stunthanger.com
General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: Paul Smith on September 15, 2023, 07:34:41 AM
-
I have heard rumors and schemes for these events next year.
I've heard statements from people who claim to KNOW.
I sent AMA Hq an e mail asking for an answer. I got no replyl
What I don't have is an authoritative answer.
At some point in the near future people need something firm to use for next summer's planning.
-
I am the asst. F2B event director for the 2024 WC's. The FAI has approved it.
Our Nat's will be held prior to the WC's. After the Nat's, the WC's will run.
The exact dates are not in concrete at this time, but should be in the first half of August as of now. Stay tuned for exact dates.
-
I am curious. With our Nats right before worlds is it likely we will get a lot of foreign entries using our Nats as a warmup?
Ken
-
I am curious. With our Nats right before worlds is it likely we will get a lot of foreign entries using our Nats as a warmup?
Ken
Maybe yes maybe no.
We have the BOM. Many of the foreign competitors use bought planes, which are not legal on Open competition.
Time will tell, but there is no give on the BOM.
-
But, can they enter the Advance class? ???
-
But, can they enter the Advance class? ???
AK.
That will depend on their skill level.
I would suggest than anyone crossing the ponds to get here for the WC's are likely not Advanced skill level.
-
AK.
That will depend on their skill level.
I would suggest than anyone crossing the ponds to get here for the WC's are likely not Advanced skill level.
Agreed! Nobody on a world team should be entering Advanced.
I have already received a few messages from competitors in other countries asking if they can fly their RTFs. The answer is NO!
Derek
-
Thanks for the input. I am more concerned about the actual announcements from AMA than the details of specific events.
On the subject of the BOM in stunt, the foreign flyers still have almost eleven months to build a plane if they wish to compete in Rule Book Stunt. I would guess that many of those on national teams actually built their own planes.
-
. I would guess that many of those on national teams actually built their own planes.
[/quote]
You might need to reconsider that.
Yes, there are a few.
-
I can't even guess how many actually would be able or willing to stay that long in Muncie and still keep the focus in WCh. I can just guess that I wouldn't.
But what IF you just let people fly, and then find some Ph. D. of Microsoft Excel to make separate results, for for example:
-All together,
-BOM people,
-No-BOM people,
-Those who wear red pants,
-Those who build their own engines.
In the end, it's about flying with friends.
L
-
Just to clarify. I thought the BOM rule meant you would be awarded, up to, 20 points at appearance judging.
Does it also mean if you did not build the model you cannot compete at all?
Thanks
Craig
-
Just to clarify. I thought the BOM rule meant you would be awarded, up to, 20 points at appearance judging.
Does it also mean if you did not build the model you cannot compete at all?
Thanks
Craig
Correct
-
Anyone CAN enter something they didn't build in the ADVANCED class at the Nats. OPEN class is a bastion (the last one I expect ) of the BOM rule and it is unlikely to change. I had inquired about whether there would be a World Cup event but you can see there is an issue with time compression-not being able to do it all. Running the Nats back to back with a Worlds at the AMA site has become a standard across all event types. It didn't however appear to consider this one issue with regards to Precision Aerobatics-nor did it have to. I hope many from outside our borders come and fly in our Nats as well-you'll just have to leave the ready-to -fly stuff home, bring two different airplanes or just plan to build your own from the start for the trip. I think in most cases I can recall that is what our team members have done all along.
Dave
-
I can't even guess how many actually would be able or willing to stay that long in Muncie and still keep the focus in WCh. I can just guess that I wouldn't.
But what IF you just let people fly, and then find some Ph. D. of Microsoft Excel to make separate results, for for example:
Is not the whole concept of making The Nats & WC run consecutively based on the theory that some actually stay over and attend both?
Retirees with motor homes need to be somewhere. Why not Muncie?
-
If the WC's and the NATS were a month apart, how many would make two trips to Muncie, one to fly the NATS, and another to work the WC's? Then there's the matter of arranging the summer schedule for the flying site...
F2A, F2C, and F2D will not be part of the 2024 Nats. The Nats will be shortened, and there will be a separate World Cup between the Nats and the WC's for these three events. We don't fly F2B at the Nats, and the available time for the World Cup won't allow for F2B, so it won't be part of the World Cup. The World Cup is also a "dress rehearsal" for the contest workers.
Bill Bischoff, 2024 CLWC F2C Event Director
-
Thank you for the new information. So is this the plan?
1. Control Line Scale, before CL as usual.
2. AMA Nats, carrier, stunt, combat, racing and speed with the FAI events deleted.
3. World Cup for F2A, F2C, and F2D. Open to all?
4. World Championships for F2A, F2B, F2C, and F2D.
I would guess, for openers, three days per line item, a total of twelve days for the whole package unless there are blank days in between.
-
We don't fly F2B at the Nats, and the available time for the World Cup won't allow for F2B, so it won't be part of the World Cup. The World Cup is also a "dress rehearsal" for the contest workers.
Biill, first I don't have a dog in this fight, so my comments are mostly from curiosity. If we are compressing the Nats by eliminating F2A, F2C and F2D, why can we not lengthen the WC to include F2B? Aren't the workers for that also entitled to a warm up? I am sure this has been discussed at your level so there probably is a perfectly good reason but it really seems a shame that the country with the best facilities in the world cannot pull it off. Are we perhaps boxed in by something more important to the AMA like a drone swap meet? Sorry, I couldn't help myself.
Ken
-
Thank you for the new information. So is this the plan?
1. Control Line Scale, before CL as usual.
2. AMA Nats, carrier, stunt, combat, racing and speed with the FAI events deleted.
3. World Cup for F2A, F2C, and F2D. Open to all?
4. World Championships for F2A, F2B, F2C, and F2D.
I would guess, for openers, three days per line item, a total of twelve days for the whole package unless there are blank days in between.
