What Should I Learn Next?

[Kafin Noe’man]

Hello!

Since I've finally solved my engine run and trimming problems on my Vector & Xebec, now I have more time to focus on flying and make some more progress.

Here's what I can do now:
Take off: It's just ok.

Level flight: I'm not confident enough to fly level at 5ft, instead I fly level at around 5ft 10inch.

Wingover: entry: I can do 90 degree sharp entry at around 5ft 10inch ; exit: I can do 90 degree sharp but at a bit higher height.

Inside Loops: I can do a big & round loop, doing two consecutive loops is now getting better (I can maintain the same size & shape), but still struggling when doing the three consecutive loops (the third loop is often too tight).

Inverted flight: still learning. So far I can only do like 3-4 inverted laps at pretty high height at around 30-45 degree.

Lazy 8: I can do it better now. It used to look like an infinity symbol, but now I can make it more like an 8. So far I can only make 1 set of lazy 8 with a good shape, when I tried to do two set of lazy 8 consecutively, the second set is often too tight, thus making it looked like an infinity symbol again.

Landing: It's just ok.

So, what are your advices on what I should learn to progress?
Looking forward to hearing more from you.

Thank you so much.


Best,
Kafin Noe'man

[Jake Moon]

I'm not the end all, be all of this kind of advice as I can barely fly inverted, but I can tell you from my observations in judging that the focus of your wingover shouldn't be on exiting at 5 ft, but rather flying a straight arc directly over your head. Even at the NATS, at least 60% of competitors had a hitch or a bend in their wingover or flew it at 80-85 degrees. The bottom height will come with more experience and confidence. But those fundamental wingover errors can get engrained early and last for ages.

Again, take this with a grain of salt. The last time I attempted a reverse wingover I planted a Twister so hard into the pavement it could've started tsunami sirens.

[Air Ministry .]

At least you didnt plant a tsunami so hard it started Twister Sirens ! . 

If you had a spot in the sky , you could practise intercepting / intersecting it , at and from any and all angles . To test your ' marksmanship ' .
Also flying out at least half a tank , INVERTED . ( if not a full one ) will in future remove any aprehenshion THERE , due to Practise & familiarity .

It helps no end , if you get a " Oh Sh . . " to attempt exit at the most adjacent level - > easiest turn . Getting the nose down for airspeed & line tension ,
THEN avoiding terra firma .

So zapping all over the shy , dogfighting a territorial seagull ( they can ' viff ' like a Harrier ) or the ability to hit a exact mark from ANY start point will help .
Getting the plane to exit a hard corner clean , and TRACK STRAIGHT at any attitude is neccesary rather than desirable .

Exactitude & placement , in fact . for all manouvers rather than any specific .

If you HAVNT got your OUTSIDE LOOPS nailed , Start there . Then you can fly say a dozen inside , the a dozen outside , and again , and again .
Multitudenous immediate repeat , gets  ' a feel ' for size & shape , wind , buoancy ! ! ! , inertia , etc etc . as does upright & inverted ' groove '
at grass cutting 6 or 12 inch altitude . a well set up plane will track round indefinately there . and if youre up with the birds , a rooster tail wake
from the damp dew .

So get as comfortable with outside loops & inverted , first . then all the rest will fall in place . Like Loops ( in & out ) from 45 elevation thru the top
of the circle .
theyll also test the power & line tension . so tentative , with  a escape plan . ( Nose DOWN & step Back - for airspeed ) initially .

SO , the Step Back , is also needed , in CALM AIR . As you can Hit your slipsteam , in consecutive manouvres , stall , drop a wing , and S  P  L  A  T  T .
so watch that .

Putting in a half dozen consecutive flights , the feedback & grip on the goings on gets more natural . so Burning fuel is the only way to get you where your going .

[Miotch]

All I know is that having a disposable plane helps relieve stress learning inverted things 'n' stuff.  Sometimes relaxing helps me and I can never relax learning something with a plane I spent a lot of time building.

