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Author Topic: Clear dope blotching  (Read 1645 times)

Offline Allan Perret

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Clear dope blotching
« on: September 09, 2010, 10:10:15 AM »
Any body ever seen this ?  Blotching, dont know what else to call it.  The random white spots.  To me it kind of looks like the blushing you get when spraying in humid conditions, but this is happening while apply covering with a brush.  I am using Randolph Nitrate.  Three coats thinned 50/50 on the raw balsa, no spots.  Apply damped silkspan and then brushed thru the span with 70/30 thinned dope.  And thats what you see  after it dried.   Same method use on the wing, only the covering is Polyspan which is applied dry.  About the same amount of blotches.   I am using an different brand of lacquer thinner, but I used the same stuff couple of weeks ago while spraying some clear butyrate on another project, only minimal blushing which is normal for my shop conditions.  I didnt bother with retarder because it was not the final clear coats, just a seal coat between primer and color coat.   It would not really be an issue at this stage in the finishing process, except I was wanting to do a transparent finish.  I am gotta think these blotches will show thru.  They only happen on the solid balsa sections, not over the open bays.      
« Last Edit: September 09, 2010, 01:18:50 PM by Allan Perret »
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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Clear dope blotching
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2010, 11:28:20 AM »
Yep. I'm sure others will post too, but this looks like classic blushing. It's water trapped in the paint. Happens when either it's humid when you paint or can also happen if it's hot and the dope surfaces dries before all the moisture can escape. Notice it doesn't happen over open bays.

Easiest fix is to shoot some thinner on the areas with a spray gun. This softens the paint and allows the moisture to escape. There are other methods that will probably get posted, too.
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Offline Allan Perret

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Re: Clear dope blotching
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2010, 01:24:09 PM »
Yep. I'm sure others will post too, but this looks like classic blushing. It's water trapped in the paint. Happens when either it's humid when you paint or can also happen if it's hot and the dope surfaces dries before all the moisture can escape. Notice it doesn't happen over open bays.

Easiest fix is to shoot some thinner on the areas with a spray gun. This softens the paint and allows the moisture to escape. There are other methods that will probably get posted, too.

It was a humid day when I did this, probably 90~95%, but I dont usually wait for lower humidity for brushing, like I try to do for spraying.
But I was surprised that it was just as bad on the wing which was covered with dry Polyspan vs the dampened silkspan on the fuse..
Allan Perret
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Offline Allan Perret

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Re: Clear dope blotching
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2010, 01:26:00 PM »
I always think of balsa as a glorified sponge. It seems only very old balsa stock is truly "dry".  I have this happen all the time and have just accepted it and it does go away as more dope is applied.  A taq (5%) of retarder in the clear helps also. H^^
I did have retarder available, but never used it before when brushing.
Allan Perret
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Offline Neville Legg

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Re: Clear dope blotching
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2010, 02:27:21 PM »
Randy, I've had blushing occur on open bays, especially on my rubber powered models using jap tissue! I put it down to using cheap thinners.
Since I got a mortgage for a gallon of high quality thinner ;D I haven't had it happen!

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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Clear dope blotching
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2010, 04:20:48 PM »
Neville,

I often at least begin finishes in high humidity conditions. It's not uncommon for it to be 80-90% humidity in the shop during the rainy season (let's see, around here that's anytime but August and sometimes part of August). Never had problems with blush over open bays. Most common where covering overlaps since there is additional water there. I'm a bit surprised that Allan got blushing over Polyspan since it's applied dry. Balsa must have picked up some moisture in the humid conditions. As I noted, the only way to get rid of it is to allow the water to get out. This will happen eventually in any case as the dope gasses off, but it may take awhile. Applying thinner and/or retarder is usually the best way. Also, if you can de-humidify the room you are doing this in then apply thinner, it helps.
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Clear dope blotching
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2010, 05:54:58 PM »
My 13 stunter was a milky pink after about 10 coats of clear.  One night I wanted another coat of clear.  It was in the 50's temp wise, don'tknow the humidity, but about froze my you know what off brushing another coat of clear.  By the time I got every thing cleaned up the plane was moved back into the basement.  No more milky look to it.  I am having that problem now with the 1/2A Snapper.  Getting areas of white in the clear.  This is Brodak clear with Brodak thinner.   H^^
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Offline Neville Legg

