Author Topic: Painting a new plane (Read 8202 times)

Randy Powell · « **on:** August 12, 2009, 12:11:03 PM »

Well, I've thought a lot about finishing as I'm building the new weapon. Over the past 4 or 5 planes, I've tried all kinds of stuff. Some worked out and some either had adhesion problems or weight issues or whatever. Non-flyable in any case and one in particular that is so piggy that it's not worth messing with until it can be stripped and refinished.

So, with those disasters in mind, I have a couple of thoughts. First, I'm only going to use techniques that I've used before and that worked. I tend to use the auto toners mixed with dope for color. I'm getting new colors for this plane and, taking the advice of some painters I respect, I'm going to go heavy on the binder and light on the toners. Better to put on several light coats to bring the color up (and letting the solvent evap out) than one coat the covers well but is heavier and could develop adhesion problems (of which I've often fought with).

Second to cut down on the over-masking. While back masking is a pain in the backside, laying down just one layer of paint is a good thing. My last finish, largely due to getting cute with metallics and candy colors along with way, way, way too much clear on top for various reason, was clearly the heaviest finish I've ever laid on a plane. I mean, a 22 oz finish on a 640 square inch plane seems a little excessive. So, the goal on this one (616 squares) is a sub 8oz finish. That's where I'll be thinking.

Clear dope is lighter than just about any paint. Most of it is solvents that go away and even the Randolp's I use is only about 15% solids (12% if I use Certified). So, I'm opting for almost no filler coat (primer). I'll do most if not all the build up from paper with clear dope. It's just lighter than even zinc sterate let alone talc.

I have an idea for color that should prove lighter than the norm. We'll see. But it will be bright without a lot of toner in there. And the clear coat on top will still be catalyzed polyurethane, but it will be thin. If I can get the color surface underneath to be very smooth and without much in the way of blemish, then the topcoat should be pretty easy.

Getting a good looking but light finish is an art form without a doubt. We'll see if I've learned anything.

Mark Scarborough · « **Reply #1 on:** August 12, 2009, 12:49:38 PM »

Kudos Randy,
great logic,, now just stay the course!
so is the new bird about ready to start finishing?

Randy Powell · « **Reply #2 on:** August 12, 2009, 03:28:51 PM »

Mark,

No, it's not really close yet, but you have to start thinking of this stuff early, ya know. Right now the fuse box is done and I just started to set up the blocks to carve (I have an idea for a weird sort of cowling. Man, I've really go to stop the Balsa Sculpting stuff). And the wing is mostly done. Just have to finish up the controls and lay on the sheeting and cap strips. I've thought about the tail plane, but that's as far as it's gone and haven't even thought about the rudder yet.

Should have it mostly framed up by the end of next week, time permitting. Since I'm not going with wheelpants this time (I don't think, anyway), it should be ready to start slopping on the finish in a couple of weeks.

Cool looking plane so far.

Allan Perret · « **Reply #3 on:** August 12, 2009, 05:36:11 PM »

Quote from: Randy Powell on August 12, 2009, 12:11:03 PM

So, I'm opting for almost no filler coat (primer). I'll do most if not all the build up from paper with clear dope. It's just lighter than even zinc sterate let alone talc.

I thought the reason we added the fillers to clear dope for the substrate was because it was lighter ? ? ?
It does sand a lot easier with the fillers ...

Randy Powell · « **Reply #4 on:** August 12, 2009, 05:42:11 PM »

Allan,

In my opinion it's mostly convenience. The filler sands a lot easier and fills holes more quickly. Don't get me worng, filler isn't a bad thing. But my recent experience tells me that dope is ultimately lighter. I'll still use filler to hit any areas that need some fill (other than grain), but hopefully, there won't be much if any filler on it.

Larry Fulwider · « **Reply #5 on:** August 14, 2009, 06:13:03 AM »

Quote from: Randy Powell on August 12, 2009, 12:11:03 PM

. . . taking the advice of some painters I respect, I'm going to go heavy on the binder and light on the toners. Better to put on several light coats to bring the color up (and letting the solvent evap out) . . .

