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Author Topic: The greatest stunt ships that have never been published. Name your candidate!  (Read 14181 times)

Offline Vincent Judd

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Ski Dombrowski's  "Lace Maker"

I remember seeing this airplane at some of the East Coast contests back in the day.  It was amazing, the pictures don't do it justice. 

Did Ski just get tired of stunt and quit the hobby? 

Online Ted Fancher

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Yeah Me too for the Lace Maker!  What a gorgeous airplane!.  I tend to doubt, however that very many people would actually want to attempt to build one!  Worse than a big stick and tissue model to construct!

Anyone know how well it actually flew?

Randy Cuberly

Randy,

The damn thing was so beautiful I was afraid to watch actual flights.  Ski had dozens of pictures of the construction of the Lace Maker and it's my understanding that the official tally of practice flights among contestants was down by 32.766% from the average due to pilots rifling through them to learn his tricks. 

Surprise!  It won the Concours!

Ted

Online Ted Fancher

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   I have some very nice CAD plans by Jack Pitcher, just needs a few tweaks, but I have sort of lost any momentum on the project. A few copies have gotten out, and most of them fly pretty much like I wanted, so they must be pretty close.

      Brett

Shoot, one of them Infinite copies won the 2010 Junior World Championships in Hungary beating a pack of very good young contestants, several of whom were flying state of the art Yatsenkos. 

Good design + good pilot.  Tough to beat.

Online Ted Fancher

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Putting this one in the mix Bob "Champione" Lampione's  PM classic, which to my knowledge
this PM version was never published.

Stunning!

Online Ted Fancher

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There are many ships that fit into this category. Unfortunately many of them will never be published because actual plans do not exist, nor have ever existed. Let me 'splain...

clip

A good example of this is my pick for the most beautiful non-published design of all time, the Stiletto 700 by three-time World Champion, Les McDonald. I have the original templates from which that model's wing was cut, but, sadly, the model no longer exists, and Les did not draw any formal plans for it.
 
clip

Bob Hunt

Can't argue with Bubba on this one. 

By the way, those who say "old designs" can't compete with today's "state of the art" ones must never have seen Les fly in his prime.  I flew a trip to a Miami layover back in the '70s or so and conned Les into taking me flying with him...I'd launch and watch and he'd fly.  After watching half a dozen or so I realized that what I'd been so proud of doing myself left a lot to be desired.  I went home and worked harder.  Come 1982 I had gotten better and accompanied the then defending World Champ Les to the WCs in Sweden.  After he kicked everybody's butts to win his second in a row WC I again went home feeling much the same way as I did the first time I shared a field with him.

At the end of my long "career" flying the things I had seen a lot of great flights by a lot of great pilots...none of which I could say with assurance were more accurate than what I saw in Miami a few decades previously.

I hasten to point out that both cases of which I wrote were under pretty ideal conditions.  I think the primary advances we've seen in design were in the area of extending the conditions under which modern designs, properly trimmed, can retain high levels of consistently accurate patterns.

A quick story just so Les' head doesn't get quite as swelled as it might otherwise.

At one of the Nebraska Nats back in the eighties the winds were howling all week long but Les had still qualified for the then fairly new top five flyoff.  As the competitors all struggled to get through patterns Les had been mugged twice by the wind as he started the four leaf clovers and was, as a result, pretty much out of contention.  He, of course, flew his third flight nonetheless and, again, made it through all the maneuvers up to the piece de resistance...the last clover of Les' battle.

As he gamely struggled to get the reluctant Stiletto to 45 degrees to enter he turned his head back towards the judges and shouted to the judges so all could hear: "Look out! Here she comes again!"

Ted

Offline Ron Varnas

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Wow! is this true the 'Lacemaker' still exists ?  ???  ........in theory if true a plan could be tabulated of it, though
I think the chances might be slim as there was an older thread on the 'Lacemaker' started by yours truly, beleive
Ski's a private type of guy need to respect the designers wishes. Bob Hunt knows the background better than me.

RJV Melb. Australia

Offline Scott Richlen

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Bob:

Those are really good-looking planes!  At least you have the rib templates and that's a start!  If we could just find someone in the stunt community that could scan these things and then play with the scans...

Wouldn't that be neat?

Offline Ron Varnas

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+ 1 Ryans Eagle & + 1 Stiletto 700  y1
RJV Melb. Australia

Offline Skip Chernoff

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Frank your award was very much deserved,it's a beauty. Great color choices.