Stay tuned: NATS planning meeting is in a week and we'll know the schedule then.
The proposed schedule is:
CL NATs: Aug 4-9 (Stunt) Aug 4-7 (Speed/Racing/Combat)
World Cup: Aug 8-9 (F2A,C and D)
Contingency: Aug 10
F2 World Champs: Aug 11-17
This may be changed at the NATs planning meeting, and all need to be approved by the AMA Executive Council.
A World Cup is an FAI event and is open to all who have an FAI License. The entry will be limited to be certain the events can be run in a 2-day time frame. Entry will require pre-entry, there will be a website where this can be done (not available now: I'm working on it.). The World Cup will be named in honor of Laird "Doc" Jackson.
-
Biill, first I don't have a dog in this fight, so my comments are mostly from curiosity. If we are compressing the Nats by eliminating F2A, F2C and F2D, why can we not lengthen the WC to include F2B? Aren't the workers for that also entitled to a warm up? I am sure this has been discussed at your level so there probably is a perfectly good reason but it really seems a shame that the country with the best facilities in the world cannot pull it off. Are we perhaps boxed in by something more important to the AMA like a drone swap meet? Sorry, I couldn't help myself.
Ken
First: keep in mind that your acronym "WC" can be misinterpreted. Do you mean "World Cup" or "World Championships"? Those are two distinct events. We are organizing a World Championships, and it is customary to hold a preceding Cup event.
Second, the simple answer: There is no apparent way to compress the Stunt schedule of the NATs to free up enough time to hold an FAI F2B World Cup event. OTOH: If you can think of how the NATs schedule could be altered, contact Mark Weiss and make a proposal. The content of the World Cup is not (currently) cast in concrete! If Mark and the rest of the F2B management team think we could squeeze in a 2-day event after the NATs and before the WChs, it could be done.
Regards,
Bill Lee
Organizer: 2024 F2 World Championships
-
Thank you, Bill. Getting those dates was my goal.
Your official answer is pretty close to my 12-day estimate, with the addition one contingency day.
-
Second, the simple answer: There is no apparent way to compress the Stunt schedule of the NATs to free up enough time to hold an FAI F2B World Cup event. OTOH: If you can think of how the NATs schedule could be altered, contact Mark Weiss and make a proposal. The content of the World Cup is not (currently) cast in concrete! If Mark and the rest of the F2B management team think we could squeeze in a 2-day event after the NATs and before the WChs, it could be done.
We are already compromising the main event to accommodate two sideshows (both yours, and even worse, a "helicopter jamboree"). I don't think that compromising it further to accomodate adding yet another sideshow makes any sense. Nor does it make sense to put in an additional contest to permit pre-judging, which allows the judges to assess the results of the first to be "corrected" in the second. It's more-or-less the same principle that does not allow them to look at the scoreboard before the contest is over. Unless you sequester them for the duration, and/or not allow the World Champ competitors to enter the World Cup.
The United States is a pretty big country, you could have a World Cup after the World Champs, or in fact any time at all that does not interfere with the NATs.
The AMA NATS should not be further compromised or compressed by one microsecond to accommodate this.
Brett
-
The AMA NATS should not be further compromised or compressed by one microsecond to accommodate this.
Brett
Absolutely no to a F2B World Cup in 2024 at Muncie.
-
First: keep in mind that your acronym "WC" can be misinterpreted. Do you mean "World Cup" or "World Championships"? Those are two distinct events. We are organizing a World Championships, and it is customary to hold a preceding Cup event.
Second, the simple answer: There is no apparent way to compress the Stunt schedule of the NATs to free up enough time to hold an FAI F2B World Cup event. OTOH: If you can think of how the NATs schedule could be altered, contact Mark Weiss and make a proposal. The content of the World Cup is not (currently) cast in concrete! If Mark and the rest of the F2B management team think we could squeeze in a 2-day event after the NATs and before the WChs, it could be done.
Regards,
Bill Lee
Organizer: 2024 F2 World Championships
Absolutely not!!! 😡😡😡
Derek
-
If you can think of how the NATs schedule could be altered, contact Mark Weiss and make a proposal. The content of the World Cup is not (currently) cast in concrete! If Mark and the rest of the F2B management team think we could squeeze in a 2-day event after the NATs and before the WChs, it could be done.
Regards,
Bill Lee
Organizer: 2024 F2 World Championships
Thanks for responding. You of all people know what is going on and I will take you response that all options, including a 2nd site, preferably right before, have been explored. I understand the impossibility of combining open with F2B. Even with 2 sets of judges and some kind of compromise on the landing rule the draw would be just too big. Maybe just leaving it as is and letting anyone with a BOM legal plane enter Open is the best we can do. I seriously doubt that the AMA cares enough about F2B to place a burden on any other group, even if it is an international event, it simply does not sell add space.
Ken
-
So far I don't think I've been to world champs without pre-champs world cup event. It's not only a warm-up for the sportsmen and organisation, but also for judges. I wouldn't agree with Brett's analogy about judges looking at the scoreboard during the contest, judges at world champs are nowadays pretty good and they know their job.
In the end I don't think it's a catastrophe if you cannot do it, just a bit weird. how about practise circles before the world champs? L
-
Maybe just leaving it as is and letting anyone with a BOM legal plane enter Open is the best we can do.
"Leaving it as is" is the key take-away. We have always accommodated foreign competitors that were willing to comply with our rules, that's why there were something like 120 entries at the 2004 NATs.
Unlike objectively-judged events, stunt requires particular principles to minimize the chances of improper (either intentional or not) influence or fatigue on the results . That is fundamentally different than other events. That is why it is no issue and does not compromise the results to have any number of TR or speed contests - a stopwatch doesn't care what you did last week. Stunt is entirely different.
