Guillows Trainer 3 Engine

[scott baird]

Was given a trainer 3 with a broken wing. All repairs have been made but need engine for it. Found plans on internet and it shows a fox .29. Dont have a .29 but i do have a o.s. FP .20 and curious if will work. This airplane will be for my son to learn on. Thanks

[James Holford]

.20 might so it. Fox .35 can be easily obtained cheap. Thats what I will use in mine whenever I get it built

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[scott baird]

.20 might so it. Fox .35 can be easily obtained cheap. Thats what I will use in mine whenever I get it built

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Thanks for the reply James. I just got a new to me .35 stunt to put on a ringmaster so might have to dig another one up. Noticed pic of retail box says says .19 to .36. I dont have to use the O.S. so she just might get a fox.

[Dave_Trible]

If it were me I'd go with an old-style loop scavenged .25-.35 that is happy running sloppy slow.  Your .20 is a good engine but one that runs best leaned out pretty fast.  That could be too much at times.  I have a Trainer 2 that I have tried several engines on it but the current old Red Head McCoy .19 works best.  Even so when it leans out when about out of fuel is will move out pretty well.  It's easy to find something on Ebay and real cheap.  Having said that,  there are a few on there right now asking 4 or 5 times what they are worth.  Let those go.  Some are way too proud of their stuff or think they have cornered the market on plentiful old engines.  The buying market is shrinking quickly driving a glut of motors that is driving prices real low.  Collectors wishing to sell are taking a beating.  Where offered, make an offer to the seller.  I've gotten a couple recently for about 2/3rds of the asking price.

Dave

[scott baird]

If it were me I'd go with an old-style loop scavenged .25-.35 that is happy running sloppy slow.  Your .20 is a good engine but one that runs best leaned out pretty fast.  That could be too much at times.  I have a Trainer 2 that I have tried several engines on it but the current old Red Head McCoy .19 works best.  Even so when it leans out when about out of fuel is will move out pretty well.  It's easy to find something on Ebay and real cheap.  Having said that,  there are a few on there right now asking 4 or 5 times what they are worth.  Let those go.  Some are way too proud of their stuff or think they have cornered the market on plentiful old engines.  The buying market is shrinking quickly driving a glut of motors that is driving prices real low.  Collectors wishing to sell are taking a beating.  Where offered, make an offer to the seller.  I've gotten a couple recently for about 2/3rds of the asking price.

Dave

Thanks Dave. Will start the search. A red head would look good as airplane is red. Unfortunately i am still learning to fly and my son has never flown so it might not last to long. But got to start somewhere. 

[scott baird]

The OS FP 20 will work just fine with a 9-4 master Airscrew on 10% nitro.


Motorman

Good to know Motorman. I am mounting engine on plates as mounting holes were worn and that big piece of lumber on the front had lots of oil soaked in. Should be easy to swap different engines in and out so the O.S. might get a turn. Thanks for the info.

[TigreST]

It seems that the trainer 3 was a plane you gave away or was given to you. We had one given to us and had no idea at the time what it was.   We put a McCoy Series-21 .35 on it with a Top Flight 10x6 on it, on 70ft lines and had a blast. 

[Brett Buck]

Was given a trainer 3 with a broken wing. All repairs have been made but need engine for it. Found plans on internet and it shows a fox .29. Dont have a .29 but i do have a o.s. FP .20 and curious if will work. This airplane will be for my son to learn on. Thanks

   The 20FP will be *plenty* of power, more than a Fox 29. It's a "roundy-round" airplane, not a stunter, so almost any thing from a 15 on up will be more than enough. The only problem is trying to get it slowed down, rather than not having enough, you are more likely to have too much.

     Brett

[James Lee]

We had various 15 - 19 motors on our Trainer Three....   on 52' lines and set so it would barely move when released.   It would lumber a bit and float off the ground in a quarter of a lap on asphalt....   Grass will require larger diameter wheels and a more vigorous needle setting...   We used a one ounce tank, which gave about 2 - 2 1/2 minutes of run....    Plenty for a beginner.....   
Jim

[Peter in Fairfax, VA]

The comment about the short flight duration makes a lot of sense for a trainer.  One idea for a tank is to use a square tank instead of a wedge, with the pickup at the bottom instead of half way up.  That way, you can fill the tank 1/4 full.

