Author Topic: the TRUTH about the Consequences (Read 5079 times)

peabody · « **on:** October 21, 2007, 02:02:37 PM »

Come on guys...look around! The vast majority of those participating in Stunt in the USA are into their fourth quarters! We look at forty five year olds and call them "kids". At the National Championships there are few Junior or Senior entries, and frequently those that do enter cannot fly an entire pattern. If ready made airplanes will lure newcomers, then we should welcome them with open arms at ANY level. Sure the "cottage industry" guys might be suffering...that's a whole different issue: we should not be making rule changes to help a few supplement their incomes.
The GSCB have four new members that are Juniors or Seniors this season...due, for the most part, to the availability of ARFs.

When I read about CLPA in Europe and Asia, I see what appears to be a significant number of Juniors and Seniors....is that due to the FAI rule that allows them to fly purchased airplanes?

We have to get into step with the rest of the Planet.

Steve Hand · « **Reply #1 on:** October 21, 2007, 02:23:30 PM »

Let me make an observation on my behalf only, as it relates to a portion of your post. I don't need to sell kits to suppliment my income. It is a hobby. There are some who post on here and on Stuka that I wouldn't even sell one to if I found myself hanging out at the Salvation Army needing a bed.

Jim Kraft · « **Reply #2 on:** October 21, 2007, 02:33:13 PM »

I feel kind of sorry for the guys flying arfs. Arfs have never been the problem. But without the BOM, there are world class stunters out there for sale. If you have been flying arfs for awhile, and don't know how to build, and one or two of the arf flyers in your flying area decide to outlay $4500.00 for that world beater all trimmed out and ready to go, what do you do? In order to stay competitive, you have to also lay out $4500.00. This should really grow the event.

Bob Reeves · « **Reply #3 on:** October 21, 2007, 03:53:35 PM »

Jim,

Don't feel a bit sorry for me I have been flying an ARF almost all season simply because it has better power than either one of my BOM airplanes and haven't had the time to find the engine answers for my two strokes..

I wouldn't (couldn't) buy even a $1000.00 airplane.. If I were to get beat by one all it means is I need to practice more.. I believe my Score/Saito can hang with the best in any conditions (not necessarily with me flying it but I really believe it's capable)..

I fully understand both sides of the BOM issue and have a foot in both camps but am favoring the foot in the non-BOM camp simply because I believe it will help grow the hobby..

Will Hinton · « **Reply #4 on:** October 21, 2007, 04:30:15 PM »

I have an ARF Tutor and it's a blast to fly and lots of fun, I really enjoy having it. I also have two scratch built stunters with PA's in them, and I love to fly them as well. This qualifies me to stand in the middle as far as the BOM vs ARF thing. The reason for my reply is a comment made by Rich that we need to catch up to the rest of the world. I strongly disagree. Let the rest of the world catch up with us - we started this thing called CLPA, why should we change because someone else is different? all the SAE. I refuse to dance to the rest of the world's drummer when we have our own that has been around for longer than theirs as far as CLPA. In closing - hurray for appearance points. (THAT should get some comments going!)
Blessings,
Will

Jim Kraft · « **Reply #5 on:** October 21, 2007, 06:49:10 PM »

Bob; You know I highly respect you and your flying, and I was not talking about you. I know you can build, and build well, and are an excellent flyer. It is just that I saw this same scenario in R/C pattern, and have first hand experience with what can and will probably happen. I know it is hard for you guys to see this side of it, and you probably think it won't happen, but we thought the same thing at one time. I do think it will grow the hobby a little for a while, but a few years down the road, once the door is open, and we have quite a few arf flyers that have never built a plane, it will become very expensive to stay competitive. I think you will agree that the equipment is a very big part of the flying, more so than in R/C pattern to my way of thinking. Otherwise, we would all still be flying Ringmasters.