[Leonard Bourel]

Hi Kafine I would suggest learning your outside loops next entered from the inverted position with an old plane and keep it high Dont scare the worms or yourself and dont worry about the shape or height of them just get comfortable with that. once you can do insides and outsides then I suggest  you try to learn the horizontal 8s first with an inside loop followed by an outside loop in front of it. WE can talk more on Friday during the hangout Best Len 

[David Ebers]

I'm going to suggest learning and flying the beginners stunt pattern.

https://brodak.com/beginner_aerobatics

Flying whatever came to mind next got me into trouble many times. Having a known set of maneuvers in a known order increased the life span of my airplanes. It is a good step to the full pattern. Fly them hi and wide until you get comfortable. I was not comfortable flying inverted for awhile. For the outside loops, I'd start a lazy 8 to go into the 3 outside loops.


david

[Ken Culbertson]

Alot of folks here will disagree with me, some already have, but I think what is next is exactly what Air Ministry says - once translated into English. 
I will give you my best interpretation of what he said.  You need to get more comfortable simply making the plane go where you aim it.  You have to train your subconscious to control your wrist.  That means just flying the plane all over the place until you can follow a bird or cut the tops off of Dandelion's inverted without thinking.   No difference between up and down, just aiming the plane (preferably not at a spot on the ground).  The things that you describe are all caused by thinking.  Take the 3rd loop for example, it is tightening because the plane is changing speed.  You are consciously trying to figure out what to do instead of just tracing the path you want it to follow and letting your subconscious decide how much control to give it.  Inverted, that is panic because you are thinking about it instead of pointing the plane.  You have flown enough by now that your subconscious most likely knows "which way is up" and you don't have to think about it. 

This may sound absurd in today's environment but the first time I flew a full pattern was at a contest.  I was about 13-14 and flew with a small club in Fairfax Virginia.  I was mentored by a flier, I can't remember his name, who flew stunt and combat.  My training was simply learning to fly and with combat there is no pattern.  I didn't have a combat plane so I learned on a series of Shoestrings, Busters and Magicians.  Before long I could fly without thinking about it.  In those days clubs traveled to contests as a group and one day he told me I was going to enter Stunt at a DC local contest.  He gave me a copy of the rule book and told me to study the maneuvers.  On the day of the contest, he came to the center of the circle with me and called them out.  I had a green box Nobler with a McCoy 35 up front and I flew them all, two warmup flights and two officials, proudly placed last (today at that age it probably would have been first!).  Most of the maneuvers were barely recognizable but I did not crash, not even once.

Read whatever you can by Ted Fancher as it relates to flying.  When you draw on the blackboard you don't tell your hand to move the chalk up or down, left or right, it just traces the line your mind is drawing.

Many speak of muscle memory and always flying the pattern in order.  This is also true BUT there are two sets of muscle memory working here and to try and combine them is, to me, a big mistake.  One set is the order for the pattern, this is actually memorization more than muscle memory.  This includes every corner in order from the front to back.  This functions at a much higher level that the one that actually moves your wrist, that to me is muscle memory.  You have to get the wrist one working before you can properly build the one for the pattern, then, learn it in order and practice it in order.

Ken

[Joseph Lijoi]

S turns. Half loop to inverted half loop back to upright. Stretch out the inverted section for as long as you feel comfortable then do the half loop to upright.

[Doug Moisuk]

My suggestion or 2 cents worth.
An outside loop from the inverted position, in other words giving down elevator from the inverted position. And maybe square loops. Start these high at first.
If you get comfortable with those try the revers wing over.

[Dan McEntee]

   Keep flying what you have learned and know well at this point. Just keep flying f or the fun of it and maybe work in some new maneuvers as you feel comfortable with them. You will begin to see who the all kind of have similar aspects but different shapes. Keep "top control" and "bottom control" in mind also. The best thing for you at this time is to not try and over achieve, but refine , improve and gain more confidence in where you are know. That will also help you with any new maneuvers you want to add. You will also find that you take your airplanes home in one piece more often now after a flying session !!
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[Colin McRae]

Good progress Kafin. Just keep practicing.

