Thought on competition and participating in CLPA

[Randy Powell]

On one of the other boards, there was a long discussion on what it takes to "win" in CLPA. Is it the pilots skill? The quality and trim of the airplane? Luck? Halo? Some other factor?

I thought about this for quite awhile and ultimately decided that this is really the wrong question, at least from my point of view. All of us got into doing this for probably as many reasons as there are people doing the event. And we continue to do it for just as wide a variety of reasons. Some or many phases of it appeals to us.

Few of us will ever be National or World Champ. Either we don't have the inate ability or perhaps we choose not to invest the incredible amount of time and money it takes to get good enough to compete at that level. Maybe we can't afford the travel or whatever. Maybe other factors are involved. Probably a lot of them. For me, I doubt I'll be able to go to the Nationals contest on anything like the regular basis you need to in order get comfortable enough to be competitive there (though it would be nice to make it once in my life). And I know that without a regular place to fly, I'll never be able to practice enough to fly with those guys on a regular basis. Heck, I'm still asking some basic questions about power train and such because I can't fly enough to get really comfortable with the equipment I use. Sigh...

Any yet I continue to build planes and compete locally. I think the question really is, how do you make yourself the best you can be at this within the constraints that life or your choices make it? How do I do the best that I can do? For me, where that puts me in the overall continuum of flyers really isn't the point. If I can go to a contest and at the end of the day be able to say that I did the best that I was capable of doing, then I'm pretty happy. Doesn't happen all the time, but when it does, I walk away with a smile on my face. And whether I placed 1st (hasn't happened yet) or last or somewhere in between, as long as I gave it my best effort and got my equipment to perform to the best standard that it is capable of at that point in time, I'm pretty happy. Where I fall in placing compared to others is sort of secondary. Don't get me wrong, I'm not opposed to winning (Duh!), but for me it's more important to have my equipment work the way I had planned and to put in my best effort. Where I come out in the overall placing will take care of itself.

We all want to do well whether we are competing at the Nationals or flying at the local flying field just for ourselves. I think it's important to be clear about what we are doing and what we are trying to accomplish. Besides, this is supposed to be a recreational activity however serious about it we are. Hey, I have fun.

OK, long, rambling treatise over. I'm going to go get my flame retardant long johns on. 

[Joejust]

Randy, No flames fom this section of the NW. Thanks for the very interesting position. My once lightening reflexes have dwindled to mere rumors of distant thunder, and I have come to realize that my competitive years are way behind me. I will never again place well in any CL competition. From now on I will only fly at contests to fill in time I have left over after all the talking with those in this hobby I  have learned to love like brothers over the years. I have made myself a promise that I will not even look at any score that I get for any event.  I suppose that in just a few seasons I may not even fly a plane at a contest. That's what happened when I spent 5 days back East at a recent contest where tjhe plane I had intended to take never made it to PA. I doubt I have never enjoyed a control line meet as much as that one, and I really think the word enjoy says it all, if the word enjoy can be meant to mean fun.

The next contest you go to take a look at who is really having fun, and who is  pleased with their preformance and who is not pleased. It really is quite an eye opener. I respect and admire both those that simply have fun and those that  push for perferction. After years of competition in college and pro sports, car racing and other ventures I am now just beginning to really have fun.  This is not surrender! It mearly is another satisfying way of never giving up.

Joe Just
























Joe

[Jim Thomerson]

I'm pretty much with the above.  I've always liked to fly competitively.  These days my reflexes, concentration and mobility are not what they used to be.  I like to build out of the rut airplanes and get them to fly well enough for me and the observers to enjoy the flights.  The socialization is a big part of it. On reflection I see that almost all my friends are either professional associates or hobby associates.  As far as the event goes, if my stuff works as advertised, and I fly as well as I could, then I won, no matter what the scoreboard says.  If not, then I had a lot of fun socializing in any case. 

