News:


  • April 28, 2024, 08:12:19 AM

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: Why you never fly near power lines.  (Read 2038 times)

Online Mike Griffin

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2760
Why you never fly near power lines.
« on: January 23, 2024, 08:56:05 PM »
No commentary necessary on this article.

Online Ken Culbertson

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6126
Re: Why you never fly near power lines.
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2024, 11:12:10 PM »
He may not make it with that much burn coverage.  What was he thinking.

Ken

« Last Edit: January 23, 2024, 11:52:05 PM by Ken Culbertson »
AMA 15382
If it is not broke you are not trying hard enough.
USAF 1968-1974 TAC

Offline BillLee

  • AMA Member
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1294
Re: Why you never fly near power lines.
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2024, 11:24:04 PM »
Thank you.

Regards,

Bill Lee
« Last Edit: January 24, 2024, 06:56:04 AM by BillLee »
Bill Lee
AMA 20018

Offline Tony Drago

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 697
Re: Why you never fly near power lines.
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2024, 11:25:58 PM »
  Something similar happened like that in Long beach CA. a long time ago. But in that case. The guy used 100-foot lines.

Offline bob whitney

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 2248
Re: Why you never fly near power lines.
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2024, 11:37:39 PM »
that could have been me at age 12 if i hadn't hit the ground line first totally blow the plane up .we found the tank and it was a piece of scrap. i was using a U-REALY maybe that helped. i was too young to realize how close i came. 
rad racer

Online Ken Culbertson

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6126
Re: Why you never fly near power lines.
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2024, 12:04:25 AM »
« Last Edit: January 24, 2024, 07:47:35 AM by Ken Culbertson »
AMA 15382
If it is not broke you are not trying hard enough.
USAF 1968-1974 TAC

Offline katana

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 161
Re: Why you never fly near power lines.
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2024, 02:55:47 AM »
Unfortunately 'they' are out there and they are breeding! What is it with people and power lines - C/L planes, Fishing poles, hell there seem to be at least one or two light aircraft and / or hot air balloons every year that get tangled up in them.  HB~>

Offline dave siegler

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1130
  • sport flier
    • Circlemasters Flying club
Re: Why you never fly near power lines.
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2024, 05:30:44 AM »
Please publish your source. 

The article had
1) No date
2) No Author
3) No reference to the publication it appeared in
4) No news stories popped up relating to the incident.  It would be at least local news in portland. 
5) name searches did not return anything either. 

maybe I missed it. 

Google searches for the title and contents did not return any hits
Tineye and google reverse image searches did not return the picture. 
Hipa rules would make publishing a picture like this difficult for the publisher legally.

More data, please 

Dave Siegler
NE9N extra class
AMA 720731
EAA 1231299 UAS Certificate Number FA39HY9ML7  Member of the Milwaukee Circlemasters. A Gold Leader Club for over 25 years!  http://www.circlemasters.com/

Offline Dwayne Donnelly

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 571
  • Balsa Beavers Toronto Canada
Re: Why you never fly near power lines.
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2024, 05:57:39 AM »
Please publish your source. 

The article had
1) No date
2) No Author
3) No reference to the publication it appeared in
4) No news stories popped up relating to the incident.  It would be at least local news in portland. 
5) name searches did not return anything either. 

maybe I missed it. 

Google searches for the title and contents did not return any hits
Tineye and google reverse image searches did not return the picture. 
Hipa rules would make publishing a picture like this difficult for the publisher legally.

More data, please

Here's the original post on FB.
https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10221115261104664&set=gm.24574769722167387&idorvanity=906304736107218

My purpose in life is to serve as a warning to others.

Online Frank Imbriaco

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 913
  • At the 69 Willow Grove NATS with J.D. FALCON II
Re: Why you never fly near power lines.
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2024, 06:15:01 AM »
If you aren't able to access Dwayne's facebook link, the gentleman is still with us and it happened to him in 1967. In fact, the man posted it stating that it was the anniversary of his terrible misfortune.

Offline Motorman

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 3260
Re: Why you never fly near power lines.
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2024, 08:20:11 AM »
Gee, you would think the lines would go poof before doing that much damage. I guess the man is the weak link in the circuit. Ouch, lucky someone was there to revive him. Does he still fly CL?


MM 8)

Online Mike Griffin

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2760
Re: Why you never fly near power lines.
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2024, 08:24:24 AM »
Please publish your source. 

The article had
1) No date
2) No Author
3) No reference to the publication it appeared in
4) No news stories popped up relating to the incident.  It would be at least local news in portland. 
5) name searches did not return anything either. 

maybe I missed it. 

Google searches for the title and contents did not return any hits
Tineye and google reverse image searches did not return the picture. 
Hipa rules would make publishing a picture like this difficult for the publisher legally.

