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Author Topic: Trimming your model for flight characteristics or personal style?  (Read 4122 times)

Offline Peter Nevai

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There has been a plethora of suggestions, articles, charts and guides about how should one trim out their model. I wonder in earnest, how much is applicable to flight basics and how much is to tailor the model to the individual pilots preference. Taking note that one size does not fit all.
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Offline Dave_Trible

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Re: Trimming your model for flight characteristics or personal style?
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2017, 02:29:39 PM »
The answer is YES.

Dave





Addendum;  I would think about it more in terms of major trim, that is trimming AWAY bad faults and characteristics, then minor,  trimming IN certain looks or feels to the pilots liking.  The later is not really possible until you deal with the former.
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Offline RknRusty

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Re: Trimming your model for flight characteristics or personal style?
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2017, 02:37:00 PM »
Sorry, Peter, but you're probably going to get an inrush of answers about the advantages of training your reactions while starting with a plane having as close to mathematically perfect aerodynamics as possible, and then learning and adjusting your preferences from there. So I opted to comment on your sig.
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Offline Peter Nevai

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Re: Trimming your model for flight characteristics or personal style?
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2017, 02:54:59 PM »
Sorry, Peter, but you're probably going to get an inrush of answers about the advantages of training your reactions while starting with a plane having as close to mathematically perfect aerodynamics as possible, and then learning and adjusting your preferences from there. So I opted to comment on your sig.Second words spoken: "If we'd gone to the moon first, we'd have a lot better idea."

Absolutely, and that is the response I wish to elicit. Much can be said about trimming your model but until now, there has been no delineation, between what people do to accommodate their own flying style and what differentiates the core basics in trimming a stunt model. A unbiased, non personal template from where to start.
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Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Trimming your model for flight characteristics or personal style?
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2017, 03:08:45 PM »
First let me simply say that Dave is absolutely right and I agree with him completely.

I would add however that unless you're an experienced flier you will probably have great difficulty getting past those early adjustments that just get the airplane flying straight without trying to come in at you or fly with the outboard wing flying high or low.

There are charts listing the methodology of trimming that are very good, the best of which may be the one written by many time champion of the US and World Paul Walker.  Most folks seem to think it's the best and I agree with them.  I believe it's available through PAMPA.

Once again however, unless you are experienced you likely won't know when good is good and bad is terrible.
Given that, my main suggestion is to seek out an individual who has a lot of experience at flying stunt and at competing.  He will greatly accelerate your learning curve and save you a lot of expense in equipment and airplanes.

For an instance my younger brother decided to start flying stunt as a rank beginner a number of years ago and went form a Beginner in competition to mid level expert scores in less than two years.  Yes he worked very hard at it but He also had the advantage of learning to fly and then learning the pattern with my airplanes that were already very well trimmed.  He did of course build some of his own airplanes and when it was time to trim them he already knew what an airplane should fly like and how it should respond.  When we started trimming his own airplanes he knew what to expect so it was a very short learning curve to find those trim items that would get him to those responses that he already was familiar with.

That said, you may still in time develop personal preferences in how the airplane responds etc. but you won't have to guess at what's right or wrong and what it is that you are trying to achieve.

Also, You will find that one of the greatest things about our chosen hobby/sport is that those Expert level flyers that you might approach will undoubtedly shower you with help, advice, and in some cases even physical help in trimming your airplane and the best methods of flying the maneuvers.

Where I fly it's not even unusual to find yourself the owner of trimmed equipment to show you where you want to be.

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Offline Dane Martin

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Re: Trimming your model for flight characteristics or personal style?
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2017, 03:12:20 PM »
I like to copy someone who knows what they're doing. Then I learn to fly that with some degree of competency. Then I can say, ok "this" needs to be changed. But usually, if that someone won the Nats many times, there's not much I would change anyway.

Offline Peter Nevai

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Re: Trimming your model for flight characteristics or personal style?
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2017, 03:40:43 PM »
Let me start off with "Not everyone is Paul Walker, or Brett Buck, or (Insert your favorite stunt hero here) no besmirchment intended . Flying stunt is as much an subjective activity as there is. We have had arguments over whether you should or can hold your hand parallel to flight while inverted as well as a whole host of other things. What works for one, does not necessarily work for everyone. I reject the "One size fits all" methodology. Sure there are bad habits that should be avoided, but then again those bad habits have been used and demonstrated to be effective for individuals that others would shun. What I am looking for and what most new comers to this hobby want as they progress in their skills is a "Best Use" approach that ends with "Tailor to your own taste" suggestion.

While some may wish to mimic the strategy that the makers and shakers in stunt use, they will never be that individual even if they share the identical DNA. In many worldly activities it is known that there is never a single way to get to a desired goal. But if you stand back from your personal biases and preferences you can distill a common et of rules that anyone can benefit from. This post was to work towards a goal of stripping out the "What works for me" to What can work for all.
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Trimming your model for flight characteristics or personal style?
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2017, 12:19:45 AM »
There is an element of personal preference, but the range is *far smaller* than most people imagine. I am not saying that this is what is going on here, but far too often, "personal preference" is used as a cover for not trying to improve, not knowing what to do, or far more often, not knowing there is anything wrong in the first place. 