[Mark Scarborough]

Great point Randy!
I thought about this for several hours tonight while working on the GB resurection. As of this point I really dont have any profound thoughts, just random ones. I wanted to post before I lost them.
I guess airplanes have been a part of my life since I can remember. whether its plastic models, cox RTFs, or my first balsa beastie. Even just standing outside watching the rare airplane fly overhead to land at our tiny municipal airport would give me shivers. Finally I got to a place where I could reactivate my passion for planes. Stunt is perhaps the only event that feeds my passion so completely, the beautifull airplanes where appearance is a premium, and the mental challange of trying to learn how to trim them , design them, and fly them precisely are equally mixed. Scale intrigues me, carrier intrigues me, combat intrigues me, but none capture me like wathcing a meticulously built and trimmed aircraft "defy" the pavement strutting its stuff. I tend towards being very competative, I have bowled comptativly, (highest average was 210) in tournements, I raced stock cars, Played softball, but these are all competitions against someone else. While it is true that we compete "agaionst" someone in this sport, for me, I compete against myself and the others are a measuring stick of sorts to allow me to see how much I have or havent progressed. That progress is in the flying, but as much as that its in creating the tool I fly with. I lust to build and design true "competition" level planes. Alas for now its enough to create tools that allow me as much flying time as possible while still feeding the creative side, hence my Gee Bee. I drive myself very hard and am extremely critical of everything I do. This sport allows me to feed that extreme competative drive without it becoming about BEATING joe pilot, though I wont disallow that a certain rivalry exists between myself and several of my peers. I cant think of anything else I have done that allows me to push myself to the very limit of my ability, (albeit at this stage my limit is a touch lower than a good many) but then turn around and truly enjoy watching my peers outperform me. My weekends at contests allow me to rub shoulders and exchange ideas with others. Heck I even get positive feedback from my lurching progress. To say that going to contests is the goal misrepresents the true reason I go to contests. Yes it is a competition, but!!!! without the acceptance and exchange of ideas and information as well as the just plane good times, the contests wouldnt be enough were they soley existant to putting in those 4 or 6 judged flights. As Randy says, I dont really have the money, time or consistant flying spot, not to mention a good coach, close by to expect to compete at a high level, but, rest assured, I will compete as intensly as my skill allows, (ok so it could be argued I perhaps fly a bit beyond my skill at times,, sigh,, nothing a touch of CA and some epoxy cant fix though right?) My goal, aside from the great companionship, is to be able to progress to the expert level and whenever one of them "real hotdogs" slips up, I want em to know that Im hangin right there ,, Perhaps in some years, and gallons of fuel, I shall get there, but I have no fear that I will ever reach the point that I satisfy myself completely, hence a lifetime sport. I like Randy have several ideas floating about in my head that I want to try, the next "revolution " right Randy lol,,, so I cant see gettign bored, heck I have about 5 different planes I want to build before next year! At the rate Im going I probably should build all 5 too!
I hope some of the thoughts make sense, not sure I got my  fellings across but hey, thats where it stands for now.
great topic Randy, really did make me think about the "why"

[Bill Little]

Hmmmmmm.  That "four letter word" called *competition*!

Way too many Soccer Mom, "make little Johnny feel good by feeding him full of horse hockey", "feel good" morons in this country have almost BANNED the use of the word n many places.  Give everyone a trophy because they paid the registration to be on the team.......... Awwwwww........ don't get me started!

I have "competed" in SOME MANNER for 50 years in something.  In front of 100,000 people even.  I love it, but it's all intrinsic for me.  It is me against me!  At one time I set out to beat everyone else I was competing with no matter if it was just tiddly winks.  But I was actually just trying to beat my on personal best in what ever it was, I soon realized.  I would do personal things and try to do one more, or a little quicker, or........

Now, I have not changed much.  But I enjoy the people in this event o much, that I don't experience the huge let down (which fueled me to work harder, before) as much as I once did.  I try to build each plane better than the last in some way.  I try to fly each contest pattern better than the last in some way..........  but if Derek Barry whips my butt by 40 points in Classic, I still give him my "Big Bear" hug!  And I am grinning from ear to ear while doing it.  Why?  Because I can no longer buckle the chin strap and lay into someone.  I can't go to the plate and take a cut at a 100 mph fastball from Al Holland.  I can't pick up that 16 lb ball and put it over 60 feet.  And I sure as heck can't break 10 seconds in the 100 yard dash anymore!

BUT, I can put some fuel in my model, and go fly 15 maneuvers with two, or three guys holding a clip board and giving me a score. 