The NATs format and principles that we came up with over the last 70ish years have been geared to maximizing the likelihood that the score reflects only the craftsmanship and appearance of the model, and the accuracy of the pattern, with recognition of the various factors you cannot control and do not represent error in the assessment (like the high judge/low judge effect, which is by far the biggest, and the round length limits to reduce ballooning and minimize weather effects - and not kill all the judges in the process). Knowing the results of one contest might very well influence the next, even knowing what the score was for one flight can easily influence the next. That's why the judges are told and held to the standard that they are not to look at the scores, the scoreboard, or anything else, at any point during the contest. The only way they know what they and the other judges have done is who shows up during the next round of eliminations
The lack of the same principles applied to FAI is why we (not the royal "we", most of the US stunt community) objects so strenuously to the FAI World Champs procedures/format/principles, because they do not adhere to obvious and well-tried principles we use every year. Apparently precisely *because* we are the ones who came up with it. The existing two-circle format is probably better than the utterly ridiculous one-circle trudge to oblivion that we all saw first-hand in 2004, but it was a compromise for a proper format (however many circles it takes to keep the round length around 3 hours), along with several other "agreements" that the FAI brain trust later reneged on after agreeing to it, including an agreement to run the 2004 WC in a proper format.
That's why it is different and after repeated "compromises" at the NATs for the last 3 years, and the "end around" most of stunt community to get the 2024 World Championship in the same old format, the interest in trying to compromise the NATS even further to sneak in yet another contest that ALSO further compromises sound judging principles is just beyond the pale.
I also assume that it would further burden the organizers to replace their days off in between the NATs and the World Champs with a "fun-fly contest" where they have to spend two more full days at the site. Because there aren't an infinite number of people available, we already are asking them for far too much to do the (ill-considered) existing plan. You can have world cup any time, anywhere in the USA. No one does it because no one cares about it to make the effort.
My suggestion was the flip the order and do the WC first, then the NATs .because the NATS will now look a lot like a WC warmup. This will drive people to try to push the limits to fly their accursed RTFs in the NATs, bringing the matter of DQing large numbers of competitors because of attempted BOM cheating to a head. I think that is far too big a chance to take, but apparently we are dead set on it. And in any case, the AMA NATs is not the Triple-A baseball of stunt, it is the main event, not a warm-up or practice event.
Brett
-
Some years ago, all the PAMPA "Skill Classes" were part of the NATS. I seem to recall that Expert was dropped, because of lack of participation. But IF "Expert" was returned for 2024, then the RTF Euro crowd could also fly in our NATS. But would they? With travel being as expensive as it is, it might be worth considering? D>K Steve
-
Some years ago, all the PAMPA "Skill Classes" were part of the NATS. I seem to recall that Expert was dropped, because of lack of participation. But IF "Expert" was returned for 2024, then the RTF Euro crowd could also fly in our NATS. But would they? With travel being as expensive as it is, it might be worth considering? D>K Steve
I think you and some others are under the impression that "they" would be willing to compete at a point disadvantage, even if it's their own fault for not building a BOM compliant plane.
This is the exact reason that Expert failed as a Nats class. The theory was; people who had RTF airplanes would have an event to fly in at the Nats, but those who spend that amount of money on an airplane aren't interested in a second hand award. They want to fly for the Walker Cup.
Derek
-
Brett is 100% correct!
Derek
-
Ditto what Brett said.
-
Steve, the real issue is not that we couldn't include a PAMA sponsored Expert event. We control that and bending the rules to simply drop appearance points, or even use F2B judging is well within our authority. The issue is where to fly it and who is going to judge it. I am not clear on the source for judges. Does the host country provide them or are they drawn from the competing teams? That makes a difference. One of the problems with judging as a whole is that we are all too familiar with each other at each level. It is human nature that if you know that someone is prone to a certain error you will be looking for it. Perhaps that is why non stunt fliers sometimes make the best judges. A warm up flight from a random pilot, or better yet a qualified non competitor is about all the judges should see from the group they are about to judge. Our way is simply better. Too bad we have to use theirs. Brett has cleared it up for me. Now I understand why it can't, and perhaps shouldn't, happen and why those that are organizing are in for a rough year!
Ken
-
Some years ago, all the PAMPA "Skill Classes" were part of the NATS. I seem to recall that Expert was dropped, because of lack of participation. But IF "Expert" was returned for 2024, then the RTF Euro crowd could also fly in our NATS. But would they? With travel being as expensive as it is, it might be worth considering? D>K Steve
This brings the idea back about potential world champions flying in the second-teir event just to get around BOM, which is what I expected might happen if we put in Expert at the NATS. It didn't happen that way, it failed for a different reason, but, the first time you had World Champion flying in Expert, you now have both Expert and Open and it begins to look like it is redundant, which will quickly get resolved by deleting one of them, presumably Open. End of BOM.
Brett
-
Hello stunt pilots,
here are my thoughts about the Worldchampionship 2024.
A worldcup competition before the main event is allways a good
preparation for the ic pilots to find the needle settings over the day
and the electric pilots to find their activity settings. It also helps a lot
to acclimatize after a long flight trip. The judges have not to bee the same
as for the Worldchampionship. Most important in my opinion is the chance
to meet and compete with all the pilots around, no matter if they make the
team or not. A lot of pilots do not only visit to catch the winners podium,
they come also to see their friends from around the world and make new ones for shure.
I would realy like to bring my own build model to this competition, but it
is in one peace and that make it allmost unpossible to travel with or ship for me.
Because control line stunt is priority a pilot skill class and not especially
a building class its still fine for me when I have to travel to the contest site.
The judging isn't that bad also, every competitor has the chance to fly in
front of all present judges two times no matter if he reach next round or not.
I realy hope we can make the trip.
