TRUTH about COTTAGE CONSEQUENCES

[steven yampolsky]

BOM folk: ARF's won't kill this event.
ARF folk: ARF's won't bring more people to this event.


Get rid of BOM if only to stop people from occusing others of cheating without foundation and from people cheating and trying to get away with it. ARFs will promote honesty. Noone will tell you that they built their Noblarf and it won't matter anyways.


ARF'ers! Go ahead and fly ARF's at the NATS if you like.
BOM'ers! keep building if you like and don't worry about ARF's.

And as a final note:

Wether we like it or not, BOM in effect or not, it will not affect our sport. Old age will. Already, PAMPA, an organization all about PROMOTING the sport, is planning to change the bylaws to PRESERVE the sport. For a good reason too: it's on the way out. I'm 35 and is the youngest competitor in my district. But even I at my age is an atavism destined to be the last national champion. All I'll have to do is show up. I'll be the only one there. Fact of the matter is, in 15 years, 70% will not be flying and the other 30% will be too old to be competitive at today's levels.

[Leonard Rennick]

Let me start by saying I’m a retread and started modeling in the mid 50’s so I’ve been around the block once or twice. I will also say I build most of my own planes; the exception is a P-Force and some F2D planes. I will always build, because I enjoy it. I believe that’s why most of us are in this hobby. To build your creation, and then the excitement on that first flight is the proof, of how well you did. It’s that instant feedback you get as the plane rises from the ground and goes into level flight, and then a wingover, inverted flight, etc. Not to mention the ata boys you get from your fellow modelers, for a great looking plane.

But I think we are all missing the big issue we have no new blood coming into the sport. I started flying again about four years ago and finally got my son involved. I forced him to build a Flight Streak trainer and he learned to fly it very well. His next planes have all been ARF’s, F2D’s to be more exact. He went straight too combat and hasn’t looked back. For him, stunt is “too boring”. The real point of this is, in the four years we have been flying every week, we are the only new blood in the club. And his isn’t exactly new, at 30 years old.

If you think I’m wrong, just look at all the pictures that are posted from contests. It’s all made up of a bunch of ARP members. You may try to point out that stunt is growing and it may well be, but it’s growing with more retreads and not youngsters. The only event I see anyone younger than 30, is in combat. So you can argue all you want about the BOM it’s not going to matter in 10 to 15 years as most of us will be gone.

In the end whether we have the BOM or not, some people will still build outstanding examples of modeling while others won’t. If the BOM goes away, then you need to fly better than your competition without the pretty points to help you out. If the BOM stays then either build better looking planes or learn to fly a better pattern. It’s not as if you are making any money at these contests, it’s a hobby not a profession.

Instead of spending time discussing the BOM, do something that keeps the hobby alive.

Leonard Rennick

[john e. holliday]

Instead of opening a new post I am going to post here.  A Friend I have in Colorado by the name of Dave Rolley sent me an E-Mail.  He stated he has no argument about the BOM in stunt as he does not fly the event.  Basically he has a story that is very much like mine.  Except my son is probably a year or two younger.   We competed in Navy Carrier,  Racing and sometimes sport combat as there was no BOM.  Yes I have a couple of planes my son did build for sport, so he can or could build if he had the time.  Now he is married and trying to raise a family.  The few times I talked him into flying stunt was with no appearance points as he was flying one of my planes.  If he would have been required to build his own planes he would never have flown the previous events at the NATS.  Dave states in his E-Mail that is why they fly F2C now.  They started in the Mouse I and Sport Goodyear events because of no BOM.  He also states that after all the repairs and rebuilds of their F2C planes that they will be building their own for next year.  But, how many of us old f***s have sons that do not have time to build, but, we now have grandchildren we can get out to fly?   But, if quite a few people want to keep an antiquated rule on the books, why do we keep argueing about it.  There is only one place that it applies and only three events at the NATS.  The Beg's already have a no BOM.  Int and Adv it is up to the contestant to be honest enough to say no appearance points as I did not build it.  I have stated somewhere else if I get beat by the appearance points, it means I need to practice more.  Have fun,  DOC Holliday

[Will Hinton]

I think Steven has said it better than anyone before and I thank him for it.!  Steven, you've put this into words that incapsulate the truth, nothing but the truth, and the whole truth!  Now maybe the rest of us will just shut up and fly!  (After I finish building, that is.) 
Blessings,
Will

[Dennis Adamisin]

Bad news Steve, I found a few people YOUNGER than you - thus you might not get to be the last name on the Walker Cup!  Otherwise your post (sadly) was spot on.