     The problem is, for most people, is that they are learning everything in parallel - how to build, how to trim, how to set up engines, how to set up lines/handles, and how to fly, all at once. You can't really do anything independently without already knowing to fly, and exactly what to look for in trim and how the engine needs to run. It's so difficult to have even moderate success, as soon as someone hits on a combination that seems to work, they decide that they have "made it" and then are extremely hesitant to change, even in the face of obvious issues or outside suggestions.

    Take, as one example of many possible, the 15 degree pistol grip/"relaxed grip" handle.  You stand out in the field, hold your arm out, relax your wrist, and sure enough, your wrist takes a forward tilt of around 15 degrees. You do this in the first few weeks of flying, get used to it, have some success, and anything else seems unnatural and in some cases, dangerous. Some wise guy on the internet says, hey, maybe you should try to work your way out of it because it's very limiting. This seems crazy, and you decide on some level that "that's great for you, maybe, but my wrist is just built differently". Well, unless you stuck it in a wood chipper and then had surgery down at the mall at the local veterinarian's office, *it's not*. Eventually, you may or may not realize that you are having to modify your airplane trim, offset the flap/elevator, offset your line connections at the handle, because "all my airplanes turn faster insides than outsides". It may have served mostly OK for years, but at some point, it will start hurting you, and you then have many years or decades of bad habits to either correct, or quit advancing.
 
  Point being, you may never even know that there is a problem or possible improvement because the same problem is preventing you from learning to fly well enough to know the difference.

   Multiply that by 500 little things that really matter that many people do not know about or do not recognize, and I think you see the problem. They guys you see finishing high at big contests year after year *mostly* went through the same thing, found all this stuff either by thinking it through carefully, or more commonly, decades of trial and error. Something might not seem wrong to any particular individual because they don't know any better or don't know what is wrong or how to fix it-  and that happens ALL THE TIME, to guys are vastly experienced and highly skilled.

     Most of what I (and others) offer as suggestions is based on having gone through all this with obsessive zeal for decades, and is based on trying to jump people out of or across these "traps" they find themselves in. The idea is to, for all intents and purposes, have someone like Paul, David, or Ted figure out if you have a problem or problems, help you fix them (either live or remotely), because you don't have any idea that there is something you need to change or even that you are in a trap.

   Brett     

   

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Trimming your model for flight characteristics or personal style?
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2017, 12:34:38 AM »
Absolutely, and that is the response I wish to elicit. Much can be said about trimming your model but until now, there has been no delineation, between what people do to accommodate their own flying style and what differentiates the core basics in trimming a stunt model. A unbiased, non personal template from where to start.

   I would note that *virtually everything* I (or Ted, whose every word I have studied in detail) have ever suggested, and most of the good quality advice others with VAST experience like Randy provide, is geared to generating a correct baseline system, and has absolutely nothing to do with accommodating personal preference. As noted above, I am on the edge of believing that personal preference is irrelevant or nonexistent, and in any case it is an infinitesimally small range.

   That's important because most people -including many top NATs and WC finishers - have never come within a country mile of even mastering the "core basics". I can think of individuals who might have/probably would have, won multiple NATs championships if they had flown with even a decent baseline system that was free of obvious problems. Probably NOT who you think, either.

     Brett

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Trimming your model for flight characteristics or personal style?
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2017, 04:05:29 AM »
Brett basically said it all, and I believe he is absolutely correct.

I would only mention that I believe most "tailor to your own needs" usually simply means adopting ways to live with bad habits.  It can be done but I believe it's always more difficult in the long run.

I'll give you a small "for instance" based on something you mentioned above.  You said that you've had discussions about whether or not you can or should hold your hand parallel to the flight path when inverted.  The answer is yes with a lot of work you can.  However it's much harder to hold a properly responsive airplane steady in level flight that way.  I learned to fly inverted in 1952, and the accepted method where I grew up in Kansas City was to turn your hand sideways parallel to the flight path to lessen the confusion involved in the reversal of controls.   Many years later as an Expert level stunt flyer and still struggling to fly a really good level flight path inverted in came to me why...when inverted with the handle sideways if the airplane gets slightly ahead of or behind the handle position control input occurs automatically due to the relative position of the bellcrank being in the same plane as the handle, hence any variation in the lateral position of the handle relative to the bellcrank causes movement of the bellcrank and subsequent rise or fall of the airplane due to those control inputs.  If the handle is kept vertical inverted those inputs do not occur.
The only way to overcome that problem with the handle in the same plane as the bellcrank, is to very carefully maintain nearly perfect alignment between the airplane and the handle while inverted.  That's very difficult (but possible) to accomplish in good conditions.  However in even slightly turbulent conditions it's impossible!
Inverted flight is a scored maneuver and the most major error to be made is to move up and down during that maneuver...in fact there really is very little possibility for error in any other way.  Consequently it's very easy to drop a lot of points by constantly wavering up and down.  In top level competition the difference between 1st and 5th is often less than ten points, and the difference between 1st and 2nd is often 1 or 2 points.  Drop 8 to 10 points on inverted flight by wavering up and down and you will never be in the top eschelon... this is just one small example of an error at the handle that a lot of folks are probably not even aware of...trust me there are dozens more!
Bottom line...why make things harder for yourself by trying to adapt to something that is intrinsically more difficult. 