I also can see both sides of this, and it really pains me to see all the bickering over it, as I came from the same environment 20 years ago. I don't even know why I get into these things, but I guess I just want people to think long and hard before they dump something that has been a part of stunt for years, and has worked so well. I have heard all the reasons to do this, and again, because of my past experience, I still have to lean towards keeping the BOM with all the problems that brings up also. I do think we are at the place that a compromise cannot be reached. It is all or nothing. That, I think, will hurt growth more than anything we can do to help it. I do hope I am wrong on all counts as I really like the people involved with stunt. I have made so many good friends in the last 15 years, and have really enjoyed the flying together. At times I really get fed up with all of the (debating) over the last five years. Before that I was ignorant and happy.

I have said my piece, and will stay out of the fray from now on.

Phil Spillman · « **Reply #6 on:** October 21, 2007, 07:19:26 PM »

With all due respect to those who build and who sell pre and partially built stunt planes, the BOM controversy is one of ultimate hypocrisy! People buy all sorts of almost built planes, take them home or receive same in the mail, paint them up and then claim BOM points! Bull! I fly ARF's and do well. I have built and flown my own stuff and really enjoyed the experience. I have received planes as gifts and have been beaten by "Pretty Points" which I also think is bull! Ours is a flying sport. Let the pretty point boys get the Concours Awards and be happy but don't beat me with purely pretty points when I've out flown you! I have said before do in the BOM in all of its phony forms and forget the "Good Old Days"! Stunt needs all the new blood it can get. Too many of us are growing older and fatter and grayer! We mess up our own event's future with all the BS over BOM! Do it in and be done with it! The rest of the world has moved on while we persist in keeping our heads in the sand! 1965 is over and gone! Forget about it and forget the BOM!

john e. holliday · « **Reply #7 on:** October 21, 2007, 07:32:52 PM »

I am going to say this once, "If I get beat because the other plane is prettier, it means I need to practice more". I don't practice/train enough as I don't want to get serious about this. If I ever get serious, watch out as I don't think I would be a person to hang around with. Have fun, DOC Holliday

PS:I am waiting for the ballots on the rules proposals to get here. jeh

billbyles · « **Reply #8 on:** October 22, 2007, 12:10:09 AM »

Quote from: Phil Spillman on October 21, 2007, 07:19:26 PM

I have received planes as gifts and have been beaten by "Pretty Points" which I also think is bull!

If you don't like getting beaten by "pretty points" then you should learn how to build and finish (or if you already know how then find the inspiration to do so) so that you can get more "pretty points" instead of whining and trying your best to get the system changed to suit you.

Quote

Ours is a flying sport.

That would be your opinion, Phil.

Quote

Let the pretty point boys get the Concours Awards and be happy but don't beat me with purely pretty points when I've out flown you! I have said before do in the BOM in all of its phony forms and forget the "Good Old Days"! Stunt needs all the new blood it can get. Too many of us are growing older and fatter and grayer! We mess up our own event's future with all the BS over BOM! Do it in and be done with it! The rest of the world has moved on while we persist in keeping our heads in the sand! 1965 is over and gone! Forget about it and forget the BOM!

Why don't you start your very own event and quit whining about how you are getting beaten by "pretty points?"

Bradley Walker · « **Reply #9 on:** October 22, 2007, 05:35:23 AM »

Quote from: billbyles on October 22, 2007, 12:10:09 AM

If you don't like getting beaten by "pretty points" then you should learn how to build and finish (or if you already know how then find the inspiration to do so) so that you can get more "pretty points" instead of whining and trying your best to get the system changed to suit you.

Why don't you start your very own event and quit whining about how you are getting beaten by "pretty points?"

Bill,

I would like to address this "whining" thing that keeps being thrown around.

This is Shear Panic, built in two weeks, painted in 4 hours 4th row Nats 2002:

This is Mr. Hyde, Doug cut part of the tail off in the hotel room at the Nats and still managed to get 4th row Nats 2003:

This Dr. Jekyll which never went ot the Nats, but the finish is superior to the previous two:

I think it is time for the BOM to go. Am I a whiner that just wants to change the event because I do not know how to build or finish?

