The Future of IC ?

[Kim Mortimore]

A flying buddy of mine who isn't on the message boards asked me what I think will happen to the internal combustion engine in C/L (for both competition and non-competition flying) in the near future, with the increasing popularity of electric.  I said I don't have enough information to make a prediction, and told him I would post the question here and get back to him.  Any thoughts about the most likely future?

Thanks,

(Edit to change the joking "infernal" to "internal" and "electrons" to "electric".  My friend and I are both ICers.  The purpose here is to get thoughts about what probably will happen, rather than what should happen.)

[Curtis Shipp]

Some will fly electric and some will fly noise making, smelly, cranky, plug burning, smoke and oil belching infernal combustion engines. I will fly IC but will try EP. I love IC.

Signed Curtis J. Shipp Jr.   

[Rudy Taube]

Kim,

If you go over to the electric section here on SH you will find a good thread addressing this very subject.

[bfrog]

I have been flying electrics for sport and some competition for the past few years and think it is a really neat way to fly CL. However, there is just too much inertia with IC flyers for the landscape to change very quickly. I think there are certain applications (such as stunt) that really benefit from electric power but most established flyers will continue to use what they have. The jump into ECL takes a mind change, a learning curve to get over and some additional start up costs that will keep a lot of old timers from changing over.

Over time electrics will grow considerably but for the near future I don't see a mass movement to battery power.

[RandySmith]

Don't hold your breath,
IC engines will be around models for a long long time to come,
 What I don't see is why a very few people want to see them all go away, and spend much time making up derogatory names for them and constantly trying to convince people to switch over, and telling things that are simply not true.
Fly whatever you want, let other fly whatever they like without  the attacks on their chosen power trains, whatever it is Electric , IC, Co2, rubber or ??
I speak with many many people every day and most feel this way, a few just want to have all slimers,) infernal combustion, oilers, noise makers)..whatever your derogatory name of the day is to dump them an go to EL, still a very few other want the El.  to go away and have their own playground.
We don't need a war over ways to power stuntships



Randy

[kenneth cook]

       As much as I find the electrics fascinating, I just couldn't part with the engines. When an engine starts its an uplifting experience. The noise, the smell it goes together like a pocket on a t-shirt. I'm sure we can equate noise with power and it becomes exciting. The downside is when tanks aren't working correctly or the engine doesn't exhibit behavior in a fashionable way we would like it run. When I was younger and you started an engine kids came running to see. I could say it was the noise that inspired the curiousity. Honestly, today it wouldn't make a bit of a difference as kids aren't likely to come running and others would be more angry at the noise. This is where the electrics dominate and at the same time after witnessing it first hand they seemingly make even more power. I would say for us dyed in the wool nitro burners were here to stay. I haven't ventured into electrics but it seems to me at least more complicated than the simple things we've already come to know. Ken

[Wynn Robins]

i've switched to ECL  - it makes flying a lot more enjoyable (for me) - no mess, no poor engine runs - no issues with overuns in competitions and no fiddling with the needle when we change altitude in flying sites....plus I can concentrate on flying - which I NEED

  I still love the smell of glow fuel being burnt up tho and appreciate it more at comps than I used to.

[Will Hinton]

! made my living for 40 years in electronics/electric and when I retired from that I said "no more."  I don't need to be messin' with something that reminds me of the career - I love the sound of my "John Deere PA'S" way too much.  I agree totally with Randy Smith - fly what you want and leave everybody else alone.  What's the big hairy deal anyway?!  Ain't we still in America?

[Kim Mortimore]

......I speak with many many people every day and most feel this way, a few just want to have all slimers,) infernal combustion, oilers, noise makers)..whatever your derogatory name of the day is to dump them an go to EL,......
We don't need a war over ways to power stuntships.

Randy

Randy,
Oops! My bad.  The "infernal" in my first post was intended as a joke (my friend and I are both ICers).  I tried to word the message neutrally so as to get predictions as to what will actually happen, rather than reignite a flame war.  Thanks for your prediction that both will be around for some time.  That is reassuring.  The fact that it is based on your conversations with very large numbers of fliers certainly gives it credence.  

Kim,

If you go over to the electric section here on SH you will find a good thread addressing this very subject.

Rudy,
Thanks for the tip.  I read the Electric section and wanted to post the question in the Open Forum to include people who may not be regular Electric readers.  

[Larry Wong]

Kim: Like the add on cereal Mikie like's it, try it you might like it. ECL has a different feel that is hard as a 4-2-4 has to explain ,what it is like. Next time you are at Alameda I will let you fly mine....

[wwwarbird]

 I'm not against electric models but it's like they say, "Whatever blows up your skirt". You won't ever catch this guy building or flying an electric model though. I acknowledge and understand their place, but they don't interest me in the slightest. When it comes to competition, EP is a definite advantage in a lot of ways, but please let's not restart that debate for the umpteenth time. To me, the noise and the smell is the way it's supposed to be done...Amen.