I myself am working away at the AMA pattern, but starting off simple with the Beginner pattern.

Takeoff & level flight (2 laps of level flight)
Wingover
3 inside loops
3 outside loops
2 square inside loops
2 horizontal 8's
2 overhead 8's
Landing

(2 laps are needed between each of the above maneuvers)

Maybe next is to see if you can try to get into a square inside loop, and to move away from the lazy 8 and work towards an AMA horizontal 8.

[Motorman]

Doing the outside loop is unnerving because you have to point the plane right at the ground then pull out the wrong way but, if you can do a lazy 8 then try this, start the lazy 8 with the up loop as normal then when you get in the down loop ease up a little as the nose points up to get some altitude then as it comes over the top give it more and more down and continue the down loop until you come up on top again then level off upright. Basically you're just fliping inverted then doing an outside loop but if you do it in the context of the lazy 8 that you already know, you might be more comfortable with it. It will feel funny because the english will be reversed and your instinct might be to pull up but just keep repeating in your head down down down down down.

Motorman

[Ken Culbertson]

 quote author=Jake Moon link=topic=64486.msg664733#msg664733 date=1698296801]
I'm not the end all, be all of this kind of advice as I can barely fly inverted, but I can tell you from my observations in judging that the focus of your wingover shouldn't be on exiting at 5 ft, but rather flying a straight arc directly over your head. Even at the NATS, at least 60% of competitors had a hitch or a bend in their wingover or flew it at 80-85 degrees. The bottom height will come with more experience and confidence. But those fundamental wingover errors can get engrained early and last for ages.

Again, take this with a grain of salt. The last time I attempted a reverse wingover I planted a Twister so hard into the pavement it could've started tsunami sirens.
[/quote]
TWISTER ABUSE!  Now we know the real reason the circles needed resurfacing!

Seriously you just said something important.  The RWO is your first chance to show the judges your actual skill level and, like it or not it will affect the score you get on just about every maneuver that follows.  Let's say flier "A" does a really crappy RWO.  You have seen mine, so you know what a crappy one looks like.  So, you give him a 20.  Now that is followed by a "nice but not perfect" set of loops.  Much better than the RWO so you jump him all the way up to 28.  Now flier "B" does a rule book RWO and you give him a 39 then he does a "nice but not perfect" set of loops.  Bet he doesn't get a 28, probably a 31.  It is called bracketing, it is frowned upon, everybody denies that they use it, yet in real time most really do.  Somehow, I don't think you are part of that "most".  Keep at it and you will be running the clinics soon. 

Just so that you don't feel so bad about the Twister, my last crash was on the RWO too.  I was so focused on getting the path straightened out that I completely forgot that I needed to turn until it was too late.  Another reason you need a canard, but that is a different thread!

[Colin McRae]

Doing the outside loop is unnerving because you have to point the plane right at the ground then pull out the wrong way but, if you can do a lazy 8 then try this, start the lazy 8 with the up loop as normal then when you get in the down loop ease up a little as the nose points up to get some altitude then as it comes over the top give it more and more down and continue the down loop until you come up on top again then level off upright. Basically you're just fliping inverted then doing an outside loop but if you do it in the context of the lazy 8 that you already know, you might be more comfortable with it. It will feel funny because the english will be reversed and your instinct might be to pull up but just keep repeating in your head down down down down down.

Motorman

The AMA beginner pattern allows the pilot to do the outside loops from the inverted position, so you are starting the outside loop down low similar to the start of an inside loop. But it does, therefore, require 2 laps of inverted flight before you start the 3 outside loop maneuver. But for me, this is easier. I still cringe when attempting the start of the outside loop from the 45 deg high point as Motorman says.

One additional benefit of practicing the various AMA patterns is to gain experience with model fuel volume (or battery time) management as the patterns need to be completed within a specific amount of time.

