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General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: Kim Mortimore on September 07, 2010, 06:13:24 PM
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A flying buddy of mine who isn't on the message boards asked me what I think will happen to the internal combustion engine in C/L (for both competition and non-competition flying) in the near future, with the increasing popularity of electric. I said I don't have enough information to make a prediction, and told him I would post the question here and get back to him. Any thoughts about the most likely future?
Thanks,
(Edit to change the joking "infernal" to "internal" and "electrons" to "electric". My friend and I are both ICers. The purpose here is to get thoughts about what probably will happen, rather than what should happen.)
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Some will fly electric and some will fly noise making, smelly, cranky, plug burning, smoke and oil belching infernal combustion engines. I will fly IC but will try EP. I love IC. H^^
Signed Curtis J. Shipp Jr.
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Kim,
If you go over to the electric section here on SH you will find a good thread addressing this very subject.
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I have been flying electrics for sport and some competition for the past few years and think it is a really neat way to fly CL. However, there is just too much inertia with IC flyers for the landscape to change very quickly. I think there are certain applications (such as stunt) that really benefit from electric power but most established flyers will continue to use what they have. The jump into ECL takes a mind change, a learning curve to get over and some additional start up costs that will keep a lot of old timers from changing over.
Over time electrics will grow considerably but for the near future I don't see a mass movement to battery power.
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Don't hold your breath,
IC engines will be around models for a long long time to come,
What I don't see is why a very few people want to see them all go away, and spend much time making up derogatory names for them and constantly trying to convince people to switch over, and telling things that are simply not true.
Fly whatever you want, let other fly whatever they like without the attacks on their chosen power trains, whatever it is Electric , IC, Co2, rubber or ??
I speak with many many people every day and most feel this way, a few just want to have all slimers,) infernal combustion, oilers, noise makers)..whatever your derogatory name of the day is to dump them an go to EL, still a very few other want the El. to go away and have their own playground.
We don't need a war over ways to power stuntships
Randy
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As much as I find the electrics fascinating, I just couldn't part with the engines. When an engine starts its an uplifting experience. The noise, the smell it goes together like a pocket on a t-shirt. I'm sure we can equate noise with power and it becomes exciting. The downside is when tanks aren't working correctly or the engine doesn't exhibit behavior in a fashionable way we would like it run. When I was younger and you started an engine kids came running to see. I could say it was the noise that inspired the curiousity. Honestly, today it wouldn't make a bit of a difference as kids aren't likely to come running and others would be more angry at the noise. This is where the electrics dominate and at the same time after witnessing it first hand they seemingly make even more power. I would say for us dyed in the wool nitro burners were here to stay. I haven't ventured into electrics but it seems to me at least more complicated than the simple things we've already come to know. Ken
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i've switched to ECL - it makes flying a lot more enjoyable (for me) - no mess, no poor engine runs - no issues with overuns in competitions and no fiddling with the needle when we change altitude in flying sites....plus I can concentrate on flying - which I NEED
I still love the smell of glow fuel being burnt up tho and appreciate it more at comps than I used to.
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! made my living for 40 years in electronics/electric and when I retired from that I said "no more." I don't need to be messin' with something that reminds me of the career - I love the sound of my "John Deere PA'S" way too much. I agree totally with Randy Smith - fly what you want and leave everybody else alone. What's the big hairy deal anyway?! Ain't we still in America?
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......I speak with many many people every day and most feel this way, a few just want to have all slimers,) infernal combustion, oilers, noise makers)..whatever your derogatory name of the day is to dump them an go to EL,......
We don't need a war over ways to power stuntships.
Randy
Randy,
Oops! My bad. The "infernal" in my first post was intended as a joke (my friend and I are both ICers). I tried to word the message neutrally so as to get predictions as to what will actually happen, rather than reignite a flame war. Thanks for your prediction that both will be around for some time. That is reassuring. The fact that it is based on your conversations with very large numbers of fliers certainly gives it credence.
Kim,
If you go over to the electric section here on SH you will find a good thread addressing this very subject.
Rudy,
Thanks for the tip. I read the Electric section and wanted to post the question in the Open Forum to include people who may not be regular Electric readers.
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Kim: Like the add on cereal Mikie like's it, try it you might like it. ECL has a different feel that is hard as a 4-2-4 has to explain ,what it is like. Next time you are at Alameda I will let you fly mine.... y1
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I'm not against electric models but it's like they say, "Whatever blows up your skirt". You won't ever catch this guy building or flying an electric model though. I acknowledge and understand their place, but they don't interest me in the slightest. When it comes to competition, EP is a definite advantage in a lot of ways, but please let's not restart that debate for the umpteenth time. To me, the noise and the smell is the way it's supposed to be done...Amen. ;D
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I'll be flying electric, and keeping my slimeballs, too.
Engines are fun, electrics are convenient. If I were made of money I think I wouldn't even consider slime power for competition, 'cause the electrics just seem to offer oodles more consistency.
Every day that I finish flying a glow powered plane I revel in the sound and the smell and the joy of a well tuned engine.
Every day that I finish flying an electric I put it in my trunk, wave good by to the folks trying to get the oil off of their glow-powered planes, and go home happy.
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While I certainly wouldn't mind an electric RC or CL foamy for fun, you would have to pry my Saito's from my cold-you know the rest.
4 stroke IC's are for me, the absolute most satisfying method for driving my ships throught the pattern, that I have ever personally experienced. I somehow don't feel we should be allowed to have this much fun. <=
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Do you know why there is not more EL cars? IC is the most efficient means of power we have now. In 20 years maybe we will use Hydrogen fuels for or planes but be assured Infernal corrosion piston slappers will be around for decades to come.
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Power for models certainly evolves over time, trends and fads come and go. Although electric flight has been with us for some time now, it is only recently, with the introduction of lighter more efficient batteries, that its popularity has bloomed.
However in the past, electric power has been popular with on and off road vehicles and boats. I can remember in the late 60s and early 70s, IC powered R/C cars came on the scene. In fact, I had a cox-powered Jerobee and there were other brands. For a while, these were popular but gave way to electric power which dominated for many years.
Lately a reverse trend has happened, IC or what is now known as "nitro power" again burst on the scene.
All I see now in our local hobby shop is nitro power and a look at Tower Hobbies sees as many nitro vehicles advertised as electrics and you should see the number of manufacturers who are making pages of nitro car engines.
Why are the vehicle folks going back to IC... I don't know for sure, maybe its the roar and smell that makes these models seem more real.
This could also happen in the future with model planes, we shall have to wait and see.
Orv. (he who believes real men fly old time stunt models powered by ignition or diesel engines y1 ;D)
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We don't all fly CL airplanes for the same reason. Many of us are geezers who are recreating the sounds and smells of our youth. Some of us want to fly the most competitive stunt planes available. It is a dilemma for me. It wouldn't bother me to see electrics outlawed for competition. You asked for predictions. Here are some:
1. Electric airplanes will take over competitive stunt, at least until number 3 happens. Fittingly, Bill Werwage may be the last IC Walker Cup winner.
