Why is picking up score sheets a waste of time and very frustrating?

[John Ashford]

As Minny Pearl said "...Hooooow deeeeeeeeeeey!"

Ted Fancher made a statement in a post that he never picks up score sheets and that if you do you will soon find yourself in a "rubber room" wearing a straight jacket. (or words to that affect) I know a number of other fliers that don't pick up sheets and never look at the board during a contest. Count me as one.

I firmly believe that those who take the clip board, sheets and pencils to the edge of the circle do the best job they know how to do. In 50+ years at this game, I've only seen two occasions where I thought this was not the case. I've also mentioned on posts and in articles the the numbers are only good for that day, at that contest with those judges.  Even in the same contest you might get a 475 in Classic and with the same plane get a 530 in PA. Those numbers could even be reversed.  I've seen a couple of occasions where the top three Advanced Class fliers all beat the score of the top Expert flyer. (different judges for each class)

OK Ashford, quit rambling and get to the point.

I attended the South Arkansas contest last week in Eldorado, AR. I'm going to name the judges because that information is out there and there would be no point in my not doing so.  Joe Bowman from Camden, AR and Bill Wilson from Ft. Worth, TX judged Advanced and Expert PA.  I've known both of these men for many years and respect their dedication to trying to "get it right" when they are in the hot seat.  So I broke my own rule and picked up the score sheets from PA.  First fight Bowman was 6 points lower than Wilson.  Second flight Bowman was 8 points higher. The thing I was most happy to see on both sheets was that "worst to best" score had 14 point differential on Bowman's and 18 points differential on Wilson's.  Man that sure beats looking at 4 point spreads (which is the usual) Now I could learn what I needed to improve on right?  Weeeeeeell not necessarily!  The most interesting thing was that on individual maneuvers, they had an 11 point spread on the same figure.  Some of them Joe was highest and some, Bill was highest. 

Now to the point: Here are two judges that really to "do it right".  They get off their chairs and concentrate on every maneuver of every flight and write down a number.  That's hard work over a day but as an individual, did I learn anything usefull to help me improve my flying?  You decide.  Next contest I'm going back to not picking up score sheets. As Ted said, it's just a fast way out of this hobby.  Take up golf and enjoy the cold beer and the friendship.

Personally, I go because it's a heck of a lot of fun to fly with the guys, swap lies, flirt with the wives, etc.  If I happen to get called up to receive a trophy, that's icing on the cake.

Later,  John

[Paul Taylor]

John,
I agree with you 100%. It is all about fun for all of us. But I do try to check my score sheets to see where I could improve. I have had a few judges come up to me after the round and give me feed back. I am very grateful that they took the time to track me down and try to help me improve. That is why I try and check the score sheets. I know I will never make it to the Worlds, but I do want to try and get a little better. And take all the advice I can get, and I look at the score sheets as a little advice on what I need to work on.
I do not try and judge the judge by my scores.

Just like this message board. I ask a question, get all type of answers and advice. Some good, some not so good. Pick out what I think will work for me and use it.

Sure like your ShadyLady.....

Paul

[Zuriel Armstrong]

John,

I don't give the scores a lot of thought and never pick up my score sheets either.  Admittedly a 500+ score does make me feel good, but I always ask myself if it would hold up at the Nat's.  I believe judges are fair and usually shake out the competition to land where they should in order of placings.  I have judged in several contests and one thing I have noticed is you don't see warm up flights for the judges very often anymore.  I think it would help give the judges a better baseline for scoring. 



   "I've seen a couple of occasions where the top three Advanced Class fliers all beat the score of the top Expert flyer. (different judges for each class)"



I have never been able to attend the Nat's, it is my goal to attend some day.  I want to fly in open just to see where I shake out with flyers from across the country.  I'm not all wrapped up in being "Advanced" or "Expert".  I want to be in the competition with everyone just once like at VSC.  That would be my idea of fun, win or lose!

[Larry Fulwider]

. . .
I know a number of other fliers that don't pick up sheets and never look at the board during a contest. Count me as one.
 . . .

Most people think they do a few maneuvers particularly well, and do a few others particularly shoddy.

I don't see the harm in checking the sheets to see if you are kidding yourself -- either way. It seems foolish not to check with the folks who are supposed to know.

     Larry Fulwider

[Bob Reeves]

John and I have talked about this on several occasions. As far as I can figure out, issues with judges assigning numbers correctly on every manover to everyones idea of what it should be can't be fixed. You go fly, have fun, don't worry about what your scores are and everyone wins. You go fly, pick up your score sheets, decide you got screwed by one judge and you loose no matter if you get a trophie or not.

[Marvin Denny]

  I, personally, like to pick up my score sheets and look them over just to see what my higher (and lower) types of maneuvers are.  What needs to be studied and "worked on".  That is not on any individual judge OR contest.  but if your ---say-- verticle eights are consistantly judged low from contest to contest and by several different judges,  ---  then it seems lodgical to assume that you need to work on your verticle eights. Maybe get some tutoring on those.
  If it bothers you to see that there is an "inconsistancy" between judges at a contest, consider this----  Different judges deem errors of any individual maneuver of different severity. i.e.  two feet too low on the bottoms of the inside loops--- one judge hits you 10 points off for that while the other only hits you for  five.
  Another thing is that different judges see different errors sometimes like a small knob on the loop or a slight elongation of the loop that the other judge might have missed.   There are too many possibilities for errors for EVERY judge to catch EVERY one.
  I noticed in a BIG contest that I entered some time back that one judge rated my worst maneuver at 28 points and my best maneuver at 36---- an eight point spread from my worst to best maneuver. The other judge gave  my worst 14 and my best 40.  A 16 point spread.   I am at best a n advanced level flier.
  Now what a surprise--- when added up,  both score sheets came out within 2 points of each other.