Precision Stunt flying is extremely difficult by any means you tend to use, however it's much less difficult when you adapt tried and true methods of doing it.  Almost anything you will endeavor to accomplish will be.

Randy Cuberly
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Offline Fredvon4

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Re: Trimming your model for flight characteristics or personal style?
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2017, 08:56:59 AM »
Randy

Thank you for that example

I am one of the unfortunate CL guys with little to no local help.
Means that there is a lot I have to read, absorb, remember, and attempt to try at the field. All while not really having seen a LOT of what Right looks like

I have seen many a discussion on the handle vertical vs horizontal in inverted flight.  I bought into an assertion that horizontal was preferred; because if you needed to go back UP you stopped rotating with the craft, and as it led your handle the increasing tension on the down line caused the craft to naturally climb UP

You Example is the first time I see, read,  and understand why Vertical handle orientation is important. Thank you
Yet another bad habit to correct.....grin  cuz there are so many

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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Trimming your model for flight characteristics or personal style?
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2017, 10:51:23 AM »
I still sit here thinking about an article Windy wrote about starting to trim a new plane.   First and fore most was the plane had to be straight and light.   Next was the engine/motor run.  Yes the trimming charts help, but an engine that is unreliable is not going to help any thing.  Also with these trimming charts you need some one to observe the plane while flying and tell you what is happening.   Now if only I would heed their advice.   I have Jim Lee and Dave Trible for advice, but I really don't fly enough.   One other thing is some planes I like to fly a little faster than others, but I try to get them all to fly the way I want.  A plane that surprised me is how well the Super Ringmaster flies.  Had to change power plants on that one.

I should also add I don't like flying the same plane time after time.   I have several planes I take with me.  While flying with John Bender I was losing concentration on about the 4th flight of the plane.   Parked it and pulled out the old Bi-Slob.   We each took a turn on it.  Almost flew the tank dry with ever turning a lap.  Put up a flight on the stunt plane and was told that was the best flight of the day. A couple more flights and we called it a day. 
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Trimming your model for flight characteristics or personal style?
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2017, 02:15:06 PM »
Absolutely, and that is the response I wish to elicit. Much can be said about trimming your model but until now, there has been no delineation, between what people do to accommodate their own flying style and what differentiates the core basics in trimming a stunt model. A unbiased, non personal template from where to start.

Actually, if you read Paul Walker's trim articles, he goes into just that -- there is a basic set of trimming targets that pretty much anyone needs to meet, and then he tells you how you can customize your plane's response from there.

But the boundary between "core basics" and accommodating one's own flying style isn't at all firm, nor is the amount of weight people put on trimming.  Some folks just bench-trim a plane and learn to live with its quirks, other people spend as much time trimming the plane as they do learning to fly it.

Someone who was there can confirm this for me, but I understand that back when Jimmy Cassales was active, and regularly swapping Nats wins with Paul Walker, he was a "bench trim and then practice relentlessly" sort, while Paul was, and still is, a "trim the plane so it flies itself, and then put your flying skill on top of that".  If that's true, then either argument has merit.  (Although I was told that Cassales tended to win more when wind wasn't an issue, and Paul's "they fly themselves" philosophy got him more wins in the wind).
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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Trimming your model for flight characteristics or personal style?
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2017, 03:55:02 PM »
I've had PW and PP take a flight on various planes of mine. Nobody complained about responsiveness, but PP objected to excessive line tension. I tried to fly a provile (sic) that Tim apparently had trimmed to his liking, and it was so unresponsive that I dinged it at the bottom of something early in the pattern. I still don't know how Tim can fly as well as he does with that sort of setup. I'd say that responsiveness and line tension are the major points in trim that are really up to the individual, while everything else is mandatory for everybody. Well, there is that slanted handle crap, but I hope we can avoid that one for this discussion.  ;D Steve
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Trimming your model for flight characteristics or personal style?
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2017, 10:11:48 PM »
Trim examples from this weekend.

   By the way, one thing I told my group at the Chumley Memorial Clinic, criticism or comment sof how your pattern looks or how your airplane flies IS NOT A REFLECTION OF YOUR WORTH AS A HUMAN BEING. Plenty of people take it that way, fortunately, we don't have a lot of those guys around here. I referred to someone's square 8 yesterday as "catastrophic", that doesn't mean that the pilot is a bad person!

   Airplane #1:  Sound design, good apparent craftsmanship, and finish, competent and powerful tuned pipe engine (although the bearing sounded like they had been running sand through the engine). Pilot is on the border between very good advanced and new Expert class pilot. He could certainly get through decent patterns with it, but with repeated odd issues like high bottoms on round maneuvers, unexpected and incorrect direction changes, that sort of thing.

