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Author Topic: Sanding between white base coats?  (Read 1443 times)

Offline Mike Scholtes

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Sanding between white base coats?
« on: October 28, 2009, 06:23:53 PM »
Sorry if this has been asked a zillion times before, but here goes:

I used Sig nitrate as the adhesion coat on an Olympic Mark VI covered with silkspan, then Sig clear butyrate as the filler coat, and now have on several coats of Brodak "white primer," kind of a light grey butyrate. Using Randolph butyrate thinner in all the butyrate products. Wet sanded the primer coats with 600 grit and have a nice smooth substrate for the white "base" or more properly "finish" coat. I am doing a replica of Gialdini's paint scheme, almost all white. I will be using Sig white dope followed by Randolph's non-tautening clear.

What is the concensus on sanding between coats of the white base/finish? And then, once the white has gassed off for a few weeks, what about sanding (I have 1500 and 2000 grit wet paper) the last white coat before the clear goes on? And finally, what about sanding the clear coats, including the final coat before buffing? I am not going for (nor capable of) a 20-point finish, but want it to look good. Without spending 300 hours on it.

Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Sanding between white base coats?
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2009, 09:21:11 PM »
Just be careful about going though the paint. If you shoot on trim colors, it's very easy to go through on the edges. I prefer to shoot the base coat and trim color then shoot on a coat of two of clear before sanding. Sometimes, you can get away with sanding the base coat a bit to give some traction for trim colors, but go easy. If you shoot the base color on right, it will be thin and very easy to sand through.
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Sanding between white base coats?
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2009, 12:31:57 PM »
Agreed with Randy,
One additional problem that can come from sanding base coats especially white, is that trace color elements can actually hide in the sanding scratches and when you shoot clear, they come back to haunt you in the way of color patches. ESPECIALLY with red or maroons. If you are going to sand on the color coats, I would NOT sand anything red or maroon, and only sand the white lightly to get rid of dirt nibs. You should be spraying the white evenly enough that sanding texture, or orange peal, is not a concern.
I would just touch the spots where you have dirt chunks lightly with 600 but be advised you may need to spray that area lightly again to cover the sanded off dirt spot or you will end up with a black fleck .
best solution, dont sand after you put your final color coats on, sand only on the clear. On Dope, I would sand with 1200 or 1500  prior to buffing. You can sand lightly to  open the surface up  and accelerate the "gassing" off of the clear coats. Then sand thouroughly prior to buffing. This of course after a LONG dry period.
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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Sanding between white base coats?
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2009, 01:04:25 PM »
Mark,

The other thing you can do, though it can pile up weight fast, is to shoot a light coat of clear between colors. Shoot the white, sand it until your happy (and it's really smooth from sanding with 1500) then shoot clear on to seal it up. Then shoot the first trim color, carefully knock the edges off and shoot clear to seal that. It works, but you can end up with a lot of coats of clear on the plane. Better to shoot even coats that lay out well and just shoot one color after another the seal the whole thing with clear. A couple of coats and you can sand it smooth (lightly), add inklines, decals, graphics or whatever then shoot final clear.
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Sanding between white base coats?
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2009, 01:36:11 PM »
Randy,
I agree with the theory, However I don't like the idea of sanding color with 1500. The finest I would recommend sanding color coats with is 800 or possibly 1200 and never, NEVER sand any color that has metallic or pearl in it ( or candy for that matter)
The problem I have with sanding that fine on color coats is , the tendency in our world is to put on light coats, with 1500 grit scratches, you don't gain any mechanical tooth . When you spray light layers with lacquer, you are depending upon mechanical tooth to hold the coat in place until you "flood" it with clear to melt it all together/ The particles of paint that hit the surface can actually bridge over the scratch and form non adhesive areas. I would much rather see a slightly larger scratch pattern to insure mechanical grip for subsequent layers. Bopttom line, unless you are spraying pearls, you wont see an 800 grit scratch. In fact, I prep sand with 400 dry a lot of times. The only advantage that I can see to using finer grits ( read that 1200 or 1500 ) is that you wont sand through the color.

Remember with lacquer, you must get solvent penetration in order to have good adhesion. However, this solvent penetration can come from later coats as the solvent will push all the way to the base and then back out if there is enough solvent, and enough time. This is why every coat you spray brings back those darn imperfections that you so carefully sanded away ( that is if you pound on the coats to fast or to heavy)
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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Sanding between white base coats?
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2009, 04:21:23 PM »
>>( read that 1200 or 1500 ) is that you wont sand through the color. <<

You are probably right. But I was thinking of someone that hadn't done this much before. Harder to sand through. Heck, I've used 800 grit wet to level catalyzed polyurethane topcoat when I've gotten a lot of orange peel in it before going to lighter stuff then compound, but you have to have a light touch or you'll go through in a couple of strokes.

As Mark and I have said on several occasions, there is as much art as science when doing finishes on fragile balsa planes. Things you can do without thought when painting a car (multiple layers of heavy paint coats, transparent buildups, heavy sanding with low grits - with a block and similar) you'd never consider on a balsa plane. To get similar effects, you have to get creative. Sometimes it works, sometimes not.