* Is it posslble to get the average age (better still a bell shaped curve) of the AGES of the PAMPA member list? 

* Is it possible to get the average age of Stunt Hanger members based on their profile info?

Unfortunatley I think the results will be even older than Steve alluded to...

[Iskandar Taib]

Int and Adv it is up to the contestant to be honest enough to say no appearance points as I did not build it.  I have stated somewhere else if I get beat by the appearance points, it means I need to practice more. 

The reason why this issue is so contentious is that the last statement above isn't necessarily true. That is, the difference between the top places at contests is less than what one gets for appearance points, and no amount of practice can overcome this. This is definitely true at the very topmost ranks of CLPA, where places are decided by a tiny fraction of the total score, and since people want to keep the building part of the sport intact, they want to keep people from using ARFs. At that level, it's not the cheap Chinese ARFs that are the threat, it's the expensive custom or expert builts.

[John Sunderland]

Uhh...we did already hire Yampolsky for big bucks didnt we? Ok, we got two Steves in the pile.....anyone else here who is not on the Geritol list? LOL

[Bill Griffith]

Another retread here.  To me, if someone goes to the effort to build their own plane they should receive some credit for that.  In what manner I don't know.  ARF's got me back into control line flying but I now have three kits in the mail.   It would be hard to imagine that when compeating at a high level, that an ARF would be highly competitive.  Could be wrong, have been before.  
Control line appears to be a dying sport and if someone young/new was interested and sought to gain information about CL from most of  (not all) the CL forums I can only imagine that they would be turned off by all the animosity that appears in the discussions.  I guess that appears because of all the grouchy old guys that are involved with CL.  I'm not knocking old guys in general because I am one, but with all the fighting and ugly politics that are displayed, it is real hard to want to hang out at these forums.  Seems as though the forums should be used to share knowledge and experiences related to CL.
Just my $.02.
Best regards,
Bill

[Circlejerk]

"Another retread here.  To me, if someone goes to the effort to build their own plane they should receive some credit for that.  In what manner I don't know.  ARF's got me back into control line flying but I now have three kits in the mail."

Bill, I think your particular situation parallels many others. ARF's get you hooked and then you migrate to "build it yourself" stuff. This is why I don't agree with Tom N's allegation that ARF's  are hurting the cottage industry kit guys. Most beginners wouldn't buy these complicated kits as first airplanes anyway. Arf's allow a beginner or retread to hone the skills with no particular attachment to the plane. When they are "good enough" then Tom and others start to see the the positive economic impact to their business. I see ARF's as good for these kit guys.

[Bill Griffith]

I agree. I have purchased two ARF's now and three kits. Not to mention engines, tanks, lines, etc.  I'm undoubtedly flying in a more aggressive manner while relearning then I would be if I had spent the time to build the plane. That is why my two ARF's make up one plane now.   I'm in the same trap as many others in finding the time to build but I'm going to build because I want to fly a plane that I built myself.  Also the selection for  the plane you fly is open to so many more when you build a kit or from scratch.  Besides the quality of the available CL ARF's leave a lot to be desired.   If I pretended that Is was good enough to compete I would build a competitive plane.
I don't think that to BOM or not to BOM would have much if any affect on people getting in to the CL sport.  I do think that the oft times hostile environment would though.

Bill

[Andrew Borgogna]

"Another retread here.  To me, if someone goes to the effort to build their own plane they should receive some credit for that.  In what manner I don't know.  ARF's got me back into control line flying but I now have three kits in the mail."

This is my story as well.  I built a couple of Brodak ARFs and then its been kits ever since.  I have two on boards right now.  The irony is I have a Top Flite Score in the box that has been in my garage for almost a year and the seal has never been broken.  As far as the cottage people I built one of Tom's kits three of Eric's kits (Eric Rule is a good friend and club mate) and if Walter gets the Spitfire out I have one of them on order.  I enjoy building but when I wanted to get back and finally learn the pattern the ARF served a purpose.  When I crashed them I really didn't feel any pain other than money.  I support our cottage kit makers and I think most of the people on this site do as well.
Andy

[Iskandar Taib]

It would be hard to imagine that when compeating at a high level, that an ARF would be highly competitive.  Could be wrong, have been before.  