Doug Moon, whiner because he does not not know how to build and finish?

Steve Moon, whiner because he does not not know how to build and finish?

I think you would be hard pressed to say that any one of these is giving away a lot of points when it comes to appearance judging time, yet amazingly enough we will hear words like "whiner" used. In fact, the explanation of "well you do not know how to build" comes up all the time, even given ample evidence to the contrary.

Not to mention I could post others, but I do not need to. Some of the best builders in the country support eliminating the BOM. Explain that.

Bob Reeves · « **Reply #10 on:** October 22, 2007, 08:40:59 AM »

You know what, this thread is a wake up call for me.. I have seen stunt politics destroy too many good friendships..

Jim Kraft is a great guy that I have allot of respect for, Internet forums are dangerous and not the place to be talking about differences in viewpoints.. You just can't see the whole picture (at least I can't) and sometimes end up making assumptions that are typically wrong..

I am going to try my damnedest to stay out of these discussions, it ain't good for the hobby and it ain't good for friendships...

Steve Fitton · « **Reply #11 on:** October 22, 2007, 09:59:12 AM »

A bit off topic, but I did hear that Doug Moon IS a whiner when he thinks Kent Tysor is cheating him at the go-kart track!

Steve

Shultzie · « **Reply #12 on:** October 22, 2007, 10:35:37 AM »

Humm?
Kinda illustrates to me....just how impossible for any mortal to begin to think that one can HONESTLY AND ACCURATELY GIVE THE CORRECT NUMBER OF BOM APPEARENCE POINTS to these beautiful examples of stunt model art...knowing for certain that only a point or two can make or break who placed 1st, 2nd, 3rd or GOD knows where?

Seems clear to this ol' grunt that I could not in all honesty....judge accurately who has the puritist' model? Guess it all boils down to the personal preferences of the judging staff huh and the "beat goes on and on and on....about the plus and minus's of the old tattered BOM rule and its viability??

John Sunderland · « **Reply #13 on:** October 22, 2007, 06:42:39 PM »

Hey Brad,
Im on the same page as you and our contempories.....check my comments on the other forum!

Sunderland

Doug Moon · « **Reply #14 on:** October 22, 2007, 09:03:55 PM »

Quote from: Steve Fitton on October 22, 2007, 09:59:12 AM

A bit off topic, but I did hear that Doug Moon IS a whiner when he thinks Kent Tysor is cheating him at the go-kart track!

Steve

HEY!! He did cheat me!!!

If I ever get back there I will cheat him and then say I didnt do it. Just like BOM if I say i didnt do it, it must be true.

Steve, you did good in the contest. Keep after them you almost had them this time!!! Once you conquer them once it is up to them to come get you!!!!

Just look at the picture of me. Can you believe that skinny fart made the top 5 that year! Can you believe that? Man it was awesome. I was sleeping between rounds because I didnt sleep the night before. Steve had to wake me up for one of the rounds if I remember correctly.

The next year that same plane got 17 points!! Yep, 3nd row buddy!! What a great plane it has been. Still kick ass with it today!!

Iskandar Taib · « **Reply #15 on:** October 22, 2007, 11:06:27 PM »

Quote from: Bradley Walker on October 22, 2007, 05:35:23 AM

Bill,

This is Shear Panic, built in two weeks, painted in 4 hours 4th row Nats 2002:

This is Mr. Hyde, Doug cut part of the tail off in the hotel room at the Nats and still managed to get 4th row Nats 2003:

This Dr. Jekyll which never went ot the Nats, but the finish is superior to the previous two:

And then there's mine...

(It _is_ BOM...)

John Sunderland · « **Reply #16 on:** October 23, 2007, 04:47:10 AM »

Brad....saw Joe G with Mr. Hyde in Memphis....she purty but flies like a pig! LOL
Just razzin ya. Joe told me how he acquired said airplane. You stay away from my Nobler!