More data, please

Please see Dwayne's post and the link he posted for you.  I messaged Mr. Baker and asked him if I could share this to just make people aware of what can happen.

Mike

Offline Paul Smith

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 5801
Re: Why you never fly near power lines.
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2024, 08:24:29 AM »
I can say for sure that a CL flyer from our area got killed by electricity induced into him by the DTE power lines in Freedom Hill Macomb County Park in Sterling Heights Michigan.

Exactly how close he was I cannot say, other than too close.
Paul Smith

Offline Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 13741
Re: Why you never fly near power lines.
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2024, 09:39:16 AM »
Gee, you would think the lines would go poof before doing that much damage.

   How, after repeated incidents just like the one above, anyone still imagine the lines are acting as a fuse?

    Several variants are possible, but, say you are flying near high-tension lines and the lines actually do melt - or vaporize? You now have a metallic conductive gas or plasma. That has vastly less resistance than the intact lines, so you are now the fuse.  This is actually a very real problem with actual fuses on DC systems or even modeerate voltage (240V DC) switches - as you open it, once it arcs, a tiny bit if metal creates a low-resistance vapor or plasma, ionizes the air, then as you open the switch even more, the arc is sustained.

   It can happen with sufficient voltage in high-voltage AC as well, all the is required that the ionization channel remain long enough for the current to switch from the sustaining current one way and the sustaining current the other way.   An arc welder can work on AC or DC but the voltage is under 20 volts most of the time.

     So, no, the lines will not act like a fuse and burn open. If they burn open, that at least temporarily greatly reduces the resistance and greatly increases the current. A sufficiently high-voltage source can use that temporary high current to ionize even clear air sufficiently to create a low-resistance channel and sustain an arc, at least long enough for you to get killed.

    BTW, same thing with lightning to an even greater degree.

      Brett

Offline Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 13741
Re: Why you never fly near power lines.
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2024, 09:43:22 AM »
Please publish your source. 

The article had
1) No date
2) No Author
3) No reference to the publication it appeared in
4) No news stories popped up relating to the incident.  It would be at least local news in portland. 
5) name searches did not return anything either. 

maybe I missed it. 

Google searches for the title and contents did not return any hits
Tineye and google reverse image searches did not return the picture. 
Hipa rules would make publishing a picture like this difficult for the publisher legally.

More data, please

   I think your specific questions have been adequately answered. But are you genuinely unaware of the many incidents of *exactly this sort of thing happening* over the last 60+ years?  Anong other things it is why you can't by a EZ-Just Hot Rock any more - they got sued into oblivion by the family of a guy who happened to be using one when he flew near a power line and died.

     Brett

Online Mike Griffin

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2760
Re: Why you never fly near power lines.
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2024, 01:17:24 PM »
Guys, when I saw this posted on facebook, I messaged the gentleman and asked him if it would be OK if I shared it as a reminder of what can happen if you do not use your head and think.  He actually encouraged me to share it as much as I wanted in hopes this would never happen to anyone. 

Mike

Online Dave_Trible

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6154
Re: Why you never fly near power lines.
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2024, 02:06:33 PM »
I don't know if this was the exact incident or not but around that time frame is when a kid's mother sued just about every company in the hobby for a LOT of money and started putting much of the hobby industry under.  Sterling got sued and folded shortly thereafter,  Sullivan lines quit-then came back with those 'Tuff Strand' cloth lines,  Top Flight over the prop,  etc.  It may have been Testors/McCoy over the engine.  I think some shuttered BEFORE they got sued,  afraid of future lawsuits.   A bad time for the hobby..

Dave
AMA 20934
FAA Certificate FA3ATY4T94

Offline john e. holliday

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 22773
Re: Why you never fly near power lines.
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2024, 04:37:34 PM »
It is amazing that people don't have more common sense.  I remember reading about flying lines and electric power lines when I first got a set of metal lines.  Before that it was the Scientific lines that they used to put in kits.  It wasn't too long after I joined the Flying Eagles of KCK that gentle man was killed fly a model plane mith metal lines in a ball diamond close to his house.  The ball diamond lights were not on either. D>K
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline dave siegler

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1130
  • sport flier
    • Circlemasters Flying club
Re: Why you never fly near power lines.
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2024, 04:45:08 PM »
   I think your specific questions have been adequately answered. But are you genuinely unaware of the many incidents of *exactly this sort of thing happening* over the last 60+ years?  Anong other things it is why you can't by a EZ-Just Hot Rock any more - they got sued into oblivion by the family of a guy who happened to be using one when he flew near a power line and died.

     Brett

I was wrong about the picture as it did not pass my smell test.  I know incidents like this have happened, I feel a lot for the guy. 