From what I've read, some of these can be made to fly extremely well. One common comment I've read is that they're "better than most people can build" ("most people" not including the best, of course, but would include people like myself). The real threat isn't the run-of-the-mill inexpensive Chinese ARFs, though. Ever hear of the Yatsenko Shark? These are multiple-thousand-dollar take-apart ARF SYSTEMS that come from the Ukraine. "SYSTEMS" as including engine and propeller. Used widely at the World Champs. One just won the Walker Cup at the Nats. Another one won Advanced at the Nats. (These weren't ARFs, though, they were supplied as parts-kits.) The other threat is "custom made ARFs". That is, you get one of the top builders to build, say, an Impact for you.

For what its worth, in F2D (FAI Combat) practically all the models used are RTFs (they're not even ARFs). If you've ever seen these things, they're works of art. Beautifully built, paper wrapped foam leading edges, very light and very strong, WRAPPED JOINTS, unbelieveable for $50 shipped.

Control line appears to be a dying sport and if someone young/new was interested and sought to gain information about CL from most of  (not all) the CL forums I can only imagine that they would be turned off by all the animosity that appears in the discussions.  I guess that appears because of all the grouchy old guys that are involved with CL.  I'm not knocking old guys in general because I am one, but with all the fighting and ugly politics that are displayed, it is real hard to want to hang out at these forums.  Seems as though the forums should be used to share knowledge and experiences related to CL.

About four years ago, most of the posts were about building and covering techniques. Now its about politics. Not nearly as much fun to read any more.

[Bill Little]

This is a rules cycle year.  It (BOM) comes up everytime the rules cycle comes up.

This isn't strictly "politics" because this IS a rule for flyers who aspire to be a U.S. National Champion.  NATS age group competition (gotta do that to win the Walker Trophy) is the ONLY place where it is required!  That's what's so funny about all this.  It only affects a small portion of people in US CLPA group.  PAMPA classes which, everycontest I know of (besides the NATS) allow arfs/arcs/bought planes/stolen planes/borrowed planes, etc., etc.. 

When I get right down to the heart of the matter, I have NO CLUE as to why we get so worked up over it!   I just attended our last meet of the year.  There were plenty of ARF/ARC planes there.  Also bought and borrowed planes.  The meet did not use BOM/AP and it was widely known before hand.  I still went, had a ball, and will keep going as long as I can.  And I am really a "fundamentalist" when it comes to the BOM.  BUT, I don't see myself in the near future flying in the Walker Fly-off.........  and I did build my own plane and my son built his.

WE cause more harm than good arguing over this.

[Bill Griffith]

Ever hear of the Yatsenko Shark?
 

Now that you mention them, I have heard of them.  I was thinking of the run of the mill ARF's when I commented.

About four years ago, most of the posts were about building and covering techniques. Now its about politics. Not nearly as much fun to read any more.

That is what I was expecting when I logged on to the CL forums.  I'm going to forge ahead any way. 

Bill

[Doug Moon]

This is a rules cycle year.  It (BOM) comes up everytime the rules cycle comes up.

This isn't strictly "politics" because this IS a rule for flyers who aspire to be a U.S. National Champion.  NATS age group competition (gotta do that to win the Walker Trophy) is the ONLY place where it is required!  That's what's so funny about all this.  It only affects a small portion of people in US CLPA group.  PAMPA classes which, everycontest I know of (besides the NATS) allow arfs/arcs/bought planes/stolen planes/borrowed planes, etc., etc.. 

Bill,

That isnt so.  I will type out an example to follow.  If you go to any local contest that is using app points and BOM to get the app points and you compete against someone who did not fully construct his or her plane and still claiming points then it is affecting you and everyone else at that level, the grass roots level.  You know what they say, It rolls down hill.

The affect of using bought parts and claiming app points is not limited to the nats.  That is a large miscommunication that the BOM corwd push around all the time, "Oh the BOM only effect 40 guys once a year."  PHOOEY as Len would say.  You plunk down 300 bones for Hunt to build you a lost foam wing with full molded LE and no LE spar with over 250 hand cut and sanded pieces of wood in it by him and NOT you.  Then put that in your fuse and paint it and claim BOM at the local level to get your points.  That is breaking the rules in my mind.  That is NOT the spirit of the event.  That is NOT the intent of the BOM.  That is NOT good sportsmanship.  Also that has a drastic effect on the contest in question. 

