Untwisting The Flying Lines?

[Kafin Noe’man]

Hi I’ve just lost another flying lines in the middle of a flight. The Banshee kept making like 4 or 5 inside loops when I finally realized that one of the lines had been broken. Luckily the plane is still intact.







The lines had few kinks prior take off, mostly caused by dragging accross of the grass field (I fly solo most of the time) and probably because of my untwisting method when landed. Often times, instead of untwisting it, I accidently twisting it even more. I know the stunt schedule is designed for you to not have any twist of lines at the end of the flight.  But, at this stage, when I’m still learning to do wingover, inside loops and lazy 8, it’s expected to have twists at the end of the flight due to uneven inside and outside loops performed.

So the questions are:
1. Any tips to save the lines for solo flyer like myself?
2. What’s the right way to untwisting the lines when landed? What direction? How many turn for every 1 loop made?

Looking forward to learning more from you!


Best,
Kafin

[Tim Wescott]

First: congratulations on your save.  If you can keep cool the next time this happens, if you step toward the plane at the bottom of each loop that'll slacken the lines a bit and make the turn more shallow.  Then step away at the top of the loop, which will make the turn sharper.  The end result will be an airplane that at least doesn't hit the ground with the engine running.

Second, try to balance inside and outside maneuvers if you can.  You can twist the lines up quite a bit, but long before you break them, the friction between the lines will make the plane hard to control.

Third, don't try doing it by counting.  Walk up to the plane, pick up the lines, and walk back to the handle to untwist.  This will ensure that you're really untwisting.  When you're beginning, stick a finger through the lines to be extra sure.  Not only does this make sure that the lines are untwisted, but you've just run the entire length of lines through your hands and had a chance to feel how bad the kinks are.

Note that if you have a frayed line you may get stuck by loose wire.  I can assure you that this hurts -- I've been known to emit bad words when I do this.  But better getting stuck by a frayed line than crashing a plane, at least in my opinion.

As an extra measure of untwisting, every five or ten times you hook the plane up, run the lines out as I just described with the far end completely free.  That way, if each line has developed its own twist, you'll get that out.  Because I'm really bad at remembering something like that if I only do it every once in a while, I do it every time I run my lines out.

Finally, it makes for an awkward takeoff, but if you hold the handle over your head and put a bit of tension on it, you can hold your lines clear of grass, weeds, and whatnot.  That'll keep it from catching on things in the first place.  (And always, if you can, mow the grass short -- if you're not flying on your own property you can't always get permission to do this, but if you can, do it).

[Kafin Noe’man]

Walk up to the plane, pick up the lines, and walk back to the handle to untwist. 

Do I need to remove the lines from the handle first before I walk back to the center from the plane?

[Ken Culbertson]

Hi I’ve just lost another flying lines in the middle of a flight. The Banshee kept making like 4 or 5 inside loops when I finally realized that one of the lines had been broken. Luckily the plane is still intact.
So the questions are:
1. Any tips to save the lines for solo flyer like myself?
2. What’s the right way to untwisting the lines when landed? What direction? How many turn for every 1 loop made?

Looking forward to learning more from you!
Best,
Kafin

#1 you just have to be careful not to kink them.  When I fly alone I have some way to hold the handle at the center of the circle while I walk the plane back to the takeoff point.  #2 When I run my lines out I use one hand per line and squeeze the line between my thumb and index finger after pulling the down line to full down and run them out making note of any kinks.  If a kink is anything more than a small bend that basically flattens out under pressure, I replace the lines.  Bending a line to remove a kink may actually weaken it.   When I get to the end any wraps will unwrap on their own from the weight of the handle.  If you separate the lines by about 6" they will unwrap quickly hanging down.

For most, the pattern puts three wraps in the lines. Most pattern fliers do three outside loops (I do outside triangles just to be different) to unwrap their lines after the pattern so as to not have any wraps at landing.  For the most part anything under five is hardly noticeable.  You will naturally start balancing your inside vs outside as you progress.  Don't try to count, it will distract you.  Remember, a lazy 8 does not put a wrap in the lines.
Don't forget to wipe them down from time to time.

Ken

[Brett Buck]

Do I need to remove the lines from the handle first before I walk back to the center from the plane?

     No, just run your fingers between the lines, keep the twists from building up near your finger, then when you get to the end, just hold up the handle and let it spin on its own until it is unwound.

     I also caution you to *only do this when the airplane is sitting on the ground and the engine IS NOT RUNNING". Never, ever, touch the lines when the engine is running, because if the lines get pulled through your fingers they will saw right through them.
   
      Brett

[Ken Culbertson]

.
As an extra measure of untwisting, every five or ten times you hook the plane up, run the lines out as I just described with the far end completely free.  That way, if each line has developed its own twist, you'll get that out.  Because I'm really bad at remembering something like that if I only do it every once in a while, I do it every time I run my lines out.