Dietmar
-
I live on the northern frontier with Canada where they sometimes use the K-factor system of reckoning. In the USA it's 40 points all the way. Not that I win stunt contests, but in my experience it's doesn't change the outcome if you use 40 points or K.
I have encountered several people who treat 40 and K like rival religions and worship only the "One True" scoring system.
The happenings in Muncie next year will be a good chance to compare the results of the AMA and FAI scoring systems on the same field with the best flyers.
This will not in any way change the result of the FAI World Championship. But it, most likely, will have a significant effect on the AMA Nats and the Walker Cup.
-
Well, not being a fan of the BOM that I am for precision aerobatics, I will agree and have to admit, I am in 100% in agreement with Brett on the position of the USA Nats v World Championships. If they wish to come play in our turf, then play by our rules. I'm thinking, I may just plan on being in Muncy next year for this.
-
I have encountered several people who treat 40 and K like rival religions and worship only the "One True" scoring system.
Yes, I am sure that oversimplifications like that matter to some people. Fortunately we have, for the most part, adults in charge.
I also note that as long as 20ish years ago, the FAI F2B steering committee agreed, and we had an agreement to eliminate K factors in FAI. Like all agreements with the FAI, that was altered to first a "two-year experiment", then dropped entirely as "too dangerous" to experiment with, due to the usual FAI "forces unknown". That was also about the time that the FAI also reneged on the long-agreed to 4-circle format, first agreeing only to 2 circle (since that was an approved change for the end of the same year - which is still the current arrangment), then "unagreed" about 2-3 months before the contest. Proving yet again that any "agreement" with the FAI isn't worth jack-sh*t and that you can trust nothing anyone in the FAI says at any time.
They will tell you absolutely anything to get what they want, then use typical European bureaucracy to screw you over. The latest example was agreeing to use appearance points very much like the PAMPA rules (you can fly but only get appearance points if you built your own airplane), and then later altering it to have a separate beauty contest by various mystery voters.
The happenings in Muncie next year will be a good chance to compare the results of the AMA and FAI scoring systems on the same field with the best flyers.
This will not in any way change the result of the FAI World Championship. But it, most likely, will have a significant effect on the AMA Nats and the Walker Cup.
It will not affect that. What happened at the 2004 World Championship in Muncie *absolutely did* have a marked effect on US Stunt fliers and administrators. I think we have delineated that at extraordinary length among the right people.
The AMA rules and the NATS procedures are the *correct way to run big stunt contests* while optimizing the load on the judges and minimizing the effects of know systematic errors. That is NOT going to change, or, it will only change over the dead bodies of almost all of the current participants.
Brett
-
Because control line stunt is priority a pilot skill class and not especially
a building class its still fine for me when I have to travel to the contest site.
Stunt is indeed a "building class", here is the pertinent rule:
Control Line Precision Aerobatics
FOR EVENT 322, 323, 324, 325, 326.
1. Applicability.
These rules specify the requirements and judging criteria for Control Line Precision Aerobatics. This is a subjectively-judged event combining modeling craftsmanship skills and the precise and accurate execution of prescribed aerobatic maneuvers.
Brett
-
Stunt is indeed a "building class", here is the pertinent rule:
Brett
That is another good argument for a Worldcup contest before the
Worldchampionship, no colission with a national contest with it's own local rules.
Dietmar
-
That is another good argument for a Worldcup contest before the
Worldchampionship, no colission with a national contest with it's own local rules.
Dietmar
There is no good argument for a World Cup. If you're good enough to be on a team, you shouldn't need a warm up contest. There is more than enough room in Muncie for all the practice you need.
Our Nats is the premier World event, period. If you would like to be a part of it, follow the rules.
Derek
-
Derek,
having a lot of practice area is a very helpfull information,
thank you. Having no 2. competition is also not that bad,
it allows me 2 more motorcycle days with my buddy Lyle
in South Dakota.
Is the practice area gras ore pave in Muncie?
Dietmar
-
From what I have seen, there are four paved circles for stunt.
There is also the 600' x 600' grass area which could have up to nine circles. Some of these are used for combat and navy carrier, leaving maybe four short-cut grass circles for stunt. Stunt flyers often use these for practice and old time events. In my observation, expert stunt flyers who compete on pavement use these for practice.
The speed and racing cages are used for speed and racing.
The "lounge acts" of stunt (old time, classic and N-30) have not BOM rule. It would be possible for a visitor to borrow a model from a local patron who would like to sponsor him.
-
What would happen , if you waived the B.o.M. but included ' Appearance IF the Built the plane ? .
is the finish / paint , and the construction , equally awarded .
Perhaps theres a dozen attendees , at a world champs AIMING for a podium finish . Fair Enough .
The majority attend to meet , observe , learn and as an ' occasion ' , As theyre not in it for the money .
Parently the Pom's back in 78 at Woodside had the airfield as a aeromodelling festival side show , so the F2B manadgement wasnt entirely professional , but acceptable .
Suppose , as this is not a ' professional ' event ? , that some accomodations , flexability of tyranacy , and good ole boy country style hospitality would go to make it a memorable occasion
for all the travelers and wanderers , accomodateing the hard core cutting edge competitive types unhindered .
-
The World Cup will be named in honor of Laird "Doc" Jackson.
Nice touch!!!!!
-
The World Cup will be named in honor of Laird "Doc" Jackson.
[/quote]
Like Tommy F said: This is a great idea and could not be more appropriate!
-
What would happen , if you waived the B.o.M. but included ' Appearance IF the Built the plane ? .
is the finish / paint , and the construction , equally awarded .
Perhaps theres a dozen attendees , at a world champs AIMING for a podium finish . Fair Enough .
The majority attend to meet , observe , learn and as an ' occasion ' , As theyre not in it for the money .