There is a lot of bad news floating around. 

And with AI it's hard to tell.  Because it was so long ago, it did not show up anywhere.  I believe it was recent. 
Mike Tyson must have died 100 times. 

I feel for the guy.  I have seen the aftermath of electrical accidents in my professional life.  I know how bad it can be. 

So If I pissed anyone off I am sorry.  I saw a salacious picture with no sources.  Not my intention just to verify the source. 

Dave Siegler
NE9N extra class
AMA 720731
EAA 1231299 UAS Certificate Number FA39HY9ML7  Member of the Milwaukee Circlemasters. A Gold Leader Club for over 25 years!  http://www.circlemasters.com/

Offline Motorman

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 3260
Re: Why you never fly near power lines.
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2024, 04:53:37 PM »
   How, after repeated incidents just like the one above, anyone still imagine the lines are acting as a fuse?   

Just not as smart as a rocket scientist I guess.

Offline BillLee

  • AMA Member
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1294
Re: Why you never fly near power lines.
« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2024, 05:53:03 PM »
Just not as smart as a rocket scientist I guess.
Few are.
Bill Lee
AMA 20018

Offline Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 13741
Re: Why you never fly near power lines.
« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2024, 07:18:49 PM »
Just not as smart as a rocket scientist I guess.


   Sorry if it came across badly, but I was incredulous that someone might not already be aware of the fact that this is a repeated caused of death among CL Fliers and had a marked effect on the CL suppliers - when there were any - and that it is plaster all over every kit plan and piece of CL hardware you can get. Even the late Bob Whitely thought the same thing (during a upcoming lightning storm at the 93 NATs), later that week his flying buddy Lucky Pyatt showed up with bandages over all 4 knuckles of his right hand - where induced charge zapped the skin off all four fingers through the lines. Lucky indeed.    If nothing else, intact flying lines will conduct at least a few amps for a while, it takes as little as 300 mA to kill you.

   Yes, you can get killed flying CL airplanes into or even too close to power lines, the lines will not work as an effective fuse,  its not the nanny state trying to protect you, it's a very real problem and has happened at least dozens of times.

 I think stunt is pretty fun but it's not worth getting killed.

     Brett

Offline Dan McEntee

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6871
Re: Why you never fly near power lines.
« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2024, 07:27:01 PM »
   How, after repeated incidents just like the one above, anyone still imagine the lines are acting as a fuse?

    Several variants are possible, but, say you are flying near high-tension lines and the lines actually do melt - or vaporize? You now have a metallic conductive gas or plasma. That has vastly less resistance than the intact lines, so you are now the fuse.  This is actually a very real problem with actual fuses on DC systems or even modeerate voltage (240V DC) switches - as you open it, once it arcs, a tiny bit if metal creates a low-resistance vapor or plasma, ionizes the air, then as you open the switch even more, the arc is sustained.

   It can happen with sufficient voltage in high-voltage AC as well, all the is required that the ionization channel remain long enough for the current to switch from the sustaining current one way and the sustaining current the other way.   An arc welder can work on AC or DC but the voltage is under 20 volts most of the time.

     So, no, the lines will not act like a fuse and burn open. If they burn open, that at least temporarily greatly reduces the resistance and greatly increases the current. A sufficiently high-voltage source can use that temporary high current to ionize even clear air sufficiently to create a low-resistance channel and sustain an arc, at least long enough for you to get killed.

    BTW, same thing with lightning to an even greater degree.

      Brett

       I took several OSHA training classes over my career to be able to work on and with 240 and 480 VAC 3 phase systems. I'm sure there is a lot I have forgotten already but I remember air can be a pretty damn good conductor! I even learned this as a kid from my Dad, who was a commercial/industrial electrician. I remember him giving us warning speeches about playing with electricity and having a lot of respect for it. (It might have had to do with the incident where I tried to see if a car key would fit into an electrical outlet!!) I remember him saying that 120 volts will give you a nasty shock, 220 would really knock you on your ass, and as for 480 volts, you don't even need to touch it, it will reach out and grab you!! I was always careful about my distances when working around live circuits.  I watched a program about the guys that clean the insulators that high voltage transmission lines hang from one evening and it was pretty informative, even going into how to rescue some one from up high on one of those towers. If I'm remembering correctly, they said to keep a distance of 19 feet. I only remember it because it sounded like such a odd number. They didn't explain how they came up with that number. I remember from the OSHA training that the humidity in the air has a lot to do with it along with air density. That's one of the reasons it is as much or more dangerous flying a C/L model ahead of an approaching storm, even if you don't see lightning or hear thunder. The worst I ever got zapped while flying was early on learning to fly flying stunt and trying for one more flight before rolling up my lines and heading home, and it was with an Easy-Just. Put a pretty big blister in the palm of my right hand, and I generally quit flying before things get too questionable able that. i read the post that the gentleman made about the incident and it sounds like he has a good sense of humor about it and is even getting ready to get back into C/L flying again!
    Type at you later,
     Dan McEntee
AMA 28784
EAA  1038824
AMA 480405 (American Motorcyclist Association)

Offline Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 13741
Re: Why you never fly near power lines.
« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2024, 07:51:45 PM »
That's one of the reasons it is as much or more dangerous flying a C/L model ahead of an approaching storm, even if you don't see lightning or hear thunder.