I have been intending to do that for the last six months.  I have a set of Ukraine lines that have never been uncoiled since I moved them to a 5" reel.  You really didn't have to remind me.  Now I am going to have to do it.  Next I suppose you are going to shame me into wiping them down as well. 

Ken

[Kafin Noe’man]

When I fly alone I have some way to hold the handle at the center of the circle while I walk the plane back to the takeoff point.

What can I use to hold the handle? A stake or long screwdriver?
Do I get the idea right?

[Tim Wescott]

Exactly right.

[John Carrodus]

Kafin, if your lines get kinked , chuck em away -they WILL break!. If close to the end shorten them for reuse of course.
At this stage you should clean them with a clean cloth often. Unwind them carefully before every flight. ( do not force your hand down between the lines ti make the handle spin faster ...you will end up with spiral lines. I was taught to run the lines over mu right hand palm with my pointer finsplitting the lines, walk slowly and lead the wires gently into your hand with your left hand 1/3 rd of a m in front of your right hand. Good flying

[Dave Hull]

Kafin,

One thing that helps save the lines when you are flying alone is to use something like a pivoting jackstand to hold the handle. You finish the flight, then move the stand to where your handle is. Fit the handle to the stand, which might be 18" or so off the ground. Then walk your lines back to the plane. Lift the plane and the lines clear of the ground--whether pavement or grass--and walk the plane back to your preferred launch point. Then walk the lines back out and reposition the handle, being sure to move the stand out of your way before the next flight. It can be in the circle, just not anywhere you might walk, including for whipping or backing up for wind or "saves." Using the pivoting stand greatly helps to avoid snags and kinks. It also keeps the lines cleaner, especially over pavement.

Working with steel lines is certainly feasible when flying solo. But if you find you are having trouble with kinks and broken lines that won't go away, you might consider using Spectra lines.

You are making great progress! Keep having fun!

Dave

[Tom McClain]

I quit using crimped ends on my flying lines 20 plus years ago.  I use the AMA line termination using copper wire wrapped grommet ends.  I check the lines and ends every flight for breaks, kinks, and individual lines coming up out of the twist.  If you see these, replace the lines or if the kink, break, etc. are by the grommets, cut off and redo the grommet termination.   Clean the lines after every flight with a clean tissue. You will be surprised at the dirt you find from only one flight.

[Dan McEntee]

Do I need to remove the lines from the handle first before I walk back to the center from the plane?

    As stated, no, not every time. We call this "Run the lines out." Some do it just before starting the engine, some do it after starting when going out to pick up the handle.
 
     Every now and then , though, it does help to run each line out from the model to the handle individually, with the lines disconnected from the handle. The lines can develop a twist individually and this action relieves it. A piece of leather between your fingers and adding some pressure can help get rid of some curls in the line also. Do this after the final flight of the day now and then.

    What you are experiencing here is another reason to use the new fishing lines that we are allowed to use. For sport flying and the conditions you have to fly in, it eliminates the problem. You just need to use the correct size line and use the correct type of knot to secure it. There are several good threads on the forum here already and just search out "Spectra lines".
   
   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

[frank mccune]

     Hello Kafin:

     Dan has given you good advice re using fishing line.  As a sport flier, I made the change and I am very satisfied.  The fishing line is light years ahead of steel lines for CL flying.  Do yourself a huge favor, and make the change.

     Stay well,

     Frank McCune

[Brent Williams]

When you roll up your lines, are you spinning the reel on the center or are you holding the reel fixed in place and wrapping the lines around by hand?  Just trying to diagnose possible other ways you are causing line failures to happen so frequently. 

[Steve Helmick]

A LARGE screwdriver is ideal for pegging the control handle to the grass. However, I have some problems with your picture of the handle.

First, that particular Sullivan/Pylon handle is billed as a 1/2a handle on their website. Before I knew that, I used one for NorthWest Sport Race, which at the time was Fox .35 Stunt powered Ringmasters, Busters, Shoestrings, and the like. Typically 35+ ounces going about 75 mph, and 3 (or 4?) flying at the same time, in the same circle. They work, but I would suggest a better handle. I like Brent's "Fancher" "hard point" handles very well. A handle/line set  for each model you have flyable is a huge leap forward. Finding the perfect "neutral" setting is a requirement, and there's just no other way to do it.

Second, you really should use a "Safety Thong", tied to the 'down' side of the handle, so that if the handle is snatched out of your grasp, the model will hit the ground and not fly away. On the 'down' side of the handle, the safety thong is not obtrusive at all. If tied the top, it would probably distract you.