Do you have any numbers for heavy / light ratios of toner to dope? Grams of toner per ounce of dope? Or do you mix by volume? I assume the ratio varies by color?

Larry Fulwider

john e. holliday · « **Reply #6 on:** August 14, 2009, 08:22:20 AM »

Larry, in my experience as far as mixing by weight is to stay with grams. It is much more accurate than ounces. Got my triple beam scale back when I was trying to compete in F2C. Used it yesterday to weigh wing ribs for new planes. All that time spent learning or trying to learn the metric system and watch it fall through the floor. DOC Holliday

Randy Powell · « **Reply #7 on:** August 14, 2009, 09:13:24 AM »

Larry,

Generally, when I go to the paint store to have the guys mix up a color, they just mix it up in a pint can. Used to be, they would mix it as if they were making it for a car then leave out the clear (urethane) binder, but the last couple of times, they just mixed up the color in a full can (I still don't know how they calculate that - probably just a readout from the computer). So I have to determine how much toner and how much clear to put in. Often, I have used too much toner. So I will be more conservative this time and cut down on inevitable adhesion problems (along with additional weight).

FLOYD CARTER · « **Reply #8 on:** August 14, 2009, 09:49:50 AM »

For the very lightest finish, let me suggest clear butyrate with dye powders mixed in. The effect can be very stunning. Analine dye powder will easily dissolve in butyrate thinner, and adds almost zero weight beyond that of clear dope.

The dye powders are available at a store catering to woodworking supplies.

Floyd

Randy Powell · « **Reply #9 on:** August 14, 2009, 02:51:06 PM »

Floyd,

The only problem with aniline dye is that it can fade in the sun. For color, when I want to get the dyed silkspan look, I use House of Kolor's Kandy Koncentrates. A bit of Red Apple candy in clear is awesome.

But I was mostly talking about building up the substrate for application of color.

Allan Perret · « **Reply #10 on:** August 15, 2009, 06:42:11 AM »

Quote from: Randy Powell on August 14, 2009, 02:51:06 PM

For color, when I want to get the dyed silkspan look, I use House of Kolor's Kandy Koncentrates. A bit of Red Apple candy in clear is awesome.

What about using a small amount of butyrate color to tint the butyrate clear for a dyed silkspan look ??

Jim Kraft · « **Reply #11 on:** August 15, 2009, 06:46:36 PM »

I have been using nothing but clear dope with no fillers for years, ever since I read Detrichs (sp) article on the Cobra. His Cobra was a fair sized plane and total wt. from start to finish was 8 oz. My finishes do not look like his though, and I brush all of mine. I have been using silk from Dharma Trading, and I am very pleased with the wt. my planes finish at. It seems to hide grain well, and produces a smoother finish with less work.

Randy Powell · « **Reply #12 on:** August 16, 2009, 09:31:43 PM »

Allan

I suppose you could. I've never tried it. the ability to get a consistent color might be an issue.

Jim,

Yea, it's possible to build up with just clear, just takes a lot of coats. but is sure can look pretty. And it is lighter.

Jim Kraft · « **Reply #13 on:** August 17, 2009, 06:44:31 PM »

Yea Randy; It does take lots of coats. I thin all of them at least 50%, and sometimes more. It is good therapy brushing dope as the cover firms up and it starts to develop a nice shine. The reason I brush on the color coats is because I am basically lazy, and do not like to mask the whole plane for just one trim color. I have a spray gun, a compressor, and three air brushes, and I will probably use them again some day. Oh! We all know people who play with model airplanes need therapy.

Bill Little · « **Reply #14 on:** August 19, 2009, 07:14:50 AM »

Hi Randy,

I know you are on the right track. The lightest finish I have done was on the I-beam Vulcan and all I used for filler was tinted Randolph's Non-tautening Nitrate on all the wood surfaces. Of course, I know you don't like Nitrate, but it is higher in solids than butyrate yet lighter than filler, builds up a *little* quicker.

Mongo

Randy Powell · « **Reply #15 on:** August 21, 2009, 10:37:31 AM »

Bill,

Well, unthinned Randolph's Butyrate builds pretty fast too (pretty much maple syrup consistency). If you thin it, it takes longer.