   The humidity changing the conductivity is one effect. Clear air is a very good insulator, humid air somewhat less, but still fairly good. It gets to be a much better conductor when the air become ionized.

     The big effect around thunderstorms is that the voltage gradient of the atmosphere changes, flipping signs and also greatly increasing in magnitude. Normally it is about 30V/foot, meaning that there might be 1800 volts from one end of the lines to another.  This isn't much by static electricity standards, but you can build up charge flying through charged air, and with the lines acting like "plates" of a capacitor. If it should discharge, say, from your adjuster loop on a Hot Rock to your hand, there isn't much total charge so you just get a brief "zap". or, bleed it off continuously with a very low current through your copper handle wrap.  (since local charge depletion will keep the average current very low).  The issue is when the gradient goes up to 1000V/foot or more.

    Add in the pickup from distant lightning - like picking up the energy with a Crystal Radio - and that's how things like the (very dangerous) issue at the 2022 NATs flyoff.

     Golf courses have voltage gradient meters that measure the effect, and warn golfers about it when it gets too high. I am planning on contacting the AMA to either get a link to this data from one of the golf courses around Muncie, or get their own meter, to try to put in place some guidelines or warning before we have a repeat where we almost got Howard and David killed in 2022, or Paul Walker or Lucky Pyatt in 1993, or other local examples.

    I also have a lighting detector gadget, it listens for "static crashes" of lightning interfering with it's AM radio receiver. It seems to be pretty reliable out to about 15 miles, but that is arguably too close.

       Brett

     

Offline EricV

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 120
Re: Why you never fly near power lines.
« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2024, 08:26:15 PM »

   Sorry if it came across badly, but I was incredulous that someone might not already be aware of the fact that this is a repeated caused of death among CL Fliers and had a marked effect on the CL suppliers - when there were any - and that it is plaster all over every kit plan and piece of CL hardware you can get. Even the late Bob Whitely thought the same thing (during a upcoming lightning storm at the 93 NATs), later that week his flying buddy Lucky Pyatt showed up with bandages over all 4 knuckles of his right hand - where induced charge zapped the skin off all four fingers through the lines. Lucky indeed.    If nothing else, intact flying lines will conduct at least a few amps for a while, it takes as little as 300 mA to kill you.

   Yes, you can get killed flying CL airplanes into or even too close to power lines, the lines will not work as an effective fuse,  its not the nanny state trying to protect you, it's a very real problem and has happened at least dozens of times.

 I think stunt is pretty fun but it's not worth getting killed.

     Brett

I met a young gentleman with no arms several years ago, his story was that he was trimming trees with a gas pole saw on the property adjacent to a power substation. You know those little caged lots with the big transformers inside a heavy fenced area? Evidently he was trimming trees at what he perceived as a more than safe distance...based on some rule of thumb thinking 500kv transmission lines can arc around 7ft or so and he was much further away... Yeah, that was incomplete info. This day was wet... A path was established through other wet branches closer to the source, and the established trail supported the arc long enough to do its deed.  Now that saw used a fiberglass pole, but the throttle cable was typical sheathed push pull wire arrangement. The power arced to his saw, vaporized his arms up to his shoulders, as Brett said, he was the fuse. The power traversed his chest long enough it stopped his heart as well. The "good" news was twofold, one, they were able to jump his heart back up quickly, and two, the wounds were simultaneously cauterized so he didn't bleed out. The good news stopped there and the rest is the stuff nightmares are made from. I also once witnessed a 9" screwdriver dropped into a live 3 phase panel box by a handyman cosplaying as an electrician... It vaporized all 9" of it and sounded louder than a 30-06. They promptly called in a real electrician before someone got hurt or killed.  All I can add is if you like breathing, avoid flying anywhere near power lines!