      He noticed that the tension was "light" at the tops of the loops. I flew it and had it set intentionally a little slow to better expose the trim issues. If you are flying 4.8 second laps on a 65-ish ounce airplane, you can have massive trim issues and still get through with it pulling your arm off. Sure enough, the tension got very light at the tops of maneuvers, particularly the inside round loops, more so than the outside. It was slightly better as far as hinging goes in the square corners, but with wild yawing. The airplane was *very sensitive* even with very slow controls. Flying level in nearly dead calm, the outboard wheel was about 1/2 inch or so ahead of the inboard wheel, but the wings were level. Excess tip weight caused very large hitches in the intersections of the round 8s, but kept it alive by vectoring the thrust out. Revealingly, the square corners did not hinge nearly as much as I expected, and there was wild yawing motion instead. Overhead 8, there  was *no* tension whatsoever in the intersection, and then it came on and pulled more-or-less OK at the ends of the loops with the airplane rolled  out.

   Diagnosis, just from flying it - inboard rudder, leadouts too far forward, way too much tio weight (which I expect was ALL that had kept the airplane alive to this point), and CG too far aft. The pilot had correctly diagnosed lack of line tension, and added mucho tipweight to compensate for the other issues, giving him just enough line tension to keep it from chasing him around. A 65-ish ounce airplane with a 60-sized tuned pipe engine with excess tip weight should just about pull you over even at 5.4 second laps, and with +-15 degrees control motion for full handle deflection should be very sluggish. Instead the tension was light to nonexistent, and the airplane was so sensitive that even I couldn't reliably keep it going straight in the straight sections and the control loads were tiny. I bailed on the hourglass, I got to the point of the turn and there was nothing so I just flew out of it. The lack of hinging in squares despite clearly excessive tip weight indicated that the airplane was yawing in on every corner, causing the outboard wing to swing forward in the corner, and cause an inboard roll torque that was compensating for the excess tip weight causing an outboard roll torque. Same thing did not happen on rounds due to lack of tension in level flight, so it hinged severely. That indicated that the leadouts were too far aft for the amount of aerodynamic yaw offset.

   Checked the fin/rudder, and sure enough, the fin was inset a bit (even though it was, very unfortunately, airfoiled on one side, making it very difficult to see or measure the alignment). The reasoning was that it had massively too much tip weight, apparent in round loops, but not in level flight and much less than expected in corners. This suggested that the airplane was yawed in, and sure enough, the relative position of the wheels confirmed it. The leadouts being too far forward gave it overall weak line tension, and just encouraged the inboard yaw angle. In round maneuvers the airplane hinged at the bottoms of the loops, but under low load factors at the tops of the loops, the roll angle was reduced, the reduced lift reduced the magnitude of the vector component of lift along the line axis, so it no longer assisted much in compensating for the inboard yaw.


I asked for about 1/16" of offset in the movable rudder and about 1/4" of aft leadout movement. In this case, 1/16" of rudder motion would have suggest a large aft movement of the leadouts, so, effectively,  1/4" aft was more like moving them forward relative to the other change. That is recommended only for experienced fliers, one change at a time is a lot easier to keep track of.

   I flew the airplane again, speeding it up a bit to make sure I could get through safely. The changes made the line tension somewhat better and with reduced variation, with the wheels more-or-less lined up all the time. The hinging in the rounds was increased slightly, the outboard wing hung down a bit upright and inverted, and the airplane began to hinge substantially in the corners.

    What I suggested was for the pilot to move the rudder some more, move the leadouts back even further, and add noseweight. What I expect to happen is that the outboard wing will begin to hang down more in level flight, the hinging in the corners will increase dramatically, and the wild yawing will abate. The line tension should go up a large amount. At that point, THEN, start removing tip weight to bring the hinging under control.

    I didn't suggest it, but maybe it would be a good idea, to cut the fin/rudder off the airplane, make a new one that is symmetrical and mostly flat, and then align it with extreme care (long rulers or rods on either side of the fin that extend up to the nose) to be *exactly* straight ahead. Then start with about 1/16 or rudder offset, LINEII leadout position, and start over from there.

    In questioning, and apropos of this thread, the pilot knew something was wrong with the line tension, but not where to look for the cause. He did some trim adjustments (tip weight and speed) to make it safe to fly. But he did not have the experience to recognize the yaw problem, caused by an underlying alignment issue. Of course, with the line tension varying all over the place, and wildly rolling and yawing at every control movement, plus the sensitivity, would have made attempting competitive patterns an exercise in frustration.  He could not see or recognize the yaw angle. With nothing to compare to, the sensitivity issue would have been invisible, maybe that's the way it is supposed to fly.

   Paul's excellent trim flowcharts aren't going to solve the issue if you can't see or don't know how to diagnose the inboard yaw angle in level flight, or that that the line tension was abnormally light. Of course, Paul's fin would have been on straight to begin with.