[Tim Wescott]

I'll be flying electric, and keeping my slimeballs, too.

Engines are fun, electrics are convenient.  If I were made of money I think I wouldn't even consider slime power for competition, 'cause the electrics just seem to offer oodles more consistency.

Every day that I finish flying a glow powered plane I revel in the sound and the smell and the joy of a well tuned engine.

Every day that I finish flying an electric I put it in my trunk, wave good by to the folks trying to get the oil off of their glow-powered planes, and go home happy.

[proparc]

While I certainly wouldn't mind an electric RC or CL foamy for fun, you would have to pry my Saito's from my cold-you know the rest.

4 stroke IC's are for me, the absolute most satisfying method for driving my ships throught the pattern, that I have ever personally experienced. I somehow don't feel we should be allowed to have this much fun.

[RC Storick]

Do you know why there is not more EL cars? IC is the most efficient means of power we have now. In 20 years maybe we will use Hydrogen fuels for or planes but be assured Infernal corrosion piston slappers will be around for decades to come.

[GGeezer]

Power for models certainly evolves over time, trends and fads come and go. Although electric flight has been with us for some time now, it is only recently, with the introduction of lighter more efficient batteries, that its popularity has bloomed.
However in the past, electric power has  been popular with on and off road vehicles and boats. I can remember in the late 60s and early 70s, IC powered R/C cars came on the scene. In fact, I had a cox-powered Jerobee and there were other brands. For a while, these were popular but gave way to electric power which dominated for many years.

Lately a reverse trend has happened, IC or what is now known as "nitro power" again burst on the scene.
All I see now in our local hobby shop is nitro power and a look at Tower Hobbies sees as many nitro vehicles advertised as electrics and you should see the number of manufacturers who are making pages of nitro car engines.
Why are the vehicle folks going back to IC... I don't know for sure, maybe its the roar and smell that makes these models seem more real.
This could also happen in the future with model planes, we shall have to wait and see.

Orv. (he who believes real men fly old time stunt models powered by ignition or diesel engines  )

[Howard Rush]

We don't all fly CL airplanes for the same reason.  Many of us are geezers who are recreating the sounds and smells of our youth.  Some of us want to fly the most competitive stunt planes available.  It is a dilemma for me.  It wouldn't bother me to see electrics outlawed for competition. You asked for predictions.  Here are some:

1. Electric airplanes will take over competitive stunt, at least until number 3 happens.  Fittingly, Bill Werwage may be the last IC Walker Cup winner.

2. People will fly electric CL airplanes in populated places because the motors are quiet, and they will kill people who wander into the circle because the motors are quiet, thus making us more outcast than we are now.

3. Electronic augmentation systems now being schemed for electric stunt planes will be applied to internal combustion engines, making them competitive again if rulemakers don't outlaw them. 

4. CL participation will dwindle because newcomers won't be attracted to quiet, unimpressive airplanes, particularly if they are wrinkly plastic ARFs.

5. Bikers won't give up Harleys for plug-ins.

[Dennis Moritz]

Electric works better than IC in many ways. Reliability, repeatability, power adjustment, plus much else, if the system components are of the best quality and the system itself is designed right and maintained. For now tho, electric motor speed does not seem effectively regulated to go off and on during a maneuver, in other words no break. The arcane art of tuning break point for an IC 2-stroke is no easy skill, but presently folks who compete in stunt on the highest level, have mastered it and use it. Those of us considerably less skilled, also manage to do a break that helps. That seems to me, is still advantageous for IC over electric. IC also, I believe, produces more power for weight.  In our club we are lucky enough to see both electric and IC systems of high quality and effectiveness working back to back. Our two top fliers, one flying IC, one flying electric, swap the top spot, meet to meet. One element that holds electric back, it seems to me, is the bewildering choice of motors, controllers, battery packs, and so forth. A guru with real knowledge and ability helps. Mike Palko. (of Palko Products   JOKING.) Also, the demands of stunt differ somewhat from RC Pattern and the like. New issues crop up in electric as using the motors becomes more common. In our club there's a re-tread who came out with an electric Banshee. Competitive in Intermediate, right away. On the other hand the IC hords of retreads in our club (5 or 6) are still learning to make the fussy 2-strokes behave after a season or two. Their progress in stunt is slower. The folks who are learning the noise makers, however, love them. There's a crazy passion. Their ragged, dirty clothing and bad hygiene indicative of their other worldly meditations. Clearly the unkempt IC flier is a profoundly spiritual person. The electric guy on the other hand lives life on the surface, clean and sweet smelling, never penetrating life's mysteries. Our fun fly improvised goings on, such as six up soft core combat with flea market Ringers, always means a Fox or an OS. PAs and the like are beautiful objects. Electric motors and batteries invoke no love.