Third, with the safety thong installed and a large screwdriver acquired, the safety thong is looped over the screwdriver, so that in case the stooge releases the plane before you arrive at the handle, the model will simply tip over in the grass, with little more damage than a broken propeller. ALWAYS walk to the handle behind the flying lines, so that if the stooge releases early, you will not get entangled. Like Brett wrote, the lines (either steel or Spectra) can cut you badly, and you don't want to "bleed out" before getting all your flights in for the day!  Steve

 

[Ken Culbertson]

Steve makes some good points, especially the safety thong.  I used to hate the thing till I found it useful in flying alone using it to anchor the handle.  It can also be a fashion statement.

I have attached pix of the two most common handle types.  The first is the cable handle that I am currently using.  This particular one came from Bob Gieseke.  The second one is the hard point Fancher handle.  This is the one in Brent Williams avatar.  You carve it to match your hand.

You can't get much progress in maneuvers if you are having to center the handle each session.  One Handle/Line set per plane is the only way to go.

As an aside to Steve, I too used that Sullivan handle to fly Rat "back in the day".  For Stunt it was the large EZ-Just.

Ken

[L0U CRANE]

All excellent advice!

A screwdriver as shown is good. Doesn't work well on a paved surface, though...

I set up the stooge and starting goodies at least 10 feet (~2.5M+) further from my intended flying center. It often helps to move back on takeoff anyway... That puts me safely beyond the stooge itself and its line. And I have no doubt about where those are: outside my fight circle, with the fuel and tools, etc.

On paving, I've found a claw hammer heavy enough to hold the handle while I carry the plane back to the stooge itself. On grass, same stooge positioning- outside the flight circle - and a bright yellow line reel makles a visible edge-of-vision marker during flight. (I also hit up a local welding shop for a piece of about 5/32 sheet iron excess to some job they'd done. It's near 2 feet sorta square. Mounted the  stooge mechanism to it. Some work to clean up a torch-cut edge. Weighs around 20 pounds - say 8 or 9 kilos.) A bit of rubber halllway matting underneath keeps things  from sliding. Some on top keeps the model from nosing in from vibration and the pull of the handle just before launch.

Must have made a couple of thousand launches with mine - no failures, no damage, no accidents. Flying alone, aware of the mess it would be if I were injured, I keep safe procedures definitely in mind!

[Dave Hull]

A followup comment to Dan's comment:  don't be tempted to "walk the lines out" perhaps untwisting things with the engine running if you are using a stooge. One slight tug and it could release. It happened recently at our field and the guy was lucky he didn't lose a finger when the plane took off while he had the lines in his hand. The natural tendency is to grab the lines to get the situation back under control. A very bad idea. Instead, just run the lines out before you start the engine and be sure to check that the lines and the stooge line aren't crossed the wrong way....

[Gary Dowler]

What can I use to hold the handle? A stake or long screwdriver?
Do I get the idea right?

This is exactly what I do. I carry a big old screwdriver with me. After my flight, I stick the screwdriver in the ground in the handle, then I pick up the airplane. I pick it up high enough to get the lines out of the grass/weeds, then keep tension on the lines as I walk the circle back towards the pit.  If the lines won’t let you set the plane right at the pit, it’s because your handle is being held by the screwdriver. set the plane down, go remove the screwdriver from the handle, then pull the airplane straight to the pit   Plane is now parked and lines are straight out towards the handle.  Now, using the technique others said to do, untwist your lines.

Gary

[Perry Rose]

I have to post pictures this way as I can't reduce the size.
Here is the easiest way to fly alone and not ruin the lines.
https://perrystoys.blogspot.com/

[Kafin Noe’man]

Thank you for your responses
After reading your comments, it got me thinking, beside the dragging that I often do, can storing method play some role here? How do you store the lines?

Here’s what I do after the last flight of the day:
- Run the lines and untwisting it from the plane back to the handle
- I disconnect the lines from the handle,
- Putting the end of the lines into the reel
- Start rolling them up going toward the plane
- Disconnect the lines from the clips on the plane
- Connect the lines back with the handle
- Clip the reel
- Put them into a ‘ziplock’ bag
- Store it in the flying tool box







What’s your take on this?


Best,
Kafin

[Perry Rose]

The last picture has the reel clip in a position to impinge on the lines. You can use foam from a flip flop shoe as a cushion between the lines and clip.
  When I'm done flying a plane I unhook from the plane and wind towards the handle. Fishing supply stores have plastic boxes that are made to store the reels we use. Without handle of course. I keep handle and lines with the plane they are assigned to. Spare lines go in the boxes.

[Ken Culbertson]

I do a variation of what Perry said.  I unclip the lines at the plane and roll them up to the handle.  I use a 5" reel and I have a wooden block that secures the lines rolled onto the reel.  I also do one more thing, I take the clip off of one line and leave it on the plane and take the other clip off of the plane and leave it on the line.  I never disconnect the lines from the handle.  I don't unwrap my lines after a flight, I do it before the flight (See Brett's post, I do it the same way).  That way I don't forget since it is part of my start up ritual and in competition, you have a thousand things on your mind - and a few in your stomach.  Knowing that your lines will be wrapped and not hooked up backwards when you get to the handle and how to spin them to unwrapped is just part of my ritual. 