Offline Les McDonald

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  • " The Jelly Man"

Another beautiful Les McDonald original was his Tropicaire. Les freely admits that it was just a mildly restyled Jim Kostecky-designed Formula S, but it had a character all its own. I'd build one for Super 70s if plans existed... 

Bob Hunt

Actually Randy Smith has a set of plans for the Tropicaire. I marked them up several years ago as a favor to him.
Oh, and thanks for the vote on the Stiletto 700 but I still personally think it wasn't very special looking!

                                                                                                                     Les
I see people my age out there climbing mountains and zip lining and here I am feeling good about myself because I got my leg through my underwear without losing my balance

Offline Air Ministry .

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Back in 76 ,the Shark 45 ( Squalo ? ) , Stilletto , a Australian .46 Caudron , ( all High A/R ) and THIS is what ' did it ' for me .
But I thought the Canopy was BLUE .


Same with Compostellas Mc 202 , for decades Id assumed it was Green Squiggles over tan/sand .
Someone kindly sent a COLOUR picture . Brown over Yellow . :( reminiscint of a bays bottom in pongy posterior mode .
Most Dissapointing .
 LL~

Wonder how much Ted was influenced by this & the Novi III,  or just coincidental similarity .
Has me inclined to do a hybrid , or scale up the A A E to Tation Size & see if its differant .  S?P

Oops , thats been published . . .

Heres a earlieish version of the multiple Reg Towell Caudron C 460s . Tho there IS a Plan about .



Offline Ron Varnas

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"the Shark 45 ( Squalo ? )" = Please translate ?
RJV Melb. Australia

Offline Air Ministry .

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Squalo's were ' all the rage ' in the 60's , what with Ferrari's ' Super squalo ' etc , being Italian for JAWS , er' shark ' .

Was a semi elliptic decale , letters S Q U A L O , in shape of a Shark . Sure ive seen it on plane in a Shark 45 advert ,
and maybe in Italian ' Shark' Kit . maybe the 35 ?? .

Offline Ron Varnas

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Thanks for the davinci code :) Reg's Caudron plan is available Peter White & Tom Dixon has them on their lists
RJV Melb. Australia

Offline Steve Helmick

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Peter White Plans has the “Venus” plan available......and many others!
https://sites.google.com/site/fullcircleflyers/home/plans

Pretty sure that would be Doug Grinham's "Venus". It's not like it's an original name, since Bob Palmer also used it in the early '50's.

While on the topic, Joe Dill's "Chipmunk" (RSM kit, may disqualify it from being published in SN). Also, Bob Emmett's "Howard Ike" would be great. I sent most of Bob's original drawings to somebody who was going to do CAD drawings and somebody else was going to consider laser cutting some kits. Both were pretty airplanes. Maybe PW could give an idea of how well they flew? Not sure when Paul arrived here on the scene.  D>K Steve
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Offline Scott Richlen

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Matt:

Are you nominating the All American Eagle?  Has it been published (are its plans available?)

Offline Ron Varnas

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Scott,

Come on give it up Bubba mentioned the "Silver Lancer" pic please  ::)
RJV Melb. Australia

Offline Scott Richlen

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I couldn't find a picture of the first Silver Lancer (which was actually painted silver.)  Here is the second rendition.

Offline Ron Varnas

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I couldn't find a picture of the first Silver Lancer (which was actually painted silver.)  Here is the second rendition.




Very nice indeed Scott !, can see why Bob was chasing you on this,

Your pic IMG title says "A different Pole Dancer" no relation to John Ashfords design or a play on words)
RJV Melb. Australia

Online Dave_Trible

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Sigh... The Air Boss was another one of those ships that was "built on the wood." No plans exist. Both Gene and Bob had similar ships that year, and each of them pulled out all the stops (and the strength...) to keep them as light as possible. They weighed in at under 40 ounces! The Air Boss would be an easy one to draw if we had only one known dimension. The photos would suffice to allow an accurate reconstruction. They had what we called the "Super Wing." I cut them both (for the Air Boss and for Bob Lampione's Pisces), and still have those templates.

Attached here is a photo of Gene's Air Boss and Bob's Pisces. By the way, the name Air Boss refers to the guy who use to stand on a carrier deck and wave airplanes aboard. Gene took a lot of heat for that moniker...

