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Author Topic: What to do with heavy balsa??  (Read 2342 times)

Offline Curare

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What to do with heavy balsa??
« on: May 11, 2023, 05:59:12 PM »
Hey guys, a friend gifted me a pile of 1/8" 4 x 48" sheets a while ago, and I've finally taken a bit of a look at them. There's probably about 15 sheets there.

Most, if not all, are in the 9-10lb range. Considering I generally buy 5-7lb wood these feel like they're made from maple!

Balsa is becoming harder to get these days so i consider every piece worth keeping, but I really don't know what I can do with this stuff... Is there a place for 10lb wood in a stunt ship?

Greg
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Offline Steve Berry

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Re: What to do with heavy balsa??
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2023, 06:20:33 PM »
I-beamer with 1/8" ribs instead of 3/32?

Gliders for kids/grandkids?

Build a durable (heavy) trainer for an unused engine?

Cut into strips and laminate with 1/32" between, and use for built-up tail assemblies (leave gaps in the 1/32" for hinges).

Built-up fuselage sides, using unidirectional carbon for doubters?

Building jigs? A bunch of right angle pieces, sanding bars?

Strategic bracing in full size stunter?

Lots of uses. Just have to think outside the box (circle?).

Steve

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Offline peabody

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Re: What to do with heavy balsa??
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2023, 06:24:06 PM »
Years ago Bob Hunt wrote a piece about really good balsa getting scarce.
Primarily he said to make the heavier pieces in thinner.
Sound advice and probably yields stronger models.

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: What to do with heavy balsa??
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2023, 06:25:43 PM »
Greg,
This is the problem, but if we use thinner sheets you could actually save some weight. For the wood you have it would be good for spares and stabs which need the extra strength you get from the heavier wood. Could use it for fuse sides but sand alot.

Best,    DennisT

Offline Curare

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Re: What to do with heavy balsa??
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2023, 06:44:57 PM »
Greg,
This is the problem, but if we use thinner sheets you could actually save some weight. For the wood you have it would be good for spares and stabs which need the extra strength you get from the heavier wood. Could use it for fuse sides but sand alot.

Best,    DennisT

Dennis, oddly enough this is what started it, I was knocking out a 1/2a RC model (don't hit me), and after I'd put it together I noticed it was heavy.

"This thing's a baseball bat! How heavy are those sheets?!?!" Turns out theyre over 2oz a sheet.

It's going to get sanded within an inch of it's life to take some weight off it or it'll never get off the ground!

Greg Kowalski
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Offline Curare

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Re: What to do with heavy balsa??
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2023, 06:46:13 PM »
I-beamer with 1/8" ribs instead of 3/32?

Gliders for kids/grandkids?

Build a durable (heavy) trainer for an unused engine?

Cut into strips and laminate with 1/32" between, and use for built-up tail assemblies (leave gaps in the 1/32" for hinges).

Built-up fuselage sides, using unidirectional carbon for doubters?

Building jigs? A bunch of right angle pieces, sanding bars?

Strategic bracing in full size stunter?

Lots of uses. Just have to think outside the box (circle?).

Steve

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Steve, funny you should mention doing a beamer, that was my first thought too. I had been thinking about doing an Ares but maybe 1/8 ribs are a bit thick for a .35 model. Maybe I should follow Sparky's lead and do a Beamfire?
Greg Kowalski
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Online Doug Moisuk

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Re: What to do with heavy balsa??
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2023, 08:03:01 PM »
Sell it to RC guys. 😈😈😈😈
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Online Dan McEntee

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Re: What to do with heavy balsa??
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2023, 08:54:50 PM »
  Just send it to me, and I'll ease your pain.  H^^ y1
     Type at you later,
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Offline PerttiMe

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Re: What to do with heavy balsa??
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2023, 11:23:48 PM »
Years ago Bob Hunt wrote a piece about really good balsa getting scarce.
Primarily he said to make the heavier pieces in thinner.
Sound advice and probably yields stronger models.
This.
Use it where the design calls for thicker pieces of light material.
I built a Blue Pants as a kid. Wish I still had it. Might even learn to fly it.

