World Championships and AMA Nats for 2024?

[Scott Richlen]

The Walker Cup aspiration - awarded to the best pilot flying the best plane through the best pattern.

[M Spencer]

There are 4 paved circles and at least 6 grass circles open for use when the competitions are done for the day. No grass circle ever has more than 3 people practicing at any time and they're kept in wonderful condition.

So this isnt like Poland then .        where you bring your own mower . 

[realSteveSmith]

How many Yatsenko airplanes competed in the Nats this year?  I saw pictures of at least one so it seems like the BOM rules have already been 'bent', right?

I'm new to all this (obviously)...how do people 'prove' that they are truly the BOM?

[SteveMoon]

I was also a judge at this year’s Nats and did appearance judging with my son Jake.
Everything he said is spot on. I have also competed in or judged at 28 consecutive
Nationals. Relaxing the rules, or bending the rules, or changing the rules to accomodate
non-BOM planes is an insult to me and everyone else who has strived to compete at the
level required to compete at our Nationals.

I would also be concerned about fatigue for the judges. I know I was whipped this year
after judging a very close contest. I am sure that several judges would be working multiple
events. I don’t believe this would be in their best interest. I just don’t see the necessity
of a World Cup event in addition to the Nats and W Champs.

Steve

[bill bischoff]

To continue this off-topic discussion, I understand that #322 Aerobatics still has BOM, and #323-326 Skill Class Aerobatics permit non-BOM with loss of appearance points. If BOM is such an integral part of the event, why does it seem like the Nats is the only contest to have the #322 open age class event instead of #326 Expert Aerobatics? If it's OK for non-BOM models to compete in Expert in contests all over the country, why is it not the Nats? Isn't loss of appearance points enough of a penalty?

[Brett Buck]

To continue this off-topic discussion, I understand that #322 Aerobatics still has BOM, and #323-326 Skill Class Aerobatics permit non-BOM with loss of appearance points. If BOM is such an integral part of the event, why does it seem like the Nats is the only contest to have the #322 open age class event instead of #326 Expert Aerobatics? If it's OK for non-BOM models to compete in Expert in contests all over the country, why is it not the Nats? Isn't loss of appearance points enough of a penalty?

    Because we want to maintain the (very high) standards for a National Champion. Everyone else did it, why shouldn't the 2024 champion do it, too?  I note that the JSO Championship as it currently stands long predates the existence of Skill Class Aerobatics. On a personal basis, including appearance points has usually been to my detriment, because I build in my bedroom and have to weasel around my friend's garages to paint, which has led to some difficult results.  I know what to do about it, that is on *me*, not someone else's issue to accommodate.

   I also note that we have already have had both Advanced Skill Class and Expert Skill Class as official events at the NATs, Advanced being somewhat successful and Expert was "a failed experiment" that ultimately seems to have *reduced* participation. Expert would only have succeeded if we had also eliminated Open, which has consistently been one of the more successful and well-attended individual events at the NATs.

    Brett

     

[Derek Barry]

Jake Moon for PAMPA president!

Derek

[Doug Moon]

Jake Moon for PAMPA president!

Derek

Right on!! 

[Matt Colan]

Jake is 100% spot on!!

[Scott Richlen]

We really should put this whole "end the BOM" issue to rest.  The PAMPA Planning Committee recently completed its first survey of current PAMPA membership.  Being a first of its kind, of course, there were a few "hiccups".  However, almost 50% of PAMPA membership responded.

To the question "I compete using built planes purchased from others" about 21% of members answered "yes", 79% answered "no".   In answer to another survey question about building, more than 75% of respondees checked the answer "I do have a dedicated shop area", while another 12% checked "I have a shop area I can use, but I don't have a dedicated shop area".  To the question " Do you build your own contest models?" only four members answered "no".  84% answered "I have built more than 5".  And finally, only one person checked the response "I am not a builder."

There is a very small minority that would like to see the end of "BOM" in CLPA.  And they are vocal, and persistant.

However, the vast majority of us are perfectly happy building and greatly enjoy building our own planes for competition.  And we want that investment to count in the final tally.  We should not allow ourselves to be badgered into a situation that we definitely do not want.

[Dave_Trible]

How many Yatsenko airplanes competed in the Nats this year?  I saw pictures of at least one so it seems like the BOM rules have already been 'bent', right?

I'm new to all this (obviously)...how do people 'prove' that they are truly the BOM?

No rules bent.  There was only one Yatsenko design airplane flown in OPEN-and that one has been verified to have been sufficiently built by the pilot, using his own molds.  I believe there is a series of build photos to attest to that.   If any were flown in Advanced that would be acceptable since there is no BOM (but loss of appearance points) in that event.
I think we have mostly overcome the issue of BOM for our Nats.  Those who are now questioning it are from other countries who want to fly their purchased airplanes here in our Nats.  That's a non-starter.

