Manned or unmanned?

[Motorman]

As soon as you put power to something it becomes the devil apparently. Are control line planes considered manned or unmanned by the FAA. (Yes I did about 15 min search). I see signs on play grounds ect restricting unmanned drones and I want to ask permission for my motorized kite (stunt ship). Maybe electric tether kite would sound better, they'll think of Ben Franklin. 

Thanks,
MM

[Dave Hull]

From the FAA's viewpoint, they have (very reluctantly) interpreted control line aircraft as NOT UAS, because the legislation that was handed down to them interpreted a UAS as an unmanned aircraft system that included a ground station with RF link. A control line airplane does not have that. As such, we are tethered flight. So to answer your question--we are neither.

Now, getting all the FAA personnel to comprehend that (without an Advisory Circular to guide them) is iffy.

From the standpoint of a park, good luck. Our club did it, but it took some serious coordination with an understanding airport manager, cooperation of the FAA tower people, and a very nice lady at the parks department. The park district in question here prohibits all model airplane activity unless approved by the park district president. I would expect that you could go on-line and read all of the relevant rules to figure out the size of the mountain you are trying to climb.

If the playground you are eyeing is school district property, then that is a different set of folks and they will have their own rules and roadblocks.

Good luck,

Dave

[Colin McRae]

I used to fly CL as a kid at local parks (many-many years ago) and no one cared. Now every park near me has a sign:

Open sunrise to sunset
No alcohol
Dogs on leash
No skate boards on sidewalks
No model planes

All designed to 'legally' protect the City or locality

Just goes to show how many lawyers we have on todays world.

[Miotch]

Just goes to show how many lawyers we have on todays world.

As long as there is greed (and an occasional real need), we will multiply !!  But, I will say that I defend frivolous cases, not prosecute them, so I stay poor, but sleep well.

How do lawyers practice birth control     With our personalities !!!!

I used to fly in the big park below my office building without hassle on occasion, but pretty sure I'd get a ticket if I tried it now.  I grew up mostly flying in vacant lots and school parking lots.

[Paul Smith]

My pilot training taught me that FAA-controlled air space begins at 500 feet AGL.  Airplanes can't go below that except when taking off and landing at an airfield.

If we stay under 500 we should not be their business.  Hence, the oft-mentioned 400' limit.

[Dave Hull]

Not quite a complete description on the airspace, Paul. You can get a better definition if you look at the Airman's Information Manual (AIM).

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim_html/chap3_section_2.html#O8C3b6ROBE

The three control line/RC fields in the LA metro area are all within a 5 mile radius of an airport. That means that the controlled airspace goes down to 0 AGL. And for us to operate in these areas, we need a Letter of Agreement with the FAA. If you look at the Drone map on the FAA website, you can see zones where they have modified the operating altitude in order to give us something. For example, at one field, we can fly up to 250' AGL. Clearly, this is a non-issue for a control line plane tethered to the ground with a maximum (centroid) altitude of approximately 77 feet. For manned flight operations, if they are outside the airport boundary and below 100 feet they are likely in the later stages of crashing....

Dave

[katana]

For manned flight operations, if they are outside the airport boundary and below 100 feet they are likely in the later stages of crashing....

Surely they would be in the pre-stage of crashing ie. still actually flying! Later stage of crashing is messy and more terminal LOL! 

[Mark Mc]

I guess I'm lucky.  I went to the local park down the road and looked at the sign on the entrance road.  It had lots of prohibited items, but model planes were not listed.  Of course, the PPG guys also launch from that park, so it may be an exception.  So I checked the city's Parks and Recs website and model planes were not listed on the list of prohibited items there either.  Maybe nobody's ever complained enough....

Of course, I've got an RC field about seven miles away and a CL field 20 minutes away, so I don't need the park.  Just looking at it as an alternative for a quick outing.

Mark

[Paul Taylor]

I was told years ago we are considered as “powered kites” and NOTAMS do not apply to CL according to the AMA.

[Steve Helmick]

I was told years ago we are considered as “powered kites” and NOTAMS do not apply to CL according to the AMA.

AMA might have said that, but it's the FAA that has the final authority. I wouldn't take AMA's word for much of anything these days, especially if doing what they said might make me have to hire or associate with a lawyer. Nope, no way.  Steve

[944_Jim]

Several years back while first working on the local Air Base, the Wing Commander visited my workspace. She saw the Cox-powered Scientific Typhoon my oldest son built.

I asked her if control line airplanes were UAS, to which she asked what "control line" meant. I pointed to the plane hanging by a thumbtack through the lead-outs on the wall over my desk.

She actually asked if it "could fly." To which I replied "Yes, Ma'am...on 35 foot lines, 3.3 second laps, for about one minute-forty seconds." She answered "if it flies, yes." She was a fighter pilot...sigh.

[Brett Buck]

As soon as you put power to something it becomes the devil apparently. Are control line planes considered manned or unmanned by the FAA. (Yes I did about 15 min search). I see signs on play grounds ect restricting unmanned drones and I want to ask permission for my motorized kite (stunt ship). Maybe electric tether kite would sound better, they'll think of Ben Franklin. 

Thanks,
MM

  Do not use the word "tethered"! There are things called tethered drones that work just like a quadcopter but with a trailing wire link instead of a radio link. These are specifically mentioned as a UAS (unmanned aerial system) in some FAA document. If you use the word "tethered" they will very likely remember that "tethered drones" are regulated and you are screwed.

   The phrase to remember is "not a UAS". A UAS (Unmanned Aerial System) consists of a aerial component with a "ground control station". This means a transmitter or other control box. So far, a control handle does not comprise a ground control station, therefore you are exempt from drone regulation.

   This was long agreed to by the people writing the rules and the AMA - CL, not being a UAS, is not regulated.  Unfortunately, it leaves a lot to interpretation by individuals, so no one can guarantee that you won't get in trouble with someone or run out of a flying site. You *can* probably win a court case, should it come to that.

      Brett