Online Bob Hunt

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Re: What to do with heavy balsa??
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2023, 05:25:03 AM »
As Rich mentioned above, I wrote a long piece on this subject a while back... And I saved it! I'm going to paste it in here for what it's worth. Again, this was written quite a while ago, so some references are not as they were now; most notably my being in the foam wing business. That ended last year.

Hi all:
This post will be my attempt to help all of us understand the realities of the current balsa situation and how we can help ourselves immensely from now on into the future to deal with these realities. I’m going to post this piece on several forums because I believe the need for the following information is critical to model airplane building in the 21st century.

First the medicine:

The days of 4 to 6 pound, clear, straight grain, 4 to 6 inch wide in-one-piece, readily obtainable, inexpensive balsa wood are essentially gone. Please read that sentence again. It is essential that all of us face the realities of the situation. Sure, we will occasionally be able to find isolated stashes of Ecuadorian Gold, and we should snap up those opportunities when and where they present themselves. Those of us who have been at this for awhile can remember the amazingly clear and consistent contest grade balsa that we used to be able to get on a regular basis from several suppliers. That type of wood in the quantities in which we used to receive it simply isn’t available anymore.

Where has all the balsa gone? (Sounds like an old Peter, Paul and Mary song…) The real question is, “Where is all the balsa going?” What I’m going relate now may seem incredulous, but I have checked the facts with several people who really know the balsa business and it is apparently true. A few years back most of the balsa was going to the ship building industry to line the holds and hulls in super tankers. Perhaps someone who knows more about that construction will jump in here and elaborate. Today most of the wood that’s imported is going into (and this is so ironic…) making propellers! No, not 12 x 6 inch props and the like, but rather 30 and 40 and 50 and 60 foot diameter wind farm props. The word I get is the manufacturers of those devices are purchasing huge amounts of mill run balsa from which to make the blades for those props. They apparently don’t care too much about the densities of the wood and so are just buying it up wholesale. And with it, virtually all of the “good” stuff as well.

Add to that fact that there just isn’t as much soft, light, straight grain wood coming out of the forests anymore, and you can understand that we are lucky to get what we do get! The above will no doubt cause much debate here, but all the debate in the world will not change the central fact (The 4 to 6 pound Gorilla in the room if you will…) that “our father’s balsa” is not the kind of stuff we are able to get in quantity these days. Nuff medicine?

Now the Honey:

Take great heart, because there is an answer to this problem for us. However, that answer will involve all of us accepting some new paradigms. As most of you know I’m back pretty much full time in the model airplane component business. As that fact became more known, my business doubled, and is now on its way to tripling. I’m a happy guy… What has been difficult is getting enough wood in the sizes and densities requested to fulfill my covered foam wing orders. This is not the first time this has happened to me. Back in the late 1960s and all through the 1970s I had a very successful concern that specialized in custom foam wing manufacturing (Control Line Specialties/Control Specialties). At that time I was able to purchase reasonably good quality wood, but even then getting a sufficient amount of 1/16 inch thick, 4 to 6 pound stock was a bear.

The answer was simple: Use thinner wood in heavier densities. I started producing wings covered with .047 (3/64 inch thick) balsa, and even many covered with .032 (1/32 inch thick) balsa. Look at the logic: A piece of 1/32,  10 pound density balsa, in a given length and width, weighs EXACTLY the same as a piece of 5 pound density 1/16 inch thick balsa of the same length and width dimensions. Please read that sentence again…

I’d say that 90 to 95 percent of the wings I produced in the aforementioned era were covered with the .047 material, and that included many, many wings used by the very top competitors in Stunt in the country. The overall result was the ability to keep pace with the incredible number of wing orders and provide strong, light components.

Once my clientele had bought into this concept, they found many other advantages to the shift in the wood paradigm. The heavier density wood had much better grain integrity. A good deal of soft wood contains “wind checks.”  Wind checks are chord wise cracks in the balsa sheet caused by the parent tree having swayed in the wind while growing. These cracks typically form across the trunk of a light density wood tree in several areas. This wood is not ideal for model building; especially where we need the strength of uninterrupted grain structure – such as in foam wing skinning. 