Should have something to start finishing in a week or so. We'll see. I'm getting clever again with the leadout setup, so I may fall behind while I mess around with my new toy.

james harper · « **Reply #16 on:** October 25, 2009, 04:19:39 PM »

Gentlemen, could any one suggest the procedure for mixing talc in dope, quanities, etc. thank you

Randy Powell · « **Reply #17 on:** October 25, 2009, 07:33:36 PM »

James,

When I've used filler coat, I just shovel talc into dope until I'm happy. Generally, in a given container, about 1/4 talc and 3/4 dope then thin it to spraying consistency.

Randy Powell · « **Reply #18 on:** November 15, 2009, 01:31:30 PM »

Well, I'm back from vacation and still sanding. I did come up with a paint scheme, though.

Randy Powell · « **Reply #19 on:** November 21, 2009, 11:13:05 PM »

well, I finally finished sanding the main airframe. Now the flaps, elevators and wheel skirts. Then I'm afraid I'm going to have to shoot some primer, but virtually all of that will be sanded off. Probably easier than hunting down every minor low spot and trying to spot those. Sigh... more sanding.

Mark Scarborough · « **Reply #20 on:** November 21, 2009, 11:59:58 PM »

Randy, remember its Zen and the art of sanding, its where you become one with the plane, develope that intimate relationship with the craft ,,

Randy Ryan · « **Reply #21 on:** November 22, 2009, 12:29:59 PM »

I HATE sanding until I start, then I drift off into LALA land and sand until my wrists are numb!

Matt Colan · « **Reply #22 on:** November 22, 2009, 03:17:57 PM »

Pretend Sanding's fun!!! That was a recommendation Windy made in one of his Crash Repairs column in Stunt News.

Randy Powell · « **Reply #23 on:** November 22, 2009, 03:19:55 PM »

This method certainly uses a lot more sanding, It's good for the soul. It builds character. Yea, that's it.

Edit

Well, after three hours in the saddle, my fingers and wrists ache and my back is killing me and I only got one elevator and one flap sanded. Oh, and the gear doors. Sanding open bays is so much fun. I got some major runs on the elevators (penalty of trying to get too much clear on in one coat - hey, it was late). So sanding those out is no party. It's slow, painstaking work. but it's all level now (at least one elevator). The flap was easy. Sadly, it's clearly going to need either another heavy coat of unthinned clear (with more brush strokes to sand out), 3 or 4 coats of spray on thinned clear or a coat of primer. I think I'll go with primer since it's one coat and virtually all of it will come off. And yes, I'll get to do more sanding. Man, my character should be well built by the time this is done.

Shultzie · « **Reply #24 on:** November 23, 2009, 09:47:25 AM »

Quote from: Randy Powell on November 22, 2009, 03:19:55 PM

This method certainly uses a lot more sanding, It's good for the soul. It builds character. Yea, that's it.

Edit

Man, my character should be well built by the time this is done.

May the Lord of Stunt...between the earth and sky...where de' angels fly...be with you n' yers' RANDYMAN![/color]

Randy Powell · « **Reply #25 on:** November 23, 2009, 12:05:59 PM »

Uh, Thanks Donnie, I think.

Shultzie · « **Reply #26 on:** November 24, 2009, 04:22:37 PM »

Quote from: Randy Powell on November 23, 2009, 12:05:59 PM

Uh, Thanks Donnie, I think.

Hey...Randy!!!

Your paint concepts are always sooooooo tasteee' n' amazing....just do what U do-do' so well!
If you GIVE UP...JUST GO FOR BLACK?

Randy Powell · « **Reply #27 on:** November 26, 2009, 11:28:07 PM »

Well, I sanded the clear and made an executive decision. I went ahead and shot primer on it. I suspect that 99% of it will come off, but there were a lot of little spots that would have taken 3-4 coats of thinned clear to fill and it seemed that primer would be easier. Sigh...

Lots of sanding to go.