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Re: Clear dope blotching
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2010, 10:28:15 PM »
Doc, on really cold frosty days, the air can be very dry, to the point where I've had cyno that won't stick until I've moistened one side of the joint!

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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Clear dope blotching
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2010, 10:41:58 PM »
When I lived in Idaho (humidity usually below 10%), I shot clear coats when it was near freezing without a problem. Needed a lot of thinner to flow out at that temp, but no blushing or other fun stuff.
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Offline Allan Perret

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Re: Clear dope blotching
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2010, 04:35:35 PM »
Well I have to disagree with the expert finishers that thought what I had was blushing, or trapped water vapor.    The reason I called it blotching was because it just didnt look like blushing.  Blushing has no grain or texture to it, just makes a painted surface look dull or hazy that would otherwise have a gloss.   I could tell that this was something that formed and was trapped on the surface of the balse and under the covering.  I could see it had a texture.    What I did today was take a mixture of 10oz straight thinner and 1oz retarder.  I wet the surface (pretty much flooded it) and watched and as soon as it started to dry (about 15 sec) I wet it again.  Repeated 3 times and at about the 45 sec point I could see the blotches start to melt away, or dissolve back into there original clear state.  I did the wing first, got rid of about 95% of the blotch.  Then I did the fuse.  Because it was flat I was able to flood it more so and kept it wet for almost 1.5 minute.  Completely cleared the blotches.  Then I noticed that there was some of the white stuff on the edges of the fuse where there was no covering, nothing to keep water vapor trapped.  If it was water it would have evaporated, it had been there almost 2 days now.  So I could now check it closer.  It was a powderey substance, and a little on the gummy side.  I could scrape it off with a hobby knife, or sand it off,  now that I had access to it.  One thing for sure, it was not water vapor, you can see that in the pictures..
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Offline Neville Legg

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Re: Clear dope blotching
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2010, 01:08:09 AM »
That looks like possibly some reaction with the glue you used on the joint? ???

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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Clear dope blotching
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2010, 10:20:17 PM »
Or some contaminate in the dope or thinner. Hmmm...

Congratulations, you found another finishing problem.   ;D
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Offline Allan Perret

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Re: Clear dope blotching
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2010, 10:14:41 AM »
Neville:    I dont think its related to the glue.  That edge had been sanded after laminating and there was a minimal glue line that was exposed.
Randy:    Not necessarily a contaminate, but I do think is was some component in either the dope or thinner that precipated out as the drying thinner cooled down the surface.  And I also think it was aggravated by the temp and humidity conditions at the time,  because I think I have seen this before to a much lesser extent when conditions were better.  I am mixing Randolph dope with a different brand thinner, but I feel like it is a quality thinner, and I have used it with Sig dope in a spraying application with no adverse affects.   Just glad I was able to "melt" it away with the thinner / retarder solution.
Allan Perret
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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Clear dope blotching
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2010, 11:02:05 AM »
Not to be a broken record, but it's advisable to use the recommended brand of thinner with dope. They are formulated to work together and sometimes other thinners have different components. It's not a quality issues so much as a compatibility issues. I've used Certified thinner with Randolph's and it came out OK, but I've also used Randolph's thinner with Certified dope and had some problems. Minor, but there. I've also used DuPont 3608 with Randolph's dope and had no problems, but with Certified, had some major adhesion problems. It's just better to use the recommended thinner with paint since you KNOW they will work together. It's one less thing to worry about.
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