The heavier density wood has a couple of other advantages: Being denser it will not soak up as much glue during the covering process, nor modeling dope during the finishing process!  Soft wood acts just like a sponge! You can also apply a better quality finish over a harder surface than you can over a softer one.

Okay, the facts are that by using the denser balsa in thinner sections we can achieve as light or even lighter wings of a given size that will also accept a lighter, better finish. But the biggest factor is that this type of balsa should be easily available to us through any one of the balsa suppliers on an ongoing basis.

My advice is that when you are ordering custom thickness balsa wood, don’t order just a few sheets of it. Balsa suppliers will gladly adjust their cutting and sanding equipment to supply you with the thicknesses you desire, but meet them half way by ordering enough to make it worth their while to make those adjustments.

The above was accepted technology in the foam wing business back in the 1970s, and I don’t know what happened to change the paradigm back to the use of lighter density, thicker sizes in the interim. The good news is that we can once again use this avenue to have our cake, eat it too, and then all go out for a big desert afterwards.

My wood supplier has informed me that he can supply virtually all the wood I need in thinner, higher density form. That’s the direction I’m heading. I will continue to order and offer 4 to 6 pound 1/16 and/or 3/32 as requested, but the prices will be staggering as this type of wood is at a super premium these days. My prices will, in turn, reflect what I have to pay to get it. Which brings me to the last point I want to make in this post: Major manufacturers do not cater to us in large part because we are unrealistic in our perception of what hobby items should cost. Times have changed, and we must face the facts that the prices we paid for quality merchandise 20 years ago are not the prices we should expect to pay today. This is especially true of the balsa we use. If you think about it, balsa is about the least expensive major component in any Stunt model. If we had to pay double or even triple to get good balsa materials for our projects, it is still a bargain. So a shift in paradigm in our expectations of what we will have to spend to receive satisfaction is also in order. We cannot expect the manufacturers to keep the prices to us low while at the same time they are paying more. That is just an understanding of simple economics. I know that my prices will be going up!

Yours for a viable modeling future – Bob Hunt   

Okay, some things have changed since I wrote that piece, It has come to my attention that the wind propeller industry has found a replacement for balsa wood. That may mean that we might be able to get more good wood soon. Don't hold your breath in regards to how quickly this may happen. Also don't assume that the prices for good wood will return to what they used to be. The suppliers have found out that we will pay for good wood, so they are not likely to lower their prices much, if at all...

I was very fortunate to purchase about 3,000 sheets of balsa from a friend who was in the kit business but retired from that venture. He was apparently very optimistic about how many kits he was going to sell because he bought A LOT of balsa in various sizes. I made him an offer on all his sheet stock and his Lite Ply stock and he jumped at the chance to unload the wood. A lot of it was pretty light stuff; a lot was medium weight; and a lot was fairly heavy. All of it was 3mm in thickness. I went out and bought a Jet 16/32 drum sander (not cheap...) and began sanding that balsa down to sizes that was useable for my purposes. Some went down to 1/16, some to .045, and some down to 1/32 and even thinner!. The bottom line is that now all that wood is useable. And, indeed, like mentioned in the pasted piece above, I've started once more using thinner, heavier density balsa to produce light components. Sometimes a perceived negative can be a blessing in disguise...

Bob   

Offline Curare

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Re: What to do with heavy balsa??
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2023, 03:16:28 AM »
Bob, seems like great minds think alike. I had been considering buying a thicknesser/sander to do exactly what you're doing. There aren't a lot of places I could use medium hard 1/8" sheets, but sure could find a pile of uses for thinner sheets.

With that said, 10 sheets doesn't really seem like a good justification for a sander... Then again how much justification does one need for new toys!!!


G
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Online Bob Hunt

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Re: What to do with heavy balsa??
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2023, 05:22:40 AM »
LOL! well, Greg, as my very good friend, Dean Pappas is fond of saying, "There is only one hobby - spending money!"

Bob

Online Dan McEntee

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Re: What to do with heavy balsa??
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2023, 07:13:29 AM »
Bob, seems like great minds think alike. I had been considering buying a thicknesser/sander to do exactly what you're doing. There aren't a lot of places I could use medium hard 1/8" sheets, but sure could find a pile of uses for thinner sheets.