Oh, and Mark's comment made in passing should be written in big letters on your shop wall: Never sand pearl, metallic or other exotic colors unless you are sanding it off to do it again.
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Offline Clint Ormosen

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Re: Sanding between white base coats?
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2009, 10:29:54 PM »
Mike, you've seen my planes. There is no sanding at all between the first color coat and the last of the trim colors (except for knocking down the ridge the trim tape leaves.) After primer sanding, I don't touch it again untill some clear is on it.
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Offline Greg L Bahrman

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Re: Sanding between white base coats?
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2009, 03:41:15 PM »
I'm not a painter but a couple of things I learned the hard way. 1. When you pick your color that's when you should decide what color of primer you are going to use under it. For primer there's usually Rust color, Dark Grey and Light Grey and White. If you pick the wrong color primer it will take more coats of paint to cover it (read that as heavier). 2. When doing your color sanding (wet or I guess it could be dry) somehow keep your sandpaper separate. Sandpaper for white goes in this box, and sandpaper for different colors go in their individual separate boxes or I used large baggies. If you use sandpaper on white that you already used on red you will transfer red to the sandpaper scratches in the white and I played heck trying to clean it up after (read that as stupid me). I know it's probably basic to Randy and Mark and others but like I said I had to learn the hard way. Also remember 3 things when painting: Patience, Patience, Patience. Do not rush anything and I am not kidding. Painting can be pure hell or it can be a pure joy.........Good luck.......Mr. nobody
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Offline Mike Scholtes

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Re: Sanding between white base coats?
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2009, 04:57:59 PM »
Thanks guys! If our nice weather holds I will be able to get the white "color" coats on in the next few days. The feeling seems to be either no sanding of color coats at all, or very minimal. I am glad to hear it since wet sanding is a gawdawful mess on my patio and usually in my shoes. There will be only a very little amount of red trim in keeping with Gialdini's paint scheme.

Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Sanding between white base coats?
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2009, 10:52:35 PM »
Mike,

Two more things (just to confuse you a bit more). After shooting on trim colors, you can use an old credit card to scrape the edge that is created by the tape along the edge of the trim. This will take off quite a lot and make it easier to bury the edge of trim color in the clear.

The other things if you are just looking to get caught dust out of the base color is to use fine steel wool. I do this sometimes to level the surface of the base before trim colors. If you are careful not to go through the base color, this can give a bit of mechanical traction to the trim colors and decals and such.
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Sanding between white base coats?
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2009, 12:17:48 AM »
Randy,
One caution with Steel wool, a LOT of steel wool is treated with oil to prevent corrosion of the fine fibers. I think that some woodworking steel wool is oil free. Just another thing that can bite you if you are unsuspecting,, yeah go ahead, ask me how I know THIS one!  The credit card trick works well if the color is totally dry, something I have seen bite people is to try to "scrape" it before its dry enough, and it just folds back on itself and sticks!

I know you and lots of others know this stuff, but by my nature, I always assume somebody is reading that doesnt know, so I have to be nit picky, sorry if its boring to ya'all

did you say you were jetting off to the land of bikinis and sand sometime soon?
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Offline Mike Scholtes

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Re: Sanding between white base coats?
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2009, 05:57:09 PM »
Well, I for one appreciate all the information and the benefit of learning from someone else's mishaps so I don't have to make them myself! I am pretty good at inventing my own, by the way. I am still relatively new at trying to get a decent dope finish so I welcome all advice from you who know how. I'm sure there are a lot of others lurking out there who will benefit from these discussions too.

Now, what's this about sand and bikinis?

Offline Balsa Butcher

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Re: Sanding between white base coats?
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2009, 08:26:27 PM »
In my years of working with dope finishes I have had every one of the problems listed above happen to me. It is still a trial and error process but  at least now I know that I do not suffer alone. Thanks guys.  8)
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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Sanding between white base coats?
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2009, 08:34:49 PM »
Mark,

yea, it's always a good idea to clean the plane before paint just in case you get some steel wool with oil (or any number of other contaminates). A good wipe with PrepSol or similar will do the trick. The card scraping trick works great, but as you note, the paint has to be dry. I've had some luck with card scrapping before pulling tape on paint that is generally "dry" but I'm concerned due to the humidity level. Again, you have to be careful not to tear the paint.

Yea, I'm getting out of town for a couple of weeks. Be nice to sit somewhere sunny for a bit and stare mindlessly at the ocean. That's my plan. Develop Polynesian Paralysis.

Edit

Well, were here. It's 81 degrees, partly cloudy, I can see the ocean out the window, hear the surf and they have free wifi. Can't beat that.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2009, 07:38:22 PM by Randy Powell »
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Sanding between white base coats?
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2009, 10:17:00 PM »
SWEET, now if you were really with it, you would have AutoCad loaded in the laptop and you could design your next three stunters under the watchfull eye of the pacific sun
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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Sanding between white base coats?
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2009, 06:50:24 PM »
Taking the thread completed off topic...

Mark, I have my next two planned out already. I'm working with Denny on a classic that will be next up and then another Ringmonster Deluxe. That should do for the foreseeable future. The classic will be fun, but is under wraps until the plans are approved.
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