[Chuck Feldman]

The Question posed here is; What is the future of IC? Lots of comments here but few direct answers.
Lets go back to 1952 when my father and I got into Gas Models. First item we got was a Firebaby with a spitzy engine. Next model was a Ringmaster and a Fox 35. What a wonderful difference that was. So much better. Easier to fly and performance was way passed the firebay. Note in that day there was no consideration to get an Ignition engine. Why? The glow plug which came out only four years earlier had revolutionized the engines. Moving to more recent times we have had some innovating changes in our event like 4 stroke power. But 4 stroke has not had the impact like the glow plug. There was the Pipe equipped engines. Again no real impact like the glow plug had. So where are we now? We are probably at the apex of the IC engine power plants. They are excellent. Now the new challenge comes along and that is Electric power. It has been with us now for what 5 years or so? Has it taken over the sport? answer NO it has not. OK lets look at some other factors. Back in 1952 we had Hobby shops. This is where we got our supplies. The operators for the most part got the latest and greatest items for us to purchase. Another factor is that the generation we where in was hungry for things that we could build and use. This is all gone today. Gas Models was a big deal in those days. What remains of that era is of course (I'm sorry to say) is RC. If you say you build or fly model airplanes to someone they will say "Oh RC."
So the future is? IC is here to stay probably until it is outlawed or we all pass on. As for the future of Electrics I say this. If CL survives our passing the electrics will be the dominate power for these models. Why? Because the possibilities that the computer controlled model has are only limited by your imagination. Scale will be the first event that will be hit hard by this technology. Imagine the electric powered scale bomber with all the operating features actuated by the computer within the model. The only limiting factor is the AMA. There archaic rules and clumsy rule change methods highly restrict the advancements that are possible in our sport.

[bob branch]

Chuck

I think you hit on a part of the animosity, namely the AMA rule process. Like in RC pattern, the rules have set up electric with a distinct disadvantage in the weight issue. As with RC pattern, however, electrics can overcome it. The two systems should compete at parity. I did a comparison of a PA .51 and comparable electric system layout by actually building and weighing two airplane front ends. The weights came out 2 ounces lighter for electric and cg one inch further back for electric vs a PA .51 with header and pipe and fuel tank layout with fuel. No game breaker either way. Airplane design could certainly allow for either system, just like plane design can be modified to allow for 4 stroke weight and cg differences. Please, lets not let this get into another rules discussion though. My point is that there is as with RC pattern, enough power available to overcome the handicaps of the rules. But unlike RC pattern, there are other things operating in CL aerobatics, the age of the competitors and tradition. Just look at the posts already in this thread. A lot of people just like glow motors. Call it tradition, the smell, the joy of just tuning a motor. Its all fun to many people. This is not a living for most of us, its fun! One person's fun may be a full scratch build with hand rubbed dope finish. Another's may be an ARF. Should be no distracting one from the other. Just what different people find as enjoyable.

Randy is right. Both are going to exist for the foreseeable future. People will win with both. Those who fly glow and do it really well can certainly compete against those who fly electric. Just like a ST .60 won the worlds this year against all the "modern" stuff. It was a guy who knew the motor really well, developed a really good plane around it, and practiced a ton and flew very well and got breaks of good conditions. Nothing new in any of that.

I for one enjoy going out to fly and seeing a bunch of different stuff. I don't want to see everyone with the same airplane and same paint scheme, or the same motors. I enjoy variety in the hobby. I never saw identical planes and stuff when I was a kid. Everyone's was different. Nice to see electric developing. It brings more originality back into the hobby which was one of the things that drew me to it. I've converted to electric because I enjoy it more than I enjoy glow. I've done the same in RC. I only have 3 glow rc planes remaining and when they are worn out I will be all electric. Doesn't mean I don't like to see others enjoying glow. I still love all the things associated with it. For me right now electric is more fun. Do what you enjoy. Its still about the flying. Let everyone participate without predjudice. That is what will make the hobby strongest.

bob branch

[Chuck Feldman]

Bob,

I understand all that you wrote. Of course my last comment in my post is about the rules process. I believe back in the day (50's) The AMA was behind the curve of progress and rules where something that where coming about to match what was happening in the field. Our CL activities where moving fast and new ideas where coming up all the time. It was a time of innovation and fun. The rules process may have been exactly as they are today. I do not know. Still things where happening. RC being one of them. I recall the radio equipment was advancing all the time galloping ghost comes to mind. A method of having a controllable elevator and rudder. Very clever. I don't recall any of this being a problem or any real argument's about its use. The BOM rule came to be because Dads where building models for there kids and the kids used them in contests and winning. The other kids not having this advantage being the victims. Now I want to list the advantages of using the electric systems.
1. finish you model with anything you want to.
2. no need to adjust this and that, tank position, needle valve etc.
3. No overruns.
4. No starting problems.
5. No need for a stooge or helper.
6. No noise.
7. No mess.
OK that's enough for now. So why isn't everyone switching? How about cost. How about loving what they are doing now. The electric thing is just new and isn't as simple a conversion as was the glow plug. Let the process continue. For me I am staying with IC even though it is Old School. Afterall I am Old School. Soon to be 72 not in the best of health and happy to be here. Back to the AMA thing. I am not the only one unhappy with them. I try not to be real vocal about it because the AMA no longer serves my activity as I think it should it being 99% for RC.