Speaking of Joe.....you got his number? Email me.

Bradley Walker · « **Reply #17 on:** October 23, 2007, 07:27:04 AM »

Quote from: John Sunderland on October 23, 2007, 04:47:10 AM

Brad....saw Joe G with Mr. Hyde in Memphis....she purty but flies like a pig! LOL
Just razzin ya. Joe told me how he acquired said airplane. You stay away from my Nobler!

Speaking of Joe.....you got his number? Email me.

I am Nobler Death...

Poor Mr. Hyde. You be nice.

That guy has been rebuilt more than the 6 Million Dollar Man!!! The controls have been fixed three times (Doug has a picture somewhere of an Exacto knife sticking out of the fuselage). The entire bottom of the outboard wing is 1 oz fiberglass. The flaps are sheeted in plywood, and Joe STILL goes around kicking everyone's butt with it.

Big Art liked it. I was happy to hear that.

Doug Moon · « **Reply #18 on:** October 23, 2007, 08:41:28 AM »

Yes I do have that pic but no scanner. That was a fateful day for the hyde canopy.

"I am Nobler Death..." That is funny!!

Dennis Adamisin · « **Reply #19 on:** October 23, 2007, 10:24:49 PM »

Hi folks
There are strong points to be made on either side of the BOM debate. While I beleive in retaining BOM I cannot dismiss ALL the opposing POV. Still, (as Tom N pointed out) there will be consequences. None of us has a perfcet crystal ball, but based on what is happening in other areas it is pretty easy to make a couple reasonable predictions about CLPA cottage industries post-BOM:

* Top Flite introduced their ARF Nobler and Flite Streak in a BOM world, and they have been successful enough that they followed up with the Score & Tutor-2. BOM has proven not to be a barrier. Brodak keeps bring out more ARF's, and ARC's to get around the BOM. It is hard to discredit their success with both newbie and experienced CLPA'ers. Other manufacturers are rumored to be ready to get in the game. Without BOM - it could encourage the "big" companies to jump in even deeper with more CLPA choices. Frankly that don't sound all that bad to get a nod from the big players. Problem is I do not see it advancing the state of the CLPA art. Is that important?

* Here in the midwest I have witnessed that in RC one of the growing "cottage industry" is people who commision experienced modelers to build their ARF for them; that is assemble it, install the engine & radio and maybe even test fly it. In CL we have some reasonable ARF's available, but they can be made better - rounding off the leading edges, fortifying the control systems, clipping the flaps (you had to know that was coming

) and the like. Not hard to imagine my small cottage industry in the post BOM future "dennis-izing" even an entry level ARF for folks who were unwilling or unable to assemble one, or who wanted one they thought I could modify/improve. LEVEL 2: Customize the ARF (actually ARC) with a new one-of-a kind color scheme of your choice - for a fee of course!

* Until recently I was active in RC Sailplanes. "Over there" they crossed the $2500 per airplane barrier several years ago - moldie airplanes are now the norm. In most cases their techniques and methods are directly applicable to CLPA birds with hardly a stretch. The ariplanes are well made, accurate and durable - not a bad investment - IF you have $2500 (plus engine) lying around! In my new cottage industry why bother with a few dozen $100 laser short kits if I can sell a $2500 moldie?

* Don't beleive it? Have you visited Windy's website where he will sell you $400 CF fuselage to use on your new $1100 composite wing?

* Of course, CLPA has a strong subjective element. As such those who buy expensive birds are going to be percieved as really out there. The top of the line birds will be all composite, with plug in wings and stabs for shipping. Those who own and fly these will be PERCEIVED as being the best, whether they are or not. Those who persist in "old school" methods will be seen as dynosaurs and will NOT be competitive. If you doubt that last statement then re-visit what is happening today when people who fly classic designs in regular CLPA are always at a disadvantage REGARDLESS of their performance. Another example as old as OTS when it was contemporary - how many people have you seen get more points because of their engine used - not their flying. IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME. The point is the subjective element exists, and those who buy expensive also are buying subjective points.

