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Author Topic: Trimming with on board cam aid  (Read 938 times)

Offline Paul Van Dort

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Trimming with on board cam aid
« on: January 28, 2022, 07:29:18 AM »
Hi all, thanks for having me on the forum.
Detecting yaw in the different parts of the stuntprogram and cure it, is an important part of the trimming process of our models.
I was wondering of somebody already has used a small onboard actioncam, aimed towards the pilot to detect and understand better the yaw (and roll)  movements of the model .
I would imagine that a view towards the pilot should give a clear view of the "malicious" movements of the model. The pilot should pretty much stay centered in the video when in perfect trim.
Thanks for your feedback

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Trimming with on board cam aid
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2022, 07:50:48 AM »
Hi all, thanks for having me on the forum.
Detecting yaw in the different parts of the stuntprogram and cure it, is an important part of the trimming process of our models.
I was wondering of somebody already has used a small onboard actioncam, aimed towards the pilot to detect and understand better the yaw (and roll)  movements of the model .
I would imagine that a view towards the pilot should give a clear view of the "malicious" movements of the model. The pilot should pretty much stay centered in the video when in perfect trim.
Thanks for your feedback
Check some of Mark Wood's posts.  He has done nearly exactly that.

Ken
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Offline kevin king

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Re: Trimming with on board cam aid
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2022, 12:20:39 PM »

Offline kevin king

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Re: Trimming with on board cam aid
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2022, 12:22:21 PM »

Offline kevin king

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Re: Trimming with on board cam aid
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2022, 12:27:26 PM »
3 different views from the planes perspective

Offline Paul Van Dort

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Re: Trimming with on board cam aid
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2022, 03:02:02 PM »
All great footage. I will mount a small SQ11 cam on my fuselage pointing to the center of the circle and use the resulting videos for trimming. E.g. when adjusting the rabe rudder it is very important to know exactly what happens in corners wrt yaw. The model should stay neutral. If it yaws out, line tension will make it yaw in again. Not good. We don't want that kind of oscillation and it is difficult to detect from the inside of the cercle. Let's see how it goes next Sunday.

Offline Mark wood

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Re: Trimming with on board cam aid
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2022, 06:07:33 PM »
All great footage. I will mount a small SQ11 cam on my fuselage pointing to the center of the circle and use the resulting videos for trimming. E.g. when adjusting the rabe rudder it is very important to know exactly what happens in corners wrt yaw. The model should stay neutral. If it yaws out, line tension will make it yaw in again. Not good. We don't want that kind of oscillation and it is difficult to detect from the inside of the cercle. Let's see how it goes next Sunday.

Look at my video with the AOA sensor on the wing tip. I made that device with the specific intent of watching the yaw. In order to see the yaw it goo to have a refference to relate to. Mounting the camera pretty much on the high point of the wing and not very high over the wing will help get goo alingment. You can also see any roll that is occurring this way.



Life is good AMA 1488
Why do we fly? We are practicing, you might say, what it means to be alive...  -Richard Bach
“Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that’s not why we do it.” – Richard P. Feynman

Offline Paul Van Dort

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Re: Trimming with on board cam aid
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2022, 08:18:37 AM »
That is super, Marc. I will start slowly with a sticker on the wing to indicate what the perpendicular axis is to the fuselage axis. I would expect the pilot to remain aligned with this mark. Interesting observations of AoA and roll and yaw from your video. My aim would be to get rid of all the oscillations around roll and yaw axis. The effect of adjusting CoG, leadout position, tipweigth and the Rabe rudder should be clearly visible from the cam.
Thanks for sharing.