Parently the Pom's back in 78 at Woodside had the airfield as a aeromodelling festival side show , so the F2B manadgement wasnt entirely professional , but acceptable .
Suppose , as this is not a ' professional ' event ? , that some accomodations , flexability of tyranacy , and good ole boy country style hospitality would go to make it a memorable occasion
for all the travelers and wanderers , accomodateing the hard core cutting edge competitive types unhindered .
We don't want buy-and-flies involved in our National Championship, period. I am not sure why that is so hard to understand. We are already holding an entire buy-and=fly contest the week after, is that not enough? An event that wouldn't have happened at all if we hadn't, unfortunately, been "volunteered" for it?
There is almost an entire year before the contest, that is more than ample time to build your own airplane and get it here.
Brett
-
I built this plane in 5 months! 4/22 first cut to 9/22 ready for first flight. If you want to fly in Event 322 and compete for the Walker Trophy and have your name attached to it for the rest of time then build one and come on over! Love to see you.
I can see why there is a world cup event over seas. Non team members can come and fly and have fun and team members too. The distance to travel is nothing compared to a US based worlds. Here that is much harder on contestants and staff as we have the Nats to run as well. And the US nats is priority for us. World Cup is not, not saying it isn't fun or a good thing just that it is not the priority. Overseas there is NOT another event that has to be run with the World Champs. It doesn't make sense to cram that event in when it will just be the same guys doing the same thing. I wonder how many non team members out there are planning to make the trip to fly the world cup?? Let us know...
-
Gee Doug, you can't even tell it's Monokote! :-*, And for the record, most World Championships are preceded by a World Cup event. They are a warm up for the contestants AND the officials.
-
Gee Doug, you can't even tell it's Monokote! :-*, And for the record, most World Championships are preceded by a World Cup event. They are a warm up for the contestants AND the officials.
LL~ LL~ LL~
Yes I have watched the results for the world cup each time the WCh comes up. Since it is held right before it is always interesting to see how the entrants that are in the WC and the WCh place. But this time around, as you know, the discussion is Nats WC WCh, or which ever the schedule is, all in the span of 12 days. That is going to be very hard on the volunteers..
-
I agree with Brett Buck's stalwart defense of the way Open is run and the importance of BOM. This NATS is a competition that assesses the competitor's ability in piloting, construction, and finish. It is the person who does all three the best that deserves to be our national champion.
Waiving BOM for the NATS and allowing people with RTFs to fly without appearance points does not appease this concept that has been the core of this competition for 70+ years. That would remove a entire portion of the competition for a lot of flyers. I was one of the appearance judges at the NATS this year and it is a remarkable competition in itself. Think of how difficult this job is for a competitor: They have to build a plane that has as few imperfections as possible, paint as even and shiny as possible, details that are as crisp as possible, etc. all while ensuring that their plane is strong enough and light enough to fly at the absolute highest level. The level of detail and craftsmanship that goes into these planes is remarkable when you see them up close. Things like how Howard Rush's pen lines for his cube design were all identical, Derek's masking to get 5 identical stripes with 4(?) compound curves on each of them, or Steve Millet's absolutely perfect fillets and mirror-like shine are living proof that simply not awarding appearance points to bought planes does not suffice for an even playing field.
These extraordinary details take time, effort, extra construction considerations, and more often than not, weight. If these pilots were building a perfect stunt machine, they would've never gone through the trouble. They would've left them unpainted and stuck a number on them like any other RTF we can all write a check for.
And that's why a suspension, relaxation, or waiver for the BOM cannot be applied to the NATS. Planes built to compete for the Walker Cup are naturally slightly compromised because they're judged for more than just how they fly. And in a way, BOM flying compromises the pilot as well. Think of the work Dave Fitzgerald put into designing the Thundergazer. Or the tens of thousands of hours Derek Barry has spent building and finishing front-row planes. Or the ten+ Bears Doug Moon built trying to find incremental improvement to a design that underwent 5 decades of incremental improvement. That's a lot of time and effort spent crafting their own planes. BOM is not just about appearance points. It's integral to the entire philosophy of being a stunt competitor in the United States.
The NATS are 11 months away. That's ample time to build a plane and fly here. We would welcome it. And I can say to any foreign competitor: you would be judged fairly. I judged at the NATS this year and great lengths are taken to ensure that 1. the judging is fair and 2. unfair judging will never be repeated. I feel Kaz Minato's many, many Top 5 appearances in the NATS over the years is proof that a foreign pilot will be judged fairly and that there should be no worry of "home cooking." It's part of what makes the contest great.
And for those who cannot build a plane in time or travel with two planes, you are still more than welcome to come and watch the NATS, get to know the people here, and get plenty of practice flights in. There are 4 paved circles and at least 6 grass circles open for use when the competitions are done for the day. No grass circle ever has more than 3 people practicing at any time and they're kept in wonderful condition. And if you're lucky, you might even see Steve Fitton launch a model rocket halfway to the sun.
-
Jake - Well put. y1 y1
-
The Walker Cup aspiration - awarded to the best pilot flying the best plane through the best pattern.
-
There are 4 paved circles and at least 6 grass circles open for use when the competitions are done for the day. No grass circle ever has more than 3 people practicing at any time and they're kept in wonderful condition.
So this isnt like Poland then . :) S?P where you bring your own mower . %^@
-
How many Yatsenko airplanes competed in the Nats this year? I saw pictures of at least one so it seems like the BOM rules have already been 'bent', right?
I'm new to all this (obviously)...how do people 'prove' that they are truly the BOM?
-
I was also a judge at this year’s Nats and did appearance judging with my son Jake.
Everything he said is spot on. I have also competed in or judged at 28 consecutive
Nationals. Relaxing the rules, or bending the rules, or changing the rules to accomodate
non-BOM planes is an insult to me and everyone else who has strived to compete at the
level required to compete at our Nationals.