EricV

Offline Ty Marcucci

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 713
Re: Why you never fly near power lines.
« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2024, 12:03:29 AM »
circa 1965, Newport, Rhode Island, flying in a park about 1 mile from the ocean, fog drifting in and I am flying a Veco T-bird, covered in early monocote. All of a sudden the lines jumped and one hell of a jolt hit my hand. Hot Rock handle. The adjustable cable against my palm.. Happened again and I immediately put it in the grass..That night I covered that cable with electrical tape.   D>K

Flying early spring at a local park here in Huntsville, storm coming in and the hair on our necks rose.. We went home. H^^
Ty Marcucci

Online Ken Culbertson

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6126
Re: Why you never fly near power lines.
« Reply #26 on: January 25, 2024, 07:45:15 AM »
As long as we are on this subject, I would like to know if there is a difference in line voltage and static voltage.  I was a journeyman electrician among other things in my youth.  When I was a "helper" I was told by my journeyman that electricity was always trying to find a path to ground and it was your job to not become part of that path.  Working with hot 110v was routine, you just didn't give it a path.  Static seems quite different and capable of traveling great distances to find what it is looking for or perhaps it surrounds us and is just looking for a way in.  I have noticed that wearing rubber sole shoes has little effect on static but is quite effective for line voltage.  Has anybody been zapped using spectra lines?  My guess is that they probably don't offer any protection - it will find the line clips on the handle. 

Just asking - Ken   
AMA 15382
If it is not broke you are not trying hard enough.
USAF 1968-1974 TAC

Offline Mike Morrow

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 66
Re: Why you never fly near power lines.
« Reply #27 on: January 25, 2024, 08:17:37 AM »
I want to thank you guys for diving into this a little bit. As I've said before I'm a little late to the C/L world and I seldom fly with anyone else. I had no idea... Now I know.

Mike

Sent from my SM-A146U using Tapatalk


Offline Dan McEntee

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6871
Re: Why you never fly near power lines.
« Reply #28 on: January 25, 2024, 10:32:01 AM »
I want to thank you guys for diving into this a little bit. As I've said before I'm a little late to the C/L world and I seldom fly with anyone else. I had no idea... Now I know.

Mike

Sent from my SM-A146U using Tapatalk

     To the regular, normal "man on the street", they can't comprehend what the dangers are. Most people have to be scared or "shocked" into believing. Working with it is one thing but understanding how just flying a model in proximity to high voltage lines or an approaching storm is beyond most people. Those are the types that don't heed the warnings and end up in a bad way and a headline in the news that night.
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee
AMA 28784
EAA  1038824
AMA 480405 (American Motorcyclist Association)

Offline bill bischoff

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1704
Re: Why you never fly near power lines.
« Reply #29 on: January 25, 2024, 11:31:59 AM »
OK, I'll show my ignorance. Are we talking about voltage looking for a path to ground, like jumping a gigantic spark plug gap , or is this induced electricity from moving a conductor through a magnetic field?

Offline Dan McEntee

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6871
Re: Why you never fly near power lines.
« Reply #30 on: January 25, 2024, 12:32:58 PM »
OK, I'll show my ignorance. Are we talking about voltage looking for a path to ground, like jumping a gigantic spark plug gap , or is this induced electricity from moving a conductor through a magnetic field?