Bob Hunt 

PS: Ty Marcucci just messaged me that I was wrong about the duties of the Air Boss. He was a career Navy man, so he should know. Perhaps Ty will fill us in on the actual duties of the Air Boss (either way it was a dumb name for a stunt model...) - Bob
Bob if I could talk you into tracing off those templates and mailing them to me and any more photos you might have I’ll have a go at trying to make a (long hand) drawing.  If we think it’s pretty close then maybe you can use those templates again to cut me a wing. 

Dave
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Online Rick Campbell

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Bob . . . How about Bill Simons'  ship called Yank (or Yankee)?  I remember a photo of it in MAN's R&R column. Got any photos of that one?

Online Bob Hunt

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Hi Rick:

Your wish is my command! Attached here is a photo of the second Yank (there were two). I borrowed this ship for an extended period when I was heavy into motorcycling and had no practice ship. It flew just great and was very honest. It's another case of a model being "built on the wood" with no plans drawn. Sigh...

Later - Bob

Offline Scott Richlen

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Quote
Bob if I could talk you into tracing off those templates and mailing them to me and any more photos you might have I’ll have a go at trying to make a (long hand) drawing.  If we think it’s pretty close then maybe you can use those templates again to cut me a wing. 

Dave

Now it's starting to get interesting!!

Obvious candidate for a Stunt News feature article if Dave pulls it off!

Online Mike Ferguson

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I've been told that there are programs that can examine a photo that was taken at any given angle, and if only one dimension on the photo is a known one, then the rest of the dimensions can be extrapolated. Perhaps this may be an acceptable way to reclaim some of these great, non-published designs


I may have access to such a program (and more importantly, someone who knows what he's doing with it).

Let me see what I can do with a few of these pictures. As long as the airfoil templates are known, the rest may not be super difficult to recreate.

Online Mike Ferguson

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Hi Rick:

Your wish is my command! Attached here is a photo of the second Yank (there were two). I borrowed this ship for an extended period when I was heavy into motorcycling and had no practice ship. It flew just great and was very honest. It's another case of a model being "built on the wood" with no plans drawn. Sigh...

Later - Bob

I may start with this. I have a known starting dimension - the Max 35 muffler size.

Offline Scott Richlen

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Ron:

Quote
Your pic IMG title says "A different Pole Dancer" no relation to John Ashfords design or a play on words)

This picture was taken at Brodaks quite a few years before John Ashford's Pole Dancer.  I forgot the name of the photographer, but he always took terrific shots of the planes.  I think he named the picture that because he unintentionally got the pole in the shot.  Ooops.

Offline Scott Richlen

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Ty:

The first one is my rebuilt Silver Lancer, the second is Banjock's Mustang.  My SL was initially Silver, after the rebuild it was blue and grey, as you can see.  Sorta hard to call it a "Silver" Lancer at this point.

The idea was embedded long ago by a plan in American Modeler for a free-flight based on the Bill Barnes Silver Lancer from 1937 Flying Aces magazine.  Here it is in CL.

Online Rick Campbell

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Where's that damned computer program that can give us some dimensions!  The Yank . . . THAT'S my super-70s / N30 design.  Any photos of the other one, Bob?
« Last Edit: April 29, 2018, 07:44:37 AM by Rick Campbell »

Offline De Hill

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Ron:

This picture was taken at Brodaks quite a few years before John Ashford's Pole Dancer.  I forgot the name of the photographer, but he always took terrific shots of the planes.  I think he named the picture that because he unintentionally got the pole in the shot.  Ooops.

Photographer : Elwyn Aud?
De Hill

Offline Dennis Adamisin

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Ron:

This picture was taken at Brodaks quite a few years before John Ashford's Pole Dancer.  I forgot the name of the photographer, but he always took terrific shots of the planes.  I think he named the picture that because he unintentionally got the pole in the shot.  Ooops.

John Ashford named it Pole Dancer.

BTW, I  have always thought the Silver Lancer was a great design theme that deserves to be published - get drawin & writin!.
Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

As I've grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake!

Offline Ron Varnas

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Ok guys that solves the Pole Dancer mystery thanks ;D
RJV Melb. Australia

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Hi Rick:

Your wish is my command! Attached here is a photo of the second Yank (there were two). I borrowed this ship for an extended period when I was heavy into motorcycling and had no practice ship. It flew just great and was very honest. It's another case of a model being "built on the wood" with no plans drawn. Sigh...