[Derek Barry]

You know me, I am IC all the way!!

[Dan McEntee]

   Spark ignition hasn't completely disappeared. People collect them and pay big bucks for them. Who collects electric motors!!!? Will you see an outrunner motor bring the price that a Dooling .29 or .60 brings on eBay!!??? Large R/C models fly on Spark ignition gas/oil fuel, ain't no electric motors available for them. Cost is a big factor, electric ain't cheaper, other than the fact that you don't have to buy paper towels and 409 any more. I would be curious to see how long the motors last, batteries last and such. There is a place for electric models, just like there is a place for diesels. But what I would really like to see is DYNOJET STUNT!!!. Think about it, no more 30 and 40 dollar props!!!!!
  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee
  Long Live Super Tigers!!!

[W.D. Roland]

Have avoided posting on this for several reasons, Delete if needed Robert.
I will try to be nice with this.

I have been working on, starting enjoying IC engines since before 10 years old.
In recent years after introduction of Lipo batteries have found EP to be great for micro and sub micro use.

With high discharge rate set ups the power can be simply mind blowing for short periods of time.
Then remove battery for charge or swapping with fresh and charging(after it cools) so it will be freshly charged
For its next round.A pain.
Bring 10 charged batteries to the field so an entire afternoon can be spent flying instead of charging, But most of us do live in the real world and probably would not do this.
All through the above attention to preventing battery fires must stay in your mind.
In fact it is best if Lipos are never left unattended while charging.
Lipo powered airplane do seem to often go up in smoke after crashes sometimes. Loss of motor, receiver, servos, wheels, well the whole airplane.
I have seen only lumps of burned metal left and just before that it was $1000+ worth of equipment.
Pollution from the mfg of the components for electric is fairly high and very toxic.

OR with IC , fuel it up, heat the plug, flip the prop,Fly. simple, quick.
The pollution problem is way less then the propaganda claims, and is probably not even pollution.

Possibly soon none of this will matter as we rapidly loose individual freedom and choice in this country.
The Fascist(closest description I have) in charge and their followers are rapidly dragging us in that direction against all common sense.
In reading some of the above post it was a surprise to find that Alinsky's tactics have made its way into the C/L side of the hobby. Hoped I could avoid it and have not visited the electric section.

November may be key in what the future direction of glow/gas/electric/hobbies and so much more in our lives go.

Although I have uses for Glow, Gas and electric power its probably best if I stay away from "Gettin All Amped up".

Dan
I do have a Dynajet that a friend used on a Stunt plane in early 60s.
I was a young one then but the old timers say it would do the entire pattern with rounded squares and just barely enough fuel to finish.
Darrel said if he wasn't super smooth in flying it  flame out resulted.
I have converted old 8s and super 8 film to VHS and trying to figure out how to upload to youtube.
The films are from 50s and 60s combat, speed, stunt contest all over the La and Texas area.
Some of you may be in them. The Jet, Don Stills first Stuka Stunt , young Me flying combat.
I think the Dallas internats is the first contest on the film, combat over pavement!.

David

[Dennis Moritz]

The folks who fly noise makers love them. Their ragged, dirty clothing and bad hygiene indicative of their other worldly preoccupations. Clearly the unkempt IC flier is a profoundly spiritual person. The electric guy on the other hand lives life on the surface, clean and sweet smelling, never penetrating into life's mysteries.

[W.D. Roland]

The folks who fly noise makers love them. Their ragged, dirty clothing and bad hygiene indicative of their other worldly preoccupations. Clearly the unkempt IC flier is a profoundly spiritual person. The electric guy on the other hand lives life on the surface, clean and sweet smelling, never penetrating into life's mysteries.

Good Alinsky Dennis.

[proparc]

The folks who fly noise makers love them. Their ragged, dirty clothing and bad hygiene indicative of their other worldly preoccupations. Clearly the unkempt IC flier is a profoundly spiritual person. The electric guy on the other hand lives life on the surface, clean and sweet smelling, never penetrating into life's mysteries.

Profoundly Hilarious.

You know, now that I think about it, I didn't get into this game back when I was young child, (stop laughing-I was a child once) because it was easy. I kinda liked it because it was tough. Granted, that may be a strange thing for a 5 year old, but that's the way it was.

In terms of pecking order, I would rate electrics as the easiest, 2 stroke IC's next, and then 4 strokes. Maybe my love of 4 strokes is because it is a little bit tougher than all the rest. It requires a little bit more of you. Stunt in general requires quite a bit more of you than other hobbies. It’s what makes it so satisfying.

There is something deeply satisfying about an IC motor. Man, opening the box for the first time, of a brand new PA or a Saito-is like Christmas. This may sound weird but, they actually smell good!! I design and cut my own foam wings. It’s much tougher than just purchasing them from a good supplier but, you know, I like it that way.