      I'll say it's more like high voltage and high amperage current looking for ground in some instances, and in others, like flying in air preceding a storm it might be considered the other. If flying before a storm, you only tend to feel it if your lines are pointed in a certain direction, usually 90 degrees to the path of the system. In flying near high voltage power lines, I would say it's the other. Electricity follows the path of least resistance, correct? If you get close to that 50,000 volt line under the right conditions, you are the path of least resistance and if presented to it, then it will jump that gap. Touching it is obvious. The best example I ever saw of this was at work one evening. We had just installed a huge 8 unit double path web press, and had to install new 480 volt service to power it and some other support equipment, about 1200 amps worth if I'm remembering correctly.  The power company hung two 600 amp transformers, and we always hired outside contractors for the heavy stuff, like running the heavy cable from the transformer to a large panel on the wall near the press. They ran large diameter conduit across the roof, and penetrated the roof with an elbow to connect to the panel. After that, we did all other installations off that panel. We tapped 400 amps off that to run to another panel to power up some other support equipment plus a 480 VAC air compressor. We finished the press, test ran everything, got the county to inspect everything and gave us a blessing to use it for production. After about a month, another worker called me out to the poles that the transformers were mounted on. They ran a copper ground wire down the pole to a grounding rod to establish the earth ground. It was just getting to be twilight and getting dark. I got out there , and saw little lightning bolts running off the copper cable across the ground, like something out of a horror movie!! I called my bosses immediately, and told the press crew to shut the press down, and once they washed it up a bit, I pulled the disconnect on it, then shut down all the other equipment running off those transformers. This pissed off the press room supervisor but I didn't care, and put lock out locks on everything so no one did anything stupid!! I had heard that there was a plastic molding company in the building at one time and they had some sort of equipment outside in that area. I guessed that what ever it was, something leeched into the ground and it wasn't a good earth ground any longer, but there had to be something else wrong with the main power installation. The vendor that installed the roof top portion was called, and they tested the ground around the poll, which I guess they did NOT do the first time. The shut off the main disconnect feeding the transformers, installed new ground cables that went out about 10 feet in another direction. They sent one of their guys back up on the roof to power it up, and there was an explosion and a shower of sparks!! Just like you see in "The Natural" when he hit the ball into the lights!! I figured we would have to call the fire department to come get a dead guy!! His boss yelled up to him," Are you OK?" and it seemed like forever before he answered " Uh, yeah! WTF happened??" I went back inside to see if anyone by the press failed to do what I told them, and that was stay WAY the hell away from the machine. As I got back by the big 1200amp panel, they were all looking up at the roof, and pointed to where they saw another shower of spark where the elbow penetrated the roof. It was burned black and welded to the roofing sheet metal. After some more investigation, it was determined that the vendor skinned the cable when they were pulling it through the conduit, and that point was right there at the elbow. The cable for things like this is huge, about the size of my thumb, and was either 500 or 750 MCM rated, and it doesn't bend easy so it takes specialized equipment to pull three lengths of that through the conduit, and it should be checked afterwards. The vendor didn't do that, and obviously didn't make sure there were no sharp edges or burrs in the conduit ends and the connectors. I personally ran hundreds of feet of conduit and miles of wire from that box doing other installations on the press and support equipment, after it was brought on line and hot. If that line had suddenly found ground while I had my hands on things, I wouldn't be typing this today!! I'll never forget seeing those little blue lightning bolt running off that ground cable "looking for ground." In thinking about it afterwards, I can't believe that no one got killed out of the event, including me!! There was so many ways that something could have gone wrong! The vendor had to replace all the cable and any damaged equipment from the event. The press couldn't run , nor any of the other 480 VAC equipment coming off that panel, and I imagine the company hit them for lost revenue for the two weeks or so it took to reinstall that line. it was the third or fourth time I was almost injured and/or killed following behind a licensed on the job. But I'm proud to state that of all the heavy equipment I installed and powered up, no one has ever had to follow behind me to correct anything or been injured by any of it. I learned everything on the job, and was taught by some really great guys that knew their stuff, learning from their experience and other peoples mistakes, and I'm still here with all my body parts because of it!!
  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee
AMA 28784
EAA  1038824
AMA 480405 (American Motorcyclist Association)

Online Ken Culbertson

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6126
Re: Why you never fly near power lines.
« Reply #31 on: January 25, 2024, 01:41:17 PM »
The best example I ever saw of this was at work one evening.
Dan, you are very lucky.  That much voltage direct to a metal frame building could have turned into a scene from a horror movie.  I find it hard to fathom that the electricians allowed this to happen.  One of my jobs when working with anything larger that about a 4 gauge was to deburr the pipe ends and fittings.  Pulling wire of that size requires a "Big bad John" of a man just to hook it up to a tractor to pull it!    Even the small stuff can be stripped when it is pulled if the pipe has been cut with a rolling  pipe cutter.  Deburring the ends is just a given.

My closest incident came while tying in subpanels in a church.  They were only 220v but that is enough to knock you on your rear which is exactly what it did.  We always cut power at the pole when working with anything over 110.  I was up on a 6' ladder tying in a box when a carpenter got pissed off and turned the power back on.  Knocked me off of the ladder which saved my life.  If I was standing on the floor I could have not let go.  That carpenter got fired.

Ken   
AMA 15382
If it is not broke you are not trying hard enough.
USAF 1968-1974 TAC

Offline Marty Hammersmith

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 117
Re: Why you never fly near power lines.
« Reply #32 on: January 25, 2024, 06:43:51 PM »

     An acquaintance of mine was a Master Electrician. He was working inside the cage in the basement of a 15 story office building when he got too close to 2 legs of the high voltage three phase with a steel wrench. Not to be morbid but they didn't have a one piece body to remove.

I'm glad someone mentioned an approaching storm as a potential problem. I hadn't really considered that. I surveyed our flying circle to know how far away the power lines are and that's about the last I considered electrical danger.
Marty Hammersmith
AMA 6568

Offline Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 13741
Re: Why you never fly near power lines.
« Reply #33 on: January 25, 2024, 10:17:49 PM »
I'm glad someone mentioned an approaching storm as a potential problem. I hadn't really considered that. I surveyed our flying circle to know how far away the power lines are and that's about the last I considered electrical danger.

      Unfortunately, even the biggest contests have had several near-misses - 1993 NATS, 2004 WC, 2022 NATs - with shocks from distant thunderstorms or voltage gradients. I have made a minimal effort to research what we should do, and I think I have at least an idea on how to proceed.  My intention (as mentioned above) is to talk the AMA about having a voltage gradient measurement on-site in Muncie - either buy one or build one.