2. People will fly electric CL airplanes in populated places because the motors are quiet, and they will kill people who wander into the circle because the motors are quiet, thus making us more outcast than we are now.
3. Electronic augmentation systems now being schemed for electric stunt planes will be applied to internal combustion engines, making them competitive again if rulemakers don't outlaw them.
4. CL participation will dwindle because newcomers won't be attracted to quiet, unimpressive airplanes, particularly if they are wrinkly plastic ARFs.
5. Bikers won't give up Harleys for plug-ins.
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Electric works better than IC in many ways. Reliability, repeatability, power adjustment, plus much else, if the system components are of the best quality and the system itself is designed right and maintained. For now tho, electric motor speed does not seem effectively regulated to go off and on during a maneuver, in other words no break. The arcane art of tuning break point for an IC 2-stroke is no easy skill, but presently folks who compete in stunt on the highest level, have mastered it and use it. Those of us considerably less skilled, also manage to do a break that helps. That seems to me, is still advantageous for IC over electric. IC also, I believe, produces more power for weight. In our club we are lucky enough to see both electric and IC systems of high quality and effectiveness working back to back. Our two top fliers, one flying IC, one flying electric, swap the top spot, meet to meet. One element that holds electric back, it seems to me, is the bewildering choice of motors, controllers, battery packs, and so forth. A guru with real knowledge and ability helps. Mike Palko. (of Palko Products :)! JOKING.) Also, the demands of stunt differ somewhat from RC Pattern and the like. New issues crop up in electric as using the motors becomes more common. In our club there's a re-tread who came out with an electric Banshee. Competitive in Intermediate, right away. On the other hand the IC hords of retreads in our club (5 or 6) are still learning to make the fussy 2-strokes behave after a season or two. Their progress in stunt is slower. The folks who are learning the noise makers, however, love them. There's a crazy passion. Their ragged, dirty clothing and bad hygiene indicative of their other worldly meditations. Clearly the unkempt IC flier is a profoundly spiritual person. The electric guy on the other hand lives life on the surface, clean and sweet smelling, never penetrating life's mysteries. Our fun fly improvised goings on, such as six up soft core combat with flea market Ringers, always means a Fox or an OS. PAs and the like are beautiful objects. Electric motors and batteries invoke no love.
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The Question posed here is; What is the future of IC? Lots of comments here but few direct answers.
Lets go back to 1952 when my father and I got into Gas Models. First item we got was a Firebaby with a spitzy engine. Next model was a Ringmaster and a Fox 35. What a wonderful difference that was. So much better. Easier to fly and performance was way passed the firebay. Note in that day there was no consideration to get an Ignition engine. Why? The glow plug which came out only four years earlier had revolutionized the engines. Moving to more recent times we have had some innovating changes in our event like 4 stroke power. But 4 stroke has not had the impact like the glow plug. There was the Pipe equipped engines. Again no real impact like the glow plug had. So where are we now? We are probably at the apex of the IC engine power plants. They are excellent. Now the new challenge comes along and that is Electric power. It has been with us now for what 5 years or so? Has it taken over the sport? answer NO it has not. OK lets look at some other factors. Back in 1952 we had Hobby shops. This is where we got our supplies. The operators for the most part got the latest and greatest items for us to purchase. Another factor is that the generation we where in was hungry for things that we could build and use. This is all gone today. Gas Models was a big deal in those days. What remains of that era is of course (I'm sorry to say) is RC. If you say you build or fly model airplanes to someone they will say "Oh RC."
So the future is? IC is here to stay probably until it is outlawed or we all pass on. As for the future of Electrics I say this. If CL survives our passing the electrics will be the dominate power for these models. Why? Because the possibilities that the computer controlled model has are only limited by your imagination. Scale will be the first event that will be hit hard by this technology. Imagine the electric powered scale bomber with all the operating features actuated by the computer within the model. The only limiting factor is the AMA. There archaic rules and clumsy rule change methods highly restrict the advancements that are possible in our sport.
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Chuck
I think you hit on a part of the animosity, namely the AMA rule process. Like in RC pattern, the rules have set up electric with a distinct disadvantage in the weight issue. As with RC pattern, however, electrics can overcome it. The two systems should compete at parity. I did a comparison of a PA .51 and comparable electric system layout by actually building and weighing two airplane front ends. The weights came out 2 ounces lighter for electric and cg one inch further back for electric vs a PA .51 with header and pipe and fuel tank layout with fuel. No game breaker either way. Airplane design could certainly allow for either system, just like plane design can be modified to allow for 4 stroke weight and cg differences. Please, lets not let this get into another rules discussion though. My point is that there is as with RC pattern, enough power available to overcome the handicaps of the rules. But unlike RC pattern, there are other things operating in CL aerobatics, the age of the competitors and tradition. Just look at the posts already in this thread. A lot of people just like glow motors. Call it tradition, the smell, the joy of just tuning a motor. Its all fun to many people. This is not a living for most of us, its fun! One person's fun may be a full scratch build with hand rubbed dope finish. Another's may be an ARF. Should be no distracting one from the other. Just what different people find as enjoyable.
Randy is right. Both are going to exist for the foreseeable future. People will win with both. Those who fly glow and do it really well can certainly compete against those who fly electric. Just like a ST .60 won the worlds this year against all the "modern" stuff. It was a guy who knew the motor really well, developed a really good plane around it, and practiced a ton and flew very well and got breaks of good conditions. Nothing new in any of that.
I for one enjoy going out to fly and seeing a bunch of different stuff. I don't want to see everyone with the same airplane and same paint scheme, or the same motors. I enjoy variety in the hobby. I never saw identical planes and stuff when I was a kid. Everyone's was different. Nice to see electric developing. It brings more originality back into the hobby which was one of the things that drew me to it. I've converted to electric because I enjoy it more than I enjoy glow. I've done the same in RC. I only have 3 glow rc planes remaining and when they are worn out I will be all electric. Doesn't mean I don't like to see others enjoying glow. I still love all the things associated with it. For me right now electric is more fun. Do what you enjoy. Its still about the flying. Let everyone participate without predjudice. That is what will make the hobby strongest.
bob branch
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Bob,
I understand all that you wrote. Of course my last comment in my post is about the rules process. I believe back in the day (50's) The AMA was behind the curve of progress and rules where something that where coming about to match what was happening in the field. Our CL activities where moving fast and new ideas where coming up all the time. It was a time of innovation and fun. The rules process may have been exactly as they are today. I do not know. Still things where happening. RC being one of them. I recall the radio equipment was advancing all the time galloping ghost comes to mind. A method of having a controllable elevator and rudder. Very clever. I don't recall any of this being a problem or any real argument's about its use. The BOM rule came to be because Dads where building models for there kids and the kids used them in contests and winning. The other kids not having this advantage being the victims. Now I want to list the advantages of using the electric systems.