I would also be concerned about fatigue for the judges. I know I was whipped this year
after judging a very close contest. I am sure that several judges would be working multiple
events. I don’t believe this would be in their best interest. I just don’t see the necessity
of a World Cup event in addition to the Nats and W Champs.
Steve
-
To continue this off-topic discussion, I understand that #322 Aerobatics still has BOM, and #323-326 Skill Class Aerobatics permit non-BOM with loss of appearance points. If BOM is such an integral part of the event, why does it seem like the Nats is the only contest to have the #322 open age class event instead of #326 Expert Aerobatics? If it's OK for non-BOM models to compete in Expert in contests all over the country, why is it not the Nats? Isn't loss of appearance points enough of a penalty?
-
To continue this off-topic discussion, I understand that #322 Aerobatics still has BOM, and #323-326 Skill Class Aerobatics permit non-BOM with loss of appearance points. If BOM is such an integral part of the event, why does it seem like the Nats is the only contest to have the #322 open age class event instead of #326 Expert Aerobatics? If it's OK for non-BOM models to compete in Expert in contests all over the country, why is it not the Nats? Isn't loss of appearance points enough of a penalty?
Because we want to maintain the (very high) standards for a National Champion. Everyone else did it, why shouldn't the 2024 champion do it, too? I note that the JSO Championship as it currently stands long predates the existence of Skill Class Aerobatics. On a personal basis, including appearance points has usually been to my detriment, because I build in my bedroom and have to weasel around my friend's garages to paint, which has led to some difficult results. I know what to do about it, that is on *me*, not someone else's issue to accommodate.
I also note that we have already have had both Advanced Skill Class and Expert Skill Class as official events at the NATs, Advanced being somewhat successful and Expert was "a failed experiment" that ultimately seems to have *reduced* participation. Expert would only have succeeded if we had also eliminated Open, which has consistently been one of the more successful and well-attended individual events at the NATs.
Brett
-
Jake Moon for PAMPA president!
Derek
-
Jake Moon for PAMPA president!
Derek
Right on!!
-
Jake is 100% spot on!!
-
We really should put this whole "end the BOM" issue to rest. The PAMPA Planning Committee recently completed its first survey of current PAMPA membership. Being a first of its kind, of course, there were a few "hiccups". However, almost 50% of PAMPA membership responded.
To the question "I compete using built planes purchased from others" about 21% of members answered "yes", 79% answered "no". In answer to another survey question about building, more than 75% of respondees checked the answer "I do have a dedicated shop area", while another 12% checked "I have a shop area I can use, but I don't have a dedicated shop area". To the question " Do you build your own contest models?" only four members answered "no". 84% answered "I have built more than 5". And finally, only one person checked the response "I am not a builder."
There is a very small minority that would like to see the end of "BOM" in CLPA. And they are vocal, and persistant.
However, the vast majority of us are perfectly happy building and greatly enjoy building our own planes for competition. And we want that investment to count in the final tally. We should not allow ourselves to be badgered into a situation that we definitely do not want.
-
How many Yatsenko airplanes competed in the Nats this year? I saw pictures of at least one so it seems like the BOM rules have already been 'bent', right?
I'm new to all this (obviously)...how do people 'prove' that they are truly the BOM?
No rules bent. There was only one Yatsenko design airplane flown in OPEN-and that one has been verified to have been sufficiently built by the pilot, using his own molds. I believe there is a series of build photos to attest to that. If any were flown in Advanced that would be acceptable since there is no BOM (but loss of appearance points) in that event.
I think we have mostly overcome the issue of BOM for our Nats. Those who are now questioning it are from other countries who want to fly their purchased airplanes here in our Nats. That's a non-starter.
-
To add to what Jake said, and there isnt much we can add to his most excellent post. If the BOM is waived or relaxed then we are no longer flying Event 322 JSO. Event 322 JSO is THE event that crowns the US CLPA National Champion. Event 322 follows the BOM rule. It really is that simple.
-
We really should put this whole "end the BOM" issue to rest. The PAMPA Planning Committee recently completed its first survey of current PAMPA membership. Being a first of its kind, of course, there were a few "hiccups". However, almost 50% of PAMPA membership responded.
To the question "I compete using built planes purchased from others" about 21% of members answered "yes", 79% answered "no". In answer to another survey question about building, more than 75% of respondees checked the answer "I do have a dedicated shop area", while another 12% checked "I have a shop area I can use, but I don't have a dedicated shop area". To the question " Do you build your own contest models?" only four members answered "no". 84% answered "I have built more than 5". And finally, only one person checked the response "I am not a builder."
There is a very small minority that would like to see the end of "BOM" in CLPA. And they are vocal, and persistant.
However, the vast majority of us are perfectly happy building and greatly enjoy building our own planes for competition. And we want that investment to count in the final tally. We should not allow ourselves to be badgered into a situation that we definitely do not want.
Well said!
-
Tom, how many of the members got the survey? I certainly didn't.
Ken
-
Tom, how many of the members got the survey? I certainly didn't.
Ken
Ken, see if this thread doesn't jog your memory.
https://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/survey-monkey/msg659079/#msg659079
-
Ken, see if this thread doesn't jog your memory.
https://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/survey-monkey/msg659079/#msg659079
Memory jogged. Still don't remember what was on it but I guess I answered it. ???
ken
-
Still don't remember what was on it but I guess I answered it.
Ken: You probably have the same exercise program as me: i go up the stairs to get something or do something, but when I get there I either don't recall why I came upstairs or I notice something that needs doing so I do it. I then go down the stairs and about the time I hit the bottom step I recall why I went up the stairs in the first place! And then lather, rinse, repeat! ;D
You should also have gotten an email from Mark Weiss just recently summarizing the survey results. If you didn't, PM me to let me know. One of the things we would like to do is improve PAMPA communications and one of those communications is from the PAMPA President to all members.
