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Author Topic: A way to find flaws before the finish starts  (Read 2001 times)

Offline Matt Colan

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A way to find flaws before the finish starts
« on: March 02, 2009, 04:53:03 PM »
Hi

I am building an Oriental Plus, and since this plane will be judged at the Nats, I want it to look great.  My question is, how do you find flaws in the wood before applying silkspan?  I'm not talking about the big gashes and dents that seem to happen in every plane I build but get filled, but the small ones that are hard to find.  If not, then I know many of those flaws that really can't be seen before primer will show up eventually.

Thanks  H^^

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Offline RC Storick

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Re: A way to find flaws before the finish starts
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2009, 06:11:30 PM »
Its called candling, Use a 100 watt bulb to view the surface at a angle.
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Offline Matt Colan

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Re: A way to find flaws before the finish starts
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2009, 06:28:48 PM »
I do sand, but I think I could look at the plane in the light more often.  At first, it sounded like a smart question, but now after I thought about it, it sounds like a dumb question  HB~>

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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: A way to find flaws before the finish starts
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2009, 07:30:22 PM »
Matt, there is no such thing as a dumb question.  As Robert stated it is called candling.  Take a bright light and look at the surfaces at an angle.  You will be surprised how much stuff will show up.  DOC Holliday
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Offline Randy Ryan

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Re: A way to find flaws before the finish starts
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2009, 05:44:16 PM »
Matt,

Here's a trick for you. When you have a model ready to cover but before the dope. Give it a "bath", wipe it down with a wet (not dripping) cloth. This will raise all the little dents and places you pressed too hard when you sanded it. Let it dry and give it a once over with 400 grit paper in your hand, no block, just before you start doping. Another thing I do when I get to the finalization point is to spread an old wool blanket on my bench and move all the hard items that can poke to wingtips and such. I do all my fine finish sanding on that old blanket, but I still "bathe" the model prior to dope.

Candling realy works but it takes some practice to get good at it, you have to inspect every square inch. You'll find that the big open areas are usually pretty good. Its the areas near edges where we tend to under-sand trying not to cut too deep. Candling works better for primed surfaces but will work on wood as well, I just never got into it at that point.

Very careful selection of the balsa and twice as much care as you built really minimize those little dents, but even your fingernails and edges of sandpaper and sanding blocks can cause them.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2009, 09:09:00 PM by Randy Ryan »
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Offline Matt Colan

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Re: A way to find flaws before the finish starts
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2009, 07:20:48 PM »
Matt,

Here's a trick for you. When you have a model ready to cover but before the dope. Give it a "bath", wipe it down with a wet (not dripping) cloth. This will raise all the little dents and places you pressed too hard when you sanded it. Let it dry and give it a once over with 400 grit paper in your hand, no block, just before you start doping. Another thing I do when I get to the finalization point is to spread an old wool blanket on my bench and move all the hard items that can poke to wingtips and such. I do all my fine finish sanding on that old blanket, but I still "bathe" the model prior to dope.

Candling realy works but it takes some practice to get good at it, you have to inspect every square inch. YOu'll find that the big open areas are usually pretty good. Its the areas near edges where we tend to under-sand trying not to cut too deed. Candling works better for primed surfaces but will work on wood as well, I just never got into it at that point.

Very careful selection of the balsa and twice as much care as you built really minimize those little dents, but even your fingernails and edges of sandpaper and sanding blocks can cause them.