Also Kafin, if you are able to attend any local CL competitions, watch how experienced pilots position themselves on all the maneuvers. Really helpful when learning how to do the various stunts well.

[Air Ministry .]

You can do the lazy eight , going around the inside loop twice or so , occasionally .
Then on the lazy eight , go around on the outside loop bit , just pullig  / feedig in slightly more down . Or just start / do it highish . up a way . so theres a bit of room under it , to start .

then your outside loops of off something you already know . as in left right , left right left left right left right right left , etc . perhaps .

if you are able to attend any local CL competitions, watch how experienced pilots position themselves on all the maneuvers.

Or in your own home , even . these Blokes arnt to bad , in fact .



Theres similarities to fishing , flying a kite , and cycling . the BALANCE &  inputs three dimensionally at the handle . bracing , tuging releasing etc . On occasion . AND the foot work .
Not all planes have dead steady mega power & totally stable line tension . sometimes youve got to work for it . To maintain airspeed and momentum . Sharp harsh handle work is
reserved for painic recovery mode . Or youll need panic recovery mode . Tho some ' steady ' planes might not object , a lot of lesser ones get out of shape with aggresive control .

So generally its easy does it . You get better feel with the handle at the outer fingers - but it can then be jolted free - so the saftey thong is required . That can be set to give neutral or full up or full down
if youve lost it there .  Getting a relaxed practised footwork pattern & stance , makes the ' piloting ' aspect less awkward too . So the olde phaux pattern / manouvre gets the memory cycle opperating pre flight .

Better - for novice .



Best .



If you buy a white suit & pracise gymnastics , you can do this .



Actually , riding a bike , flying a kite , and fishing , will get ' youre ' style , moves , prancing about like Micheal jackson ( that'd help to ) under way .

There are yarying degrees of profisioncy . The Co Ordination & unbroken focus on the task at hand are the relevant qualities . A lapse in attention or distraction is unsatisfactory . Thus the ' virtual ' flight is GOOD
for attention and practise for the task at hand . its the subleties and nuances youll learn and evolve with Air time . 10 hours is NONE , 20 is a little . 200 hours is a bit , and 2000 is a bit more . Both should be past
the mishap stage .  . A good old Bi slob slows things sufficient to make avoidances more manadgeable . even a profile one .




the bigger & faster the plane , the bigger the hole in the ground . And Conversly . Long Grass always helped there . real long . A mater of decelerative ' G ' s.

[Steve Helmick]

IMO, the Bi-Slob is a terrible "pattern" plane. Absolutely fun to watch, and fun to fly. They tend to break pretty badly, and really don't do the pattern well.

A good Twister will do you well...more Twisters would be even better. One got me to be a regular on the podium (if only we had a podium) in Advanced and some ill-founded urging to move to Expert. ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS use at least a 4" bellcrank and at least 1" flap and elevator horns to make the controls as slow as possible. You can never use more than 20 degrees of either flap or elevator, meaning +/- 20 degrees from neutral.

Keep on trimming your airplane(s). Dedicated lines and handles for each! Be sure you can go back to whatever worked best before you tried your latest change. Change one thing at a time. PAY ATTENTION TO WIND DIRECTION and do your tricks dead downwind. If your model doesn't go where you want it to go, you need trim changes. Trimming includes everything between handle and tipweight, all inclusive.  Steve

[Steve Helmick]

I'm going to suggest learning and flying the beginners stunt pattern.

https://brodak.com/beginner_aerobatics

Flying whatever came to mind next got me into trouble many times. Having a known set of maneuvers in a known order increased the life span of my airplanes. It is a good step to the full pattern. Fly them hi and wide until you get comfortable. I was not comfortable flying inverted for awhile. For the outside loops, I'd start a lazy 8 to go into the 3 outside loops.

david

David is spot-on about flying the beginner pattern...EXCEPT...if your goal is to fly the complete pattern (i.e., FAI pattern or Intermediate>Expert pattern), and since you can already fly inverted to some degree, I'd suggest throwing in some inverted laps between the inside & outside loops. Do the RWO if you wish. Work toward getting your inverted laps and maneuver bottoms down to 3 or 4 meters.

