right now) you don't need to measure amp draw, % of battery discharge, program a timer, pick a complete power system one component at a time etc........... If they decide to persue electric power they can then purchase the support equipment. If not, then they didn't break the bank trying it. 

   Electric power may not save the hobby, or even generate a whole lot of new interest, but if anything has a chance electric power does. I get e-mails almost daily from retreads, newbies, and IC fliers who all have a new interest in C/L because of electric power. I even have people tell me KIDS are flying with them in local PARKS. If you ever have a hope of seeing C/L flying in school yards and parks again, electric may be the answer. I know C/L will never be what it was (times have changed), but I think it can be more than it is!

   Not only does electric possibly allow us to keep old flying fields, but it may generate new flying fields. One area of the hobby that has received little attention is indoor C/L. I know most C/L fliers don't accept change well (I  found that out 4 years ago, and still hear about it time to time), but a new off season competition is now possible. Wether it's indoor competition, indoor funflying or even indoor BS sessions with a few models around it's possible new interest (for all of us).

   We just need to convince some that electric isn't going to overtake the hobby and make it a rich mans competition (at least I am not pushing for that). I know it will have benefits in NATS and world competition, but it will also have benefits for the average sport flyer at the local school yard. Electric (hopefully) is going to make C/L that much more enjoyable and realistic, especially in the distant future. 

Online peabody

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Re: Brodak Electric Super Clown and Brodak Power System review
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2007, 06:57:41 AM »
Battery Boy:
There are several in the AMA that believe that electrics will be the salvation of air-modeling in almost any form...
And I applaud you for sticking to the project(s)....your red plane certainly proves that electric power is viable enough to attract a past National and World champion....

The Stupid Clown is a huge step n the right direction....

Thanks

Offline Bill Smith

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Re: Brodak Electric Super Clown and Brodak Power System review
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2007, 03:27:29 PM »
  #^ #^
come on Alan
lets go fly this, I'll bring hot coco #

Alan Hahn

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Re: Brodak Electric Super Clown and Brodak Power System review
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2007, 07:43:16 PM »
Look at my weather temps Bill. I bet it is even colder out in the Sandwich area!

Offline bob branch

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Re: Brodak Electric Super Clown and Brodak Power System review
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2007, 09:01:53 PM »
Mike

I agree with electric having the potential to bring younger people to a school yard to fly. Heck, if we could have gotten our motors to run more often as a kid a lot of my friends back then would not have quit from frustration!
Case and point, ask any member of an RC club how many new kids have come out to fly at the club in the last year. You'll see a wistful and discouraged look. Well, an 83 year old member of our club is now doing the second consecutive year of going to a Jr High school, and teaching groups of kids to build and fly RC plate foamies INDOORS! I know most of the CL guys have not exprienced this, but believe me, there is nothing more difficult in RC than flying indoors! The class starts at 7 AM in the morning! Last year, 8 kids completed the course, this year 7 did their solos this last week!. Boys and girls. BTW, you will find an RC club exstatic if they can get one or 2 kids to come out and fly at all, much less newbies.  Take a look at Dick Sarpolis' little electric plate profile cl planes. My kids learned to fly on 0.49 versions of the same planes. Electric would have let them go fly alot more when dad wasn't there.

Oh, I fly glo and electric RC, and glo and now this year electric CL as well.

Bob Branch


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