Thanks for the tip Randy.  That is the exact answer I was looking for.  H^^  :)

Matt Colan

Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: A way to find flaws before the finish starts
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2009, 11:56:36 PM »
I need to add my two cents worth here Matt.
I NEVER sand anything flat without some form of block. It is way to easy to cut finger grooves in it. Even using a foam sanding pad is better than your fingers EXCEPT over open bays .
Otherwise, all good advice.
There is also another way to judge how flat and perfect your surface is. i use two products, I use them on my restoration projets, stuff like 55 Thunderbirds, 60s camaros,, and other hot rod projects. One is a spray can that is called Guide coat. It is a very thin black spray paint that you lightly dust (spray) on the surface, then when you sand, the low spots be they small or large, will stay black as you sand the high spots down. MUCH more visual than candling. The other product works the same way, but its a powdered guide coat that you put on. Its like powdered chalk that you dust on the surface and as you sand, same thing, it stays in the low spots and sands away from the high spots. The spray is about 6 $ a can and should be enough to do several planes, it goes on light ( shake it THOUROUGHLY) the powder is a bit more expensive,, like 20$ for a container that includes an applicator, it will probably be enough to do everyplane you ever build even if you build like Jack Sheaks! ( or Randy powell,,, ) You can get the same effect if you want to try it without the investment, find some black charcoal, like artist charcoal, pick a hard grade,and sand it on a peice of 320 or 220 sandpaper, then using something like a small piece of foam rubber, or sponge, apply the dust on the surface , rub it around so that the whole surface has at least a grey color, then start sanding. I would advise against this if you plan on a transparant finish, but other than that,  a light wiping with a tack rag, or a can of compressed air will get rid of any loose powder before you start doping.
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Offline Randy Ryan

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Re: A way to find flaws before the finish starts
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2009, 07:03:50 AM »
I need to add my two cents worth here Matt.
I NEVER sand anything flat without some form of block. It is way to easy to cut finger grooves in it. Even using a foam sanding pad is better than your fingers EXCEPT over open bays .
Otherwise, all good advice.
There is also another way to judge how flat and perfect your surface is. i use two products, I use them on my restoration projets, stuff like 55 Thunderbirds, 60s camaros,, and other hot rod projects. One is a spray can that is called Guide coat. It is a very thin black spray paint that you lightly dust (spray) on the surface, then when you sand, the low spots be they small or large, will stay black as you sand the high spots down. MUCH more visual than candling. The other product works the same way, but its a powdered guide coat that you put on. Its like powdered chalk that you dust on the surface and as you sand, same thing, it stays in the low spots and sands away from the high spots. The spray is about 6 $ a can and should be enough to do several planes, it goes on light ( shake it THOUROUGHLY) the powder is a bit more expensive,, like 20$ for a container that includes an applicator, it will probably be enough to do everyplane you ever build even if you build like Jack Sheaks! ( or Randy powell,,, ) You can get the same effect if you want to try it without the investment, find some black charcoal, like artist charcoal, pick a hard grade,and sand it on a peice of 320 or 220 sandpaper, then using something like a small piece of foam rubber, or sponge, apply the dust on the surface , rub it around so that the whole surface has at least a grey color, then start sanding. I would advise against this if you plan on a transparant finish, but other than that,  a light wiping with a tack rag, or a can of compressed air will get rid of any loose powder before you start doping.

Perhaps I should have elaborated a bit. After bathing, the sanding is really no more the a wipe down, there will be very little material removed. In most cases a single swipe is all that is required. Mark is not incorrect in his advise, but you alone can determine what works best for you. For myself, sanding the raised grain off is a very minor operation, adding even a foam pad effects my "feel" and I am more prone to simply put more dents in the soft balsa. I cut my sandpaper into ovals about 1 1/2 x3 and curl it over the edge of the bench abrasive side out, this curls the edges away from the surface and helps you avoid cutting and gouging with the edges of the paper. When I sand the raised grain off I simply hold one end of the paper oval  between my thumb and forefinger with the length of the oval going across my fingers. I place the paper on the surface and lightly drag the paper across the surfce. You should feel your fingers in contact with the surface, but no pressing. You will find that with a single swipe, the raised grain will be gone, and the surface ready for dope. By the way, I use the same technique sanding between coats of dope. Its very effective and very fast.
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: A way to find flaws before the finish starts
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2009, 08:41:13 AM »
Good description Randy,, and for what you describe, I have no issue. I would reccomend caution with persons having less experience and feel, but still for what you are describing , a light scuff, I see no harm.
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Offline Bob Reeves