Maybe this one:

https://brodak.com/fuel/fuel-tank/brodak-tanks/perfect-tanks/rect-fuel-tank-2-1-2-oz.html

[scott baird]

It seems that the trainer 3 was a plane you gave away or was given to you. We had one given to us and had no idea at the time what it was.   We put a McCoy Series-21 .35 on it with a Top Flight 10x6 on it, on 70ft lines and had a blast. 

http://wiki.rc-network.de/images/6/65/Rojo_McCOY_35_Series_21_1.jpg

Well thats how i got one. Was working on my flight streak trainer at work when i was on lunch and one of the Sr operators brought it in to give me the next day. He and his son had flown it. Very cool.

   The 20FP will be *plenty* of power, more than a Fox 29. It's a "roundy-round" airplane, not a stunter, so almost any thing from a 15 on up will be more than enough. The only problem is trying to get it slowed down, rather than not having enough, you are more likely to have too much.
 For sure Brett. I still get dizzy and have not progressed much in my flying as i worked double shifts all summer. Slow and steady we will need.

We had various 15 - 19 motors on our Trainer Three....   on 52' lines and set so it would barely move when released.   It would lumber a bit and float off the ground in a quarter of a lap on asphalt....   Grass will require larger diameter wheels and a more vigorous needle setting...   We used a one ounce tank, which gave about 2 - 2 1/2 minutes of run....    Plenty for a beginner.....   
Jim

Jim thanks for the info. I flew with you,dave,and doc for the first time at the haffa picnic a few years ago. I built and crashed a few airplanes since then and am trying to get the hang of it now that i am on a better work schedule. I remember you had items for sale so if you have an engine that would work for me shoot me a pm. Thanks for the info and hope to fly with you sometime next year.

     

[bob whitney]

my 1st big plane was a G trainer #2 with a K&B 15 flew great on 60 ft lines .the 20 should work good with a low pitch prop

[Gary Dowler]

The OS FP 20 will work just fine with a 9-4 master Airscrew on 10% nitro.


Motorman

Will work wonderfully!!   This combination will exceed the Fox 29 power wise, and fully equal the Fox 35.
Lean it to max rpm, richen just until you detect an audible rpm drop and stop!  Should be about 12,400 or so. Will run brilliantly.

Gary

[Brett Buck]

Will work wonderfully!!   This combination will exceed the Fox 29 power wise, and fully equal the Fox 35.
Lean it to max rpm, richen just until you detect an audible rpm drop and stop!  Should be about 12,400 or so. Will run brilliantly.

   It certainly will run OK. I am concerned that it will be going 100 mph, however.

[Dennis Toth]

Scott,
Since you  building/setting up a Ringmaster instead of using the Fox 35 on it, use it on the Trainer and the FP20 in the Ringmaster. For the trainer put a 10x4 APC prop, 60' lines, 5% N fuel set it just a few clicks rich for the first flight then adjust as needed. If you use the stock Fox needle valve put a short piece (like 1/4" ish) of silicon fuel tubing on the needle between the valve body and tension wheel to seal the threads (a common area of problems for the Fox NVA).

The Fox on the Ringmaster has been used for over 50 years but running a Fox for stunt is a bit of an art that most do because they want to run a Fox for nostalgic reasons not performance. 

Since you are just starting in stunt use the FP 20 on the Ringmaster with the Dirty Dan/Bret Buck setup. This combo will eliminate any engine issues and let you work on flying. Basically, stock out of box engine/2030 muffler, 9x4 APC prop, 10%N, tall narrow tank conventional vent with muffler pressure - originally they used 3-ounce Hayes plastic "RC" clunk tank but could probably use a Brodak - Large Profile Standard Vent Fuel Tank 3 oz. Item# BH-583 setup with muffler pressure to either vent (cap the other for flight). If the RM is too fast add a and intake air filter or a couple layers of pantyhose over the venture (can put a couple wraps of wire around to hold it on).

For a detail description of this  here is the link:  https://stunthanger.com/smf/engine-set-up-tips/the-recipe-for-20fps/msg2836/#msg2836 (or do a search on this forum for FP20 Buck it is the 4th item down).