Later - Bob

Hi Bob,

Nice looking airplane.  Is that a "Guppy" wing and tail.  I know your wing was used to create a lot of stunt planes!

Randy Cuberly
Randy Cuberly
Tucson, AZ

Offline Doug Moon

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I vote for Bob G's 03 Bear.  I still fly it today, it kicks ass!

Doug Moon
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Online Mike Ferguson

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Where's that damned computer program that can give us some dimensions!  The Yank . . . THAT'S my super-70s / N30 design.  Any photos of the other one, Bob?

AutoDesk makes some that could fit the bill. Testing it out with some Yank photos this week.

Online Rick Campbell

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Thanks, Mike . . . Very cool!

AutoDesk makes some that could fit the bill. Testing it out with some Yank photos this week.

Offline Les McDonald

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  • " The Jelly Man"
Can't argue with Bubba on this one. 

By the way, those who say "old designs" can't compete with today's "state of the art" ones must never have seen Les fly in his prime.  I flew a trip to a Miami layover back in the '70s or so and conned Les into taking me flying with him...I'd launch and watch and he'd fly.  After watching half a dozen or so I realized that what I'd been so proud of doing myself left a lot to be desired.  I went home and worked harder.  Come 1982 I had gotten better and accompanied the then defending World Champ Les to the WCs in Sweden.  After he kicked everybody's butts to win his second in a row WC I again went home feeling much the same way as I did the first time I shared a field with him.

At the end of my long "career" flying the things I had seen a lot of great flights by a lot of great pilots...none of which I could say with assurance were more accurate than what I saw in Miami a few decades previously.


I remember that visit oh so well but not the flying part. No doubt I did take Ted with me to the flying field because that's what I did everyday and I'm sure I milked some coaching tips from him because I "used" everyone that I could.
In The Stiletto Chronicles I expounded on my insecurities and I'm sure they were on high alert while flying in front of Ted but if this is what he remembers, well, good for me. I love Ted Fancher, in a manly man way. If we were pirates during the younger years our stories of daring do would make Captain Jack Sparrow look like a little girl.
I see people my age out there climbing mountains and zip lining and here I am feeling good about myself because I got my leg through my underwear without losing my balance

Offline Trostle

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While we are on the subject of "greatest stunt ships that have never been published", one candidate would be Lou Dudka's F-16 from the mid 70's.  Maybe Bob Hunt can provide pictures.  The design can be characterized more as "caricature" semi-scale as there is no way a true scale F-16 could in no way be made into a CLPA model.  But Lou's rendition captured the "look" of the F-16 in an impressive manner and as I remember, it flew a competitive pattern.  ST 60 was its power - not a simple excursion with a long and skinny nose.  I have the plans.

Keith

Offline Scott Richlen

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De:

Quote
Photographer : Elwyn Aud?

Yes, he took the picture and added the titling.

Elwyn always took these amazing pictures at Brodaks!  He is really talented!

Offline Scott Richlen

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Status Report:

So most of you know or may have guessed (after seeing my other posts asking for Stunt News volunteers for ghost-writing articles and CADing plans) my motive in posting this topic.  I really do want to get these unpublished designs published in Stunt News.  And my apologies to Bob Hunt for not thinking up this idea years ago when he was looking for content.  Just like seagulls, we have no control over when the Muse will fly over our head and drop something on us.... ;D

I have kept a list of all of your nominations.  However, we should exclude those that have been published or where the plans are available commercially (even if in Australia) as I would not want to create an international incident in the stunt community.  But after excluding those, I still have a nice long list of your unpublished nominees (and the nominator).  So, I will be sending you (the nominator) a follow-up PM as to next steps.

For some of the nominated designs, publication may be an easy process since you have the plans or some version of them.  In other cases, such as the Yank, it all depends on how Mike Ferguson's Autodesk effort turns out.  If successful, this would be historic!  Essentially, Mike is attempting the stunt version of Jurassic Park!

With respect to "what gets published first" it will all depend on what's out there.  For instance, I have a "not ready for prime time" version of the Silver Lancer that I can send off to one of the CADers to get done, but it sounds like some of you have a plan (maybe suitable for publication) for which we just need an associated article written.

One thing that maybe Bob can help with: how do we deal with the "rights" issue.  I have no background here and I'm wondering what kind of "release" we will need from the designer.  And what if the designer is no longer with us?