  Both judges were nats experienced judges, and I fully respect both.
  THAT my friends is the nature of judging.

  Bigiron

[Paul Taylor]

Good point Bob

[Gary Mondry]

I like to pick them up for two reasons.  1. Like Marvin, I like to some indication of what particularly needs work and, 2. I like to make sure that the tabulators haven't accidentally summed one of my flights with one of someone else's, which has happened to me more than once.  I'm not interested in judging the judges, but I do like to know that the scores that are next to my name on the board are the ones they gave me.

Gary 

[Steve Helmick]

Good idea, Gary. Can't say I've done that, but maybe should. I have often thought that contestants (FF & CL) should check their score cards and totals, and sign off on them, like a golf score. You sign it, you are stuck with it. If you got less than what you signed for, you get that. If you sign for more than you shoulda, then DQ'd.

FWIW, one neat trick for checking your calculator work is to add all the scores, write it down, then go back and subtract the scores from that total. Should come out at zero, if all the fingers worked right. Of course, you can also just add them up again, and hopefully will get the same result. We had one club calculator that would give all sorts of odd totals.

Cheap stuff isn't always trustworthy. My CNC mill at work has a soft keyboard. When I hit the 5 key, sometimes it comes up with 5, but sometimes 59 or 95. Gets me a little peeved, because the company is too cheap to fix it, and expect me to catch those errors. So far, it only costs me some time, often going to look for T5 (Tool 5) in the directory when it posts as T59 or T95. The mills I usta run had real switches under push-on keys. Sometimes the keys would fall off, or the switch quit working. Not sure which I hate more... Steve

[Randy Powell]

At the Northwest Regionals one year, I was carping about a score I got. Ted was standing there and said to me the flier's job is to fly, the judge's job is to judge. The sooner I figured that out, the happier I would be. He was right. I haven't picked up a score sheet since. Well, once I did when I got a really high score (for me). I put that one on my wall to remind me that I can fly well, even if I usually don't.

[Matt Colan]

I always pick up my scoresheets to 1) see what could be worked on as judges sometimes put down critique notes.  And 2) see something of improvement over the course of my flying even though I don't get judged by the same judges every year.

This year, Guerry Buyers judged beginner thorugh advanced and last year, he was scoring me in the high 400s.  This year, he scored me on one flight at a 544 where I ended up with a 518, and even everybody that watched my flight thought it was great.  Getting there...

[Will Hinton]

I pick up my sheets  depending on who the judges are.  If they are guys I've flown in front of a lot then I know how they score and what they look for.  It matters not to me whether they are tough or easy, as long as I know their philosophy of the pattern manuevors.  My reasoning is that, knowing the guys and what they look for, I can spot my biggest flaws - there are many, and see any bad tendencies I may be developing and where I need the most concentration.
I totally agree with Ted and Randy's outlook that fliers fly and judges judge. but I never judge the judges, only my flying.  I feel my approach has helped me to improve a lot by using this method.  when I pull a 500 in front of some of these guys I know I've really been on that day because I know they are genuine with their scoring.  When I stink the circle up, and I do that often, I can look at it as still being inconsistent.

[Norm Faith Jr.]

I pick up my score sheets for my "three ringed binder, scrap book." I believe that I have every score sheet from every contest I've attended since flying PA. Sort of like my "log book." 
Norm

[Joe Just]

I always pick up my score sheets. Simply to determine that I am in last place.  If I am not, I begin to doubt the veracity of the judge/judges.

Joe (World's largest collection of 3rd place trophies) Just

[Chuck Feldman]

Some of us pick them up and some do not. Some of us only pick them up once in a while. That is what I do. But I do recall that some times serious errors are found. If these errors are in the upper area of the scoring it can effect the outcome. I recall that ___ ______ found and error and showed it to the CD. It was corrected and that was good. The reporting pilot was now second not first. On occasion I judge the event. Once a flier did not do the correct level laps in between manavers. When told about it he said the judges where wrong that he did do the correct number of laps. The judges repeated to him that they both picked up the error at the same time so there was no miss count. In a case like that the score sheets do no good. Only the math can be corrected not much else. If the judges err there is little you can do. Once in OTS at the VSC no less I was given 4 points for the overhead eights. This same set of judges awarded 4 Pt's to two other fliers. One of them was a very well known Nat's winner. When I asked about this score they said that an AMA eight was flown and not the OTS eight. No explanation was ever given as to exactly what the error was. The next day I simply turned around and and faced the opposite way and the eights where scored properly. But again there is no way that this kind of thing can be corrected. Now these score cards I have collected and will keep them I guess for ever. Why? Because if not for the inncorrect score (my opinion) the score cards show I would have been some where in the top twenty at the VSA OTS.

[phil c]

As Minny Pearl said "...Hooooow deeeeeeeeeeey!"

Now to the point: Here are two judges that really to "do it right".  They get off their chairs and concentrate on every maneuver of every flight and write down a number.  That's hard work over a day but as an individual, did I learn anything usefull to help me improve my flying?  You decide.  Next contest I'm going back to not picking up score sheets. As Ted said, it's just a fast way out of this hobby.  Take up golf and enjoy the cold beer and the friendship.

Personally, I go because it's a heck of a lot of fun to fly with the guys, swap lies, flirt with the wives, etc.  If I happen to get called up to receive a trophy, that's icing on the cake.

Later,  John

At least it's slowly getting better.  The rules now include some instructions for the judges, so if they do read them they are at least sort of starting on the same page.  Maybe the discrepancies between the rules and the judge's guide will get corrected.  Keith Renecle's stuntsim can be a great help to the judges who use it, learning what the maneuvers should look like, even when they aren't directly downwind.  Maybe in a few more years you'll even be sure that a 520 really does beat a 500.