With that said, 10 sheets doesn't really seem like a good justification for a sander... Then again how much justification does one need for new toys!!!


G

   Don't look at it as just "sheet" balsa. Look at it as spars, fuselage formers for certain parts of a fuselage, strips that just haven't been separated yet!!  Lots of ways to work it into a model that is already light enough where the hardness and stiffness can be of help and still not add appreciably to the over all weight.
   Type at you later,
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Online Bob Hunt

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Re: What to do with heavy balsa??
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2023, 09:00:47 AM »
That's very true, Dan; I've sanded a lot of custom thicknesses for various model parts as required. The Jet sander I bought was probably a bit overkill for our purposes, but I got a great deal on a floor model. They go for around $1,500.00. But, I felt it more than worth it. I can hold tolerances of nominally .002 side-to-side and end-to-end on a 36-inch sheet of balsa.

I'm working on a new adaptation of my "reverse composite" technique that shows great promise to allow very this, high-density balsa to be used to produce a very light and strong wing that will require very little finish. I intend to write that process up for this forum and for the PAMPA website. Stay tuned for that near the end of summer. This will be made possible by using the Jet sander to produce balsa accurately thinner than 1/32-inch.

I'm looking at the current balsa situation as an opportunity to come up with new, and possibly better/stronger/lighter solutions to building.

Later - Bob   

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: What to do with heavy balsa??
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2023, 09:26:15 AM »
This just came up in a build for the scale Ercoupe I'm working on.  Build yourself some 1/6 or 1/5 scale sawhorses and 55-gallon drums.  Then when you need to prop the plane up on your building bench use those -- it'll look like it's in a real hanger.
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Online Larry Fernandez

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Re: What to do with heavy balsa??
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2023, 12:02:39 AM »
Give that heavy balsa to someone you don’t like.
Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team.

Online Bob Hunt

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Re: What to do with heavy balsa??
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2023, 06:03:08 AM »
Give that heavy balsa to someone you don’t like.
Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team.

Hi Larry:

I have a bunch of balsa I'd like to send to you...  LL~ LL~ LL~

(Only kidding old buddy!) Bob

Offline John Carrodus

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Re: What to do with heavy balsa??
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2023, 03:20:09 PM »
Some of the balsa we get down here in NZ over the last 6 years has been fairly hefty. You gotta use what you got when you have very little choice. Many of my models are thus lightened with strategic holes as they can't weigh anything if it ain't there but still strong enough for the job. Careful thinking and use of holes can save a significant amount of weight. see tailplane of my 262 below. The rear fuselage is also full of holes and silkspaned over then grey primer applied.

Offline FLOYD CARTER

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Re: What to do with heavy balsa??
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2023, 05:56:37 PM »
Curare indicated his balsa was 1/8" thickness.. How to get 1/16 or 1/32 out of that without just sanding like crazy (even that unlikely to produce even thickness)

What tools would the average modeler have to convert 1/8" into thinner pieces?
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Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: What to do with heavy balsa??
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2023, 07:16:16 PM »
Whack up a 1/8 undersize fancy fuselage . Varnish It , use it as a plug to mold light good thin balsa shells on . !  ;D



Then you can do a few of them .




Offline Brett Buck

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Re: What to do with heavy balsa??
« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2023, 12:10:07 PM »
Hi Larry:

I have a bunch of balsa I'd like to send to you...  LL~ LL~ LL~

(Only kidding old buddy!) Bob


I give that one 7/10, nice effort, but not outstanding. A little better version is just “What is your address?” and nothing else.

   Keep trying, I am pulling for you! You’ll make The List some day.

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Online Larry Fernandez

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Re: What to do with heavy balsa??
« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2023, 12:53:08 PM »

I give that one 7/10, nice effort, but not outstanding. A little better version is just “What is your address?” and nothing else.

   Keep trying, I am pulling for you! You’ll make The List some day.

      Brett

I would give Bob 8/10 for that.
It came out of nowhere and I wouldn’t expect a smartass comment like that from him.
Well played Mr. Hunt!

Online Bob Hunt

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Re: What to do with heavy balsa??
« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2023, 01:35:37 PM »
By the way, Brett, what's your address?