I'm hoping that there are some other unpublished designs out there still to be listed here.

Scott

Offline Air Ministry .

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Quote
I may have access to such a program (and more importantly, someone who knows what he's doing with it).

Let me see what I can do with a few of these pictures. As long as the airfoil templates are known, the rest may not be super difficult to recreate.


Mike Ferguson .

=========================================================================================

Need to make allowance for Vanishing Point & Lense - depth effect .

Four Differant Photos & youll get Four differant Moments ( Hinge to Hinge ) scaleing enlargements manually ,
working from known dimensions .
Theres a lot of 3 in root chord , two in. tip chord tailplanes & elevators & 3 in - 1 in Flaps ,

But the depth perception gives varying results . Wonder if theres a programe foe Lense Type Effect ,
A lot of older magazine covers stated the Camera/ Lense in the write up .
And Known photographers had known lenses .  :P Getting a bit tecnical ?

Establish vanishing point and establish miscilaeneous parrallel lines , doing it long hand , gets you started .
With hopefully a ceterline started at the spinner center / prop shaft .

Withing 14 microns should do it .  LL~ S?P No No . measure twice - cut once . Within a quater inch will do . ( Builder Baloney -
If you want to start a builder , state Dimn. to three decimal places , or when asked if its all right ;
say ' Ive cut it twice and its still to short . This gets their attention smartly .  ;D VD~ )

Just model aerplanes ,
so total exactitude isnt necceassarilly vital to the survival of the species here,
 but known engines etc have known dimensions , so its good enough to do a fair & reasonable approximation .
Tho a True Replica ' is just that , so Stateing on the Drawing the source/ method , is fairer .

A Bank of old transfers / Numbers etc And Their Dimensions would be usefull fore ' decoding ' photographs !
WHAT is the Size of the 76 W. C. scrutineering sticker ?? to within 1/2 mm would be fine, thanks .  :) ;)

 H^^

Online Dave_Trible

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Most of those airplanes used a 2" spinner....there is your reference to start.

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Offline Randy Cuberly

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I vote for Bob G's 03 Bear.  I still fly it today, it kicks ass!

Yes, I would second this nomination.  The O3 Bear would be a great choice.  It seems very right in almost every way!

Randy Cuberly
Randy Cuberly
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Offline Scott Richlen

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If you guys have pictures of your nominees and haven't posted them yet, please do!  This is really great fun and we particularly want to help Mike Ferguson on his Jurassic Park project.

I have 2 more nominees:
The Venom - a classic era stunt ship.  Somewhere around here I have a photo of one flown at the 1961 (or 62) Frederich Maryland AAA meet.  When you see it, you'll be looking at High Art.

The Songbird - the ship with which Dick Houser won the first Advanced category competition at the Nats.  This first time was considered unofficial with the next year's being the first official competition.  But the competition that Dick won was against a large, very competitive field and in the "lovely" Nebraska wind.  Need I say more?

Scott

Offline big ron

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I hope it will be an Infinity without a few tweaks!
« Last Edit: May 01, 2018, 07:06:32 PM by big ron »
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Offline Randy Cuberly

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I hope it will be an Infinity without a few teaks!

Mine will be a different color than Bretts and use a PA65 instead of his ROJett 61.  Is that OK?   LL~

Randy Cuberly
Randy Cuberly
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Offline big ron

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Not sure if that's ok or not. I will be using a RO JETT 67 I hope it will be ok. I have accumulated several pictures of the Infinity for reference if anyone has some that aren't posted here could you send them my way please.
John Blanchard
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Online Brett Buck

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Perhaps Ty will fill us in on the actual duties of the Air Boss (either way it was a dumb name for a stunt model...) - Bob

  As you well know, coming up with a name is the hardest part of designing the airplane!

    Brett

Online Rick Campbell

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Here's another cool one. I might've found it on this forum sometime. Gerry Phelps, I was told. Might be as simple as an Ares with a bubble canopy. Any clue, gents?

Offline Serge_Krauss

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Speaking of Jerry Phelps, how about his "Patriot?" He flew it very well, and I see that a "Patriot" has flown impressively at the Nats within the last 2-3 years.

Online Brett Buck

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De:

Yes, he took the picture and added the titling.

Elwyn always took these amazing pictures at Brodaks!  He is really talented!

   I think Elwyn is the current master of the genre of airplane pictures.

    Brett


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