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Re: A way to find flaws before the finish starts
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2009, 09:29:07 AM »
Not to change the subject but speaking of sanding... I've always had a problem knowing when to quit sanding, raising fuzz on polyspan and sanding through silkspan wasn't an unusual occurrence.. On my latest I put a little blue dope in the 4th clear coat and sprayed it on. This gave the whole airplane a blue tint that was easy to see. I then put a little gray in the filler and covered up the blue.. I then knew if I could see blue it was time to quit sanding.. This sure made a big difference in the amount of work I had to do fixing sand throughs. If I could see blue and it still wasn't smooth then it needed more filler...

Offline Allan Perret

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Re: A way to find flaws before the finish starts
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2009, 07:37:37 PM »
One is a spray can that is called Guide coat. It is a very thin black spray paint that you lightly dust (spray) on the surface, then when you sand, the low spots be they small or large, will stay black as you sand the high spots down. MUCH more visual than candling.

What kind of paint is this, lacquer, enamel, water based ?? 
I guess it's available at the body shops ?
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: A way to find flaws before the finish starts
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2009, 08:29:21 PM »
its none of the above,,, lol
basically its more like dye in a spray can, it has virtually no body whatsoever, , sands clean without gumming the paper and affecting your sanding.
here try this link for black guide coat

http://www.sjdiscounttools.com/sem38203.html

white guide coat
http://www.sjdiscounttools.com/sem38303.html

dont know this one, but found it?can make no judgement about its quality
http://www.sjdiscounttools.com/upl-up2043.html

here is one source for the 3M dry guide coat
http://autobodystore.net/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=3M5861&Category_Code=FM

hope this helps? These products are INDESPNESABLE for doing quality work,, at least on cars. I use them but lots of other modelers don't.

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Offline Pinecone

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Re: A way to find flaws before the finish starts
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2009, 06:50:50 AM »
I have done the same thing by spraying a very light coat of any compatible black paint from a distance.  You want just a mist of paint.

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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: A way to find flaws before the finish starts
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2009, 07:18:34 PM »
Terrry,
this is what we used to do also,, and we just lived with the fact that it clogged up the sandpaper, and caused some minor problems with incompatable finishes. The other annoyance was the fact that the random spray would take an hour to dry enough to sand. This product is basically a powder in solvent so that it dries almost instantly and does not clog sand paper. In short, as cheap as this purpose made product is,, as cheap as any other spray paint,, it just doesnt make sense to use anything else?
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Offline jim gilmore

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Re: A way to find flaws before the finish starts
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2009, 05:24:59 PM »
Sound like what we did with prussian blue when making shims and removing high spots.

Offline Randy Powell

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Re: A way to find flaws before the finish starts
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2009, 11:21:34 AM »
Mark,

I've used this too, only mine is blue for some reason. It's really just chalk powder. Sure works well.
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Offline Pinecone

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Re: A way to find flaws before the finish starts
« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2009, 07:41:04 PM »
Terrry,
this is what we used to do also,, and we just lived with the fact that it clogged up the sandpaper, and caused some minor problems with incompatable finishes. The other annoyance was the fact that the random spray would take an hour to dry enough to sand. This product is basically a powder in solvent so that it dries almost instantly and does not clog sand paper. In short, as cheap as this purpose made product is,, as cheap as any other spray paint,, it just doesnt make sense to use anything else?

Last time, I used a black primer. No more clogging. :)

And I watched some body work pros, and they spray a bit more than I had been doing.  Not to the point of full coat, but more than a mist.

But the powder stuff does sound nice.
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: A way to find flaws before the finish starts
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2009, 05:03:15 PM »
This is a great thread.  Thanks, guys.
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