1. finish you model with anything you want to.
2. no need to adjust this and that, tank position, needle valve etc.
3. No overruns.
4. No starting problems.
5. No need for a stooge or helper.
6. No noise.
7. No mess.
OK that's enough for now. So why isn't everyone switching? How about cost. How about loving what they are doing now. The electric thing is just new and isn't as simple a conversion as was the glow plug. Let the process continue. For me I am staying with IC even though it is Old School. Afterall I am Old School. Soon to be 72 not in the best of health and happy to be here. Back to the AMA thing. I am not the only one unhappy with them. I try not to be real vocal about it because the AMA no longer serves my activity as I think it should it being 99% for RC.
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You know me, I am IC all the way!!
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Spark ignition hasn't completely disappeared. People collect them and pay big bucks for them. Who collects electric motors!!!???? Will you see an outrunner motor bring the price that a Dooling .29 or .60 brings on eBay!!?????? Large R/C models fly on Spark ignition gas/oil fuel, ain't no electric motors available for them. Cost is a big factor, electric ain't cheaper, other than the fact that you don't have to buy paper towels and 409 any more. I would be curious to see how long the motors last, batteries last and such. There is a place for electric models, just like there is a place for diesels. But what I would really like to see is DYNOJET STUNT!!!. Think about it, no more 30 and 40 dollar props!!!!! y1
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
Long Live Super Tigers!!!
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Have avoided posting on this for several reasons, Delete if needed Robert.
I will try to be nice with this.
I have been working on, starting enjoying IC engines since before 10 years old.
In recent years after introduction of Lipo batteries have found EP to be great for micro and sub micro use.
With high discharge rate set ups the power can be simply mind blowing for short periods of time.
Then remove battery for charge or swapping with fresh and charging(after it cools) so it will be freshly charged
For its next round.A pain.
Bring 10 charged batteries to the field so an entire afternoon can be spent flying instead of charging, But most of us do live in the real world and probably would not do this.
All through the above attention to preventing battery fires must stay in your mind.
In fact it is best if Lipos are never left unattended while charging.
Lipo powered airplane do seem to often go up in smoke after crashes sometimes. Loss of motor, receiver, servos, wheels, well the whole airplane.
I have seen only lumps of burned metal left and just before that it was $1000+ worth of equipment.
Pollution from the mfg of the components for electric is fairly high and very toxic.
OR with IC , fuel it up, heat the plug, flip the prop,Fly. simple, quick.
The pollution problem is way less then the propaganda claims, and is probably not even pollution.
Possibly soon none of this will matter as we rapidly loose individual freedom and choice in this country.
The Fascist(closest description I have) in charge and their followers are rapidly dragging us in that direction against all common sense.
In reading some of the above post it was a surprise to find that Alinsky's tactics have made its way into the C/L side of the hobby. Hoped I could avoid it and have not visited the electric section.
November may be key in what the future direction of glow/gas/electric/hobbies and so much more in our lives go.
Although I have uses for Glow, Gas and electric power its probably best if I stay away from "Gettin All Amped up".
Dan
I do have a Dynajet that a friend used on a Stunt plane in early 60s.
I was a young one then but the old timers say it would do the entire pattern with rounded squares and just barely enough fuel to finish.
Darrel said if he wasn't super smooth in flying it flame out resulted.
I have converted old 8s and super 8 film to VHS and trying to figure out how to upload to youtube.
The films are from 50s and 60s combat, speed, stunt contest all over the La and Texas area.
Some of you may be in them. The Jet, Don Stills first Stuka Stunt , young Me flying combat.
I think the Dallas internats is the first contest on the film, combat over pavement!.
David
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The folks who fly noise makers love them. Their ragged, dirty clothing and bad hygiene indicative of their other worldly preoccupations. Clearly the unkempt IC flier is a profoundly spiritual person. The electric guy on the other hand lives life on the surface, clean and sweet smelling, never penetrating into life's mysteries.
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The folks who fly noise makers love them. Their ragged, dirty clothing and bad hygiene indicative of their other worldly preoccupations. Clearly the unkempt IC flier is a profoundly spiritual person. The electric guy on the other hand lives life on the surface, clean and sweet smelling, never penetrating into life's mysteries.
Good Alinsky Dennis. LL~
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The folks who fly noise makers love them. Their ragged, dirty clothing and bad hygiene indicative of their other worldly preoccupations. Clearly the unkempt IC flier is a profoundly spiritual person. The electric guy on the other hand lives life on the surface, clean and sweet smelling, never penetrating into life's mysteries.
Profoundly Hilarious. LL~
You know, now that I think about it, I didn't get into this game back when I was young child, (stop laughing-I was a child once) because it was easy. I kinda liked it because it was tough. Granted, that may be a strange thing for a 5 year old, but that's the way it was.
In terms of pecking order, I would rate electrics as the easiest, 2 stroke IC's next, and then 4 strokes. Maybe my love of 4 strokes is because it is a little bit tougher than all the rest. It requires a little bit more of you. Stunt in general requires quite a bit more of you than other hobbies. It’s what makes it so satisfying.
There is something deeply satisfying about an IC motor. Man, opening the box for the first time, of a brand new PA or a Saito-is like Christmas. This may sound weird but, they actually smell good!! I design and cut my own foam wings. It’s much tougher than just purchasing them from a good supplier but, you know, I like it that way.
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The folks who fly noise makers love them. Their ragged, dirty clothing and bad hygiene indicative of their other worldly preoccupations. Clearly the unkempt IC flier is a profoundly spiritual person. The electric guy on the other hand lives life on the surface, clean and sweet smelling, never penetrating into life's mysteries.
Ah, yes, like the mystery, "How fast will it go this time?" New mysteries await with electrickery. Who are Eli the Ice Man and the promiscuous Violet? And what gain leads those Polish people to that imaginary axis? I predict no better hygiene and the even fouler smell of burnt phenolic.
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...Who are Eli the Ice Man and the promiscuous Violet? And what gain leads those Polish people to that imaginary axis? I predict no better hygiene and the even fouler smell of burnt phenolic.
GREAT!! H^^
George
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Everyone keeps saying there is simply none of this and none of that and on and on.....
I have flown a full tilt El setup in some junky air and I was impressed with the power, the delivery of the power across the entire flight was really the most impressive part of it.
I am also witness to a new El setup on a profile right now. So far each flight has needed a new prop that required a different amount of voltage through the motor. This meant there volt meter was run on the motor for a sec so the proper rpm range/volts could be detected and set. This is no different then bolting on props on an IC and setting the needle with a tach.
Hunting for the "correct" prop for a plane will never go away. That part of the equation is a very real one and it takes many flights to get "the one" for a particular model that will work in most conditions. I dont see how what is turning it will take that part of the equation away.