Dont pull out the oh I still have to finish it move either.  ANYONE who has built and finished their own plane knows that the foundation for the finish starts in the building of the model.  If you purchase Hunt's expertise in skinning a wing, molded leading edges, seemingly seamless cap strips, and perfectly straight TE sheeting, you are way ahead of the finish game before you ever even think of putting a single drop of finish on it.  It took Hunt years to learn those skills and if someone else buys a product that is produced using those skills it damn sure shouldn't be getting app points.  The rule is in place so YOU build your model, not someone els build part of it for you.

It is just that simple.  People can him and haw around it all they want.  Bottom line is it happens everywhere.  I know because I build for hire as well.  That is how I know there are pver 250 hand cut and sanded pieces of wood in a lost foam geo wing.  I have built 14 of them.  I put my plane on the flight line right next to other wings tails and fuses that I have built that sit in other planes on that same flight line.

And for those out there who think I am whiny a baby who cant build and finish, I did get 17 points at the nats in 2003 and the highest awarded was 19.

[Bradley Walker]

What Doug said.

[RC Storick]

I wish I could find some Balsa seeds so I could grow my own wood!

[RC Storick]

The affect of using bought parts and claiming app points is not limited to the nats.  That is a large miscommunication that the BOM corwd push around all the time, "Oh the BOM only effect 40 guys once a year."  PHOOEY as Len would say.  You plunk down 300 bones for Hunt to build you a lost foam wing with full molded LE and no LE spar with over 250 hand cut and sanded pieces of wood in it by him and NOT you.  Then put that in your fuse and paint it and claim BOM at the local level to get your points.  That is breaking the rules in my mind.  That is NOT the spirit of the event.  That is NOT the intent of the BOM.  That is NOT good sportsmanship.  Also that has a drastic effect on the contest in question.
Dont pull out the oh I still have to finish it move either.  ANYONE who has built and finished their own plane knows that the foundation for the finish starts in the building of the model.  If you purchase Hunt's expertise in skinning a wing, molded leading edges, seemingly seamless cap strips, and perfectly straight TE sheeting, you are way ahead of the finish game before you ever even think of putting a single drop of finish on it.  It took Hunt years to learn those skills and if someone else buys a product that is produced using those skills it damn sure shouldn't be getting app points.  The rule is in place so YOU build your model, not someone els build part of it for you.
And for those out there who think I am whiny a baby who cant build and finish, I did get 17 points at the nats in 2003 and the highest awarded was 19.

And how many that you do know of in your area with this type plane? Or painted by Bill Wilson?

The one thing that got me at the NATS was imposing a $50.00 protest fee.

[Bradley Walker]

Or painted by Bill Wilson?

]

Bill does not paint planes.  He does help people paint theirs.  He does shoot clear sometimes.

I know lots of people that buy wings, parts, etc.  So do you...

[Doug Moon]

And how many that you do know of in your area with this type plane? Or painted by Bill Wilson?

The one thing that got me at the NATS was imposing a $50.00 protest fee.

Off the top of my head, in my area, 5.

How many do you know?

[Doug Moon]

I wish I could find some Balsa seeds so I could grow my own wood!

http://www.amazon.com/Balsa-Wood-Tree-Seeds-pyramidale/dp/B000UZF19U

Knock yourself out.  At $2.99 per pack of seeds it isnt that bad a deal.  But I dont think you have the South American tropical weather needed to really get the trees going.  Let us know how it turns out. 

[Bill Little]

Hi Doug,

You jumped me here, so I deserve it, I guess.  My point is that no one is EXCLUDED from FLYING except at the NATS.  THAT is the part I don't understand.  People who want to drop it usually come out withthe part that not having a BOM would raise the participation levels.  That may or MAY NOT be true.  You and I have discussed this.  I am 100% BOM in theory.  And as it originally was written over 5 decades ago.

But, I do not feel that there is any guaranteed way to insure it is strictly followed.  Once everyone bought into the 51% rule, which has never been in written form but is accepted as "Gospel", the BOM became worthless.