[Howard Rush]

The folks who fly noise makers love them. Their ragged, dirty clothing and bad hygiene indicative of their other worldly preoccupations. Clearly the unkempt IC flier is a profoundly spiritual person. The electric guy on the other hand lives life on the surface, clean and sweet smelling, never penetrating into life's mysteries.

Ah, yes, like the mystery, "How fast will it go this time?"  New mysteries await with electrickery.  Who are Eli the Ice Man and the promiscuous Violet?  And what gain leads those Polish people to that imaginary axis?   I predict no better hygiene and the even fouler smell of burnt phenolic.

[George]

...Who are Eli the Ice Man and the promiscuous Violet?  And what gain leads those Polish people to that imaginary axis?   I predict no better hygiene and the even fouler smell of burnt phenolic.

GREAT!! 

George

[Doug Moon]

Everyone keeps saying there is simply none of this and none of that and on and on.....  

I have flown a full tilt El setup in some junky air and I was impressed with the power, the delivery of the power across the entire flight was really the most impressive part of it.

I am also witness to a new El setup on a profile right now.  So far each flight has needed a new prop that required a different amount of voltage through the motor.  This meant there volt meter was run on the motor for a sec so the proper rpm range/volts could be detected and set.  This is no different then bolting on props on an IC and setting the needle with a tach.

Hunting for the "correct" prop for a plane will never go away.  That part of the equation is a very real one and it takes many flights to get "the one" for a particular model that will work in most conditions.  I dont see how what is turning it will take that part of the equation away.  

I was also witness to what happens when one bolts on an entirely different type of prop and didnt remember to get [it] correct.  About half way through a 2 minute test flight the system was smoking.  At landing the ESC was melted.  The motor was fried and wouldnt turn and the battery was burnt beyond use.  This happened at about the one minute mark.  Entire system gone.  Start over.

I have had many accidental lean runs on my ICs, from FPs to PAs including some 4s, and not once did a one minute lean run toast the entire system front to back.  I have run bad fuel, wrong fuel, not enough oil, too much oil, and every time I have been able to detect the problem and move on without the whole system being torched.

I saw a crash that totaled everything in the plane, motor, ESC, battery, the whole shootin' match.  To come back from that would have required another plane (many people have back ups on hand no biggie there) and a WHOLE new EL setup front to back.  Meanwhile I blasted a PA 65 straight into the tarmac!  Switched planes, borrowed a header and pipe (you will find many of these in your competitors tool boxes ) bolted it to the just crashed PA65 added a new 3 dollar plastic tank and I was back in the air.

When I store my fuel in the garage it doesnt blow up.  I have read story after story about so and so charging their battery and they had a fire or the battery heating up and was on the verge of catching fire.  When I go to the field and refuel my plane I dont have to store the fuel in a fire proof case of some sort while it preps for use.  This is a real concern and should not be overlooked by any means.  I am not trying to make light of it because if you had a house fire due a model airplane battery you would be pissed off not to mention many other things.  yes you have to safely store your fuel but that usually means out the reach of children and not exposed to open flames.  That is all well within your own control and very easy to do.  Battery fires can happen and do happen even when all the proper precautions were followed to the "T"  

For 8 years in a row I had a flip and fly rig that was so repeatable I could go 6 months without changing the needle setting once.  Then when it required changing it was usually about 1/4 turn out.  Then continue until the flying season was over.  Same motor, same prop, same PIPE!  The only required maintenance was I had to change the tank twice due to the wear on the stopper from the oil.  That is a $3 part and any hobby shop in the country.  It was a top of the game rig too.  Took me to the Top 5 twice, 1st time as the rookie, and had many many wins locally.  All in all it is estimated it had around 2000 flights at is time of destruction.  

There was mention of the return of the gas powered car over the past few years.  I think that is mainly because the ease of running the engines at this point in time.  They are very well constructed with very close tolerances that make for exceptional repeatable usable performance.  The newer car motors can take a serious beating and never even think twice.  They rev like it is nothing on 8%oil.  I have an OS 26 4 stroke car motor that will rev 24000 rpms all day.  I rebuilt it with an airplane crack shaft and put it on a profile.  I used the correct small aluminum tuned pipe that is supplied with that motor.  It would spin up 12500-15000 depending diameter on a small APC prop.  It was really cool and VERY quiet.  Loads of fun.  They even have some IC car motors with electric starters right on the back of the motor.  Hook up the battery and the glo driver and press the start engine button.  It is pretty slick for sure.  

I guess what I really trying to say is they (all systems) have their advantages and their disadvantages.  What some will perceive as a disadvantage others will not.  That is pretty much how it goes.  

But one is not the be all end all better than the other when it comes to stunt.  Stunt is odd in that there are so many ways to get to the winners circle and most if not all the time it is the person on the handle rather that what is bolted into the nose of the plane.  