I was also witness to what happens when one bolts on an entirely different type of prop and didnt remember to get [it] correct. About half way through a 2 minute test flight the system was smoking. At landing the ESC was melted. The motor was fried and wouldnt turn and the battery was burnt beyond use. This happened at about the one minute mark. Entire system gone. Start over.
I have had many accidental lean runs on my ICs, from FPs to PAs including some 4s, and not once did a one minute lean run toast the entire system front to back. I have run bad fuel, wrong fuel, not enough oil, too much oil, and every time I have been able to detect the problem and move on without the whole system being torched.
I saw a crash that totaled everything in the plane, motor, ESC, battery, the whole shootin' match. To come back from that would have required another plane (many people have back ups on hand no biggie there) and a WHOLE new EL setup front to back. Meanwhile I blasted a PA 65 straight into the tarmac! Switched planes, borrowed a header and pipe (you will find many of these in your competitors tool boxes :) ) bolted it to the just crashed PA65 added a new 3 dollar plastic tank and I was back in the air.
When I store my fuel in the garage it doesnt blow up. I have read story after story about so and so charging their battery and they had a fire or the battery heating up and was on the verge of catching fire. When I go to the field and refuel my plane I dont have to store the fuel in a fire proof case of some sort while it preps for use. This is a real concern and should not be overlooked by any means. I am not trying to make light of it because if you had a house fire due a model airplane battery you would be pissed off not to mention many other things. yes you have to safely store your fuel but that usually means out the reach of children and not exposed to open flames. That is all well within your own control and very easy to do. Battery fires can happen and do happen even when all the proper precautions were followed to the "T"
For 8 years in a row I had a flip and fly rig that was so repeatable I could go 6 months without changing the needle setting once. Then when it required changing it was usually about 1/4 turn out. Then continue until the flying season was over. Same motor, same prop, same PIPE! The only required maintenance was I had to change the tank twice due to the wear on the stopper from the oil. That is a $3 part and any hobby shop in the country. It was a top of the game rig too. Took me to the Top 5 twice, 1st time as the rookie, and had many many wins locally. All in all it is estimated it had around 2000 flights at is time of destruction. :(
There was mention of the return of the gas powered car over the past few years. I think that is mainly because the ease of running the engines at this point in time. They are very well constructed with very close tolerances that make for exceptional repeatable usable performance. The newer car motors can take a serious beating and never even think twice. They rev like it is nothing on 8%oil. I have an OS 26 4 stroke car motor that will rev 24000 rpms all day. I rebuilt it with an airplane crack shaft and put it on a profile. I used the correct small aluminum tuned pipe that is supplied with that motor. It would spin up 12500-15000 depending diameter on a small APC prop. It was really cool and VERY quiet. Loads of fun. They even have some IC car motors with electric starters right on the back of the motor. Hook up the battery and the glo driver and press the start engine button. It is pretty slick for sure.
I guess what I really trying to say is they (all systems) have their advantages and their disadvantages. What some will perceive as a disadvantage others will not. That is pretty much how it goes.
But one is not the be all end all better than the other when it comes to stunt. Stunt is odd in that there are so many ways to get to the winners circle and most if not all the time it is the person on the handle rather that what is bolted into the nose of the plane.
I look at all of this stuff from competitive pair of glasses. I follow the "If I think it can help me win I will do it" type of thinking. If it doesnt help the plane garner points of some sort it doesnt get added.
I am close to an El system that is being tested out, rung out, and worked out. If I can see how it would help me win I will steal the ideas and use them to my advantage.
All in all I think it will have its place and I think it will be a large place but the IC wont be replaced until it simply no longer available/legal.
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Amen Doug!!!!!!!!!!!
You and I seem to have the same problem. Those PA's just run perfect every time. I never have to move my needle more than a 1/4 turn to get it right, no matter where I am. Appling GA, Muncie IN, or Gyula Hungary its always the same. :o
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What Derek said.
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The end of IC is going to be from the new powers given to the EPA by the OBAMA camp.
When they look in our direction that all its going to take.
Fines for use of methanol or $500 a gallon fuel?
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Don't hold your breath,
IC engines will be around models for a long long time to come,
What I don't see is why a very few people want to see them all go away, and spend much time making up derogatory names for them and constantly trying to convince people to switch over, and telling things that are simply not true.
Fly whatever you want, let other fly whatever they like without the attacks on their chosen power trains, whatever it is Electric , IC, Co2, rubber or ??
I speak with many many people every day and most feel this way, a few just want to have all slimers,) infernal combustion, oilers, noise makers)..whatever your derogatory name of the day is to dump them an go to EL, still a very few other want the El. to go away and have their own playground.
Precisely.
We have this sort of thing every time something new comes along - ST46 vs "Schneurle of the Week", ST60 VS Tuned Pipe, 2-stroke vs 4-stroke, and now IC vs Electric. People seem to want to jump on the bandwagon of various perceived "revolutuons" and once they do, there's an unfortunate tendency to become fanboys, and unable to objectively respond to commentary that contradicts their favored approach. ST60 VS Tuned pipe went from the early 90's till about 2006 and darn near led to the destruction of the event entirely. We are still living with the aftereffects. But something very similar in nature happened with 2-stroke/4-stroke (still going on at a low level of hostility) and now with electric vs. IC. In the latter case it has already been blown into a conspiracy by some.
At it's essence stunt is and should be the simplest event of all. There are negligible technical rules - you can run anything you want in terms of engine or airplane (as long as you build it yourself). The only real restrictions is that it has to fit into 70 feet. The rules are, and should be, completely agnostic over what is going on with the airplane or engine. You show up with your best effort, with little limitations, and no one really cares what it is as long as the tricks look like the rule book. I think that's one big reason that stunt has been so successful over the long haul - you can make most anything work if you know what you are doing.
So it's completely unnecessary to divide ourselves into camps based on any affiliation. The only camp I am in is the "how does Brett Buck win more stunt contests" camp. If I thought a Dyna-Jet was the hot setup I would be flying that.
Brett
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Precisely.
So it's completely unnecessary to divide ourselves into camps based on any affiliation. The only camp I am in is the "how does Brett Buck win more stunt contests" camp. If I thought a Dyna-Jet was the hot setup I would be flying that.
Brett
We are basically having trouble coming to terms with the "era of inclusion". That is, we never really did get over the Fox 35 or die era. The issue as I see it, is not so much the proliferation of powerplants but, the SPEED at which these new powerplants are taking hold. Stunt flyers, who tend to be a conservative lot, seem to be having a tough time coming to grips with this “pace of inclusion”.
RC flyers have always seemed to more readily willing adopt new technology because, IMHO their sport is inherently more technologically oriented. But, they are not as tightly knit as we are. Stunt flyers have an unusually strong sense of our history. There is this deep seated feeling that who we are, and what we do, is special. Consequently, and by extension, that makes what we use, special.