   The formulaic approach with "LINEII" to set the leadouts would have pretty immediately discovered the fin misalignment, when it took lots of forward movement of the leadouts to remove the yaw reactions in the corners, which were far more obvious. Careful inspection would have done the same. One could easily calculate that the line tension should be around 10 lbs in level flight in the absence of aerodynamic "enhancements"/manufactured line tension, about 7.5 lbs at the tops of round loops (instead of nearly zero), and around 6 lbs instead of 10 overhead (instead of absolutely zero). The pilot made a similar assessment based on feel.

   In any case, stuff like inboard fin misalignment, along with similar issues with fuselage or tail skew, are potential killers. There may have been some good fortune in this case that the airplane survived the first flew flights, or maybe the pilot started with greatly excessive tipweight to hedge his bets - I didn't ask.

    I note that he DID NOT attempt to excuse or otherwise claim this was his "personal preference", he knew for sure that something was wrong but not how to go about it, hence, this situation:

Quote
I am not saying that this is what is going on here, but far too often, "personal preference" is used as a cover for not trying to improve, not knowing what to do, or far more often, not knowing there is anything wrong in the first place. 

   Brett


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Re: Trimming your model for flight characteristics or personal style?
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2017, 10:55:56 PM »
Trim example #2:

Dennis already outed himself on this one, so it was Dennis Nunes. During the judged flights, Dennis looked *really good* and certainly not like the usual intermediate flier. I am not to be confused with Santa Claus as a judge - I am not overly harsh, but I do use the entire scoring range. For the first group of maneuvers, I was giving pretty consistent low-mid 30s scores, which if it continued, would end up in the low-mid 500 point range. Last time I judged David, I think he ended up with a score in the 560-570 range, for example.  This dropped off as the flight when on, and the square maneuvers degenerated as the sizes got a bit out  of hand. It was very smooth.

  The airplane is an original design that looks a lot like a Profile Force 540, except with (big) flaps and a bigger stabilizer, and an LA46. Looked like a pretty neat job and no obvious construction issues. The leadouts were WAY far aft compared to the CG. and the CG was pretty far forward. Control speed was normal, maybe a bit on the fast side but nothing unreasonable.

   I flew the airplane, and the pull in level flight was tremendous, at least 50% more than my airplane (and 5x the much larger and more powerful airplane in example #1). The speed was not unreasonable, but the yaw angle was *extreme*, with the outboard wheel at least an inch behind the inboard wheel, maybe more. OK, I flew the B-17, I should be able to fly a pretty small profile plane with a 46LA. Then I tried one inside loop, and as mentioned, I yelled out WOW, it took TREMENDOUS torque to get it to turn even a very large, oversize, round loop radius. I tried outside to test the difference, and, slightly better but still absolutely incredible compared to almost any other airplane. I tried a few hard corners, that loops like my typical round loop radius, but no go, I couldn't move the controls enough and was afraid of getting in the "coffin corner" in any more complex maneuvers.  I gave up and flew out the tank - which, revealingly, failed to cut off cleanly, just cycled back and forth for lap after lap.

   Note that this is an airplane that Dennis managed to fly to a pretty convincing and competitive-in-advanced Pattern shortly earlier.

    The basic issue was that the airplane was radically nose-heavy, and the leadouts were very far aft. The outrageous line tension came from the large yaw angle. The extreme control loads were partly the result of the handle offset (which wasn't way of bounds) and the extremely heavy line tension and a far-forward CG. I asked Dennis to put an ounce on the tail (normally a very large change even on conventional models) and flew it again. It was slightly better, but still had extreme control loads. I could, with extreme hand movement, manage something like a very soft corner, and I ventured a few round 8s. One of the inside bottoms was about 4.5 feet, but that was not my intention, that's just where it came out, because I was near the limit on cornering - in an oversize round 8.

    Right now it needs all the line tension it can get, because the control loads are still astronomical, and without lots of "manufactured" line tension, the airplane would hit the Netzeband Wall (and it was feeling pretty close to that even with 15-18 lbs of line tension - again, on a medium-size profile with a 46LA). The recommendation was to continue adding weight to the tail 1/2 ounce at a time until it starts getting squirrelly, then take the last change out. Then, start moving the leadouts forward. It might also turn out that it needs either less flap movement WRT the elevator, since the flaps are very large for this size/weight airplane.

   Note that the very poor engine cutoff was also because of the yaw angle/leadouts too far aft compared to the CG. The tank is rectangular in plan form. The yaw angle causes the fuel want to run to the front of the tank. As it gets low, there's still a bit of fuel at the front of the tank when the pickup starts to suck air. This makes the engine lean out a bit as you would expect - which accelerates the airplane forward, causing the fuel to slosh to the back of the tank, give it clear fuel with no bubbles. Then it riches up and slows down, fuel sloshes to the front, more bubbles, accelerates again, fuel sloshes to the rear, slows down again, over and over. I suggest that Dennis add a 1/4" thick shim behind the rear tank mount to force the fuel to stay at the rear of the tank all the time.