      Brett

 

Offline Dennis Leonhardi

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1777
    • AirClassix on eBay
Re: Why you never fly near power lines.
« Reply #34 on: January 25, 2024, 11:48:06 PM »
Many years ago - possibly the '60s or '70s - I knew (only superficially) a dentist in the Minneapolis area who was a sport flyer.  He travelled to Fargo for a weekend as I recall and decided to fly in a shopping mall.  Too near power lines; we were told he was electrocuted.

Whatever the exact scene and circumstances, he left the earth way too young.  The danger is very real.

Dennis
Think for yourself !  XXX might win the Nats, be an expert on designing, building, finishing, flying, tuning engines - but you might not wanna take tax advice from him.  Or consider his views on the climate to be fact ...

Offline BillLee

  • AMA Member
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1294
Re: Why you never fly near power lines.
« Reply #35 on: January 26, 2024, 07:03:40 AM »
      Unfortunately, even the biggest contests have had several near-misses - 1993 NATS, 2004 WC, 2022 NATs - with shocks from distant thunderstorms or voltage gradients. I have made a minimal effort to research what we should do, and I think I have at least an idea on how to proceed.  My intention (as mentioned above) is to talk the AMA about having a voltage gradient measurement on-site in Muncie - either buy one or build one.

      Brett

 

I think AMA had one, or something like one, a few years ago. I know during the NATs they had a weather station that monitored the-local conditions,local weather radar, etc.  I'm pretty sure it also monitored lightning problems since they would occasionally shut down flying on the site if they thought the chance for electricity problems was apparent.

May have belonged to Kaluf, not sure.
Bill Lee
AMA 20018

Offline Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 13741
Re: Why you never fly near power lines.
« Reply #36 on: January 26, 2024, 09:35:34 AM »
I think AMA had one, or something like one, a few years ago. I know during the NATs they had a weather station that monitored the-local conditions,local weather radar, etc.  I'm pretty sure it also monitored lightning problems since they would occasionally shut down flying on the site if they thought the chance for electricity problems was apparent.

May have belonged to Kaluf, not sure.


   I would have thought they/we *should* have one. I know they have a weather station, but I don't think they have a field mill, or at least they don't have any standards for use of it, because we keep going long after we should have stopped. The situation on Friday evening at the 2004 WC was absolutely alarming. I saw Marilee McMillan's (forgive me if the spelling is not right...)  hair standing on end when we were out at the L-pad, then felt my own, and even mine was like that. I strongly suggest to Warren they stop, but we kept on for at least 20 minutes, until they finally called it off halfway through Billy's first finals flight.

    There were a lot of other questionable things going on in that case, but since we have repeatedly had this sort of problem, some sort of static field meter and a standard for what is dangerous enough to stop - other than Howard getting electrocuted, then sending David out to try it for verification purposes - seems appropriate. I don't know enough about the issue to definitively give a threshold or limit, i.e. 300V/foot, polarity switched from normal, etc. but you can't do anything without having a measurement.

     Brett

p.s. It's not terribly hard to *make* a meter, but for something that you would rely on to give good absolute readings over weeks/months, it's actually rather complicated and is electromechanical with motors driving disks, and requires calibration. I see various companies offering spec sheets, but I find it ominous that they don't have a price listed or any way to buy it aside from asking for bids. Detecting lightning is rather easy and I have something for that, but I think if there is lightning, it is already too late.





Offline Dave Hull

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1908
Re: Why you never fly near power lines.
« Reply #37 on: January 26, 2024, 11:04:29 PM »
You might consider some type of polonium source/differential capacitance setup for a non-mechanical analog instrument. I recall years ago building a Maynard Hill style 3-axis autopilot for a sailplane. I was astonished how sensitive it was. The reason (as far as I could determine) that it was not commercially useful was that it was susceptible to disturbed capacitance due to approaching storms--right when a commercial autopilot would be most useful for an emergency. I suppose we could try to codify some type of existing instrument, but I assume there is no set scale for any other outdoor activities to leverage?

Build the thing, mount it to a pole and leave it active/recording for a season. Decide when too much is too much and add some margin back in. Now you're calibrated....

Just a thought,

Dave

Offline Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 13741
Re: Why you never fly near power lines.
« Reply #38 on: January 26, 2024, 11:52:24 PM »
You might consider some type of polonium source/differential capacitance setup for a non-mechanical analog instrument. I recall years ago building a Maynard Hill style 3-axis autopilot for a sailplane. I was astonished how sensitive it was. The reason (as far as I could determine) that it was not commercially useful was that it was susceptible to disturbed capacitance due to approaching storms--right when a commercial autopilot would be most useful for an emergency. I suppose we could try to codify some type of existing instrument, but I assume there is no set scale for any other outdoor activities to leverage?