Brett touched on something essential in my opinion. And that is, we operate under a very high degree of freedom. Interestingly enough, it is that very high degree of freedom, which I believe, tends to impart a certain “stress” on the stunt community, when a significantly new technology appears. Because of this freedom, and it’s fostering of independent technological thinking, there is this latent fear of being “forced” to adopt this new technology by default. That is, even though you can still use whatever you want, you will not be able to because of technological obsolescence.
As an "old timer", I am not concerned one bit about the different powerplants because; I know it all comes down to who flicks their wrist in the right way-at the right time. I am still waiting for someone to out-do Gene Schaeffers, Flushing Meadows, Fox 15 powered Magician flight!!!
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Amazing as it may sound, I have nothing to say.
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The only camp I am in is the "how does Brett Buck win more stunt contests" camp. If I thought a Dyna-Jet was the hot setup I would be flying that.
Brett
And I'd be driving long distances to watch and hopefully launch your plane........
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I blame the top 5 crowd! They keep finding winning power plant combo's and win with them! How dare they!? Lower rung schmucks like I are going nuts trying to keep up with the last year's NATS winner power plant combo!
H^^
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Quote from: Brett Buck on September 09, 2010, 03:48:45 PM
The only camp I am in is the "how does Brett Buck win more stunt contests" camp. If I thought a Dyna-Jet was the hot setup I would be flying that.
Brett
And I'd be driving long distances to watch and hopefully launch your plane........
;D I would be holding fingers in my ears and staying several yards back........ LL~
R
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Amazing as it may sound, I have nothing to say.
Well put Randy!
I have something to say, but I'll keep it to myself.
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I blame the top 5 crowd! They keep finding winning power plant combo's and win with them! How dare they!? Lower rung schmucks like I are going nuts trying to keep up with the last year's NATS winner power plant combo!
H^^
I know how you feel. I build so slowly that I have engines that go obsolete before they get installed.
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I know how you feel. I build so slowly that I have engines that go obsolete before they get installed.
And as we discussed earlier, you need to improve your contest rigging methods.
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I know how you feel. I build so slowly that I have engines that go obsolete before they get installed.
Howard
I think that's a left over effect of the combat or rat engine of the month syndrome we suffered that started in the 70s. n~
Don't feel left out,I suffer also. My newest engine is a ST60V R/C bought around 1981!
It gets to be my next stunt engine, With a fine new ring from Frank.
Should I port it?
Recently mounted an O&R .33RH and flew it on a new build. chug chug chug. #^
David
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I think it's tragic that Howard can spend 8 years building a plane, finish it with a power plant that was popular when he started the project and still be very competitive. The rat.
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Hey Brett!
The Dyna Jet was done. It was flown one evening at the '61 Wollow Grove Nats. As I recall it flew very well, but I don't remember how much of the pattern was done. It was not whispering like an electric, and certainly was not a lawn dart. I have no idea who the people in the picture are. Maybe someone can help.
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Given the latest results it takes a long time for engines to go obsolete ...like over 40 years.
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"The Future of IC?" ... is bright, at least for me!
Run what you want, but run it for the right reasons. The lemming effect of the latest greatest is alive and well in stunt. I'm as guilty as anyone. I ran ST60's for years, I had really just mastered the nuances of that setup when I decided I would just "skip" that whole pipe era thing and just had to have a 4-Stroke...whoops... not that there's anything really wrong with 4-strokes, but the learning curve set my stunt program back to square one. Not a great thing when you are also trying to climb the stunt ladder. ...and finally went with Randy's PA's. I can honestly say, I've never taken a new PA apart, not even a head shim... I barely turn the needle except during extreme atmospheric changes (which effects all power trains, even my buddies electrics have to dial out the pot's). I run one prop and just shift the nitro between 5-10%. My first PA in my original Starfire has well over 750 flights on it. The pipe is like new, and I flew it a couple weeks ago for fun and to play with some trim idea's, and the engine was flip and fly...didn't even touch the needle.
No power setup is idiot proof, (but my PA's come close, if you run them exactly as told by the maker) and I've yet to see any of my friends who have gone to electric have instant success either. The panacia of instant success is over stated if you ask me. I've seen several flying sessions wasted with 2 minute test flights that didn't give the wanted result, go back home, order more parts, try again in a week or two. I've even seen "flame outs" and a crash result from it. (evidently the timer/esc can shut the whole thing down if it's drawing too much power). I've seen buddy's go through several brand ESC's, batteries, etc trying to find the magic bullet that will give them the run they want. Replicating someone else's run is JUST AS DIFFICULT AS IC because it is still very much air-frame influenced. What ran perfect for so-and-so in his sleek thin wing light stunter doesn't work in your big draggy thick wing slightly porky world beater. What, you thought just because it was electric that the laws of physic's didn't apply? Heh... sorry, you're still on your own for the most part and will have to dial it in through trial and error like everyone else.
The typical day at the field for the electric guys I observe seems to go something like this:
Arrive at the field with your partially charged batteries (can't store them fully charged)
Cozy up to the charger and top off your first battery before you can fly. ( you do have electrical outlets at your field, right? No? Oh, I've seen a few cars getting jump started after re-charging their LiPo's a few time, fun fun fun)
Put up your first flight.
Land, run to the plane and pull the arming saftey (you do use a saftey arming plug, don't you?)
Pull the battery immediately and examine it for "puff". Oh no, my $$$ battery is puffy, do I toss it? Time to gamble. Will the cost influence your decision?
Run to the charger, pull off the battery that was charging for the next flight, put on the battery you just flew and hook it up so you can see how much charge is left.
Pull out your log book, and make a notation for that battery of what flight number that last one was, and the reading you just got from the charger.
Rinse, lather & repeat as many times as you want to fly that day...
THEN... don't forget to discharge partially any of those batteries you charged that you didn't get to use that day (can't store them charged)
Go home, put your batteries in the battery bunker and make sure the bunker isn't too close to anything flamable. (yes, flames have been known to escape the bunkers)
Sigh... I'm way too lazy for all that work. I roll out my lines, fuel up, flip and fly.
One guy in our club crashed his little super clown electric... the LiPo pack was accordian'd and we were all in a quandry as to what to do with it. We ended up setting off to the side of the field and waited to see if it would spontaneously combust. Never did, but he didn't want to ride home with it in his car just the same... and I didn't blame him. I think he told me later he got a bucket of salt water and "killed" the battery on the way home.
I belong to a very large club, mostly R/C'ers. 200 members or so. As electrics have gained popularity we had what seemed like one tragic fire reported per monthly club meeting. Either someone's shop, garage, trailer, plane or vehical burns up with their LiPo's. Many have gone back to IC because of the cost of keeping electric systems up to date with fresh batteries, close calls with fires, etc. The biggest hold outs for electric in our club are the little EP foamy crowd, most that tried them in Helicopters and IMAC, or 3D have gone back to IC.