 I can still "COMPETE"!  And I love it!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[taildragger-j3]

Right on Big Bear! LIFE is a competitive sport. We might as well accept that competition is a function of what keeps us breathing, etc. I like to see how well I can match up to my peers in almost any arena, but probably as much as anything I want to be the best ME I can be. Something my dad always expected of me. Didn't always have to win 1st place, but I did always have to do my best.

Haven't flown much serious competition in 40 years, but still enjoy our little club events and don't mind being near the top of the heap when all the flights are logged. I don't have the time or $$ to spend to be competitive at the national level in any of my varied pursuits but I always want to be the best I can be in whatever I'm doing.

[Jim Thomerson]

My wife is an organist.  Many years ago she enrolled in the U. of Colorado.  She won the "Outstanding Freshman Music Major" award.  She decided she did not want to study at a place where she was the best student; and transferred to U. Texas.  After she finished her bachelors, before we were married, she went back to Colorado to teach organ while her teacher there was on sabbatical.   I suppose one of the things I like about competition is the opportunity to associate with people who are better than me. (Did not really care for the long distance engagement so much, however) 

[Bob Reeves]

Not sure what drives me, competition is allot of work and gives me anxiety attacks but I still do it. I love tinkering and probably one of the reasons I like the hobby, I get to tinker allot. Contests are fun because I get to spend time with friends, building is fun because I get to tinker, making engines work is fun because I get to tinker. Part of trimming a new ship is fun because I get to tinker the other part is work because I don't know what to do or don't have time to really get down to the nitty gritty..

Think most of all it's my friends and the love of tinkering..

[Bradley Walker]

You have to ask yourself, are you flying to compete or do you compete because you fly?

There is a subtle difference.

I meet people all the time that would rather compete than anything.  it would not matter what they were doing.  Golf, tennis, softball, tidlywinks, who has the best lawn in the neighborhood, who has the hottest wife, who makes the most money, etc etc etc...  Everything has to be a competition.  I used to meet guys at the golf course all the time who SIMPLY WOULD NOT PLAY if they could not play you for a buck a hole.

Then there is the guy who just likes to play.

I am still trying to figure out which guy I am.  Maybe a little of both.  I do know this.  I could stop competing.

[Randy Powell]

One of the arguments I've made, purely from a personal standpoint, in favor of keeping the current structure in stunt (BOM, appearance points, etc.) is that it drives individuals to be good at a multitude of skills. I  think Ted Fancher once wrote (paraphrasing) that in order to compete at the highest levels of this event, you had to be an artist, mechanic, technical consultant, structural engineer, athlete and at least part con-man. A plethora of skills has to be applied.

I think that's why folks stay with this for a lifetime. Besides the friends and fun as Mark points out, it seems that you can never really master everything. There is always something to learn, some easier or more efficient way of doing something, some new trick or material or whatever to try. There is always some design we want to build. Something always around the corner. It tends to keep your attention.

No matter how frustrated I've gotten doing this (and there have been times...), it seems that I always get pulled back to it. Definitely an addiction. But at least it's a proactive one.

edit for typo and spelling

[Mike Danford]

Fabulous way to put it and I think you've captured the spirit of the original post over at SSW. 

The paraphrased Ted Fancher point is a huge part of doing the best you can, efficiently.  You have to realize there are many aspects.

It's nigh near impossible to "just become" the best at ANYTHING.  It goes in steps, win locally, regionally... blah blah blah.

Now, within the contraints of any one aspect it takes to be good, how do you achieve a high level of proficiency quickly and efficiently becomes the question.  When I was an instructor in the advanced phase of strike (jet) training in the Navy, we always taught the kids to bracket.  In my opinion, when taking a kid out to drop bombs, I much preferred to see some long, some short.  All 6 in a nice tight little grouping but still not on target showed no ability to correct or learn.  Or, the learning was gonna be SLOW. 

Good instructors and coaching is VERY important.  Everyone learns in a different fashion, you need to find someone who teaches in a way you can understand.

When I was teaching someone, if they weren't getting it, I considered it my fault and kept changing how I was instructing until I saw results.  We considered a student worthy of advancing as long as they kept getting better.  A positive learning curve went WAY further than natural but untrainable talent.