Yes, I know, as well as you, how many wings (and other parts!) are out there being used.  I don't know of anyone, personally, who can spend $300-$400 for a wing to use in a "practice" plane.  The people doing this practice believe inthe 51% rule, and that they are not violating the BOM.

Don't jump on me about it, I know exactly where you're coming from.  And if you read real closely, you will see that I am pointing out the folly of it all.

Bill Little <><

[Richard Grogan]

http://www.amazon.com/Balsa-Wood-Tree-Seeds-pyramidale/dp/B000UZF19U

Knock yourself out.  At $2.99 per pack of seeds it isnt that bad a deal.  But I dont think you have the South American tropical weather needed to really get the trees going.

I wonder if Houston is "tropical" enough???  

[Doug Moon]

Bill,

I was not trying to jump you when using "you" in my post.  I was simply taking it from a one on one discussion for an example.   Sorry about that.  I should have used 3rd person there.

I personally dont think all of sudden nats numbers go up with no BOM.  Some might but I dont.  Either way I will still compete and have fun with it.  I remember some contests this year with BOM and some without BOM.  I had just as much fun at both of them.

 

[Bill Little]

Thanks, Doug.  We just had our last meet of the year.  The Carolina Classic in huntersville.  We, as a club, have not used BOM/AP for a couple years.  I still go, I still have fun, and everyone else does, too!  ALL the "local" contests (three if you count the one in Georgia that Tom Dixon puts on) dropped AP.  And I go to all the contests I can.  I will build my own (and others! LOL!!) as much as possible whether we have a BOM or not.  To be honest, though, I did like it when I got points (like in the old days) for the work I did.  I am just a traditional "Modeler". 

I will live with whatever the majority decides and I will STILL have fun either way.  I do this for fun.  Now, if there was *real* MONEY involved...............

BTW:  Aaron picked up a Vector ARF from Randy at Huntersville.  We have the BC swapped out, and will be putting it all together very soon.  Can't really decide on which engine, yet, but it will make a great practice/back up plane for now!  It is a really good flying ARF.  Not even going to strip off the covering, just going to shrink it and seal the edges.

[Leo Mehl]

Again I think we are beating a dead horse here, I am really getting tired of these kind of posts on Stunt hanger. I will assume that the rules will not change. ARF's will be produced and sold the same as kits and everyone will do what they want to do. I have nothing against ARF's or kits or scratch built for they are all part of this hobby and always will be. Let's move on folks. There are a lot of thinks we could do besides argue about the builder of the model rule. And he is right about this being a dieing controline hobby. Let's face it, Radio control will be around a lot longer because it is here to stay and my observation is they are grtting the young kids and we aren't. To them it is more appealing. Roy Decamera told me in the early ninety's that when us older guy's are gone that will be it. Why we refuse to believe it I don't know. My words are enjoy this great hobby and leave the bikkering to those that have the time to do that.

[Tom Luciano]

Guy's,

   I flew my first controline model at age 5. Been in and out of the hobby since. I am 43 years old now started flying R/C in the late seventies. I've seen alot of people and kids come and go as all of you. The Unoin Model aiplane club ran a program for the local townships to get young kids involved in R/C. We were able to put a package together to get the kids up in the air for about 200.00 dollars. Arf plane, engine, and radio. We had building sessions were all could participate. The program was a huge success we brought somewhere between 20-30 boys with their dads. That was 3 years ago, every kid soloed and had a wonderful experience. Today we have one of those kids left. The bottom line is really quite simple, kids today have so many options whether its youth sports, computers, video games etc. that they just don't stay on one thing that long. ARF's do help introduce people to our hobby without a doubt. As you progress through the process and want more out of the hobby then you build etc. There's no better satisfaction out there then completing your own model. With the way we work today to survive so many people cannot commit so much time. I myself feel horrible that my oldest son at age 10 has not held a handle in his hand or radio. With him He loves to go to his granpa's house to see a basement full of planes controline and R/C. In my home, school first then sports: football, travel basketball, rec. baseball, travel baseball. there's no such thing as pick up games anymore. when we have a open sunday I would love to take him out to go "flying"  But it only happens a few times a year. Bottom line I love the "HOBBY" and love the people I've met. I love this site for, when you guy's talk about all the fun you had and have. this political crap sucks. Let's not take all this so seriously and have fun competing and making great friendships. When you come down to it, this hobby is 80% bullsh*ting ,15% building, 5% flying.