-
So they can fly the Noddy Planes in Advanced , if they can stand the flack .
Advanced that would be acceptable since there is no BOM (but loss of appearance points) in that event.
Thanks Dave , Should organise a Tug of War , best of three ; after advanced to settle animosities . R T F team Vs B O M team . Loosers shout dinner to the winners . A International Event . To lighten it up a bit .
H^^
-
To all who are still arguing that a World Cup preceding a World Champs is a warm up, I disagree.
Essentially, what no one has specifically stated is this: The World Cup predetermines who has a chance at winning the World Champs. If you fly in the World Cup, you might win. If you choose not to, for whatever reason, you have no chance of placing.
1. Often the World Cup entries are limited. If you don't enter right away, you won't get in.
2. Time commitment, some of us still have jobs and work and are unable to get that much time off work.
3. The judges will know the World Cup results, and WILL BE INFLUENCED by the results. There is no getting around this. Even if you try to not consciously be influenced, it will happen.
So, in summary, a World Cup essentially pre-determines who will win or place at the World Champs. This goes against the US model where we try very hard to have a fair contest.
-
To all who are still arguing that a World Cup preceding a World Champs is a warm up, I disagree.
Essentially, what no one has specifically stated is this: The World Cup predetermines who has a chance at winning the World Champs. If you fly in the World Cup, you might win. If you choose not to, for whatever reason, you have no chance of placing.
1. Often the World Cup entries are limited. If you don't enter right away, you won't get in.
2. Time commitment, some of us still have jobs and work and are unable to get that much time off work.
3. The judges will know the World Cup results, and WILL BE INFLUENCED by the results. There is no getting around this. Even if you try to not consciously be influenced, it will happen.
So, in summary, a World Cup essentially pre-determines who will win or place at the World Champs. This goes against the US model where we try very hard to have a fair contest.
I’m sorry you’ve had that experience with flying at the world champs without the preliminary world cup event. I think flying in the world cup benefits our team—maybe not regulars like you and Orestes, but non-Europeans the judges haven’t seen before. I signed up for the preliminary to show the judges, “hey, that guy flies pretty good stunt.” I defer to your experience, though: I haven’t flown in a world cup contest in weeks.
-
To all who are still arguing that a World Cup preceding a World Champs is a warm up, I disagree.
Essentially, what no one has specifically stated is this: The World Cup predetermines who has a chance at winning the World Champs. If you fly in the World Cup, you might win. If you choose not to, for whatever reason, you have no chance of placing.
1. Often the World Cup entries are limited. If you don't enter right away, you won't get in.
2. Time commitment, some of us still have jobs and work and are unable to get that much time off work.
3. The judges will know the World Cup results, and WILL BE INFLUENCED by the results. There is no getting around this. Even if you try to not consciously be influenced, it will happen.
So, in summary, a World Cup essentially pre-determines who will win or place at the World Champs. This goes against the US model where we try very hard to have a fair contest.
True, I've been to many World- and European champs and quite often indeed the same people are on top in both the pre-champs cup and the real champs. I may be wrong, but maybe they just flew better than the others in both contests?
I think you are underestimating the judges. L
-
I am so proud of my friends and competitors who are standing up for the BOM to remain a requirement for competing for our Walker Cup!
It wasn't trophies that...some 70 or so years ago...hooked me on flying tricks with small airplanes on wires. It was seeing two beautiful stunt ships, a semi scale stunter of a second world Air Force fighter (alas, I've forgotten which one) and an equally beautiful original stunt ship built and flown by a gentleman named Bob Emmet who soon became like a part time second Dad as he led me to learn how to not only fly pretty good but also build and finish functional stunt ships well...almost as nice as his.
That exposure and Bob's friendship fueled much of my life from that day on. Yes, flying (eventually) the ships pretty well was a great thing but building and finishing them to be beautiful and, more importantly, functional was almost an equally meaningful pleasure. Craftsmanship and functionality combined was, for many years, all but overwhelmingly satisfied my need for...well...doing something almost as attractive and yet functional as Bob's.
That I was able to take those ships to competitions among others who reacted the same way for the same reasons became an integral part of my existence. Meeting (and yes competing against) them became an important and meaningful part of my life pretty much second only to my love of family and friends...many of whom, strangely enough...had hand made flyable beauties of their own in the trunks of their cars or back end of their pick-ups!
The building and finishing of those beauties was, to me, a more valuable aspect of their function than was the flying competition itself. Sure, the few times I won or did well in such competitions was rewarding; but recognizing and admiring the beauty and craftsmanship of these friends efforts was, frankly, as--if not more--meaningful than winning or losing on a given day.
To suggest that we, as a group, would be equally or even better off if we simply bought our next stunt ship like a pair of shoes that squeaked a tune as we walked would provide equal satisfaction is, frankly, not the same thing for those of us who grew up with the "traditional" demands of the undertaking. Anybody with a few bucks, a hammer and a nail can buy and hang a beautiful picture somebody else painted on the wall...That's not so with the Walker Cup...nor should it be.
Just my opinion.
Ted
ps: my apologies for the following duplication. Couldn't figure out how to remove it.
-
I am so proud of my friends and competitors who are standing up for the BOM to remain a requirement for competing for our Walker Cup!
It wasn't trophies that...some 70 or so years ago...hooked me on flying tricks with small airplanes on wires. It was seeing two beautiful stunt ships, a semi scale stunter of a second world Air Force fighter (alas, I've forgotten which one) and an equally beautiful original stunt ship built and flown by a gentleman named Bob Emett who soon became like a part time second Dad as he led me to learn how to not only fly pretty good but also build and finish functional stunt ships well...almost as nice as his.