Best,   DennisT

[Tim Wescott]

A 20FP is really too much even for a Ringmaster; with that engine on that plane your pilot would bore a hole in the ground.  Moreover, the modern Schneurle engines don't respond well to running rich -- if it's running reliably, it's at risk of getting on the step and running away.  If you just have to use that engine, plan on really restricting the intake either with a restricted venturi or use an RC carb at half throttle (close off the air bleed if you're going to use it at constant opening, though).

I'd put an old-style baffled 20 on it (or a Fox 29).  If you use a new Schneurle ported engine you probably want a 10 or a 15.

[Randy Powell]

I learned to fly on a Guillow Trainer III. Mine had a K&B Greenhead .35 and a 10x6 Top Flite

[TigreST]

I totally understand all the chat about modern FP this versus O.S. that.  .20 v .35 old school etc.  With all this knowledge I'd still say put a big lump on the front of that thing and go have fun.  To repeat myself with some details.  That Series -21 McCoy .35 pictured above allowed us to fly on long lines, Sullivan 70's footers pre-made out of the box, a Hot Rock handle and your done.  We were only learning ourselves so don't go thinking we had the whole c/l flying thing down cold, not by any stretch.  We could do wing-overs and inside loops but that was about it.  We were  15 and 16 years old and had no experience and no mentors to show the way.   The fine art of trimming a stunt model for competion was way beyond our skill set, didn't even know you could do that. We just bolted the engine on, fueled up and flew it.  No C.G. issues to contend with (that I think might present with the smaller motors maybe?) which is the main reason for this second post.  With that lump of a McCoy on the nose that thing was just a big ole bus that bore holes in the sky and did wing-overs and touch and goes (Perfect 2 1/2 wheels in use).  We didn't know any better.  The glide on engine out was great as I recall.  I use to let the engine quit while I had it way up in the circle and then would glide it for maybe a lap or so to touch down.    Did not have to worry about slack lines even at 70'ft length (unless your flying in a hurricane).  For sure lots of savvy chat here about what you could/should do and use for power,...but don't over think it and miss the fun of discovery for yourself.

T.

[Dave_Trible]

Scott I didn’t realize you were local to us.  Send me your address.  I’ll send over the engines you need for both those.  I have a couple handfuls of good McCoys, Foxes and Enyas.

Dave

K.I.S.S. ,  especially when learning.

[scott baird]

Scott I didn’t realize you were local to us.  Send me your address.  I’ll send over the engines you need for both those.  I have a couple handfuls of good McCoys, Foxes and Enyas.

Dave

K.I.S.S. ,  especially when learning.

Hi Dave. Thank you for the very generous offer. I appreciate it. PM sent to you.   

[scott baird]

Just wanted to say thanks to all for the information given to my question. No doubt it will help.

[Tim Wescott]

I totally understand all the chat about modern FP this versus O.S. that.  .20 v .35 old school etc.  With all this knowledge I'd still say put a big lump on the front of that thing and go have fun.

Yes, doing it at all is better than wringing your hands about doing it perfectly and never starting.  But still -- perfection, man!

[Dave_Trible]

Yes, doing it at all is better than wringing your hands about doing it perfectly and never starting.  But still -- perfection, man!

Thats really the best and fastest way to get ahead.  You can be drowned in too much 'knowledge' and simply confuse the issue.  Just get out there and go 'round and 'round.  But slow is better!.   Think back-(at least you older dudes) what did YOU learn on?  For me it was Scientific Stuka with a WenMac,  a Guillow's Rat Racer with a Red Head Mac .19 (actually the Trainer II ) and a Firecat with a Fox .35.

Dave

[Bob Lafayette]

A couple of Pics for reference.

[Dennis Leonhardi]

… No C.G. issues to contend with (that I think might present with the smaller motors maybe?) which is the main reason for this second post. …

T.