[Doug Moon]

To add to what Jake said, and there isnt much we can add to his most excellent post. If the BOM is waived or relaxed then we are no longer flying Event 322 JSO. Event 322 JSO is THE event that crowns the US CLPA National Champion. Event 322 follows the BOM rule. It really is that simple.

[Tom Luciano]

We really should put this whole "end the BOM" issue to rest.  The PAMPA Planning Committee recently completed its first survey of current PAMPA membership.  Being a first of its kind, of course, there were a few "hiccups".  However, almost 50% of PAMPA membership responded.

To the question "I compete using built planes purchased from others" about 21% of members answered "yes", 79% answered "no".   In answer to another survey question about building, more than 75% of respondees checked the answer "I do have a dedicated shop area", while another 12% checked "I have a shop area I can use, but I don't have a dedicated shop area".  To the question " Do you build your own contest models?" only four members answered "no".  84% answered "I have built more than 5".  And finally, only one person checked the response "I am not a builder."

There is a very small minority that would like to see the end of "BOM" in CLPA.  And they are vocal, and persistant.

However, the vast majority of us are perfectly happy building and greatly enjoy building our own planes for competition.  And we want that investment to count in the final tally.  We should not allow ourselves to be badgered into a situation that we definitely do not want.

Well said!

[Ken Culbertson]

Tom, how many of the members got the survey?  I certainly didn't.
Ken

[realSteveSmith]

Tom, how many of the members got the survey?  I certainly didn't.
Ken

Ken, see if this thread doesn't jog your memory. 

https://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/survey-monkey/msg659079/#msg659079

[Ken Culbertson]

Ken, see if this thread doesn't jog your memory. 

https://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/survey-monkey/msg659079/#msg659079

Memory jogged.  Still don't remember what was on it but I guess I answered it.  

ken

[Scott Richlen]

Still don't remember what was on it but I guess I answered it.

Ken: You probably have the same exercise program as me: i go up the stairs to get something or do something, but when I get there I either don't recall why I came upstairs or I notice something that needs doing so I do it.  I then go down the stairs and about the time I hit the bottom step I recall why I went up the stairs in the first place!  And then lather, rinse, repeat!   

You should also have gotten an email from Mark Weiss just recently summarizing the survey results.  If you didn't, PM me to let me know.  One of the things we would like to do is improve PAMPA communications and one of those communications is from the PAMPA President to all members.

[M Spencer]

So they can fly the Noddy Planes in Advanced , if they can stand the flack .

Advanced that would be acceptable since there is no BOM (but loss of appearance points) in that event.

Thanks Dave , Should organise a Tug of War , best of three ; after advanced to settle animosities . R T F team Vs  B O M team . Loosers shout dinner to the winners . A International Event . To lighten it up a bit .

 

[Jim Benzinger]

To all who are still arguing that a World Cup preceding a World Champs is a warm up, I disagree.

Essentially, what no one has specifically stated is this: The World Cup predetermines who has a chance at winning the World Champs. If you fly in the World Cup, you might win. If you choose not to, for whatever reason, you have no chance of placing.

1. Often the World Cup entries are limited. If you don't enter right away, you won't get in.
2. Time commitment, some of us still have jobs and work and are unable to get that much time off work.
3. The judges will know the World Cup results, and WILL BE INFLUENCED by the results. There is no getting around this. Even if you try to not consciously be influenced, it will happen.

So, in summary, a World Cup essentially pre-determines who will win or place at the World Champs. This goes against the US model where we try very hard to have a fair contest.

[Howard Rush]

To all who are still arguing that a World Cup preceding a World Champs is a warm up, I disagree.

Essentially, what no one has specifically stated is this: The World Cup predetermines who has a chance at winning the World Champs. If you fly in the World Cup, you might win. If you choose not to, for whatever reason, you have no chance of placing.

1. Often the World Cup entries are limited. If you don't enter right away, you won't get in.
2. Time commitment, some of us still have jobs and work and are unable to get that much time off work.
3. The judges will know the World Cup results, and WILL BE INFLUENCED by the results. There is no getting around this. Even if you try to not consciously be influenced, it will happen.

So, in summary, a World Cup essentially pre-determines who will win or place at the World Champs. This goes against the US model where we try very hard to have a fair contest.

I’m sorry you’ve had that experience with flying at the world champs without the preliminary world cup event. I think flying in the world cup benefits our team—maybe not regulars like you and Orestes, but non-Europeans the judges haven’t seen before. I signed up for the preliminary to show the judges, “hey, that guy flies pretty good stunt.”  I defer to your experience, though: I haven’t flown in a world cup contest in weeks.

[Lauri Malila]

To all who are still arguing that a World Cup preceding a World Champs is a warm up, I disagree.

