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Author Topic: Eve of a spin-up  (Read 1744 times)

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Eve of a spin-up
« Reply #50 on: May 17, 2024, 05:10:23 PM »
Bobby, you are making the old DOC think hard about this design.   You do stupendous work. H^^ H^^ H^^
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Online Bob Hunt

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Re: Eve of a spin-up
« Reply #51 on: May 17, 2024, 05:31:23 PM »
Thanks for the thoughts and kind words Steve and Doc.

Doc, the reason my work seems stupendous according to my wife is that I'm just plain stupid.... %^@

I'm very much considering working this one up into a plan if I can find someone who can cut the foam appropriately. I'm retired... #^ #^ #^ #^ #^

Later - Bob

Online Paul Taylor

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Re: Eve of a spin-up
« Reply #52 on: May 17, 2024, 07:25:27 PM »
Wow Bob
What a great series of build photos.
I’m hoping the movie will be out soon. 😉🍿

I think someone has a CnC foam cutter.
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Eve of a spin-up
« Reply #53 on: May 17, 2024, 07:33:16 PM »
All in all one of the better first days I've had with a new ship in years! Got in three full patterns and lots of 1 minute, 20 second trim flights. I'm pumped!


   I never cease to be amazed at your creativity, and willingness to try something new! I said this before, and you know I wouldn't just say it if I didn't mean it  - but I can't think of *anyone* who has contributed more to the advancement of stunt than you have, it's not even close!

    Thanks for showing us yet another one!

      Brett

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Eve of a spin-up
« Reply #54 on: May 17, 2024, 08:29:48 PM »
I just returned from a full day at the flying field. 4 to 6 winds, overcast and the grass cut to the nubs; nirvana!

The Double Take twin flies much better than I anticipated; now I wish I'd put s finish on it... mw~ mw~

 I have a couple of brand new BadAss 2310 motors, and tomorrow I'm going to retrofit the Double Take with them at Rick and Paul Walker's suggestion. They should spin the 10 x5 props a bit better than the Park 450 motors that are currently in the ship. They came down just a bit hot with the 10 x 5 props.
Be sure and post the results.  That is the combo I am putting in Endgame IV.  It is a bit larger than yours so I am using the 2320-850.  I am still a bit leery of these tiny motors!

Ken
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Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Eve of a spin-up
« Reply #55 on: May 18, 2024, 05:57:32 AM »
Bob,
Great prestation and photos. Can you give us a bit more info on the battery packs and major trim adjustments you made.

Best,   DennisT

Online Bob Hunt

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Re: Eve of a spin-up
« Reply #56 on: May 18, 2024, 07:02:46 AM »
   I never cease to be amazed at your creativity, and willingness to try something new! I said this before, and you know I wouldn't just say it if I didn't mean it  - but I can't think of *anyone* who has contributed more to the advancement of stunt than you have, it's not even close!

    Thanks for showing us yet another one!

      Brett

Wow! Thanks, Brett! That means more to me than you know...

I vividly remember the day we traded planes after a Nats (or was it a Team Trials...?). Your glow powered - and quite large - Infinity and my smallish, electric powered Genesis Extreme.
Two planes could not seem to be more different. And yet, our handle settings were virtually identical and the pitch trim we prefer was also spot on. I think we could have flown each other's planes in the contest and not really known the difference. The same thing happened when Mike Palko and I traded planes. I flew his P-51 Mustang and he flew that same Genesis Extreme. And again we could have flown each other's planes in the contest! By the way, Mike won the contest that day... I was a close second. Maybe I should have flown the "Stang." mw~

Brett has earned the respect of everyone in the Stunt community for not only his designing and flying prowess (which is considerable), but also for his ability to look at everything from a clear technical and logical perspective, and then present his findings in a manner that we can all understand. So, right back at you my friend for your creativity and service to our community.