It's funny, it wasn't until this post that it became CLEAR to me what is the best contest around.  For ANY given person, it's the contest that best caters to the aspect of c/l that is inherently important to them.  For more sport oriented types, Brodaks probably.  Glory days types, VSC... makes sense.  Pure competition gurus, NATS.  It's clearly not THAT cut and dried, but I believe that to be basically true. 

Excellent original post. 

Tools

[Randy Powell]

Brad,

>>I meet people all the time that would rather compete than anything.  it would not matter what they were doing.  Golf, tennis, softball, tidlywinks, who has the best lawn in the neighborhood, who has the hottest wife, who makes the most money, etc etc etc... <<

I was like this, I think. Till I turned about 25 and figured out that I had to become an adult. Shades of Maslow's pyramid.     Seriously, I was a pretty competitive guy when I was younger. But I had a lot of success at earlier endeavors and I suppose I satisfied myself that I could compete anyone and win, given the time and resources. Now I just was to enjoy the pursuit.

Mike,

You bring up an interesting point, I think. Back when I was in college and a fairly high level athelete in Track and Field, I had a coach that started an entirely new (to us) triaining regimen. He took film of our practices and would superimpose guys that were world class in the event over the film of us (neat trick with two projectors - be easier now with computers). It let us directly compare, in slow motion, where our technique and the world class guys efforts differed. Between that and some other fairly bizarre coaching tricks, I went from being ranked in the second 50 in the world to the top 15 in about 6 months. Clearly coaching helps... a lot. But the thing that had the biggest impression on me was his idea that any skill event is a Gestault. You have to see the whole thing as a single entity. You can study the parts and try to improve in practice certain elements. But you have the see the overall.

So now, when I teaching someone, I try to get them to practice that. Sit in a chair with your handle in your hand, close your eyes, hold out the handle like you're flying and imagine flying the plane through the maneuver. Make the moves...etc. Do it enough and you tend not to freak out when the plane does something funny. Cuts down on figure nines.

Well, that's certainly off track. But your comment got me to thinking about how we learn things. Have to build muscle memory and it's cheaper doing it virtually. Not as many planes to sweep up.

[Randy Cuberly]

Randy,
Excellent post and it very much parallels my feelings on the situation.  I love the spirit of the competition but it's no longer really important to me to win (probably a good thing too or I would be very frustrated).  It is important to compete because that's what guides improvement in any endeavor.
Thanks for the thoughts.

Randy C. 

[Charlie Pate]

Here,s a quote from a Quarter Midget racing handbook for kids and their parents ,that I had never heard before.
" If you race , you will lose more than you will win" : " or you may never win".

Apply this to P.A. and it fits.

I gotta go with you Randy!
It has also been said "Show me a good loser and I,ll show you a loser.
I have to think about this ,and I really don,t know.
Maybe I should talk to Tony Stewart, or Robbie Gordon for a perspective on this.
 Nuff said!

[Marvin Denny]

  In my 70+ years of living (and competing) in this old world,  I have tutored and taught countless youngsters.  some in scouting, some in soft ball,  some (most) in model aviation.
  I have always tried to show them that there are more losers than winners, but if they try hard enough and long enough,  they will usually be among those that we used to look up to and say  "BOY  ---wish I could get good enough to beat him"!!   Being second (or lower in ANY competition is NOT a sin nor a sign of any short coming.  just a case of not being ahead at the end of such competition.
  I also taught them to always remember,  that it is just as important to be a graceful loser as it is to be an humble winner  ---   BECAUSE--- without losers, there would be NO winners.

  Bigiron

 

[Jerry Olson]

Hi Randy:

I hope this doesn't come across as an aimless ramble but any way here goes.  We met this spring at Delta Park in Portland, OR. during the NW Fireballs contest.  We talked about high jumping in our younger days.  Your thoughts on competition reminded me of one of the things I always enjoyed about jumping.  Yes it was always nice to win an event but it was not the sole criteria of a good performance.  If I jumped well, improved my personal best or made progress on an area of the jump that needed work then it was a good day even though I may have been beaten by a better jumper or someone having a better day than me. 

I found it very interesting how something I did many years ago and totally unrelated to flying model airplanes is not so different after all.

Later

[Ted Fancher]

One of the arguments I've made, purely from a personal standpoint, in favor of keeping the current structure in stunt (BOM, appearance points, etc.) is that it drives individuals to be good at a multitude of skills. I  think Ted Fancher once wrote (paraphrasing) that in order to compete at the highest levels of this event, you had to be an artist, mechanic, technical consultant, structural engineer, athlete and at least part con-man. A plethora of skills has to be applied.