My Two Cents
Regards,
Tom

[Bradley Walker]

When you come down to it, this hobby is 80% bullsh*ting ,15% building, 5% flying.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Word Brutha!!!  (that means "right on")

At least!!!!  You are right.  Stunt people do take themselves so seriously.  Too seriously!!!

[Iskandar Taib]

I wish I could find some Balsa seeds so I could grow my own wood!

http://www.banana-tree.com/Product_Detail~category~13.0~Product_ID~593.cfm

You'll have to wait until "late November", though...

[Iskandar Taib]

]

Bill does not paint planes.  He does help people paint theirs.  He does shoot clear sometimes.

I know lots of people that buy wings, parts, etc.  So do you...

I've heard it said that finishing isn't part of BOM. You can pay for a custom paint job, as long as you BUILT the airplane, you can still get appearance points.

[Leo Mehl]

BOM folk: ARF's won't kill this event.
ARF folk: ARF's won't bring more people to this event.


Get rid of BOM if only to stop people from occusing others of cheating without foundation and from people cheating and trying to get away with it. ARFs will promote honesty. Noone will tell you that they built their Noblarf and it won't matter anyways.


ARF'ers! Go ahead and fly ARF's at the NATS if you like.
BOM'ers! keep building if you like and don't worry about ARF's.

And as a final note:

Wether we like it or not, BOM in effect or not, it will not affect our sport. Old age will. Already, PAMPA, an organization all about PROMOTING the sport, is planning to change the bylaws to PRESERVE the sport. For a good reason too: it's on the way out. I'm 35 and is the youngest competitor in my district. But even I at my age is an atavism destined to be the last national champion. All I'll have to do is show up. I'll be the only one there. Fact of the matter is, in 15 years, 70% will not be flying and the other 30% will be too old to be competitive at today's levels.

You are older and wiser than you think. You did this without a hammer. The old guy!

[Bradley Walker]

Get rid of BOM if only to stop people from occusing others of cheating without foundation and from people cheating and trying to get away with it. ARFs will promote honesty.

I think this single sentence describes why the only solution that the Dallas Crew was able to draw from all this was the BOM needs to go.

Everything else is just "half pregnant".

[dale gleason]

I'm happy to learn there is a new model club in town, the "Dallas Crew". I regret they are not pro B.O.M., but I respect their right to think as they do. I think that modelers of good will, with good intent, the stunt community, if you will, is drawing very close to forging an enforceable BOM that we can all live with, a rule that will bring people closer together, not divide. I'm sure the "Dallas Crew" will participate in that effort.
The Dallas Model Aircraft Association, (DMAA) of which I am a member, has about a hundred members, spread all around the country. I'm definitely pro- BOM, as are some other members, and some are not, but they are communicating with their respective CLCB members, and when the votes are in, I'm confident we will have, as stated earlier, a workable BOM. We'll all be happy when that time comes, won't we?
DMAA 's members work extremely hard to sponsor quality contests, and although not perfect, the recent F2C Team Trials was exemplary. The continuance of the Southwestern Championships, with beginnings dating to 1953, is another. (There are four more.) The 25K dollars the club raised and put into the flying circles at Hobby Park in recent years has brought our facility up to a standard where such events can be accommodated; " surely our cup runneth over!".
Another "catch phrase" comes to mind as I think of our DMAA. There is a "silent majority" and they are the ones who keep the wheels turning at DMAA, (and other areas of our hobby), they don't say much, their actions speaks much louder than any words, they get the job done.
"And that's all I'm going to say about that." Ol' Dad
 

[Bradley Walker]

I'm happy to learn there is a new model club in town, the "Dallas Crew". I regret they are not pro B.O.M., but I respect their right to think as they do. 

The Dallas Crew refers to the guys I fly with, and that's all.  We have called ourselves that off and on again for some time.  We are not a "club", we have no formal name, charter, bylaws, or political affiliation, we don't take votes, have meetings, a newsletter, or have a President, etc.    We are just some guys who fly together at Hobby Park in Dallas.  I think one of the guys even had Dallas Crew on one of his planes about 4 years ago. 

I am in no way am affiliating the guys I refer to as the Dallas Crew with the DMAA or vice versa.