Later - Bob

Online Dennis Nunes

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Re: Eve of a spin-up
« Reply #57 on: May 18, 2024, 08:42:58 AM »


Brett has earned the respect of everyone in the Stunt community for not only his designing and flying prowess (which is considerable), but also for his ability to look at everything from a clear technical and logical perspective, and then present his findings in a manner that we can all understand. So, right back at you my friend for your creativity and service to our community.


Bob, I couldn't agree more with your compliments. I have the privilege of flying with Brett, when he can get out, for several years now. He has a unique gift for seeing what a model airplane does in the air that the majority of flyers can't or don't see. Along with the willingness to help, Brett also possesses the ability to communicate the issues and let's you know what needs to be done to fix them. And he does this in simple terms that even a second grader (like me) can understand. Thanks Brett!

Dennis

Online Tim Wescott

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Re: Eve of a spin-up
« Reply #58 on: May 18, 2024, 04:01:38 PM »
Ken:

The .02 carbon is a tissue-like material with indiscriminate weave. Good for over solid surfaces; not good over open bays. I get mine from Aerospace Composite Products in San Leandro, CA. It used to be very affordable, but - like everything else - it has gone up in price significantly. I'm looking around for a more affordable replacement

I got some of the more affordable stuff, and it won't be a nightmare the next time -- I tried putting it on the way folks tell you to do the ACP stuff, and it was a disaster.

It turns out that some of the carbon veil has sizing that's soluable in the thinners found in dope, and some doesn't.  This isn't too surprising, because epoxy isn't dope.  After a disaster of wrinkles and failed attempts at sanding them out and cursing and another layer of tissue, etc. I heard the factoid about the sizing.  Took a scrap of the stuff, dampened it with water like it was silkspan, and it went on like a dream.

So, when you're looking, if you find something, try out a sample patch with just dope, and if that doesn't work try dampening it with water or alcohol.
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Online Bob Hunt

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Re: Eve of a spin-up
« Reply #59 on: May 19, 2024, 07:13:12 AM »
Bob,
Great prestation and photos. Can you give us a bit more info on the battery packs and major trim adjustments you made.

Best,   DennisT

Hi Dennis:

Thanks for the kudos.

I'm using a single ThunderPower 5S 2200 battery pack, and it seems to work just fine. Next time I fly the ship I'll charge one battery separately (I usually charge 5 to 6 at a time on a para-board) and report on how many mA went back in.

The plane was slightly tail heavy at first (but very flyable), so I started adding clay inside the nose cone each flight until I achieved a good balance. This thing has corner to burn, so the extra weight in the nose didn't affect that. It was a bit light on line tension on the first couple of 1 minute 20 second flights, so we increased the inboard motor speed until that was cured. Still, with the 9-inch props (Zoars) it didn't pull very hard. More inboard motor speed would have helped that. But, when I went to the BadAss matched L&R 10x5 props, line tension was not an issue; it felt like it was attached to the end of a flagpole! With those props on I got a bit silly and just threw the ship all over the sky. It is most certainly one of the most fun airplanes I've flown.

Rick brought me back to earth a bit and we got back into a trim regimen until I ran out of batteries. Actually I had one left, but everyone else wanted to fly, so I put the Double Take away until I could retrofit it with the BadAss 2310-900 kv motors, Rick seems to think they will spin the 10-5 props better and produce a bit less heat. I may shorten the lines just a bit also; it is on 64 + feet center of airplane to center of handle now. This is not a big model at 565 square inches (think just slightly bigger than a Nobler...), and with the nose weight added it is now at just about 45 ounces with the battery on board (actual flight weight). The shorter lines may even increase the performance. I had a gut feeling that it was out there just a bit too far.