Drop the lazy 8 entirely, because it's not in any pattern, except OTS. Some can do both the Modern and OTS patterns, but there's no reason to bring the confusion into this at your stage of learning. Are you intending to fly in contests, and are there CL stunt contests where you are? I'd suggest that even if you don't have any CL stunt fliers near you, perhaps you could cultivate an R/C bod into being your coach?  Steve

[Kafin Noe’man]

So this morning I decided to give it go doing the ‘competition’ horizontal eight.

First try: inside loop was great, but too tight when doing outside loop at the top.

Second try: inside loop was great, but I think I started the outside loop early and it ended up too small loop without having enough room for the loop to be completed. BOOM!

Luckily that the plane is still in very good condition now, everything is still intact. As far as I can see, only prop and needle-valve that need to be replaced, as well as patching some covering on the wing. I also have to make sure the alignment before flying it back.

So, do we have to give a quicker response when doing the outside part compared to when doing the inside part?

Or is it better to practice that outside loop from a lazy 8 but doing the outside part 2 or 3 times consecutively? Please see the attachment below.

Doing the outside loop is unnerving because you have to point the plane right at the ground then pull out the wrong way but, if you can do a lazy 8 then try this, start the lazy 8 with the up loop as normal then when you get in the down loop ease up a little as the nose points up to get some altitude then as it comes over the top give it more and more down and continue the down loop until you come up on top again then level off upright. Basically you're just fliping inverted then doing an outside loop but if you do it in the context of the lazy 8 that you already know, you might be more comfortable with it. It will feel funny because the english will be reversed and your instinct might be to pull up but just keep repeating in your head down down down down down.

Motorman

[Dan McEntee]

   I wouldn't practice this as part of a lazy eight. The inside and outside portions are on opposite ends. You probably have been doing outside loops from inverted so you are familiar with that, correct? If so, start doing some outside loops from flying level above 45 degrees. Just do one outside loop and return to level flight. repeat until you get used to that perspective. Then just add that to the regular horizontal eight. If you do the inside loop portion at near the correct proportions, just use that as a reference for doing the outside. You may be at the point where you should be reading a thread titled "Where do you look when flying the pattern" or something like that. I think it's up in the "At the Handle " section. Lots of tips on how to use your peripheral vision so that you always know where the ground is!
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

 Start here and there are a couple of others started after this one;  https://stunthanger.com/smf/at-the-handle/repost-of-ted's-article-on-flying-the-pattern/

[Ken Culbertson]

Dan is right.  Just move things up a bit.  A couple of things that are hard to grasp at first are turning towards the ground and not using full control to do it.  Move up to about 50-60 degrees and practice a few large round outside loops that start and end at 50-60 degrees and have about a 10' bottom.  That will make them the right size, but high.  As you do the loops, and this applies to all of the round maneuvers, try and guide the plane through the loop with your arm and NOT change the control input.  It takes very little control to do a loop in either direction.  Once you have the feel for not controlling it through the loop you can judge how much you need to make the right size.  Your concern at your stage should be the size and shape of the maneuvers as you learn them, not how far they are off of the ground. 

Here is another way to learn the horizontal 8 that may actually better since the 8 starts and ends with the plane vertical at the center.  Do a wingover entry and at about 35-40 degrees start doing inverted lazy eights.  Inside, outside, inside, outside. The reason I like this is that you start the loop going straight up which you do in the pattern.  Concentrate at first on making the loops round.  Then open them up.  If you can find some video of top fliers and watch the handle, there are a couple out there, you will see almost zero handle movement in the eights. Just a slight movement on entry and a reversing at the intersections.
Getting that last one right is probably the last hurdle you will have.  Some never get it right!

Good Luck - The Fun starts now!