BTW, be prepared to be smoked because your 3 month old $2500 bird has now been obsolesced by the newest $2600 bird that is now the class on the block....

I dunno guys, the non-BOM people have good points to make, and frankly I can make money in a post BOM world. I just do not know if that outweighs the consequences...

Iskandar Taib · « **Reply #20 on:** October 23, 2007, 11:14:16 PM »

Quote from: Dennis Adamisin on October 23, 2007, 10:24:49 PM

* Here in the midwest I have witnessed that in RC one of the growing "cottage industry" is people who commision experienced modelers to build their ARF for them; that is assemble it, install the engine & radio and maybe even test fly it.

Not just there, either. I have a friend who is soooo busy putting together ARFs for other people that he hardly has time to fly his own stuff.

Bradley Walker · « **Reply #21 on:** October 24, 2007, 06:00:27 AM »

Quote from: Dennis Adamisin on October 23, 2007, 10:24:49 PM

BTW, be prepared to be smoked because your 3 month old $2500 bird has now been obsolesced by the newest $2600 bird that is now the class on the block....

I am sorry, I have to disagree with this 100 million percent.

This simply does not happen in our event. When was the last time a design came out and obsoleted the previous designs? Ever? No.

I made the point UHP is considered to have "cutting edge" PAMAP ship kits, and they are more than 20 years old.

John Sunderland · « **Reply #22 on:** October 24, 2007, 06:36:12 AM »

Brad it is good to hear from you and Dougie/ Steve also. Can you believe it has been 12 years since we three flew our first Nats together in Advanced? It would be nice to share the flight line and pits again....only thing that might make it better would be if Dennis came out to play with us kids. Im sure Kenny and others our age would be able to swap some stories from our era..ie the 70's...over 30 years ago. I had my first grandchild this summer and it would be nice to chat with a group of my peers that doesnt consider ME a kid!

Dennis Adamisin · « **Reply #23 on:** October 24, 2007, 03:32:00 PM »

Quote from: Bradley Walker on October 24, 2007, 06:00:27 AM

I am sorry, I have to disagree with this 100 million percent.

This simply does not happen in our event. When was the last time a design came out and obsoleted the previous designs? Ever? No.

I made the point UHP is considered to have "cutting edge" PAMAP ship kits, and they are more than 20 years old.

Hi Brad
I guess I wasn't clear, in keping with the line of thought that preceded that statement, its the PERCEPTION that the newest latest greatest and most expensive must be the best, not the REALITY that it actually is. (forgive me???

)

Jim Oliver · « **Reply #24 on:** October 24, 2007, 03:37:18 PM »

No intent to hi-jack the thread---but,

John, good to meet you in Memphis--please excuse me for thinking you might have been the "other guy".
Also, glad to have you aboard.

Cheers,
Jim

Bradley Walker · « **Reply #25 on:** October 24, 2007, 04:36:44 PM »

Quote from: Dennis Adamisin on October 24, 2007, 03:32:00 PM

Hi Brad
I guess I wasn't clear, in keping with the line of thought that preceded that statement, its the PERCEPTION that the newest latest greatest and most expensive must be the best, not the REALITY that it actually is. (forgive me??? )

In stunt, that can have a real effect... Call them "cool kid points".

Bradley Walker · « **Reply #26 on:** October 24, 2007, 04:45:38 PM »

Quote from: John Sunderland on October 24, 2007, 06:36:12 AM

Brad it is good to hear from you and Dougie/ Steve also. Can you believe it has been 12 years since we three flew our first Nats together in Advanced? It would be nice to share the flight line and pits again....

Yup.