I will also try moving the leadouts a bit farther forward. Couldn't do this at the field on Friday because I didn't clearance the foam spar between the two cored out sections far enough to prevent the rear leadout from hitting it when moved forward. We've been flying most of our electric powered models with a somewhat further aft leadout placement, and I just assumed that I'd never need to move them very far forward. Rick Huff has discovered that with a twin you can move the leadouts very far forward and then increase the inboard motor speed to achieve a much better turn and lock. I tried this on my Turning Point twin - which flew at first just a bit better than the Wildfire twin - and found a whole new realm of turn, lock, and vertical/overhead performance. I then made that same change to the Wildfire and it too responded with much better performance all around. We are still on a learning curve with twins it seems, and they respond to some trim changes much differently than single motor ships. It just keeps getting better and better...

I also had the chance to fly Rick Huff's bf-110 twin (the one he flew at the Nats last year), and found it to be just about flawless in every respect; it turns incredibly well, tracks like a freight train in rounds, and, well, pulls like a freight train as well (my arm still hurts...). Then I let Rick fly my Crossfire, and he liked it a lot (it doesn't pull as had as his, however...).

Rick's brother, Tom was also there and he had his newly repaired and refinished Saturn with him for trimming. Rick and I spent a lot of time with that ship and got it flying really well, so all in all it was a very fun and productive day for all of us.

Next things to try on the Double Take will be a set of synthetic lines, the aforementioned BadAss 2310-900 motors, an adjustment to the internal foam spar (the old bandsaw blade through the leadout slot ploy - thank you Inspector Clouseau...). But the verdict for me is already in; this is one great flying little ship and I can see it becoming my go-to fun airplane.

I cannot promise when the plans for this one will be available, but I'm thinking sooner rather than later now that I've flown it and know that it is a good design. But, again, the limiting factor may be the availability of the proper foam core set for it (wing and tail), and, of course, time!.

Later - Bob
« Last Edit: Today at 04:12:10 AM by Bob Hunt »

Offline John Skukalek

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Re: Eve of a spin-up
« Reply #60 on: May 19, 2024, 07:35:35 AM »
I know that August is a long way off Bob, but do you think we will see you and this airplane in Muncie?

Online Bob Hunt

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Re: Eve of a spin-up
« Reply #61 on: May 19, 2024, 10:19:49 AM »
I know that August is a long way off Bob, but do you think we will see you and this airplane in Muncie?

LOL! You'll most likely see me in Muncie, but not with this ship (at least not to compete with. I might stick it in the car to give some of my friends a ride on it though...) I'll be there with a twin that has some paint on it!

Later  Bob

Offline John Skukalek

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Re: Eve of a spin-up
« Reply #62 on: May 19, 2024, 12:53:26 PM »
Cool. That's what I was thinking. That you might bring it for fun.

Offline dave siegler

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Re: Eve of a spin-up
« Reply #63 on: May 19, 2024, 02:56:43 PM »
how it the wing joined at the center section?

doeste plywood carry though?  or just glass cloth over the top?   
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Online Brent Williams

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Re: Eve of a spin-up
« Reply #64 on: May 19, 2024, 03:15:38 PM »
Looks great Bob! 
I noticed the nacelles place the motors closer to the leading edge than is possible with an IC twin.  Do you find this motor placement to be an advantage for flying performance, or CG management, or some other reasons?

I made a quicky line drawing of this.  Scale is to the nearest 'ish.   Kinda fun to use for imagineering purposes.
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Online Bob Hunt

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Re: Eve of a spin-up
« Reply #65 on: May 19, 2024, 03:24:33 PM »
how it the wing joined at the center section?

doeste plywood carry though?  or just glass cloth over the top?   

Hi Dave:

The two Lite-Ply full-depth spars butt join at the center. The 1/8 x 3/8 basswood spars go virtually full span, and are solid over the center joint, and they are well glued to the top of the full depth Lite Ply spars to prevent racking. There is no glass used, but I double overlap the carbon when applying it. You can see this in one of the above photos. The wing is stiff as a surfboard!