I think that's why folks stay with this for a lifetime. Besides the friends and fun as Mark points out, it seems that you can never really master everything. There is always something to learn, some easier or more efficient way of doing something, some new trick or material or whatever to try. There is always some design we want to build. Something always around the corner. It tends to keep your attention.

No matter how frustrated I've gotten doing this (and there have been times...), it seems that I always get pulled back to it. Definitely an addiction. But at least it's a proactive one.

edit for typo and spelling

Hi Randy,

I loved your "paraphrase".  It was pretty accurate except the part about "con-man"!

I'm convinced to this day that judges pretty much see through any of that sort of thing.  It's just too hard to watch, listen, compare and evaluate to leave time for getting "conned".  I like to give people the benefit of the doubt.  I think that most who take on the responsibility of judging our tricks do so with the intention of doing the best job they can without letting themselves be conned.

From a pilot's perspective (at least this pilot), it pretty much takes all the attention I've got available to simply do the best I can to point the airplane in the right direction .. and only I know what I think the right direction is.  I do that and cross my fingers that the judges will agree with me!

In other words, I don't have the spare neurons available to do it.

Interesting discussion.

Brad's thoughts have me shaking my head a bit, although I expect there are some who do approach everything the way he mentions.  Sure, I'd rather win than lose but I don't define myself by the number on my trophies.  Neither do most "lifelong stunt flyers".  I think that reality is why many stunt flyers compete for a lifetime without ever "winning" anything of "importance".  What is important isn't the trophy.

Ted

[Peter Nevai]

You have to ask yourself, are you flying to compete or do you compete because you fly?

There is a subtle difference.

I meet people all the time that would rather compete than anything.  it would not matter what they were doing.  Golf, tennis, softball, tidlywinks, who has the best lawn in the neighborhood, who has the hottest wife, who makes the most money, etc etc etc...  Everything has to be a competition.  I used to meet guys at the golf course all the time who SIMPLY WOULD NOT PLAY if they could not play you for a buck a hole.

Then there is the guy who just likes to play.

I am still trying to figure out which guy I am.  Maybe a little of both.  I do know this.  I could stop competing.

When I had a lengthy conversation with Les Mcdonald several years ago, in Ft. Lauderdale ( Trying to talk him back into flying CL)he confirmed that his was just that type of flyer. That he could not see himself getting back into flying CL again because for him it was all about competiton and winning.

[john e. holliday]

This is more like what I think the originator had in mind than what is going on over there.  I got into competition control line because of the people I met and got to know.  I flew rat race and combat as it was the easiest for me.  I got to be successful in the events as well as carrier.  When out just flying for grins a fellow modeller watched me fly and asked why I didn't fly stunt.  He stated I was doing everthing needed to complete a pattern.  He flew my plane and said it was very capable.  Then told how to fly the pattern in order.  Anyway he and his wife moved to Connecticutt.  I started then in competition as there was not that many carrier and racing events.  Stopped flying combat when AMA said we could no longer start our own engines.  Past couple of years have opened my eyes to flying stunt.  In Fargo I asked where I was at on the score board so I could decide if I needed to fly or not.  They would not let me see the scores.  Told me I was not in top three.  I decided to give it my best as the Fox was purring like a kitten and the Nobler was handling the conditions great.  I came home with a first in Int.  But, it is very discouraging at the time to see people getting better scores when level flight is at 10 foot and maneuvers were all over the place.  Now I fly for the fun as the last time I got serious and knuckled down  with 5 foot bottoms and what I was elated over maneuvers only to have one of the lowest scores I had ever gotten after moving to Adv.  Most of all I love all the people I have met thru the years.  A few I hope to meet again when I leave this big hunk of rock floating in space.  Have fun, DOC Holliday


PS:I can understand how some people feel when not getting scores they think they deserve, especially in appearance judging. jeh

[Bill Little]

Hi Doc,

Over the past 15 years or so of competition CLPA, I have only received two scores that I thought were crazy.  One flight and one Classic AP/Fidelity score.  Not a bad average of "disappointments".