Ken

[Kafin Noe’man]

Hi all,

I just want to share you some of you my flying progress.
As of today, I'm now able to fly more and more of horizontal 8 figure safely, although the outside loop part is often tight.
I've started to make the outside loop bigger and bigger gradually. And yes, the key is to start the entry high and getting to know your plane's responsiveness is very important.

Merry Christmas, and happy new year!


Best,
Kafin

[Kafin Noe’man]

I just thought I would share my horizontal 8 practice progress.

One thing I notice is the loop size looks bigger from inside of the circle than from the judge’s view.

I’ve been thinking of always having my loops too high/big, but after watching that video again I think it’s okay for me who only fly for fun (but still wanna learn all the maneuvers) because we don’t have any F2B competitions anymore in Indonesia.

https://youtu.be/4swin8SX5tg?si=oH62Shx0Hl9xLUgi


Best,
Kafin

[Ken Culbertson]

... because we don’t have any F2B competitions anymore in Indonesia.

That is a good reason to move!  You are making good progress.  Try stretching the outside some and follow up with a second.  Your sizes are about right.  Keep them high for now but try and get the bottoms of both loops the same, or at least close.  It is perfectly natural to want to get back to level and tighten the second loop to do it.  Don't force that.  It will come as you start to feel just as comfortable inverted as upright.  One habit to develop early is to face the centerline of any maneuver.

Keep it up - Ken

[Motorman]

Something that I did was to do multiple loops and each one gets bigger and closer to the ground.

[John Carrodus]

Kia Ora Kafin
                   On another point, your flying conditions look very dirty and dusty. I'd suggest you keep a paint brush in your field box and brush off dust and grass at each landing. I'd also stretch some pantyhose stocking material over your venturi. This way your motor will run much cooler and not wear out internally so quickly. Do you run some caster in your fuel??You should do- in that heat - in my opinion. Also run a fuel filter - AND CLEAN it every flying day.
Cheers
Tight lines and loose feet!

[Brett Buck]

I know I have mentioned this to you before, but you need to take chances to make progress, and those chances will result in some carnage. Right now you are, seemingly, being extremely careful. Nothing terrible about that, you are doing OK, but my thought is you could/should be much more daring, even if it ends up with some wreckage from time to time.

   My impression is that you need to challenge yourself more aggressively.

   My suggestions for people trying to learn is well-documented - build simple airplanes that you can easily trim, and make multiple copies of the same airplane with the same (reliable) engines, and take them all to the field. If you crash one, grab another one and keep going, right then, and take repair supplies with you to the field. Give up only when you run out of time, or run out of airplanes that are beyond field repair. You can fix almost anything with cyanoacrylate glue and packing tape. Don't fall in love with them.

   Of necessity, they should be inexpensive and simple. I suggested Skyray 35s with OS20FP or 25LA, but anything like that is as good.

    The very worst thing you can do is have one airplane that you are afraid of crashing, and for which a crash will set you back weeks or months. Second worst thing is to encounter one problem that is fixable at the moment, but instead you give up and go home and come back next week or next month. What you need is stick time.

    I would suggest trying something new for every flying session, you seem to have lazy 8s, just try flying inverted. If you crash, you crash, I did it 100 times, it's not the end of the world. If you do, just hook up the next airplane and try it again while it is still fresh in your mind. While all this is going on, you will learn a lot of other stuff, too.

   I know you do not have a lot of/any local expertise to rely on. If you can find someone, by all means make an effort to fly with them, because the entire process can be greatly acclerated with someone who knows what they are doing to give you feedback as you go.

    Just suggestions, of course, and as you have noticed there are plenty of people pulling for you and willing to help.

      Brett

[Dennis Toth]

Kafin,
I think Bretts approach is the fastest way to progress. I would add one step before you try new maneuvers. Visualization, by this I mean you get a handle in your hand and imagine flying the maneuver with full hand movements. Do this several times before the flight so you know what motions are needed. remember to complete the maneuver before neutralizing the control.

Best,   DennisT