I look at all of this stuff from competitive pair of glasses.  I follow the "If I think it can help me win I will do it" type of thinking.  If it doesnt help the plane garner points of some sort it doesnt get added.

I am close to an El system that is being tested out, rung out, and worked out.  If I can see how it would help me win I will steal the ideas and use them to my advantage.

All in all I think it will have its place and I think it will be a large place but the IC wont be replaced until it simply no longer available/legal.  

[Derek Barry]

Amen Doug!!!!!!!!!!!

You and I seem to have the same problem. Those PA's just run perfect every time. I never have to move my needle more than a 1/4 turn to get it right, no matter where I am. Appling GA, Muncie IN, or Gyula Hungary its always the same. 

[Will Hinton]

What Derek said.

[W.D. Roland]

The end of IC is going to be from the new powers given to the EPA by the OBAMA camp.
When they look in our direction that all its going to take.

Fines for use of methanol or $500 a gallon fuel?

[Brett Buck]

Don't hold your breath,
IC engines will be around models for a long long time to come,
 What I don't see is why a very few people want to see them all go away, and spend much time making up derogatory names for them and constantly trying to convince people to switch over, and telling things that are simply not true.
Fly whatever you want, let other fly whatever they like without  the attacks on their chosen power trains, whatever it is Electric , IC, Co2, rubber or ??
I speak with many many people every day and most feel this way, a few just want to have all slimers,) infernal combustion, oilers, noise makers)..whatever your derogatory name of the day is to dump them an go to EL, still a very few other want the El.  to go away and have their own playground.

  Precisely.

   We have this sort of thing every time something new comes along - ST46 vs "Schneurle of the Week", ST60 VS Tuned Pipe, 2-stroke vs 4-stroke, and now IC vs Electric. People seem to want to jump on the bandwagon of various perceived "revolutuons" and once they do, there's an unfortunate tendency to become fanboys, and unable to objectively respond to commentary that contradicts their favored approach. ST60 VS Tuned pipe went from the early 90's till about 2006 and darn near led to the destruction of the event entirely. We are still living with the aftereffects. But something very similar in nature happened with 2-stroke/4-stroke (still going on at a low level of hostility) and now with electric vs. IC. In the latter case it has already been blown into a conspiracy by some.

  At it's essence stunt is and should be the simplest event of all. There are negligible technical rules - you can run anything you want in terms of engine or airplane (as long as you build it yourself). The only real restrictions is that it has to fit into 70 feet. The rules are, and should be, completely agnostic over what is going on with the airplane or engine. You show up with your best effort, with little limitations, and no one really cares what it is as long as the tricks look like the rule book. I think that's one big reason that stunt has been so successful over the long haul - you can make most anything work if you know what you are doing.

  So it's completely unnecessary to divide ourselves into camps based on any affiliation. The only camp I am in is the "how does Brett Buck win more stunt contests" camp. If I thought a Dyna-Jet was the hot setup I would be flying that.

    Brett

[proparc]

 Precisely.

So it's completely unnecessary to divide ourselves into camps based on any affiliation. The only camp I am in is the "how does Brett Buck win more stunt contests" camp. If I thought a Dyna-Jet was the hot setup I would be flying that.

Brett

We are basically having trouble coming to terms with the "era of inclusion". That is, we never really did get over the Fox 35 or die era. The issue as I see it, is not so much the proliferation of powerplants but, the SPEED at which these new powerplants are taking hold. Stunt flyers, who tend to be a conservative lot, seem to be having a tough time coming to grips with this “pace of inclusion”.  

RC flyers have always seemed to more readily willing adopt new technology because, IMHO their sport is inherently more technologically oriented. But, they are not as tightly knit as we are. Stunt flyers have an unusually strong sense of our history. There is this deep seated feeling that who we are, and what we do, is special. Consequently, and by extension, that makes what we use, special.

Brett touched on something essential in my opinion. And that is, we operate under a very high degree of freedom. Interestingly enough, it is that very high degree of freedom, which I believe, tends to impart a certain “stress” on the stunt community, when a significantly new technology appears. Because of this freedom, and it’s fostering of independent technological thinking, there is this latent fear of being “forced” to adopt this new technology by default. That is, even though you can still use whatever you want, you will not be able to because of technological obsolescence.    

As an "old timer", I am not concerned one bit about the different powerplants because; I know it all comes down to who flicks their wrist in the right way-at the right time. I am still waiting for someone to out-do Gene Schaeffers, Flushing Meadows, Fox 15 powered Magician flight!!!

[Randy Powell]

Amazing as it may sound, I have nothing to say.

[Dave Adamisin]

   The only camp I am in is the "how does Brett Buck win more stunt contests" camp. If I thought a Dyna-Jet was the hot setup I would be flying that.

    Brett

And I'd be driving long distances to watch and hopefully launch your plane........

[steven yampolsky]

I blame the top 5 crowd! They keep finding winning power plant combo's and win with them! How dare they!? Lower rung schmucks like I are going nuts trying to keep up with the last year's NATS winner power plant combo!