Essentially, what no one has specifically stated is this: The World Cup predetermines who has a chance at winning the World Champs. If you fly in the World Cup, you might win. If you choose not to, for whatever reason, you have no chance of placing.

1. Often the World Cup entries are limited. If you don't enter right away, you won't get in.
2. Time commitment, some of us still have jobs and work and are unable to get that much time off work.
3. The judges will know the World Cup results, and WILL BE INFLUENCED by the results. There is no getting around this. Even if you try to not consciously be influenced, it will happen.
So, in summary, a World Cup essentially pre-determines who will win or place at the World Champs. This goes against the US model where we try very hard to have a fair contest.

True, I've been to many World- and European champs and quite often indeed the same people are on top in both the pre-champs cup and the real champs. I may be wrong, but maybe they just flew better than the others in both contests?
I think you are underestimating the judges. L

[Ted Fancher]

I am so proud of my friends and competitors who are standing up for the BOM to remain a requirement for competing for our Walker Cup!

It wasn't trophies that...some 70 or so years ago...hooked me on flying tricks with small airplanes on wires.  It was seeing two beautiful stunt ships, a semi scale stunter of a second world Air Force fighter (alas, I've forgotten which one) and an equally beautiful original stunt ship built and flown by a gentleman named Bob Emmet who soon became like a part time second Dad as he led me to learn how to not only fly pretty good but also build and finish functional stunt ships well...almost as nice as his.

That exposure and Bob's friendship fueled much of my life from that day on.  Yes, flying (eventually) the  ships pretty well was a great thing but building and finishing them to be beautiful and, more importantly, functional was almost an equally meaningful pleasure.  Craftsmanship and functionality combined was, for many years, all but overwhelmingly satisfied my need for...well...doing something almost as attractive and yet functional as Bob's.

That I was able to take those ships to competitions among others who reacted the same way for the same reasons became an integral part of my existence.  Meeting (and yes competing against) them became an important and meaningful part of my life pretty much second only to my love of family and friends...many of whom, strangely enough...had hand made flyable beauties of their own in the trunks of their cars or back end of their pick-ups!

The building and finishing of those beauties was, to me, a more valuable aspect of their function than was the flying competition itself.  Sure, the few times I won or did well in such competitions was rewarding; but recognizing and admiring the beauty and craftsmanship of these friends efforts was, frankly,  as--if not more--meaningful than winning or losing on a given day.

To suggest that we, as a group, would be equally or even better off if we simply bought our next stunt ship like a pair of shoes that squeaked a tune as we walked would provide equal satisfaction is, frankly, not the same thing for those of us who grew up with the "traditional" demands of the undertaking.  Anybody with a few bucks, a hammer and a nail can buy and hang a beautiful picture somebody else painted on the wall...That's not so with the Walker Cup...nor should it be.

Just my opinion.

Ted

ps: my apologies for the following duplication.  Couldn't figure out how to remove it.

[Ted Fancher]

I am so proud of my friends and competitors who are standing up for the BOM to remain a requirement for competing for our Walker Cup!

It wasn't trophies that...some 70 or so years ago...hooked me on flying tricks with small airplanes on wires.  It was seeing two beautiful stunt ships, a semi scale stunter of a second world Air Force fighter (alas, I've forgotten which one) and an equally beautiful original stunt ship built and flown by a gentleman named Bob Emett who soon became like a part time second Dad as he led me to learn how to not only fly pretty good but also build and finish functional stunt ships well...almost as nice as his.

That exposure and Bob's friendship fueled much of my life from that day on.  Yea, flying (eventually) the  ships pretty well was a great thing but building and finishing them to be beautiful and, more importantly, functional was almost an equally meaningful pleasure.  Craftsmanship and functionality combined was, for many years, all but overwhelmingly satisfied my need for...well...doing something almost as attractive and yet functional as Bob's.

That I was able to take those ships to competitions among others who reacted the same way for the same reasons became an integral part of my existence.  Meeting (and yes competing against) them became an important and meaningful part of my life pretty much second only to my love of family and friends...many of whom, strangely enough...had hand made flyable beauties of their own in the trunks of their cars or back end of their pick-ups!

The building and finishing of those beauties was, to me, a more valuable aspect of their function than was the flying competition itself.  Sure, the few times I won or did well in such competitions was rewarding; but recognizing and admiring the beauty and craftsmanship of these friends efforts was, frankly,  as--if not more--meaningful than winning or losing on a given day.

To suggest that we, as a group, would be equally or even better off if we simply bought our next stunt ship like a pair of shoes that squeaked a tune as we walked would provide equal satisfaction is, frankly, not the same thing for those of us who grew up with the "traditional" demands of the undertaking.  Anybody with a few bucks, a hammer and a nail can buy and hang a beautiful picture somebody else painted on the wall...That's not so with the Walker Cup...nor should it be.