Build the thing, mount it to a pole and leave it active/recording for a season. Decide when too much is too much and add some margin back in. Now you're calibrated....

   I considered that and was going to mention that the voltage gradient was the principle behind Hills "wing leveler". He had also noted that when there was an approaching storm, it wanted to flip upside down (sign change) or go unstable (100V/foot goes to 1000 volt/foot). As I recall, he said something about flying down a canyon, because there was a horizontal gradient due to the canyon walls!

  I might look into that more, I found some places to get polonium sources and they aren't that expensive, but didn't look like they wanted to sell it to individuals. Polonium also decays pretty quickly but I think any alpha source would be OK.

      Brett
« Last Edit: January 27, 2024, 12:59:05 AM by Brett Buck »

Offline Steve Helmick

  • AMA Member and supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 9941
Re: Why you never fly near power lines.
« Reply #39 on: January 27, 2024, 12:41:48 AM »
Regarding the hair-standing episodes, that's not an uncommon occurrence when fishing in a boat when there is a storm approaching. The other noticeable thing is the line rises from the rod tip and sorta floats in the air before it heads into the water. SOP is to put all rods down on the boat deck, strap 'em down and get off the lake. I wonder if Frank Williams has had that happen, because he has a "bay boat", which likely stores rods standing vertically. Carbon fiber rods are an invitation for a lightning strike.

Some of the Oregon FF contests are flown near high-tension powerlines. Seems like every year at least one model lands on the lines and is vaporized. I haven't seen it personally, but know at least one or two who managed it.

OBTW, during these storms we've been having, locally, a powerline fell on a vehicle with 3 or 4 aboard. Three jumped out and were electrocuted. IIRC, there was a 4th aboard that was rescued by a handy 14 year old girl. Probably reported on all our local TV news stations, ABC, NBC, CBS and Fox affiliates if you wish to check. Best plan is to stay put and wait to be rescued. I'm attaching a picture taken years ago, about 200' from where I worked at Boeing. Happy to say, I have no idea who was trying to fly the Cessna, but he/she survived.   ::) Steve

"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline Gerald Arana

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1535
Re: Why you never fly near power lines.
« Reply #40 on: January 27, 2024, 09:15:43 AM »
Regarding the hair-standing episodes, that's not an uncommon occurrence when fishing in a boat when there is a storm approaching. The other noticeable thing is the line rises from the rod tip and sorta floats in the air before it heads into the water. SOP is to put all rods down on the boat deck, strap 'em down and get off the lake. I wonder if Frank Williams has had that happen, because he has a "bay boat", which likely stores rods standing vertically. Carbon fiber rods are an invitation for a lightning strike.

Some of the Oregon FF contests are flown near high-tension powerlines. Seems like every year at least one model lands on the lines and is vaporized. I haven't seen it personally, but know at least one or two who managed it.

OBTW, during these storms we've been having, locally, a powerline fell on a vehicle with 3 or 4 aboard. Three jumped out and were electrocuted. IIRC, there was a 4th aboard that was rescued by a handy 14 year old girl. Probably reported on all our local TV news stations, ABC, NBC, CBS and Fox affiliates if you wish to check. Best plan is to stay put and wait to be rescued. I'm attaching a picture taken years ago, about 200' from where I worked at Boeing. Happy to say, I have no idea who was trying to fly the Cessna, but he/she survived.   ::) Steve

Steve,

Years ago when I was in RC glider competition at the Fall Soaring Festival, a pilot landed his (new) carbon fiber built glider on the power lines at the end of the field and blew out the transformer! I went out and looked at it. It was fried!

Cheers, Jerry

Offline Lauri Malila

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1633
Re: Why you never fly near power lines.
« Reply #41 on: January 27, 2024, 11:02:24 AM »
Full carbon models make impressive explosions. L

Offline Mike Hazel

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 255
Re: Why you never fly near power lines.
« Reply #42 on: January 27, 2024, 10:27:04 PM »


Some of the Oregon FF contests are flown near high-tension powerlines. Seems like every year at least one model lands on the lines and is vaporized. I haven't seen it personally, but know at least one or two who managed it.


Steve,  In 1995 I took a very short diversion from CL and flew a Satellite 788 at one of those meets.  On the second or third test flight it wound up in the high tension wires, hanging from one of the landing whiskers.  I had to leave and go to work, but the next morning when I returned the plane was down, having been retrieved by utility personnel I was told. The locals briefly nicknamed me "sparky".  The plane had a slight indent on the motor pod, where it looked like the surface had been cooked.


Advertise Here
Tags:
 


Advertise Here