 

[RandySmith]

Quote from: Brett Buck on September 09, 2010, 03:48:45 PM
   The only camp I am in is the "how does Brett Buck win more stunt contests" camp. If I thought a Dyna-Jet was the hot setup I would be flying that.

    Brett


And I'd be driving long distances to watch and hopefully launch your plane........


    I would be holding fingers in my ears and staying several yards back........


R

[Randy Ryan]

Amazing as it may sound, I have nothing to say.

Well put Randy!

I have something to say, but I'll keep it to myself.

[Howard Rush]

I blame the top 5 crowd! They keep finding winning power plant combo's and win with them! How dare they!? Lower rung schmucks like I are going nuts trying to keep up with the last year's NATS winner power plant combo!

 

I know how you feel.  I build so slowly that I have engines that go obsolete before they get installed. 

[proparc]

I know how you feel.  I build so slowly that I have engines that go obsolete before they get installed. 

And as we discussed earlier, you need to improve your contest rigging methods.

[W.D. Roland]

I know how you feel.  I build so slowly that I have engines that go obsolete before they get installed. 

Howard
I think that's a left over effect of the combat or rat engine of the month syndrome we suffered that started in the 70s.

Don't feel left out,I suffer also. My newest engine is a ST60V  R/C bought around 1981!
It gets to be my next stunt engine, With a fine new ring from Frank.
Should I port it?

Recently mounted an O&R .33RH and flew it on a new build. chug chug chug.

David

[Randy Powell]

I think it's tragic that Howard can spend 8 years building a plane, finish it with a power plant that was popular when he started the project and still be very competitive. The rat.

[Tom Niebuhr]

Hey Brett!

The Dyna Jet was done. It was flown one evening at the '61 Wollow Grove Nats. As I recall it flew very well, but I don't remember how much of the pattern was done. It was not whispering like an electric, and certainly was not a lawn dart. I have no idea who the people in the picture are. Maybe someone can help.

[Peter Ferguson]

Given the latest results it takes a long time for engines to go obsolete ...like over 40 years.

[Eric Viglione]

"The Future of IC?" ... is bright, at least for me!

Run what you want, but run it for the right reasons. The lemming effect of the latest greatest is alive and well in stunt. I'm as guilty as anyone. I ran ST60's for years, I had really just mastered the nuances of that setup when I decided I would just "skip" that whole pipe era thing and just had to have a 4-Stroke...whoops... not that there's anything really wrong with 4-strokes, but the learning curve set my stunt program back to square one. Not a great thing when you are also trying to climb the stunt ladder. ...and finally went with Randy's PA's. I can honestly say, I've never taken a new PA apart, not even a head shim... I barely turn the needle except during extreme atmospheric changes (which effects all power trains, even my buddies electrics have to dial out the pot's). I run one prop and just shift the nitro between 5-10%. My first PA in my original Starfire has well over 750 flights on it. The pipe is like new, and I flew it a couple weeks ago for fun and to play with some trim idea's, and the engine was flip and fly...didn't even touch the needle.

No power setup is idiot proof, (but my PA's come close, if you run them exactly as told by the maker) and I've yet to see any of my friends who have gone to electric have instant success either. The panacia of instant success is over stated if you ask me. I've seen several flying sessions wasted with 2 minute test flights that didn't give the wanted result, go back home, order more parts, try again in a week or two. I've even seen "flame outs" and a crash result from it. (evidently the timer/esc can shut the whole thing down if it's drawing too much power). I've seen buddy's go through several brand ESC's, batteries, etc trying to find the magic bullet that will give them the run they want. Replicating someone else's run is JUST AS DIFFICULT AS IC because it is still very much air-frame influenced. What ran perfect for so-and-so in his sleek thin wing light stunter doesn't work in your big draggy thick wing slightly porky world beater. What, you thought just because it was electric that the laws of physic's didn't apply? Heh... sorry, you're still on your own for the most part and will have to dial it in through trial and error like everyone else.

The typical day at the field for the electric guys I observe seems to go something like this:

Arrive at the field with your partially charged batteries (can't store them fully charged)
Cozy up to the charger and top off your first battery before you can fly. ( you do have electrical outlets at your field, right? No? Oh, I've seen a few cars getting jump started after re-charging their LiPo's a few time, fun fun fun)
Put up your first flight.
Land, run to the plane and pull the arming saftey (you do use a saftey arming plug, don't you?)
Pull the battery immediately and examine it for "puff". Oh no, my $$$ battery is puffy, do I toss it? Time to gamble. Will the cost influence your decision?
Run to the charger, pull off the battery that was charging for the next flight, put on the battery you just flew and hook it up so you can see how much charge is left.
Pull out your log book, and make a notation for that battery of what flight number that last one was, and the reading you just got from the charger.
Rinse, lather & repeat as many times as you want to fly that day...
THEN...  don't forget to discharge partially any of those batteries you charged that you didn't get to use that day (can't store them charged)
Go home, put your batteries in the battery bunker and make sure the bunker isn't too close to anything flamable. (yes, flames have been known to escape the bunkers)

Sigh... I'm way too lazy for all that work. I roll out my lines, fuel up, flip and fly.