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Trimming with on board cam aid
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2022, 11:21:57 AM »
That is super, Marc. I will start slowly with a sticker on the wing to indicate what the perpendicular axis is to the fuselage axis. I would expect the pilot to remain aligned with this mark. Interesting observations of AoA and roll and yaw from your video. My aim would be to get rid of all the oscillations around roll and yaw axis. The effect of adjusting CoG, leadout position, tipweigth and the Rabe rudder should be clearly visible from the cam.
Thanks for sharing.
I would be careful of eliminating all roll in the overhead maneuvers.  I slight wing low both upright and inverted in the OH8 can save the day if you miss the wind just a tad.  The proper tip weight can achieve this and still keep the wing level on the deck.  I am fighting my new ship right now to find that balance.  My experience is that once you have the aerodynamic reasons the wings are not level cured, the maximum tip weight you can carry and still be wings level down low will achieve it.

Ken
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Offline Mark wood

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Re: Trimming with on board cam aid
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2022, 12:30:52 PM »
That is super, Marc. I will start slowly with a sticker on the wing to indicate what the perpendicular axis is to the fuselage axis. I would expect the pilot to remain aligned with this mark. Interesting observations of AoA and roll and yaw from your video. My aim would be to get rid of all the oscillations around roll and yaw axis. The effect of adjusting CoG, leadout position, tipweigth and the Rabe rudder should be clearly visible from the cam.
Thanks for sharing.

My first selfie video I notice some roll during the maneuvers and the camera is in a better location for visualizing trim disparities. It is located right at the fuselage wing junction and you can see me moving for and aft from yaw and the wing tip covering me when there is roll away and opening up a greater space between the wing tip and me. I haven't installed my version of rudder kicker yet but I did add a small tab to the flap to correct the rolling. The rudder kicker is in my Frankenlaser build thread which I have been distracted with developing an onboard data recorder and some indoor CL model kits. Here's a link to the first selfie.



Life is good AMA 1488
Why do we fly? We are practicing, you might say, what it means to be alive...  -Richard Bach
“Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that’s not why we do it.” – Richard P. Feynman

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Trimming with on board cam aid
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2022, 02:43:05 PM »
Glad I have arms on this chair. D>K H^^
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Paul Van Dort

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Re: Trimming with on board cam aid
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2022, 01:08:37 PM »
Hi all, I did record a flight with an onboard cam yesterday. It gives a lot of information on yaw and roll behaviour of the model. The flight was too fast but there was an interesting point where the model behaved totally unexpected. It reminded me of this discussion: https://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/wake-turbulence-in-the-hourglass/msg279537/#msg279537
During the thirth corner of the hourglass, the model shows the top of the wing, followed by a big yaw in. Look at this footage, from 3:45 onwards:  .
Analysing this corner frame by frame makes me think that all is due to marginally too much tipweigth: Lower linetension results in more severe hinging. Hinging creates a speed difference and momentum between inside and outside tip. This momentum causes yaw in as soon as the controls are staigthened for the downward part.
I don't think stalling/ tip stalling has anything to do with. I will remove some tipweigth and try again next time.

Offline Mark wood

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Re: Trimming with on board cam aid
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2022, 02:00:22 PM »
That's a pretty good video. Need a little more foam between the camera and the fuselage to help the video noise from vibration. I don't know what camera you have but mine ahs a 1080 mode I have to switch on each time I start it. That would help. The first thing I see is there is some roll which occurring  on all maneuvers I'm gonna say probably not weight related unless it would be not enough weight. The inside maneuvers the inside wing tip is moving up and outside it is moving down. I fixed that by adding area to the outboard flap. I don't know about your airplane but flap area asymmetry can cause this.

Excessive weight would show up in the level flight segments but I don't see it. The pilot is the same distance from the wing top to head both upright and inverted. From this I conclude the weight is correct and the rolling is coming from flap lift asymmetry.

The rolling of the model is a very complex thing however a rolling moment is generated any time the center of lift is displaced from the center of mass. In level flight a trim tab would only be effective at fixing a twist and not lateral CG. If this is in balance with no flap deflection, which this airplane appears to be, and a rolling moment is generated with a planform change, ie flap deflection, the rolling moment is the result of a change in lateral lift distribution.  So the conclusion is either there is dissymmetry in area or deflection. Igor uses a tab to correct this and I have found the same. On mine, I calculated the area difference and made a tab the size of the difference and that corrected the rolling.