Just my opinion.

Ted

[Scott Richlen]

100% right Ted!!

[Doug Moon]

Years ago back on stuka stunt Ted spoke often about the difference between toys and personally built model airplanes. For a long time I didn't really get it. I though the BOM was not needed and was a supporter of getting rid of it for a while. But as time wore on and I built more and learned more about it the difference became VERY obvious. The light bulb finally came on. The BOM keeps it from becoming and handle waiving contest with toys. It also keeps it fair and grounded.

In every single competition where purchased equipment is involved the one with the most money wins about 95% time, maybe even higher % than that. Removing the BOM will send us right down that path as well. It can't be helped when a major advantage can be purchased. There is always someone who can spend more. When it has to be built by the contestant that's a different story all together. 

The BOM, even the relaxed version we have today, insures that the contestant that wins the US Nats in JSO 322 is the most well rounded flier AND modeler that day. I have had the pleasure of putting my name on the trophy and the same thing surprises ANYONE I happen to tell about it, "and I had to build my own model. See here's a pic." Every single time they are taken aback by it. EVERY TIME! People of all walks of life who don't do what we do still know the value in "doing it yourself" and how difficult it can be.

One more thing. KT and few others back on SS stated if the BOM went away the Walker trophy should be placed in the AMA museum and a new different trophy would be started or not or whatever. I agree...

[dale gleason]

Lately I've been attempting to put into words my feelings about our BOM and just can't print what I want to convey. But, a couple of guys have stated the actual way it is, was, and hopefully will remain.  I'm really happy they did.

dg

[Frank Imbriaco]

 

The building and finishing of those beauties was, to me, a more valuable aspect of their function than was the flying competition itself.  Sure, the few times I won or did well in such competitions was rewarding; but recognizing and admiring the beauty and craftsmanship of these friends efforts was, frankly,  as--if not more--meaningful than winning or losing on a given

You betcha !

[john e. holliday]

I too stand in favor of the BOM for the JSO catagory just for the Walker Cup.  I build for my stisfaction and now fly for the fun.   I am not dedicated like my heros who have done it all, design, build, practice and fly for the win.

The World Cup should be for those too lazy or can not build their own plane.   Now is Jake Moon okld enough to be president of PAMPA?

[Ted Fancher]

Years ago back on stuka stunt Ted spoke often about the difference between toys and personally built model airplanes. For a long time I didn't really get it. I though the BOM was not needed and was a supporter of getting rid of it for a while. But as time wore on and I built more and learned more about it the difference became VERY obvious. The light bulb finally came on. The BOM keeps it from becoming and handle waiving contest with toys. It also keeps it fair and grounded.

In every single competition where purchased equipment is involved the one with the most money wins about 95% time, maybe even higher % than that. Removing the BOM will send us right down that path as well. It can't be helped when a major advantage can be purchased. There is always someone who can spend more. When it has to be built by the contestant that's a different story all together. 

The BOM, even the relaxed version we have today, insures that the contestant that wins the US Nats in JSO 322 is the most well rounded flier AND modeler that day. I have had the pleasure of putting my name on the trophy and the same thing surprises ANYONE I happen to tell about it, "and I had to build my own model. See here's a pic." Every single time they are taken aback by it. EVERY TIME! People of all walks of life who don't do what we do still know the value in "doing it yourself" and how difficult it can be.

One more thing. KT and few others back on SS stated if the BOM went away the Walker trophy should be placed in the AMA museum and a new different trophy would be started or not or whatever. I agree...

Amen Doug.  The distinction between the two "tasks" couldn't be clearer!

[Ken Culbertson]

I too have come full circle on the BOM.  Before my trip into the wilderness, I simply took the BOM for granted.  Most of that was because there weren't any competitive PA ARF's in 1980 but most of it was that I simply liked building and never even considered competing with something I did not build.  I think about 99% of the folks I flew with and competed against felt the same way.

When I came back into the sport the world was full of Arfs that were capable of a decent pattern, but I still wanted to design and build my own.  What I saw at the contests though really bothered me.  Virtually no Juniors and very few beginners. I blamed the BOM rule for that and became an advocate for dropping it.  Then it hit me that eliminating the BOM would kill the sport.   We are supplied by a cottage industry that would disappear without us building our planes.  Alot of folks are coming back to the hobby as well and it is not just to fly, it is to build and fly.  I get as much enjoyment from designing, building and experimenting as I do flying, and I suck at both!

At first I was also disappointed at not being able to host the World Cup.  That opinion also changed.  We could host it then run the Worlds with a bunch of worn out overworked staff?  No.  If they want a warmup, let them build a plane and fly our Nats.

Ken