I do not have the desire to compete in CLPA to the level I had in certain sports in my youth.  I could, but then it would become a "job", not a "relaxation event".  The time and effort I would expend would not outweigh the rewards in my mind at this time.  It would mean that I would have to spend 4-6 hours, or more, doing SOMETHING to improve almost everyday!  That was my "routine" (obsession??) when I was a serious competitor.  Not THAT important now.

I have talked with Les McDonald on many occasions.  He was a "win, or don't bother", kind of guy from the impression I got as he talked about his experiences of the past.  I can elate to that all too well.  I was always told that 2nd place was the "first loser"! LOL!!  Fortunately my life doesn't have to hing on that style of thinking anymore.  But at one time it was necessary......

[don Burke]

I think we can credit Roger Penske with "Show me a good loser, and I'll show you a loser" & "Second place is first loser".  He and Mark Donahue were the proponents of "the unfair advantage'!  Sometimes they got caught!  I can't bring myself to cheat even though at times it is very tempting to use an "unfair advantage", but as I noted recently, if you cheat to win you haven't proved anything.

per Randy, "... Besides, this is supposed to be a recreational activity however serious about it we are. Hey, I have fun..."

One of my mentors in my early career in model airplane competition would try to bring me back to earth when I got upset about something with, "It's only a HOBBY!"  That worked, sometimes!

[Randy Powell]

Ted,

>>It was pretty accurate except the part about "con-man"!<<

I was thinking more about other competitors. Not the judges. I agree with all that you said.

Back in the days that I competed in track, it was interesting watching other competitors trying to "psyche" each other out. They had all kinds of tricks to get others to question their approach, equipment or whatever. Break their concentration, doubt themselves. You don't see much of that flying, but it happens.

But I'm just back to, I do this to have fun, improve and do the best I can.

[Randy Powell]

I forgot to add patience of a saint. I was out today working on the new plane. What possessed me to come up with a structure with all those little parts is beyond me. I counted today (while watching the Mariners trying very hard to blow a 5 run lead to the White Sox) and the wing on the new plane has over 200 parts. Now, that's just out of hand.

[Keith Spriggs]

I think we can credit Roger Penske with "Show me a good loser, and I'll show you a loser" & "Second place is first loser". 

Here are some good quotes on winning from Confucius to Diane Feinstien



http://cherylfree.wordpress.com/winning/

[SteveMoon]

Competing is fun.  Steve

[Leo Mehl]

Hi Randy,

I loved your "paraphrase".  It was pretty accurate except the part about "con-man"!

I'm convinced to this day that judges pretty much see through any of that sort of thing.  It's just too hard to watch, listen, compare and evaluate to leave time for getting "conned".  I like to give people the benefit of the doubt.  I think that most who take on the responsibility of judging our tricks do so with the intention of doing the best job they can without letting themselves be conned.

From a pilot's perspective (at least this pilot), it pretty much takes all the attention I've got available to simply do the best I can to point the airplane in the right direction .. and only I know what I think the right direction is.  I do that and cross my fingers that the judges will agree with me!

In other words, I don't have the spare neurons available to do it.

Interesting discussion.

Brad's thoughts have me shaking my head a bit, although I expect there are some who do approach everything the way he mentions.  Sure, I'd rather win than lose but I don't define myself by the number on my trophies.  Neither do most "lifelong stunt flyers".  I think that reality is why many stunt flyers compete for a lifetime without ever "winning" anything of "importance".  What is important isn't the trophy.

Ted

I agree with Ted, I think that this hobby has a lot more to offer than just competition.  I learned to build and fly by the seat of my pants. Stuck in the far notheast reaches of Montana I had no one to learn from,but learn I did. It was costly as far as materials and progress went.
  I to have been competative all my life. From trying to beat up the bully next door to playing sports of all kinds to winning the best girl friend. There are a million things that happen to you in a lifetime and most of them are great. Modeling has garnered me many friends over the years. That is probably my best trophy. Now my modeling is not quit as good as it was but is now more satisfying. I still love competition altho I am not all that competitive. I like sharing ideas and making things work the way I want them to. I too am one that no longer looks at the score card as a measure of anything. I know what I am capable of and always try to better my progress, but as far as I know it is not my top priority to be the best. I would just like to be remembered as someone that loved this sport.