   This was an example of a relatively inexperienced pilot accommodating his airplane's limitations - very well, in fact - without having any idea that there was anything wrong. It explained his very nice, smooth, round maneuvers, and the degeneration in scores when it got to the squares and more complex maneuvers. You could have chalked it up to piloting problems since thats what Intermediate fliers do - easy maneuvers get pretty good scores, and the "hard" ones, the scores drop off. Well, in this case, Dennis was flying really well, better than I would have done without a lot of practice and a bunch of fudging, because the airplane is completely incapable of competent, much less good, cornering.

     Brett

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Trimming your model for flight characteristics or personal style?
« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2017, 10:24:36 AM »
    By the way, I think it is clear to me why "stunt lore" is dominated by generally absurd and ritualistic nonsense about both airplane design and setup, engines, and trim. And also why people have an unfortunate tendency to treat successful stunt fliers likes some sort of mystical figures with supernatural skills and turn them into heroes and create cults of personality around them. It's because the difficulty of getting them set up to fly properly without already knowing what to do is so extreme that anyone who manages it must be considered some sort of superman.

     I wonder how many people became stunt champions by luck - happened to stumble across someone to help them get the airplane working at just the right time, or even less likely, happened to arrive at a workable system by random chance on their own. All the coaching in the world will not help anyone if their airplane is incapable of flying the maneuvers, and from what I have seen over the years, after flying *many* other people's airplanes from rank beginners to NATs champions, an incredible number of people, the vast, vast majority, are dealing with crippling performance or handling limitations that would make it almost impossible for them to get much better than they are without changing it.

   And the chances of following the ancient ad-hoc rituals of trimming and engine setup,  unless you already know how to fly or have someone to tell you what to do, are virtually zero. Back in the good old days, people would built the airplane, roll up an o;d Ambroid tube and glue it into the wingtip, finish the airplane, and go fly it The extent of the advice people gave was "if it's too sensitive, add noseweight, good luck and happy flying!" Airplane doesn't fly well, for whatever reason (warp, misalignment, or just an random set of varations that just didn't happen to work together), build another one and hope for the best.

   Every time I do one of these stunt clinics, I come back even more firmly convinced that "personal preference" is almost entirely a function of people having learned to deal with a particular set of problems, and are either afraid or do not know how to or even if they need to change. As I mentioned above, after years, they stumble on something more-or-less works, and then they are terrified to change it for fear of losing the special magic. And it does seem like magic instead of relatively simple engineering and physics (very few things in stunt require more knowledge than you could get in junior-high science, and there are *plenty* of very intelligent and knowledgable people flying stunt).

     I have been ripped many times over the years for daring to suggest that most of stunt trim and engine issues can be done with very simple calculations and very straightforward basic principles, without having to have some guru fly the airplane, bless the engines with their mystical head gasket magic, etc. I started the same way. My Fox ran faster upright than inverted, and I figured it was because I hadn't set the tank exactly on the centerline of the spraybar, so I kept measuring it and measuring it, it looked fine, and for a while I was completely confounded.

    Al Rabe's articles, in particular, got me out of this mode of thinking, if it doesn't work, it's because of some principle, and the solution is to shim the tank, whether or not the tank is lined up with the spraybar. Al's articles, the Mustunt in particular (where Al endeavored to solve exactly the problem I am discussing here by providing all the jigs, templates, recommended settings, and a more-or-less complete explanation of why they all did what they did), transformed my thinking*.

  Yes, a real expert might have some personal preferences that they will adjust to suit themselves. But I have flown *many* Nationals competitors airplanes, and many of them would benefit from forgetting what they "know", and doing basic bench trim and never change it. I have a bunch of pictures of airplanes in flight that Will Hubin took at the 2003 TT - and lets just say, from a single still photograph taken in level flight, it's clear that at least some of the top fliers are guys who stumbled upon a vaguely useable system and hung on to it like grim death.

     Brett

   *Then, later, when I took it much further by taking advantage of the 40 years of progress, he ripped me a new one, said it was all nonsense, and accused both Ted and I of doing it for self-aggrandizement.   

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Trimming your model for flight characteristics or personal style?
« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2017, 12:11:25 PM »
What Brett said.

It's unlikely to happen but it would do the stunt community a lot of good if Brett were to be able to volunteer to write the monthly column in Model Aviation (or SN, although the reduced publication frequency might lessen the value).  It is understandably unlikely in that I know full well the demands his job and some personal issues make on his time available for time consuming outside activities.  In the meantime what he does share online should carry a great deal of weight.

Although Brett has kindly said nice things about our long term association and my impact (sorry PW) on his personal stunt history I've often said and will say here again that he is by far the smartest guy I've ever met "with respect to objects in motion"...a description entirely appropriate to stunt airplanes as well as satellites, etc.  I say that recognizing full well that we've been blessed by a lot of very bright guys in our stunt community. (After giving the last couple sentences a reread I realized how many similarities must exist between CL stunt and (Brett's) satellites; both seeking a performance balance between mass/weight, velocity and a restraint mechanism combined with a need/desire to periodically redirect what mother nature demands of those velocity restraint systems!)