Later - Bob

Online Bob Hunt

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Re: Eve of a spin-up
« Reply #66 on: May 19, 2024, 03:44:14 PM »
My son, Robby and I went out for a long session today. Robby has inherited my Genesis Extreme that was built in 2001! That plane owes us nothing, but it keeps on flying extremely well.

I did a few changes to the Double Take before this session. Biggest update was changing from the E-Flight Park 450 motors to the BadAss 2310-900 motors. I noticed while I was doing the changeover that the outboard motor had no offset at all. The inboard had a bit (about 1 degree). I put in some outboard offset, and also added just a touch of tip weight.

The difference in performance with the BadAss motors was a bit amazing. Much better pull (although the added offset might have had something to do with that...). and I was able to slow the ship down a bit and still have better tension. I also reduced the RPM difference between the inboard and outboard motors a bit. I'm still running the inboard motor about 300 RPM faster than the outboard. I'll keep playing with that... It now feels like a regular size stunt model at the end of the lines. It is very easy to do rounds, and it turns and locks as well as anything I own. Robby commented that it doesn't look small in the air and suggested that I might try even longer lines (it's currently on 64 feet from center of plane to center of handle). The big thing for me was that the BadAss motors easily pulled the BadAss 10x5 props (L&R) without any heat build up. They came down warm, while the Park 450s were on the hot side.

Robby took some short videos and sent them to my computer. If anyone wants to see them, I'll forward them via email. PM me with your email address. Each video shows only one maneuver due to file size (I have to send them with Mail Drop).

This project for me is already a resounding success. Small twins at a very reasonable cost in money, time, and weight are now a reality. Fully trimmed now the weight is 44.5 ounces with battery on board.

I'm sold on twins of any size, but this small one is a hoot!

Later - Bob     
« Last Edit: May 20, 2024, 05:43:28 AM by Bob Hunt »

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Eve of a spin-up
« Reply #67 on: May 19, 2024, 06:52:07 PM »
Bob,
Interesting progress. Could you post the rpm and lap times that you are flying it at? Also, with the twins where do you set the CG? Last, since you went to the 10x5's relative to the CG where did the leadout position land?

Best,   DennisT

Online Doug Moisuk

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Re: Eve of a spin-up
« Reply #68 on: May 19, 2024, 10:17:07 PM »
Hi Bob
Greetings from Canada EH
Love the new model. That fuse style is magnificent. I fly IC but you are tempting me to electric. Don’t tell my friends.
What’s the wing span and wing area?
Will you be producing plans?
Doug Moisuk
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Offline fred cesquim

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Re: Eve of a spin-up
« Reply #69 on: Yesterday at 03:35:55 AM »
I just returned from a full day at the flying field. 4 to 6 winds, overcast and the grass cut to the nubs; nirvana!

The Double Take twin flies much better than I anticipated; now I wish I'd put a finish on it... mw~ mw~

Seriously, Rick and Sara Marie Huff, and Tom Huff joined me for a great day of flying. Rick has a ton of twin experience and he made some suggestions that made the little twin fly better and better with each flight. I initially had Zoar 9 x 5 props on it, and they worked okay, but then we threw on a matched set (L & R) of BadAss 10 x 5 props and the ship came alive in a big way. I discovered that I have a couple of brand new BadAss 2310 motors, and tomorrow I'm going to retrofit the Double Take with them at Rick and Paul Walker's suggestion. They should spin the 10 x5 props a bit better than the Park 450 motors that are currently in the ship. They came down just a bit hot with the 10 x 5 props...

All in all one of the better first days I've had with a new ship in years! Got in three full patterns and lots of 1 minute, 20 second trim flights. I'm pumped!

Later - Bob

P.S.: The takeoff roll on grass at full power is less than six inches (actually a lot less!). Of course on asphalt I could hold in a bit of down elevator and achieve a longer roll, but it's fun to watch it looking like it was shot out of a cannon! - Bob

Congratulations Bob, another landmark model! pretty and practical to build. As always pushing the envelope and develpoing new technics! awesome desing and great construction pictures!


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