Mark Scarborough · « **Reply #28 on:** November 27, 2009, 11:36:30 AM »

Well Randy,
sanding is therapy for the soul,, or even for the sole as you stand there,,

I am sure its worth it,,

Randy Powell · « **Reply #29 on:** November 28, 2009, 12:43:52 AM »

Mark,

Well, I got the fuse sanded today and one elevator (some testing of a repair of a sand through I did). Going pretty well. A coat of clear over the top to lock it down when I'm done and another round of sanding with 600 and I'll be ready for base color (I hope). Maybe by the end of the weekend..

Besides, sanding will be good therapy as I'm watching the Apple Cup. I love a good trouncing.

Mark Scarborough · « **Reply #30 on:** November 28, 2009, 11:13:18 AM »

<deleted>

Sorry, hit the wrong button. You were saying? <I didn't even know I could do that - Randy>

Randy Powell · « **Reply #31 on:** November 28, 2009, 09:07:05 PM »

Uh Mark, son't bother. That's what's called a Beatin" Man, you guys look bad. Sorry.

On a sunnier note, the plane is sanded and a coat of 75% clear shot on (two coats, actually). So, sand that an color can go on. Wheeeeee!

Mark Scarborough · « **Reply #32 on:** November 28, 2009, 11:28:01 PM »

Randy,, well ok so you deleted my post, lol,,

thats ok, I still have my dignity,, ( well since no one else can read my post now, I have dignity )
lol
well, when both of your quarterbacks get taken out, and your backup punter is playing quarterback, I guess its ok to get stomped,,

anyway, thats over now,
good news on the plane,, anxious to see pictures
* yes that was a deliberate change of subject,, *

Randy Powell · « **Reply #33 on:** November 29, 2009, 11:59:18 AM »

Mark,

Could have been worse. Did you see the USC/UCLA game. Ouch.

Randy Powell · « **Reply #34 on:** November 29, 2009, 10:38:09 PM »

And now, it's in base color. Not too bad, either.

Matt Colan · « **Reply #35 on:** November 30, 2009, 06:54:26 PM »

Quote from: Randy Powell on November 29, 2009, 10:38:09 PM

And now, it's in base color. Not too bad, either.

Now you got to show us Randy, if it isn't too bad and it is in base color

Randy Powell · « **Reply #36 on:** December 01, 2009, 01:10:24 PM »

Matt,

I'm taping off for the canopy right now. When that's on, I'll take pictures and post them. I just said base color because I couldn't really tell you what color it is. I mixed it myself using the Mark I Eyeball. It's sort of a pearl creamish white color with a slight redish tone. Sort of. Maybe I can come up with one of those names the car companies use in the color charts. Something like Crystal Champagne or Barbados Delight.

Matt Colan · « **Reply #37 on:** December 01, 2009, 03:59:42 PM »

Quote from: Randy Powell on December 01, 2009, 01:10:24 PM

Matt,

I'm taping off for the canopy right now. When that's on, I'll take pictures and post them. I just said base color because I couldn't really tell you what color it is. I mixed it myself using the Mark I Eyeball. It's sort of a pearl creamish white color with a slight redish tone. Sort of. Maybe I can come up with one of those names the car companies use in the color charts. Something like Crystal Champagne or Barbados Delight.

Crystal Champagne sounds like something a car company would use. I'm not as creative as that when coming up with the name of a color.

Edit: How about Chianti Red or pearl Chardonnay (correct spelling)?

Mark Scarborough · « **Reply #38 on:** December 01, 2009, 04:22:07 PM »

Randy,
heres a color name for you,,

" tantalizing Taupe"

Randy Powell · « **Reply #39 on:** December 01, 2009, 05:25:18 PM »

Matt,

Yea, that was the inference. The names of car colors crack me up.

Mark,

It's not that dark. I imagine in pictures, it just looks like sort of a very off white. But it's really sort of the color of my wife's car. Suzuki Pearl Sunburst. Sigh...

Shultzie · « **Reply #40 on:** December 02, 2009, 09:07:34 AM »

Hummm?
How bout' INVISIBLE IN FLIGHT DEAD-DAGO-RED?

Matt Colan · « **Reply #41 on:** December 02, 2009, 02:15:07 PM »

Grandpa mixed up this one paint color that he calls "silver-leaf green" He says the old cars had that name for a paint color. The color actually does match what the name says unlike "Spruce Mica" the color of our Camry which is actually black with a green metallic in it.