Yes, Brett's a "straight" talker--but one with a heart of gold.  I encourage stunt fliers with an urge to improve to listen carefully when he shares his opinions.

I used to be pretty good at this stuff but learned early on to pay close attention to my "protege" so I could improve!

Ted

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Trimming your model for flight characteristics or personal style?
« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2017, 06:51:30 PM »
On well trimmed airplanes:  I thought I had a pretty good idea of what it felt like to fly a nicely trimmed airplane.  Then I got my hands on a 28-year-old Paul Walker plane.  Wow.

On Paul's trim chart, and seeing what's going on with the plane:  Even if you can't fly that way all the time (I tried, and racked up my shoulder), flying like Paul sometimes will tell you a lot.  Hold your hand up, sight over the tip of your handle to the airplane, and watch.  You'll learn a lot about wing level and yaw (assuming your wheels are in line).

Having some expert fly your plane for you is a Good Thing, if it can happen -- but we can't all trek to an expert.
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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Trimming your model for flight characteristics or personal style?
« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2017, 07:58:12 PM »
So, Tim...when you got PW's plane and set the CG exactly on PW's mark, was the Atlantis more (or less) responsive than your Twisted Sister? Just wondering!  **) Steve
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Trimming your model for flight characteristics or personal style?
« Reply #20 on: August 02, 2017, 10:59:59 AM »
So, Tim...when you got PW's plane and set the CG exactly on PW's mark, was the Atlantis more (or less) responsive than your Twisted Sister? Just wondering!  **) Steve

Not when I get the handle adjusted so that it's where I like it.  I just seem to need a handle arrangement that's far more "dead" than anyone else -- but I generally want the plane set up right.  If someone else flies my plane I need to remember to move the lines out by about 20%.

One of the California Big Boys (was it Ted Fancher?) said "trim the plane to fly right, and the handle to the pilot's preference".
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Re: Trimming your model for flight characteristics or personal style?
« Reply #21 on: August 02, 2017, 11:28:01 AM »
Not when I get the handle adjusted so that it's where I like it.  I just seem to need a handle arrangement that's far more "dead" than anyone else

   Addressed above.

    Brett

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Trimming your model for flight characteristics or personal style?
« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2017, 11:39:22 AM »
   Addressed above.

I'm not sure which of the huge amount of good material you're referring to.  I know that I've flown a few other people's airplanes, and a few other people have flown mine (both with and without remembering to change the handle spacing), and with the exception of handle spacing I seem to like what everyone else likes.

I just seem to fly better rounds and straights, and get decent, less bouncy corners, with my "dead" handle setting.  But everyone else in the universe (even my wife, who's learning to fly) seems to need more throw.  Maybe I could train myself to fly with a handle spacing the same as everyone else -- but even with my "dead" handle spacing I can always get more turn out of a plane than I can profitably use, so I figure I'm doing OK.
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Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Trimming your model for flight characteristics or personal style?
« Reply #23 on: August 03, 2017, 01:49:57 PM »
snip

One of the California Big Boys (was it Ted Fancher?) said "trim the plane to fly right, and the handle to the pilot's preference".

Hi Tim,  No worries but I don't believe I ever said anything quite like that. 

What you are probably remembering is that it is my strong belief that the handle should never be adjusted out of a fundamentally sound configuration (equal up and down arms and overhang and an upright neutral setting) as a first step in resolving an aircraft "response" issue.  To the greatest degree possible aerodynamic adjustments to the aircraft should precede any abuse of the handle.  Only when one has run out of "sound" aerodynamic solutions should physical biases of any sort be adjusted into the handle.

Adjustments to the handle are available to "make the pilot happy" after the airplane has been properly trimmed.  I wholly endorse only two types of adjustment: up/down line spacing to achieve a response rate (aircraft pitch change for a given amount of handle movement) of a well trimmed aircraft to the preference of the pilot (this does "NOT" include biasing inside outside spacing as a first response to unequal turns). 2. Handle overhang to make the effort (muscle power) required to achieve your desired rate of pitch change...generally shorter overhang for pilots (like myself) who prefer inputs primarily from wrist and finger movement and longer for those that prefer to "grip it and rip" it using larger muscles and lever arms (elbow and shoulder inputs).

Ultlimately two steps:  1. adjust the airplane to make it happy, then  2. adjust the handle to make the pilot happy. (Please note that it may be necessary to adjust line spacing somewhat following initial trimming flights if the airplane is too responsive or not responsive enough.  DON'T, however assume that that initial adjustment to make the ship responsive enough to continue is the final best location. 

To maximize aircraft performance in high winds the CG should be located just far enough forward of the CG that the airplane 1. glides and descends smoothly, 2. doesn't float going into a breeze and 3. responds to whipping.  This will be the aftmost location of the CG that provides those safety nets.  In addition it will be the CG location that most minimizes wind-up and opening up in consecutive maneuvers in those high winds.  I.e. the position which minimizes to the greatest degree possible the scary experience of running out of elevator in high winds during those consecutive maneuvers and buzzing the ants...or worse!