John Sunderland · « **Reply #27 on:** October 24, 2007, 10:55:30 PM »

Bless your heart Brad..... that is the pic my Dad took of both of us...one of the best weeks of my life! Im glad he gave you one. I am a boat load grayer now, my hair is longer....and I look just like a Rolling Stone! LOL

Bradley Walker · « **Reply #28 on:** October 25, 2007, 05:43:36 AM »

Quote from: John Sunderland on October 24, 2007, 10:55:30 PM

Bless your heart Brad..... that is the pic my Dad took of both of us...one of the best weeks of my life! Im glad he gave you one. I am a boat load grayer now, my hair is longer....and I look just like a Rolling Stone! LOL

There we stand. I am holding the plane I designed and built on the floor in my sister's house. You holding your original design. Not a bad first Nats for a couple of BOM whiners. I wonder how many people these days ever design their own planes? Much less at that level.

Circlejerk · « **Reply #29 on:** October 25, 2007, 09:05:28 AM »

I guess for me, the most amusing part of all of heated discussion about "The BOM" is that the defenders continue to defend it in its revised form with an almost religious fervor. Problem is... the current interpreted and adopted BOM is more like "Assembler of the model". This new, watered down, poor excuse of a rule doesn't capture the intent of the original rule nor adheres to the traditional heritage.

Me thinks you need a real BOM before you can defend it. Current form misses the mark by a wide margin.

Iskandar Taib · « **Reply #30 on:** October 25, 2007, 08:29:30 PM »

Quote from: Bradley Walker on October 25, 2007, 05:43:36 AM

I wonder how many people these days ever design their own planes? Much less at that level.

Not at "that level", but:

Bill Little · « **Reply #31 on:** October 25, 2007, 08:44:48 PM »

Quote

Me thinks you need a real BOM before you can defend it. Current form misses the mark by a wide margin.

Hi Ben,

Can't argue your point at all! We all know that the "interpretation" was a hastily devised stop gap measure to fend off the threat of protests. Would those protests actually have taken place?? I doubt it..........

I love the tradition, love to build my own stuff, and do feel somewhat offended when I go to a contest and the BOM/AP are not in effect. But it hasn't stopped me from going because my love of the people and flying these models among my friends (both of them! even though there are probably 50-100 people at the meets LOL!!) will continue to drive my enjoyment.

Bradley Walker · « **Reply #32 on:** October 26, 2007, 04:44:08 AM »

Quote from: Bill Little on October 25, 2007, 08:44:48 PM

Hi Ben,

Can't argue your point at all! We all know that the "interpretation" was a hastily devised stop gap measure to fend off the threat of protests. Would those protests actually have taken place?? I doubt it..........

That might have stuck if taken to the AMA!!!

IMHO, the reason for the "interpretation" was there were a lot of pilots that were not following the rules, and a protest, if taken to the AMA, *might* have been successful. The truth is that there is a majority of people who do not WANT the old BOM standard at the Nats. People want to be able to buy ARFs, ARCs, pre-fabbed components, sheeted wings, wings, etc. Many others SUPPLY these components who go to the Nats.

peabody · « **Reply #33 on:** October 26, 2007, 05:50:00 AM »

Actually Bill...
I wrote stating that I intended to fly both Advanced and Open and that I wanted the BOM clarified......
And, yes, I would have protested a bunch....
There needed (and still needs) to be a REAL clarification of the BOM.
I found it interesting that Wornout and the elite decided to alter the ability to enter both Open and Advanced at the Nats....no vote, or public hearing, just CHANGE THE RULE. I found this more significant than the BOM ruling....for years the PAMPAettes had argued that folks that flew Expert locally were not sandbagging when they flew Advanced at the Nats, and that they were two entirely different issues.
Work interfered with my Nats adventure....

John Sunderland · « **Reply #34 on:** October 26, 2007, 07:53:02 AM »

Quote from: Bradley Walker on October 25, 2007, 05:43:36 AM

There we stand. I am holding the plane I designed and built on the floor in my sister's house. You holding your original design. Not a bad first Nats for a couple of BOM whiners. I wonder how many people these days ever design their own planes? Much less at that level.