The third corner is getting pounded hard by a triple whammy. The airplane is slowing down quite a bit and is beginning yaw inward before the down pull. The precession of the propeller is also causing some yaw. The downward pitch, from the previous maneuvers show rolling towards inboard from the previous maneuvers. The impact of yaw on a swept wing is an rolling moment in the direction of the yaw. This airplane is definitely doing all of those. I don't think it is a "tip stall" as there is not a break in pitch rate and noticeable indication of yaw rate increase.

I think more Rabe rudder will help this. With the provision that the rolling from the previous maneuvers is corrected. I wouldn't work on the hourglass until after getting the rolling sorted out in the normal maneuvers. That way you fix that issue and don't over do the rudder. and set up an endless trim loop chasing the problems. There's gonna be some cyclic trim loop. I'd start with a 1/4" wide x 1" - 2" long tab x however thick the flap TE is on the outside flap.
Life is good AMA 1488
Why do we fly? We are practicing, you might say, what it means to be alive...  -Richard Bach
“Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that’s not why we do it.” – Richard P. Feynman

Offline kevin king

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Re: Trimming with on board cam aid
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2022, 06:37:28 PM »
Ive always found a rigidly
 mounted camera to give the best picture. Maybe because the vibrations of the plane and camera are both in sync, and not lagging behind. That's my guess anyway. Plus if the camera ever vibrated loose you would never find it again, or hit someone.

Offline Paul Van Dort

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Re: Trimming with on board cam aid
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2022, 01:01:36 AM »
Hi Mark, my comment in line. Thx

That's a pretty good video. Need a little more foam between the camera and the fuselage to help the video noise from vibration. I don't know what camera you have but mine ahs a 1080 mode I have to switch on each time I start it. That would help.

Paul: My camera is SQ11. it has the possibiliy for 1080 mode. I will test it. Thanks

The first thing I see is there is some roll which occurring  on all maneuvers I'm gonna say probably not weight related unless it would be not enough weight. The inside maneuvers the inside wing tip is moving up and outside it is moving down. I fixed that by adding area to the outboard flap. I don't know about your airplane but flap area asymmetry can cause this.

Paul: I think that the model rolls a bit outwards in inside maneuvers due to marginally too much tipweigth. Can you indicate the timing on the video where it works otherwise? You have more experience in analysing this type of footage. The outboard flap is larger that te inboard flap in chord and length as was good practise in the nineties.

Excessive weight would show up in the level flight segments but I don't see it. The pilot is the same distance from the wing top to head both upright and inverted. From this I conclude the weight is correct and the rolling is coming from flap lift asymmetry.

Paul: To show tipweigth issues iin level flight you need a lot of excessive tipweigth I reckon. e.g 1 ounce extra or so..

The rolling of the model is a very complex thing however a rolling moment is generated any time the center of lift is displaced from the center of mass. In level flight a trim tab would only be effective at fixing a twist and not lateral CG. If this is in balance with no flap deflection, which this airplane appears to be, and a rolling moment is generated with a planform change, ie flap deflection, the rolling moment is the result of a change in lateral lift distribution.  So the conclusion is either there is dissymmetry in area or deflection. Igor uses a tab to correct this and I have found the same. On mine, I calculated the area difference and made a tab the size of the difference and that corrected the rolling.

Paul: The flap differential is the same as e.g. the nineties Impact of Paul Walker

The third corner is getting pounded hard by a triple whammy. The airplane is slowing down quite a bit and is beginning yaw inward before the down pull. The precession of the propeller is also causing some yaw. The downward pitch, from the previous maneuvers show rolling towards inboard from the previous maneuvers. The impact of yaw on a swept wing is an rolling moment in the direction of the yaw. This airplane is definitely doing all of those. I don't think it is a "tip stall" as there is not a break in pitch rate and noticeable indication of yaw rate increase.