Thanks Tony, that's the first thing I thought of when engine possibilities were brought up.  I'd want a fairly nose heavy airplane as a starter, but then my preference is usually a bit more nose heavy than most others anyway …


Dennis

[TigreST]

For sure I’m pulling up very dated memories here but we ran that .McCoy35 pretty much peaked out, as once again we didn’t know any better.  The built in engine offset keeps the lines tight, don’t remember how the lead outs were placed ( no lead out slider for adjustment anyways).  The 70’ft lines gave one lots of altitude to play in.  It also helped keep lap times rather low ( no dizzy spells). As we were gifted the trainer it was already built and painted completely black, it was missing the profile canopy (didn’t know that it should have had one ) and had that tail tail sticking near enough straight up.  Ugly was an understatement.  But it was great fun to fly, and build time on.  If there is one mod I’d make I’d suggest checking the control system push rod for stiffness. If it flexes to any degree find some thing that doesn’t and replace it.   

[Tim Wescott]

Re-reading this whole thread:

If you have that kit, and the only engine you have is a 20FP -- go for it.  Run a 9-4 or a 10-4 prop.  Get it in the air.  Fly it.

Later, if it's going too fast, stop by a florists shop and get some of the nylon netting that they use to make bouquets pretty (you want the fine stuff, that has maybe 25 holes per inch or so).  Then cut that into squares and rubber-band them over the venturi.

But for goodness sake, get in the air first!

(And if you live close to someone who knows how to fly -- get some help first.  You can learn to fly on your own, but I can tell you from personal experience that if you do you'll also learn a lot about rebuilding crashed planes in the process of learning to fly.)

[Dave_Trible]

Scott has a care package of several better choices coming...........He also lives just on the other side of the city from us so we will get him to the field and in the air.   It's all good!

Dave

[scott baird]

Scott has a care package of several better choices coming...........He also lives just on the other side of the city from us so we will get him to the field and in the air.   It's all good!

Dave

Wow thanks Dave. It helps and look forward to flying with you guys. And thanks to everyone else for the input. Its pretty new to me so all is helpful. Should be sorted on the hardware now.

[Brett Buck]

Thanks Tony, that's the first thing I thought of when engine possibilities were brought up.  I'd want a fairly nose heavy airplane as a starter, but then my preference is usually a bit more nose heavy than most others anyway …

   Using a 15 or 20FP, there will be no CG issue, because they are as heavy as a Fox or McCoy 35 was in the old, pre-muffler days.

    But again, just use something that will start reliably in the range of a modern 15 on up, and it will be OK for its flight envelope.

    Note that this airplane, like almost all of them from back in the day, suffers from the "old 35" = "modern 15" problem. When they said use a "35", they were thinking Forster, Ohlsson, Fox - not an OS, ST, Magnum, TT, etc. I am actually building an airplane in this size range - for a Hornet .09! Almost anything will work for this size airplane.

     Brett

[Curt D Contrata]

Mine was powered by a well used McCoy 35. It was the first model I built, did loops and even flew it inverted!
My first plane/flight was a Black Cox Stuka a few months prior, did a figure 9 with it on Easter morning in 1970. My dad had built a Vero Squaw as his first and crashed after 3/4 of the first lap with a brand new slobbering rich Fox 35.

We should have both started with the Trainer 3!

Merry Christmas,

Curt

Btw, I have another kit with plans and original box if anyone is interested.

[TigreST]

Curt, PM sent.

[Bill Hummel]

Is there a source for plans for the trainer?

[Curt D Contrata]

Is there a source for plans for the trainer?

The plans in the kit were not full size, I will look to see if I still have the plan from the first one I built. My dad would sometimes trace parts on the back but I am sure you could easily scale up the plan. The most difficult part would be sanding in the airfoil on the plank wing, not hard, but very messy.

Curt

[James Holford]

Here yall go ,:)

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[Phillip Kenney]

I realize this topic is old but before I start a new thread. I too am building one of these airplanes. with the discussion about an engine that likes to run sloppy rich and develop enough power to go roundy round on 70' lines, what is your opinion of a Fox 25RC  bushing version with the throttle set wide open. I have a NIB one and considering the value of the engine on Ebay I would like to use it if possible.

[Dave_Trible]

That should be fine on 60' lines.  I think the 70' lines are way too much for both the engine and the airplane design.  In fact with the .25, 52' might not be too short.  I'd use .015x 58'.

Dave