One guy in our club crashed his little super clown electric... the LiPo pack was accordian'd and we were all in a quandry as to what to do with it. We ended up setting off to the side of the field and waited to see if it would spontaneously combust. Never did, but he didn't want to ride home with it in his car just the same... and I didn't blame him. I think he told me later he got a bucket of salt water and "killed" the battery on the way home.

I belong to a very large club, mostly R/C'ers. 200 members or so. As electrics have gained popularity we had what seemed like one tragic fire reported per monthly club meeting. Either someone's shop, garage, trailer, plane or vehical burns up with their LiPo's. Many have gone back to IC because of the cost of keeping electric systems up to date with fresh batteries, close calls with fires, etc. The biggest hold outs for electric in our club are the little EP foamy crowd, most that tried them in Helicopters and IMAC, or 3D have gone back to IC.

Most of what I said here is purely just my personal observation. I don't claim to have all the answers, or to even be right, but I just have to object to the hype that it's all over except for the fat lady singing for IC. Like it's not "maybe", to some people's thinking, it's just a matter of "when"... that's pretty outrageous to me.

I don't care who wins the Nat's with what this year or in the next five years. Some of those guys could win with a brick on a string with enough practice. I'm not saying there aren't some advantages to EC over IC, but there are also some, if not more advantages of IC over EC, at least for now and for my way of thinking and use.

So... I'll stick to my lead-in statement, The future if IC is bright, at least for me.

EricV

[john e. holliday]

Well after reading Eric's post,  I have to agree with him.  I remember the early days when there were K&B, Fox, McCoy and Johnson engines used in competition.  OK Cub was for sport or scale flying.  I got into regular competiton and Fox was the engine of choice with Johnson the second choice for Combat and Rat Race.  I was the first to have a new K&B.  It was good for rat race, but in combat I kept losing too many props because of crankshaft breakage.  But, like it was stated, almost every month/year it was a new engine to stay competitive.  Once I got my first Supre Tigre, that is the one I stayed with.  Had to cover my comat planes every time Duke Fox would come walking up.  But, it got to where I couldn't stay with the program even with Navy Carrier as far as engines.   I started flying stunt after an individual watched me flying just for grins one day.  He said, "Why not do the pattern"?  With a little coaching and him flying my plane to show me it would do the pattern I was off.   

I too have thought of electric power, but, then the initial cost put me off fast.  A PA or RO-Jett could be had for that kind of money.  I also did not fly that much.  It is nice to pull a plane off the hook that has not been flown for several months.  Just check the filter, fuel line and mounting bolts as well as the prop nut.  Fuel it up after burping on the ground, hook the battery up, flip and go fly.   

[proparc]

"The Future of IC?" ... is bright, at least for me!

So... I'll stick to my lead-in statement, The future if IC is bright, at least for me.

EricV

Eric great great post.

[Wynn Robins]

"The typical day at the field for the electric guys I observe seems to go something like this:

Arrive at the field with your partially charged batteries (can't store them fully charged)
Cozy up to the charger and top off your first battery before you can fly. ( you do have electrical outlets at your field, right? No? Oh, I've seen a few cars getting jump started after re-charging their LiPo's a few time, fun fun fun)
Put up your first flight.
Land, run to the plane and pull the arming saftey (you do use a saftey arming plug, don't you?)
Pull the battery immediately and examine it for "puff". Oh no, my $$$ battery is puffy, do I toss it? Time to gamble. Will the cost influence your decision?
Run to the charger, pull off the battery that was charging for the next flight, put on the battery you just flew and hook it up so you can see how much charge is left.
Pull out your log book, and make a notation for that battery of what flight number that last one was, and the reading you just got from the charger.
Rinse, lather & repeat as many times as you want to fly that day...
THEN...  don't forget to discharge partially any of those batteries you charged that you didn't get to use that day (can't store them charged)
Go home, put your batteries in the battery bunker and make sure the bunker isn't too close to anything flamable. (yes, flames have been known to escape the bunkers)

Oh Dear !!! - Oh Dear Oh Dear Oh Dear - So misinformed

[Joe Yau]

Well, I guess I returned to CL just in time..    for the 30+ yrs that I left off , thinking there would be probably no more glow engine around and everything will be Electric powered & all r/c. As I still have some CL planes with ST.35, TD.15 etc engines on them from the 70s.   So I didn't bother to look further.  Till one evening when I was a bit bored and did a search for CL, then found some CL youtube videos with people still using glow engines, and the rest was history!  3 yrs later.. now the electric stuff are really kicking in.  It seem nice, cause its consistent in a few ways.   I most likely run both..   as I like my 2-strokes & 4-strokes.