One point on using the 3" reel.  The side slot where the lines exit is a great place to get a kink if you roll the lines too tightly.  That is one of the reasons I use a 5 Kite reel".  It has a hole/slot in the side that keeps the lines out of harm's way when rolling them up.  I would recommend widening that slot so that the line does not bend much and make the first couple of winds loose.

It appears from that middle picture that you have a very nice place to fly!

Ken

[Colin McRae]

A couple of notes on the use of Spectra.

If your model is trimmed for SS lines, some amount of re-trim might be necessary. Spectra is lighter and offers less drag. So, tip weight and lead-out position might need to be adjusted to adjust the amount of pull you want. Also, Spectra does stretch a bit more than SS.

I have been normally using 65# test Spectra on my 25-40 size models. On my 62 oz (pretty heavy) Vector 40 (been using Spectra to date), it has an abnormally high pull that I am working on taming down. Among other trim items, I am going to try using 018 SS lines. The thinking is the additional drag on the lines (inboard wing) will reduce the pull some. How much, if any, we will see. I realize pull is affected by many things, but I just want to see if the SS lines help.

[Ken Culbertson]

Just noticed something in your handle picture.  The lanyard needs to be tied like a noose so that it doesn't slip off easily and will tighten if pulled on.  I will see if I can find a picture somewhere.  FYI, that handle will do just fine.

Ken

[Colin McRae]

Just noticed something in your handle picture.  The lanyard needs to be tied like a noose so that it doesn't slip off easily and will tighten if pulled on.  I will see if I can find a picture somewhere.  FYI, that handle will do just fine.

Ken

Ken, I happened to have a pic handy.

[Dave Hull]

The racing guys showed me an easy modification to the standard SIG line reels that helps avoid stress on the wire near the termination. The pictures show a window on the ID (no need to open up the side slot) so that you can avoid a sharp bend. On the inside of the reel, you can install a pin to hook the eyelets over to avoid the termination creeping up into the wrap area and again, causing unnecessary stress. It is an easy pair of mods and works great. I use it for all types of lines, and for all different events.

I make the pin from some 1/16" wooden dowel--or what ever you have handy. Press it into the spoke and hit it with CyA. I cut the notch with a burr in a Dremel tool, but you could get there with some small files as well.

[Ken Culbertson]

make the pin from some 1/16" wooden dowel--or what ever you have handy. Press it into the spoke and hit it with CyA. I cut the notch with a burr in a Dremel tool, but you could get there with some small files as well.

This is a great idea.  Avoids the side slot all together.  I just got a shipment of the reels that Spectra comes on since I couldn't find any SIG and it looks like that source is gone for good as well.  Going to make them up like this.

Ken   

[Tim Wescott]

I just drill a 1/8" hole and use a #4-40 screw for the pin.  Works great.

My personal line routine is to always store with handle and lines unclipped, but in a bag together.

When I roll out my lines I clip them on the plane, unroll, then mark the spot with the line reel or (if I remembered) a flag from my tool box.

Then I walk back to the plane, moisten a folded up bit of paper towel with some rubbing alcohol, put my handle in my pocket, and clean the lines.  When I get to the bare end of the lines I clip on my handle, and double-check that the surfaces move freely, in the right direction, and there's no horrid bias.

Rolling up at the end of the day just takes unclipping the handle, rolling the lines up to the plane, unclipping, and then putting everything into its bag.

[Gary Dowler]

Thank you for your responses
After reading your comments, it got me thinking, beside the dragging that I often do, can storing method play some role here? How do you store the lines?

Here’s what I do after the last flight of the day:
- Run the lines and untwisting it from the plane back to the handle
- I disconnect the lines from the handle,
- Putting the end of the lines into the reel
- Start rolling them up going toward the plane
- Disconnect the lines from the clips on the plane
- Connect the lines back with the handle
- Clip the reel
- Put them into a ‘ziplock’ bag
- Store it in the flying tool box







What’s your take on this?


Best,
Kafin

That is essentially how Paul Walker taught me to do it. The only thing I do differently from you is I keep something soft wedged between the clip and the lines.  A piece of foam, a wad of paper towel, a piece of balsa, anything soft that wedges in there.  Roll up the lines, stuff the soft piece of whatever down onto the lines, then snap the line clip down over that to keep it in place.  Keeps the clip from imparting any bending opportunity on your lines.

Gary

[ron young]

      wow such great timing I'm just getting back in the field as well , and having a bad time with twisted lines lots of good info here
      Thanks to all
       Ron