And Grandpa's silver-leaf green is going on the Cobra when I get to painting it.

Randy Powell · « **Reply #42 on:** December 03, 2009, 01:42:06 PM »

I'll post pics when I can get back to the plane. Work has been busy (understatement of the century) so no toy planes for a bit. Hopefully, things will cool down today and I can get to it tonight.

Oh, I did find an auto color that is a dead match for what I mixed up. Called Athabasca Pearl White. Used on mid 80s Alfa Romeros. Sort of a very subtly red tinted pearl white. Looks pretty dark white to me. Cool color. Be interesting to see what happens when I shoot on my planned trim colors.

Randy Powell · « **Reply #43 on:** December 04, 2009, 09:01:20 AM »

I got the canopy taped and painted last night (as I shivered. I love working in 37 degrees and 85% humidity). Came out OK. I tried something I've never done before. It's shaded from one color to the next. I shot on the base color then put in the second color and sort of shaded it around the perimeter inward. I didn't get it as even as I would have like (hard to hold the airbrush when your teeth are chattering), but overall, it looks pretty good. I left the mask on because I want to look again today to see if I want to go back with another shot with the second color. Thought I'd wait till it dried so I could spin the plane around to look at it.

I'll post the pics later after I make the decision on further messing with it and pull tape.

Howard Rush · « **Reply #44 on:** December 04, 2009, 12:52:38 PM »

Quote from: Randy Powell on December 04, 2009, 09:01:20 AM

I tried something I've never done before.

Randy, you should have a macro on your computer to write this sentence. It would be a real time saver.

We are itching to see pictures. Your planes are the coolest.

Randy Powell · « **Reply #45 on:** December 04, 2009, 03:06:15 PM »

Howard,

What, you have a camera over my desk. In this instance, it isn't some new, whiz-bang paint or something, just a painting technique I've seen done, but never tried. Next I'm going to try doing a sun-sparkle on the canopy. I've been practicing on a painted fuel can and am almost confident enough to try it. Maybe.

But the plane has no Rhomboids .... yet. Might get trapezoids.

Shultzie · « **Reply #46 on:** December 04, 2009, 11:11:53 PM »

A "sparkle" on the canopy sounds great.....(here is a photo copy from an old book of mine.
however this I am sure isn't any help...due to this artist used water base paints that are easily removable if your airbrush "sputs-n-spits" nerd-olddo's. (Wuzzies' way out to skin a canopy cat huh?

(Personally that info in that book has little info in painting stunt models canopies...these new exotic paint fomulas...Hummm?

RANDY! DON'T TRY THIS WITH YOUR NEW CANOPY....(personally this page in the

book sparkle looks waaaaaaaaaaaay too funny-funkie-junkie

at least the artist has some amazing gift in jazzin' shiney chrome objects, huh?

Randy Powell · « **Reply #47 on:** December 05, 2009, 12:31:32 PM »

Shultzie,

I doubt I'll get the guts up to try it without a lot more practice on stuff that doesn't matter. I may give a try on the underside to see how it comes out. I'm really just learning how to do airbrushing. Maybe I'll bring it over and have you do it and watch.

Shultzie · « **Reply #48 on:** December 05, 2009, 01:38:11 PM »

Quote from: Randy Powell on December 05, 2009, 12:31:32 PM

Shultzie,

I doubt I'll get the guts up to try it without a lot more practice on stuff that doesn't matter. I may give a try on the underside to see how it comes out. I'm really just learning how to do airbrushing. Maybe I'll bring it over and have you do it and watch.

Like any art or music project...when the human facta'is-figgerd' in...

"ONE IS TRULY ONLY AS GOOD AS THEIR LAST GIG!"

here is an interesting link: if it flies?

www.innate.com/Paint/DIY/hyberflare.htm

Randy Powell · « **Reply #49 on:** December 05, 2009, 03:47:34 PM »

Well, here's a picture. unfortunately, I'm going to have to go back and reshoot part of it. Should have shot clear over the whole thing before putting masking tape down on it. I pulled up some of the black on one side so I'll have to remask and reshoot that area. Sigh.... Not a big deal but frustrating.