Most of what I said here is purely just my personal observation. I don't claim to have all the answers, or to even be right, but I just have to object to the hype that it's all over except for the fat lady singing for IC. Like it's not "maybe", to some people's thinking, it's just a matter of "when"... that's pretty outrageous to me.
I don't care who wins the Nat's with what this year or in the next five years. Some of those guys could win with a brick on a string with enough practice. I'm not saying there aren't some advantages to EC over IC, but there are also some, if not more advantages of IC over EC, at least for now and for my way of thinking and use.
So... I'll stick to my lead-in statement, The future if IC is bright, at least for me.
EricV
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Well after reading Eric's post, I have to agree with him. I remember the early days when there were K&B, Fox, McCoy and Johnson engines used in competition. OK Cub was for sport or scale flying. I got into regular competiton and Fox was the engine of choice with Johnson the second choice for Combat and Rat Race. I was the first to have a new K&B. It was good for rat race, but in combat I kept losing too many props because of crankshaft breakage. But, like it was stated, almost every month/year it was a new engine to stay competitive. Once I got my first Supre Tigre, that is the one I stayed with. Had to cover my comat planes every time Duke Fox would come walking up. But, it got to where I couldn't stay with the program even with Navy Carrier as far as engines. I started flying stunt after an individual watched me flying just for grins one day. He said, "Why not do the pattern"? With a little coaching and him flying my plane to show me it would do the pattern I was off.
I too have thought of electric power, but, then the initial cost put me off fast. A PA or RO-Jett could be had for that kind of money. I also did not fly that much. It is nice to pull a plane off the hook that has not been flown for several months. Just check the filter, fuel line and mounting bolts as well as the prop nut. Fuel it up after burping on the ground, hook the battery up, flip and go fly. H^^
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"The Future of IC?" ... is bright, at least for me!
So... I'll stick to my lead-in statement, The future if IC is bright, at least for me.
EricV
Eric great great post. H^^
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"The typical day at the field for the electric guys I observe seems to go something like this:
Arrive at the field with your partially charged batteries (can't store them fully charged)
Cozy up to the charger and top off your first battery before you can fly. ( you do have electrical outlets at your field, right? No? Oh, I've seen a few cars getting jump started after re-charging their LiPo's a few time, fun fun fun)
Put up your first flight.
Land, run to the plane and pull the arming saftey (you do use a saftey arming plug, don't you?)
Pull the battery immediately and examine it for "puff". Oh no, my $$$ battery is puffy, do I toss it? Time to gamble. Will the cost influence your decision?
Run to the charger, pull off the battery that was charging for the next flight, put on the battery you just flew and hook it up so you can see how much charge is left.
Pull out your log book, and make a notation for that battery of what flight number that last one was, and the reading you just got from the charger.
Rinse, lather & repeat as many times as you want to fly that day...
THEN... don't forget to discharge partially any of those batteries you charged that you didn't get to use that day (can't store them charged)
Go home, put your batteries in the battery bunker and make sure the bunker isn't too close to anything flamable. (yes, flames have been known to escape the bunkers)
Oh Dear !!! - Oh Dear Oh Dear Oh Dear - So misinformed
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Well, I guess I returned to CL just in time.. for the 30+ yrs that I left off , thinking there would be probably no more glow engine around and everything will be Electric powered & all r/c. As I still have some CL planes with ST.35, TD.15 etc engines on them from the 70s. So I didn't bother to look further. Till one evening when I was a bit bored and did a search for CL, then found some CL youtube videos with people still using glow engines, and the rest was history! 3 yrs later.. now the electric stuff are really kicking in. It seem nice, cause its consistent in a few ways. I most likely run both.. as I like my 2-strokes & 4-strokes. :)
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Not worried about the future of the fuel burning engine that brought me into this sport 54 years ago, I'm worried about the future of our sport altogether. I've never been a competitor, just a lover of CL airplanes, and have always had a passion for the sleek stunt ships. I wonder who is going to carry the torch so to speak. All the people that I see in our sport, with a small exception are my age [63] or older - granted there are a few exceptions at the handle, but wonder about CD's, judges, and folks to run the events in general and it seems like I'm losing heros and friends at an alarming rate. Joshua 1;9 Nick
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OK - I'll throw my two bits worth in! A long devoted flyer over here in the land down under and until last December using IC motors to power my many stunt ships.. Over the previous 10 years I had mainly been using Saito 56's and 72's and having a varying amount of success with them. Found that when they were working well - they did, but could suddenly go off the boil at the most in opportune times - normally just as I was about to fly the first round at a big competition! So I put my (sometimes) trusty Saitos away and went for a Stalker .61, after quite a bit of internal work the engine managed to put out enough power to pull the skin off a custard tart and I had an enjoyable 6 months or so flying with it - again with a degree of success.
Then the sky opened and an angel fell to earth clutching an electric motor to her well endowed bosom (well not exactly but I thought I'd take a bit of poetic license!) I've now been flying with EL powered Firecracker models since February of this year - had hundreds of flights with a set of 6 x 4 cell 3600, 3700 & 3000mah batteries and not had to mix any fuels since last December!!
Went flying with a couple of IC Stunt flying friends 2 days ago, it took one of them 3 flights before he had his motor running well enough to do the pattern (but then it wasn't running well), my other friend managed to fly the pattern on his second flight (but had his engine out of the model in between to rectify some fuel problem) - Meanwhile, I put my trusty EL powered Firecracker out on the circle, pressed the button and away I went. (After my helper released the model of course) I had 6 great flights - constant repeatable motor runs. Motor set at around 9300 rpm now and the model is lapping at about 5.7 - 5.8 secs/lap on 68.5 ft lines. It became a little windy and turbulent (the circle is very close to some trees), but still my 54oz model just did what it had to do - without fuss. At the end of the flight I removed the drained battery and replaced it with a charged one - a quick release cowl and the changeover is done in about 30secs. Repeatable, time and time again. What else could a stunt pilot want?? when I speak to other fliers and praise EL I say "I can fly the model today, put it away and pick it up again in 12 months time. So long as I put another good battery in it the model should behave exactly as it did today" Can you be that confident in performance of an IC engine? No - there are too many variables... fuel, glugging up in the spray bar, sediment/gluggy oil etc in tank, the engine/glow plug being gummed up etc.
I'm certainly not selling my IC engines or models - yet, I still have several other types of aeroplanes that are fitted with IC engines and that won't change. But for Stunt and for me, I can't see a reason at the moment to go back (and I think it is a backward step for me) to IC powered stunt ships.
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.....What else could a stunt pilot want??......
Maybe this:
.....an angel...(with a)...well endowed bosom ......
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Over the previous 10 years I had mainly been using Saito 56's and 72's and having a varying amount of success with them. Found that when they were working well - they did, but could suddenly go off the boil at the most in opportune times - normally just as I was about to fly the first round at a big competition!
