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Author Topic: Lacquer is lacquer is lacquer.....  (Read 1510 times)

Online Clint Ormosen

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Lacquer is lacquer is lacquer.....
« on: March 07, 2009, 12:02:55 PM »
I went and picked up the Omni clear from the auto paint store. While I was there I got to talking to the counter guy about my project. His immediate advice about spraying this product over dope was "don't do it!" He said the urethane will separate from the lacquer in about a years time, he's seen it happen over and over on cars.
So what makes our dope lacquer different from auto lacquer that we can get away with this "incompatibility" problem? Or are we tempting fate? I have not seen any paint separation on airplanes with the urethane topcoat.
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Lacquer is lacquer is lacquer.....
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2009, 12:21:42 PM »
Well, for one thing, Laquer on cars is ACRYLIC laquer,, it is a different base carrier than Butyrate Dope. Both laquers, but completely different chemistry. ( One of the reasons I harp about using the thinner designed for your paint, not some other stuff) The other thing is, consider the guy behind the counter, if he sees the delamination 5 or 10% of the time, he is NOT going to want to reccomend it because of his reputation. The biggest factor i think is that our creations dont spend 24/7 in the sun AND probably more important, on a car the solvents have nowhere to go except into the urethane clear. Whereas on our planes, the solvents can go AWAY from the urethane through the covering and wood to escape. Keep in mind, laquer NEVER EVER dries completely, it is always out gassing solvents so when you top coat it with Urethane those solvents have to escape somewhere. On a car, they cant go Down, theres metal there, so they come out of the laquer and break down the mechanical bonce between the laquer and clear causing delamination
Hope this helps...
Still , do I think its a good idea,, in the purest sense, simple answer, NOPE. will it work,, most times yes assuming you allow the laquer enough time to truly dry
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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Lacquer is lacquer is lacquer.....
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2009, 01:42:52 PM »
Mark is right on here. While most of the outgassing of lacquer happens in the first few days, depending on temp and humidity, it really never stops. It's one of the reason while you see these 25 year old planes pulled from someone's attic that have all the silkspan cracked and peeling. Enough moisture has escaped to cause the cracking. And Mark is also right that the paint guy is commenting from his experience with lacquer painted on metal. Painted on wood and paper it's a different deal. If you don't think that there is a chemical bond between the dope with urethane overcoat, try spraying the dope OVER the urethane sometime and watch the crinkles come up.  :)
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Offline Patrick Rowan

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Re: Lacquer is lacquer is lacquer.....
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2009, 01:45:06 PM »
Clint,

The first plane I used Dupont Nason 2 part auto clear on was in 2003. It still looks good. (No separation)

Good enough to hang in my local Hobby Shop today.

The only plane I had any problems with was because I only gave it 3 days to gas off before clearing. (Bodak dope under clear)
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Online Clint Ormosen

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Re: Lacquer is lacquer is lacquer.....
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2009, 02:10:47 PM »
Perfect explanation, Mark. I thought that something must be different to allow the urethane use. I'm giving the Playboy a few more days to gas off then I'm going for the gusto. Blasting on the urethane. Wish me luck.

Oh, and this is the last time I use a metallic base coat. It's just too transparent. While sitting in the sun, you can look right through the finish down to the primer streaks. LAME! A coat of gold and two coats of met. green and it still didn't hide everything. I actually had to go back over some of the green with the airbrush to darken it up.
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Lacquer is lacquer is lacquer.....
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2009, 02:19:06 PM »
thanks CLint, and good luck with the clear. One thing you find in auto repair is a sealer coat on EVERYTHING. makes it one color under your color coats. Next time spray a light cover coat of white before you spray color. Or even a light grey helps.
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Online Clint Ormosen

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Re: Lacquer is lacquer is lacquer.....
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2009, 02:29:52 PM »
thanks CLint, and good luck with the clear. One thing you find in auto repair is a sealer coat on EVERYTHING. makes it one color under your color coats. Next time spray a light cover coat of white before you spray color. Or even a light grey helps.

Yup! Shoulda gave it the white before the gold. Live and learn, I guess. This one could have been so much better.
-Clint-

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Offline Allan Perret

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Re: Lacquer is lacquer is lacquer.....
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2009, 05:26:06 PM »

Still , do I think its a good idea,, in the purest sense, simple answer, NOPE. will it work,, most times yes assuming you allow the laquer enough time to truly dry
So generally speaking, whats is "enought" time for a dope color coat to dry before spraying an auto clear coat.
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Offline EddyR

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Re: Lacquer is lacquer is lacquer.....
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2009, 07:04:15 PM »
My 44 year old Jet style stunt plane finished in Randolph  has no cracking in the silkspan. My 9 month old Tempest with lacquer primer on nitrate clear had cracks at every cap strip. Found it two days ago. Very much the same problem Tom Niebuhr had. I am going to baby it and see if it will get through this year.It has a clear Lacquer top coat but it is still flexable. The primer is like a piece of glass,brittle.
Ed
Locust NC 40 miles from the Huntersville field

Offline Matt Colan

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Re: Lacquer is lacquer is lacquer.....
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2009, 07:14:16 PM »
When my grandfather built one of his Mustangs, he used a different type of clear on it, I think it may have been a polyurethane clear coat over Brodak dope.  The paint didn't adher to it at all.  Guerry Buyers asked him if he spilt coffee on it, because it looked exactly like a coffee stain.  Now he is refinishing it but the way it looks now, it looks like he is repairing it.

What is the difference between polyurethane and urethane?

Matt Colan

Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Lacquer is lacquer is lacquer.....
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2009, 08:04:23 PM »
>>My 44 year old Jet style stunt plane finished in Randolph  has no cracking in the silkspan.<<

Ed, probably wasn't sitting in a 100 degree attic for the last 44 years.   ;D

client,

Can't wait to see pictures of the finished product. Wish I was going to be a VSC this year.
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