Sorry T.M.I. again.

Ted

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Trimming your model for flight characteristics or personal style?
« Reply #24 on: August 03, 2017, 02:53:02 PM »
Ultlimately two steps:  1. adjust the airplane to make it happy, then  2. adjust the handle to make the pilot happy.

Or in Tim's language, there's nothing you can do with the handle to change the airplane-and-control-lines dynamics.  Handle spacing is a function of airplane control geometry, however.  The handle spacing giving pilot happiness with one airplane may differ from the spacing giving pilot happiness with another. 
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Trimming your model for flight characteristics or personal style?
« Reply #25 on: August 03, 2017, 04:02:59 PM »
Ultlimately two steps:  1. adjust the airplane to make it happy, then  2. adjust the handle to make the pilot happy.

That's what I meant, but you say it better.  And I pretty much agree with the rest -- certainly you shouldn't be fiddling with the handle if the airplane ain't right.

Or in Tim's language, there's nothing you can do with the handle to change the airplane-and-control-lines dynamics.  Handle spacing is a function of airplane control geometry, however.  The handle spacing giving pilot happiness with one airplane may differ from the spacing giving pilot happiness with another. 

Yes, different airplanes are going to drive different handle spacings -- and if your handle spacing gets unusually narrow (for you), then it's an indication that the controls on the airplane are too "slow" fast (dangit!), bringing you closer to the Netzband wall.

Edit: Got the sign of my exponent wrong, there, dangit!  Thank you Randy for straightening me out.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 08:28:01 PM by Tim Wescott »
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Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Trimming your model for flight characteristics or personal style?
« Reply #26 on: August 03, 2017, 07:25:16 PM »
That's what I meant, but you say it better.  And I pretty much agree with the rest -- certainly you shouldn't be fiddling with the handle if the airplane ain't right.

Yes, different airplanes are going to drive different handle spacings -- and if your handle spacing gets unusually narrow (for you), then it's an indication that the controls on the airplane are too "slow", bringing you closer to the Netzband wall.

UUUUHHHHH Tim I believe you've got that reversed.  If the controls on the airplane are too slow you need a wider control spacing at the handle to speed them up.  So...If the handle spacing gets too narrow it's an indication that the controls are too fast! ....   NO???

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Offline RknRusty

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Re: Trimming your model for flight characteristics or personal style?
« Reply #27 on: August 03, 2017, 08:15:55 PM »
UUUUHHHHH Tim I believe you've got that reversed.  If the controls on the airplane are too slow you need a wider control spacing at the handle to speed them up.  So...If the handle spacing gets too narrow it's an indication that the controls are too fast! ....   NO???

Randy Cuberly
Randy, that was my impression too when I first read it, but after reading again, I decided what you say is actually what he meant.

Now, regarding my nemesis: turning neat steady inside bottom corners into steady flat lines of flight. I have always had a problem with porpoising inside bottom turns, such as the final corners of the hourglass and triangle. Since I'd been laid off for so long and had not flown my Twister since October, I decided today was a good day to fix that problem.

I hold my handle backasswards compared to most pilots, and also in a horizontal overhanded grip. Wrist-right for the up line(inside turns) and wrist+elbow-left for the down line(outside turns). I've always had comfortable outside turns and frantic inside turns, to the point that I rotate my handle upside down to get enough up-elevator and porpoising the plane while rotating back to the normal position as I continue my line of flight. But My neutral position has me rolling very nice takeoffs, landings and level flight with arm/wrist neutral and relaxed. The neutral setting of the handle suits most guest pilots fine, but I do carry a guest handle if they prefer. The plane is very well trimmed... you'll have to take my word for it, but I've been well trained in trimming, from bench to flight.

Today before I flew, I moved the right line, the UP line, as close to the outside edge of the handle as possible. The first two inside turns were too tight, but after finding the groove, I can now fly bottoms out of inside turns and avoid the panic of trying to locate the 5' altitude without fear of killing a gopher. I'm still breaking the urge to roll my hand over, but it was much more comfortable for me, so I'm happy after this change. Now that some judges have urged me into Advanced after 3 seasons in Int., I'm able to fly shapes that look like I belong in the higher skill level. That's a goal that took me frustratingly longer than I'd been expecting to.

I've been flying with the backward handle since I was a child, and I'm deeply trained in those motions at this late stage in my flying career. One of those dubious personal preferences? No doubt. My dear old Dad taught me to hold it that way with my black plastic Cox Stuka, and I didn't know better for 20 years.
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Trimming your model for flight characteristics or personal style?
« Reply #28 on: August 03, 2017, 08:26:20 PM »
UUUUHHHHH Tim I believe you've got that reversed.  If the controls on the airplane are too slow you need a wider control spacing at the handle to speed them up.  So...If the handle spacing gets too narrow it's an indication that the controls are too fast! ....   NO???

Uhh -- yes.  I stand corrected.  Thank you.
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