This post is interesting because, the Saito's AND Stalkers, (a dedicated purpose stunt motor) tend to be some of the steadiest front-ends in the business. Jose Modesto and myself, have very long experience with motors, going back to the Combat Johnsons, (if you can get those to fly stunt-you can handle anything).
The absolute most rock steady motor I have ever owned is my Super Tigre 46, which I got when I was 14 years old, and still NEVER misses. My Saito 72 is running close second. I.C. setup requires experience. That is all there is to it. Jose Modesto may be one of the worlds foremost experts on the ST 60, (he owns 10 of them) because he has been at that motor since his early teens.
Bob Reeves is an expert on the Saito 40A because, he dedicated himself to that motor, and he knows it better than most politicians know their constituents. I know my Saito 72 because I focused on that motor and I know everything I need to know about it to get it to run the way I want.
Success with any I.C. setup is all about control. Just how good you are controlling EVERY SINGLE ASPECT of the powerplant will determine your success.
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We all fly stunt for different reasons. Some fly only to win, what ever it takes. Nothing wrong with that. It has brought us many great innovation's. Then there are guys like me (probably not many), that feel like every time we make an improvement in engines, we loose something. To me there is nothing like the bark of an old Anderson Spitfire, or any of the old sparkers for that matter, flying through the pattern. Next comes Fox 35's, Fox 59's and McCoy Red Heads. Sure, it takes some finesse to make them do what you want, but that is the fun for me. The new stunt motors that are available now are just plain awesome, but they loose something for me. Heck, I have three FP 40's that ran like a sewing machine. I haven't flown them for years. Not near as much fun as a McCoy 40. That gets me down to electric. Those things are sterile. No grease and oil, no belching smoke and fire, none of that wonderful noise. When you fire up a fueled engine, be it spark or glow, the beast comes to life. Electric goes Mmmmmmmmmmm. Probably goes back to my warped child hood watching sparkers fly back in the 40's. As many of the proponents of electric have said, guys like me just want to stay in the dark ages. You know what; I think you may be onto something. But I am not going to apologize for it.
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I have recently dabbled in electric and it does have some serious advantages. One that was very nice was being able to go to the local park and fly. Not only did people not complain, they even liked it. They brought their kids over to watch it. If I hadn't burned up the motor and speed controller on a noise over I would still be flying it. I plan to build my upcoming Continental with electric power. I have been working with Eric Rule at RSM to convert the Continental to electric. I have the ESC and will be getting the motor soon.
Andy
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My Saito 72 is running close second. I.C. setup requires experience. That is all there is to it.
Success with any I.C. setup is all about control. Just how good you are controlling EVERY SINGLE ASPECT of the powerplant will determine your success.
I am not arguing that IC aren't or can't be 'good' - each to his (or her) own as far as I'm concerned. I have about 40 years experience in flying aerobatics with IC engines, 10 of those years dedicated to flying with the Saito 4 strokes - 56 & 72 and have had many thousands of flights with those. So to say I don't have experience with IC or Aerobatic flying is incorrect. On other forums I have in the past praised these engines as well. But technology continues to improve the way 'we' do things - every day in whatever we do. Its inescapable. The control of an EL motor is becoming infinite. Programs that will allow you to 'tell' the motor what Rpm you want it to do - and then it does it and doesn't alter - unless you have some sort of other program installed (gyros etc) where the motor will change rpms at a given point, times of flight, delays to start - exact science to the second. Some IC's may give close to perfect runs 'until' some errant grass seed or bug happens to find its way into your fuel system - then it all goes to pot!
Since flying with 'Electrics' I've found a vast improvement in reliability and overall performance of my models. There is always 'tweaking' that can be done to improve them, but the same can be said for anything powered by an IC engine - thats what 'we' as modellers 'do' - we try to get the best out of our model and powerplant setup. I have friends who have tried EL and found that its 'not for them', and I guess it's not for everybody. But if you have a chance to fly someones 'good' EL model take up the offer - I'm sure you will be suprised. The friends I have allowed to fly my 2 best models have been VERY impressed. One has taken up EL flight in a HUGE way others are a little slower coming to terms with what will probably become the future.
There is a cost issue in the early stages of conversion, (Batteries, ESC's, Timers, Motors, Chargers, props etc) - to get to a competitive point an initial outlay of about $900 (Aud) will be required, so for those with a good performing model with an IC power plant and without excess funds, I can understand the reluctance to spend more money.
At this stage, personally, I can't see a reason to go back to my IC engines for Stunt competition, there just seems to be so many benefits to EL power, (lighter cleaner models that last longer due to reduced vibration is just one) - but who knows what the future holds for our sport, what's next?
Bruce
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The way is going.. Glow & Electric should not be in the same class, and really should be seperated IMHO.
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The way is going.. Glow & Electric should not be in the same class, and really should be seperate IMO.
In the end it's still down to the ability of the flier. I don't think there should be a separate class - that would ruin our sport. To 'level' the playing field rule changes need to be made so electronic timers can be allowed for installation into IC powered models, I think its only a matter of time before this happens.
R%%%% Just to clarify as well.... In my posts I am NOT telling anyone to give up their IC engines immediately and go to EL - if you want to do either - that's up to you. Its just another option to enjoy our sport, how you manage that is purely a personal choice and I am not going to criticize anyone for that. We do not want to lose sight of what what it is we do and why we do it. We can all enjoy it together. I've tried and used IC gear for many years and still do in other models besides F2B and as said, won't be selling it at any time in the foreseeable future. But for those that haven't yet tried EL - Don't knock it until you have tried it! #^
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As far as I know there is nothing in the rules that says you can't use a timer. I could be wrong though.
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I could be wrong too (am often told that I am) but I think the FAI rules state something along the lines that indicate that any operation on the model HAS to be made through the control lines. Electrics are legal - and I don't know what rule changes have been made to allow timers etc in those models. However at this time I didn't think 'timers' were allowed in IC models - which is something that definitely has to be changed if this is the case. b1
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3. Electronic augmentation systems now being schemed for electric stunt planes will be applied to internal combustion engines, making them competitive again if rulemakers don't outlaw them.
5. Bikers won't give up Harleys for plug-ins.
Number 3
With a Hall effect or light sensor, a Chip, miro servo and battery connected to a throttled engine we should have all we need.
The hard part at least for me would be programing the chip.
I posted this idea somewhere about 3 years ago and figured some one would have one working by now or banned from AMA competition.
So far I find no evidence of either.
A spark advance/retard unit in combination with throttle would be nice! #^
So now we haul around a Lipo......... ~^
A question that has bugged me for many years is the British go Motoring. Well how do they do this?
The best I come up with is to pull the spark plugs out of the ENGINE and drive around on the starter MOTOR. HB~> LL~
On the other hand we have motor boats....just try an say engine boat and make it sound right. n~
We went out and engined around in the boat.