Yup not bad for a couple of dudes that 12 years later still build the entire plane from scratch...with no purchased surfaces of carbon fuses etc.

Bill Little · « **Reply #35 on:** October 26, 2007, 10:10:11 AM »

Quote from: Bradley Walker on October 26, 2007, 04:44:08 AM

That might have stuck if taken to the AMA!!!

IMHO, the reason for the "interpretation" was there were a lot of pilots that were not following the rules, and a protest, if taken to the AMA, *might* have been successful. The truth is that there is a majority of people who do not WANT the old BOM standard at the Nats. People want to be able to buy ARFs, ARCs, pre-fabbed components, sheeted wings, wings, etc. Many others SUPPLY these components who go to the Nats.

I fully understand, Brad.

Bill Little · « **Reply #36 on:** October 26, 2007, 10:13:57 AM »

Quote from: peabody on October 26, 2007, 05:50:00 AM

Actually Bill...
I wrote stating that I intended to fly both Advanced and Open and that I wanted the BOM clarified......
And, yes, I would have protested a bunch....
There needed (and still needs) to be a REAL clarification of the BOM.
I found it interesting that Wornout and the elite decided to alter the ability to enter both Open and Advanced at the Nats....no vote, or public hearing, just CHANGE THE RULE. I found this more significant than the BOM ruling....for years the PAMPAettes had argued that folks that flew Expert locally were not sandbagging when they flew Advanced at the Nats, and that they were two entirely different issues.
Work interfered with my Nats adventure....

HI Rich,

I screwed up on my '96 NATS entry when I sent it in. I marked "Open" (since I am in that age group) and Advanced (since that was the event I was flying in). I received a reply that I could only enter "ONE" Aerobatics event...... When I got there, my preprinted badge read "OPEN". So that's what I had to fly! LOL!!

Bradley Walker · « **Reply #37 on:** October 26, 2007, 10:15:17 AM »

Quote from: Bill Little on October 26, 2007, 10:10:11 AM

I fully understand, Brad.

Bill gets it!!!

Ron King · « **Reply #38 on:** October 26, 2007, 10:25:18 AM »

Quote from: Bradley Walker on October 26, 2007, 10:15:17 AM

Bill gets it!!!

For an ex-football jock who played many years with a leather helmet, Bill is actually semi-literate.

Bill Little · « **Reply #39 on:** October 26, 2007, 10:41:40 AM »

Quote from: Ron King on October 26, 2007, 10:25:18 AM

For an ex-football jock who played many years with a leather helmet, Bill is actually semi-literate.

Years ago, I couldn't spell techer, nows I are one.........

Leo Mehl · « **Reply #40 on:** October 26, 2007, 11:15:15 AM »

My take on this is have a contest wher you split the BOM rule dowm the middle. Have a bueaty contest and a flying contest. Make it two swpwrate events and see what happens. It will in some ways give everyone a look into the future/ To me my competition days are almost over and should not even have a opinion about this. But I still feel that there is real pride in building a really nice looking model. I would sa that there is a large no. of builders that are not capable or have the resourses to build a world class model but are very good flyers that do get great points for what they do. When I turned to expert last year I did it not because I was a first class builder but so I could slow down a little. After all I will be flying against word champs and in our district there are a lot of them. BOM rule is not going to hurt me. I say Leave the rule in and make it twoo events. NO harm done. My opinion. ARF's are here to stay so may as well get used to it.

Dennis Moritz · « **Reply #41 on:** October 26, 2007, 11:29:09 AM »

I got 9 points at the NATs in classic for my Galaxy. A generous score. Didn't finish last either. Though I haven't mastered the building skills (maybe I can do a 13 or 14) I'm in favor of BOM. The modified rule presented earlier this month makes sense to me.