Bob

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: What to do with heavy balsa??
« Reply #23 on: May 15, 2023, 04:06:41 PM »
By the way, Brett, what's your address?

Bob

  Jokes on you, I have plenty of that wood already!  I thought was already on the "hack list" for my airplane weights and general disregard for saving wight! 

     Brett

p.s. I will say, when I was building my Nobler, I ended up with parts of 4 separate kits sorting through he wood trying to get at least usable kit parts. I cannot imagine how people in general managed to build them at a usable-with-a-Fox-35 weights, it was too much even for me.

 

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: What to do with heavy balsa??
« Reply #24 on: May 15, 2023, 04:13:41 PM »
Curare indicated his balsa was 1/8" thickness.. How to get 1/16 or 1/32 out of that without just sanding like crazy (even that unlikely to produce even thickness)

What tools would the average modeler have to convert 1/8" into thinner pieces?

   You would be amazed at how fast balsa disappears if you have 60 grit sandpaper. Or, as above, cut holes in it. And you know better than I do that 9 lb would wood have been the best Sterling or Jetco kit wood ever and would have looked like a magical weightless substance to anyone who built a lot of Berkeley kits.

      Brett

Online Dan McEntee

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Re: What to do with heavy balsa??
« Reply #25 on: May 15, 2023, 04:28:19 PM »
   You would be amazed at how fast balsa disappears if you have 60 grit sandpaper. Or, as above, cut holes in it. And you know better than I do that 9 lb would wood have been the best Sterling or Jetco kit wood ever and would have looked like a magical weightless substance to anyone who built a lot of Berkeley kits.

  " Curare indicated his balsa was 1/8" thickness.. How to get 1/16 or 1/32 out of that without just sanding like crazy (even that unlikely to produce even thickness)

What tools would the average modeler have to convert 1/8" into thinner pieces?"


      Brett

   The thing is to quit looking at it as sheet stock, but instead think of other parts that could be bade from it where you want it a little stiff and hard, but not in so much volume. There is a lot of useful purposes for that wood!.

    Type at you later,
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Offline FLOYD CARTER

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Re: What to do with heavy balsa??
« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2023, 06:10:17 PM »
Has anyone suggested using the heavy balsa for making lightweight handles?  Of course, with a central core of Russian birch plywood.
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Offline Curare

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Re: What to do with heavy balsa??
« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2023, 06:43:27 PM »
Has anyone suggested using the heavy balsa for making lightweight handles?  Of course, with a central core of Russian birch plywood.
Floyd, I already CNC my handles with an aluminium core, and 3/8" hard balsa sides, similar to a hotrock. I have piles of thicker wood, all heavy stuff that I got when a large hardware chain closed down.

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Re: What to do with heavy balsa??
« Reply #28 on: May 16, 2023, 11:08:02 PM »
Here Ya Go ,


Offline Scott Richlen

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Re: What to do with heavy balsa??
« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2024, 02:49:57 PM »
Quote
I'm working on a new adaptation of my "reverse composite" technique that shows great promise to allow very this, high-density balsa to be used to produce a very light and strong wing that will require very little finish. I intend to write that process up for this forum and for the PAMPA website. Stay tuned for that near the end of summer. This will be made possible by using the Jet sander to produce balsa accurately thinner than 1/32-inch.

Bob: did you get that written?  It sounds very interesting!!

Offline Steve Fitton

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Re: What to do with heavy balsa??
« Reply #30 on: January 17, 2024, 05:26:50 PM »
On a Randy plane (SV) the heavier 1/8th would make good fuselage doublers.

Or you could make a LOT of model rocket fins out of it.
Steve

Online Doug Moisuk

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Re: What to do with heavy balsa??
« Reply #31 on: January 17, 2024, 05:46:58 PM »
Sell it to RC guys.
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Re: What to do with heavy balsa??
« Reply #32 on: January 17, 2024, 06:01:36 PM »
Build a racing plane.

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: What to do with heavy balsa??
« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2024, 08:42:55 PM »
Heavy balsa gives me an excuse to sand baby sand. LL~

Ken
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Offline RC Storick

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Re: What to do with heavy balsa??
« Reply #34 on: January 18, 2024, 02:42:21 PM »
Or you could make Gunpowder out of it
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