David
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I could be wrong too (am often told that I am) but I think the FAI rules state something along the lines that indicate that any operation on the model HAS to be made through the control lines. Electrics are legal - and I don't know what rule changes have been made to allow timers etc in those models. However at this time I didn't think 'timers' were allowed in IC models - which is something that definitely has to be changed if this is the case. b1
yep - you are wrong - timers/fuel cutoffs (and electronic starters) were allowed in FAI a couple of years ago.
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yep - you are wrong - timers/fuel cutoffs (and electronic starters) were allowed in FAI a couple of years ago.
Well - in this case I am glad I'm wrong. Puts IC users on the same playing field as EL fliers - if they want to be.
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A question that has bugged me for many years is the British go Motoring. Well how do they do this?
The best I come up with is to pull the spark plugs out of the ENGINE and drive around on the starter MOTOR. HB~> LL~
On the other hand we have motor boats....just try an say engine boat and make it sound right. n~
We went out and engined around in the boat.
David
motor:
1. Something, such as a machine or an engine, that produces or imparts motion.
2. A device that converts any form of energy into mechanical energy, especially an internal-combustion engine or an arrangement of coils and magnets that converts electric current into mechanical power.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/motor
engine:
a. A machine that converts energy into mechanical force or motion.
b. Such a machine distinguished from an electric, spring-driven, or hydraulic motor by its use of a fuel.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/engine
So no matter what you have under the hood of a car or on the nose of a stunter it is a motor.
Two stroke, 4 stroke, turbine, or electric, doesn't matter as long as it makes it move.
However electric motors are not engines.
Pat MacKenzie
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If I hadn't burned up the motor and speed controller on a noise over I would still be flying it.
Andy
Does not sound like any advantage to me. When I nose over my engine just stops.
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Does not sound like any advantage to me. When I nose over my engine just stops.
This is one of the safety problems with electrics. People use them without fuses or circuit breakers. An airplane that noses over might burn up components, or the prop might start turning again-- when the pilot runs to the airplane to stop it from burning up, for example. I'm glad to learn that my Schulze controllers have stopped-motor protection, but I still plan to use a fuse.
Other electric-plane safety issues are high-energy, zero-internal-resistance batteries and silence. To paraphrase Paul Smith, an electric CL model is like a rattlesnake without a rattle.
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On safety. Always install a "circuit breaker". I use a Deans Ultra plug 2-pin set. It is wired right in series with the battery. I can install a fully charged LiPo at home, and not worry about accidentally starting. On the flight line, when my helper is holding, only then do I insert the shorting plug which connects the battery to everything else. When I remember, I tell my pit crew that I will fetch the plane after landing. That is so I can remove the shorting plug, making it again safe.
Without this feature, the only thing keeping the motor from running is a mysterious signal from the flight timer. Since I don't trust anything electric, I need the fail-safe cut-off.
Floyd
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Thanks Pat
These 2 terms have provided me with a source of fun for many years. Did you know you can actually make smoke come out of an engineers ears with this subject?
During my young days the engineers around me tried to beat into my head that an engine made energy internally and a motor's energy came from external source.(and various other versions of this)
My comments would be some of the following:
So its a Steam Motor?(external combustion motor?)
you gona put motor oil in your engine?
Henry Ford blew it ?( Ford Motor Co.)
Detroit is known as "Motor City"
So whats up with GM?( now known as Government Motors)
The owner of a local large engineering firm:
"wow! I like my new BMW 6 cylinder motorcycle" Ugh, Tommy that's an engine.( smoke and fire)
Looks like a set of motor mounts holding that engine in place.
The boat thing
The Brit thing
After a very large release of smoke from one engineer his comment to me was "I don't trust civilians with technical definitions"( well Dad, go look it up)
Thanks for your ammo Pat, this afternoon I plan to go to town and make smoke come out of engineers.
I know a building where 25-30 of them "hang out". Will have Fire dept on stand by alert.
Is it ok if a motor mount is used between the airframe and engine?(ICE)
And the best definition yet that sorta fits is Motors go wizzz and engines go VROOM, VROOM!
The arguments over these 2 terms may never end, at least it looks that way on the Engineering forums. n~
Anyone have any thoughts on electronic engine management for our Internal Combustion Motivation Devices ?
On second thought it has not rained in the last 30 or so hours and its cool so more Stunt practice is in order.
Now where did I put that gallon engine fuel for the Stunt Motors.
David
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Floyd,
I'm glad to see you using a "safety plug", thanks for posting this important message. This is an excellent safety feature that we should all use. Many of us have been using one for a few years now, and we are trying to get the word out to make it a universally used item on ECL planes. The next issue of SN will have an article on this, and other safety features for ECL.
I think Howard is referring to the other issue of having some form of "breaker" to shut the system down "automatically" right after a prop strike and before the system is damaged.
Howard,
I'm very glad you brought this up. It is always good to hear from one of the top flyers in CLPA, and one of my CL combat heros! I agree with you that this is an important safety, and expense issue. All quality ESCs (Schulze, Castle Creations Phoenix, Jeti, Hacker, etc.) have had this safety shut off feature for the past several years. I highly recommend that everyone who gets into ECL only use an ESC with this safety feature. (This is one of the many reasons I recommend that people stay away from cheap ESCs and other cheap E equip.) This feature is adjustable during the ESC setup by the pilot. The default setting is usually a "medium sensitivity". This is not really low enough to immediately shut down the system in a CL prop strike. It will give audio (and visual inside the plane, not very useful to us ;-) warnings that lets the pilot know that your system needs your attention, as in HELP ME, HELP ME, ETC. This is OK in the RC environment (where 99% of ESCs are sold) because we can almost instantly move the throttle stick to a zero power setting. Obviously we can not do this in a timely manner in ECL. After shutdown the system has a reset feature.
In ECL we should use the low sensitivity setting on our ESC and this will shut down the system after any prop strike, or other mishap on the pilots part. This is a very reliable shut down feature and will save your system from harm.
When I first started using E power 30 years ago we did use fuses. Our ESCs were primitive for brushed can motors and did not have any shut down features. Today we are lucky to have very safe, reliable, feature rich ESCs that solve this problem for us. ..... But of course, your milage may vary ;-)
Regards, H^^
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I have seen a prop strike on a model with a Phoenix 50 ESC fitted. The motor stopped immediately. As said, the trick is that the sensitivity has to be 'up' - the ESC registers the extra load of a prop strike in 'amps' and stops the motor - mine are set at '50' - normal flight the highest it gets to through the pattern is about 35 - 38 amps.
Re the safety plug - I don't use a 'deans' connector or anything like that... I just have the 'Positive' cables from the battery and ESc hanging out of the cowl - push them together and poke them inside the fuse (there is still a small length of cable protruding outside the fuselage) - at the end of the flight I unplug the cables... simple and doesn't require any additional bits that might fail..