That exposure and Bob's friendship fueled much of my life from that day on. Yea, flying (eventually) the ships pretty well was a great thing but building and finishing them to be beautiful and, more importantly, functional was almost an equally meaningful pleasure. Craftsmanship and functionality combined was, for many years, all but overwhelmingly satisfied my need for...well...doing something almost as attractive and yet functional as Bob's.
That I was able to take those ships to competitions among others who reacted the same way for the same reasons became an integral part of my existence. Meeting (and yes competing against) them became an important and meaningful part of my life pretty much second only to my love of family and friends...many of whom, strangely enough...had hand made flyable beauties of their own in the trunks of their cars or back end of their pick-ups!
The building and finishing of those beauties was, to me, a more valuable aspect of their function than was the flying competition itself. Sure, the few times I won or did well in such competitions was rewarding; but recognizing and admiring the beauty and craftsmanship of these friends efforts was, frankly, as--if not more--meaningful than winning or losing on a given day.
To suggest that we, as a group, would be equally or even better off if we simply bought our next stunt ship like a pair of shoes that squeaked a tune as we walked would provide equal satisfaction is, frankly, not the same thing for those of us who grew up with the "traditional" demands of the undertaking. Anybody with a few bucks, a hammer and a nail can buy and hang a beautiful picture somebody else painted on the wall...That's not so with the Walker Cup...nor should it be.
Just my opinion.
Ted
-
100% right Ted!!
-
Years ago back on stuka stunt Ted spoke often about the difference between toys and personally built model airplanes. For a long time I didn't really get it. I though the BOM was not needed and was a supporter of getting rid of it for a while. But as time wore on and I built more and learned more about it the difference became VERY obvious. The light bulb finally came on. The BOM keeps it from becoming and handle waiving contest with toys. It also keeps it fair and grounded.
In every single competition where purchased equipment is involved the one with the most money wins about 95% time, maybe even higher % than that. Removing the BOM will send us right down that path as well. It can't be helped when a major advantage can be purchased. There is always someone who can spend more. When it has to be built by the contestant that's a different story all together.
The BOM, even the relaxed version we have today, insures that the contestant that wins the US Nats in JSO 322 is the most well rounded flier AND modeler that day. I have had the pleasure of putting my name on the trophy and the same thing surprises ANYONE I happen to tell about it, "and I had to build my own model. See here's a pic." Every single time they are taken aback by it. EVERY TIME! People of all walks of life who don't do what we do still know the value in "doing it yourself" and how difficult it can be.
One more thing. KT and few others back on SS stated if the BOM went away the Walker trophy should be placed in the AMA museum and a new different trophy would be started or not or whatever. I agree...
-
Lately I've been attempting to put into words my feelings about our BOM and just can't print what I want to convey. But, a couple of guys have stated the actual way it is, was, and hopefully will remain. I'm really happy they did.
dg
-
The building and finishing of those beauties was, to me, a more valuable aspect of their function than was the flying competition itself. Sure, the few times I won or did well in such competitions was rewarding; but recognizing and admiring the beauty and craftsmanship of these friends efforts was, frankly, as--if not more--meaningful than winning or losing on a given
You betcha !
-
I too stand in favor of the BOM for the JSO catagory just for the Walker Cup. I build for my stisfaction and now fly for the fun. I am not dedicated like my heros who have done it all, design, build, practice and fly for the win.
The World Cup should be for those too lazy or can not build their own plane. Now is Jake Moon okld enough to be president of PAMPA? H^^
-
Years ago back on stuka stunt Ted spoke often about the difference between toys and personally built model airplanes. For a long time I didn't really get it. I though the BOM was not needed and was a supporter of getting rid of it for a while. But as time wore on and I built more and learned more about it the difference became VERY obvious. The light bulb finally came on. The BOM keeps it from becoming and handle waiving contest with toys. It also keeps it fair and grounded.
In every single competition where purchased equipment is involved the one with the most money wins about 95% time, maybe even higher % than that. Removing the BOM will send us right down that path as well. It can't be helped when a major advantage can be purchased. There is always someone who can spend more. When it has to be built by the contestant that's a different story all together.
The BOM, even the relaxed version we have today, insures that the contestant that wins the US Nats in JSO 322 is the most well rounded flier AND modeler that day. I have had the pleasure of putting my name on the trophy and the same thing surprises ANYONE I happen to tell about it, "and I had to build my own model. See here's a pic." Every single time they are taken aback by it. EVERY TIME! People of all walks of life who don't do what we do still know the value in "doing it yourself" and how difficult it can be.
One more thing. KT and few others back on SS stated if the BOM went away the Walker trophy should be placed in the AMA museum and a new different trophy would be started or not or whatever. I agree...
Amen Doug. The distinction between the two "tasks" couldn't be clearer!
-
I too have come full circle on the BOM. Before my trip into the wilderness, I simply took the BOM for granted. Most of that was because there weren't any competitive PA ARF's in 1980 but most of it was that I simply liked building and never even considered competing with something I did not build. I think about 99% of the folks I flew with and competed against felt the same way.
When I came back into the sport the world was full of Arfs that were capable of a decent pattern, but I still wanted to design and build my own. What I saw at the contests though really bothered me. Virtually no Juniors and very few beginners. I blamed the BOM rule for that and became an advocate for dropping it. Then it hit me that eliminating the BOM would kill the sport. We are supplied by a cottage industry that would disappear without us building our planes. Alot of folks are coming back to the hobby as well and it is not just to fly, it is to build and fly. I get as much enjoyment from designing, building and experimenting as I do flying, and I suck at both!
At first I was also disappointed at not being able to host the World Cup. That opinion also changed. We could host it then run the Worlds with a bunch of worn out overworked staff? No. If they want a warmup, let them build a plane and fly our Nats.
Ken