Paul: I have the impresion that the worst yaw occurs immediately after turn 3, caused by the severe hinging in the turn. I had to go step by step trough the corner because it happens very quickly

I think more Rabe rudder will help this. With the provision that the rolling from the previous maneuvers is corrected. I wouldn't work on the hourglass until after getting the rolling sorted out in the normal maneuvers. That way you fix that issue and don't over do the rudder. and set up an endless trim loop chasing the problems. There's gonna be some cyclic trim loop. I'd start with a 1/4" wide x 1" - 2" long tab x however thick the flap TE is on the outside flap.

Paul: I definitely need footage of a slower flight with less linetension to have more movement around the yaw and roll action to be able to better understand the behaviour of the model. I will keep you posted here.

Mark, thank you for your great feedback.


Offline Mark wood

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Re: Trimming with on board cam aid
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2022, 06:48:48 AM »
Hi Mark, my comment in line. Thx


Lots of good reply info there. I look at the whole flight for clues. I did, in fact, use some knowledge bias in my assessment of the rolling in that "most" airplanes have inboard flap area bias.

Let me add another quick camera location comment. Your camera is mounted up high on the fuselage. When I first started making my videos, I had the camera mounted at the juncture between the wing and fuselage which basically puts the camera sitting on the wing. This location is much more "sensitive" to the attitude. This is the camera position of my "Selfie" video and is the best one I made for trimming aspects. I made the elevated camera mount so I could watch the flow visualization tufts. I've got around 40 video flights I've been looking at for various aspects and testing. The videos are an engineering tool for me and I'm just about to begin flying a datalogger with several parameters of interest include control forces and motor command.

I think the "ideal" camera location would be on the center line of the wing looking straight out of the lead out guide. That isn't practical so mounting as close to the wing as possible is desirable.  Here's why. The higher the camera is away from the wing the more of an angle it makes with the wingtip which we attempting to use a movement reference. In the ideal situation the camera would always be looking at the shoulder of the pilots flying arm. That would be the locus of reference coordinate axis. As it is currently I still use this or the pilots head to look for variations.

Quote
Paul: To show tipweigth issues iin level flight you need a lot of excessive tipweigth I reckon. e.g 1 ounce extra or so..


I don't think it requires that much to be seen with the camera. The method I use is to look at the space between the wing tip and a reference on the pilot to observe any continuous roll, level flight, or dynamic rolling during maneuvers. Having the camera mounted at an elevated position makes this task slightly more difficult. Returning for a more closer look at the level upright / inverted flight, and using a ruler there does appear to be a slight difference upright to inverted but it seems slightly "under weighted" or over rolled. Either way there are some things you can do. The bottom line is with flaps deflected there is a net rolling moment being generated and either solution weight or change in flap area bias should correct it. It doesn't appear warp related as that would create a constant bank error upright to inverted.

Quote
Paul: I have the impresion that the worst yaw occurs immediately after turn 3, caused by the severe hinging in the turn. I had to go step by step trough the corner because it happens very quickly

I think maybe there is a slight difference here. What I am suggesting is that yawing is helping to drive the hinging and the oscillations seen post turn is that yaw being returned to its normal static state. Throughout the turn it is clear there is significant yaw occurring. There many reasons beside what drives my conclusion including siting in the cockpit of aerobatic full size airplanes and evaluating the yaw/roll coupling. There are three times the yaw is pumped during this portion of the hourglass, the first being the second corner which the yawing is not yet damped out before entering the third corner where the yaw cycle is moving nose inward when the pitch down is initiated which precipitates a yaw in the same direction as the result of the propeller precession which in turn is causing a roll coupling. Yaw is driving the roll in addition to the baseline rolling seen in previous maneuvers. Roll coupling with yaw is inherent in wings with sweep and or dihedral.

It's clear to me that the first step to improving the baseline rolling from the less aggressive maneuvers.
Life is good AMA 1488
Why do we fly? We are practicing, you might say, what it means to be alive...  -Richard Bach
“Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that’s not why we do it.” – Richard P. Feynman


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