Team Trials - 2019

[Dave_Trible]

My opinion carries even less weight but those attending the team trials will have to travel the same 1500 miles regardless of when it is held.  The convenience of the 3 day weekend is nice but the tradition of the Dallas Labor Day contest goes way, way back.  It was already a "tradition" when I first flew stunt there as a Senior in 1963 when it still had the "Southwesterns" title.  At least three clubs have maintained that tradition over the years.  The weather in Tulsa is not all that different from Dallas.  We have decent, even preferable, flying weather well into November.

My reasons have a bit of a personal element.  I can't travel for family reasons so the two Dallas contests, at least for now, are my season.   Still, I hope Tulsa gets awarded the trials and that they schedule them on any weekend OTHER that Labor Day!

This is what happens when things that should be scheduled a year in advance are put off until it is too late to even plan them properly.  This is something that could be resolved with a 15min teleconference.  PAMPA and the AMA should be ashamed.

I have always been curious why we don't schedule the team selections in conjunction with some of our larger contests?  I am sure there is a good reason other than the different scoring systems which could be addressed.

ken

Just wanted to point out PAMPA has no involvement with the FAI Team Selection program at all.  As far as the date it has historically been Labor Day weekend (other than the last two) in part for the Junior competitors to attend around their school schedule.  Until the last few years most schools started after Labor Day.  And yes it gives working folks a travel day home.

Dave

[Mike Ferguson]

   It's quite a show, if none of their oxygen bottles run out.

    Brett

I think Keith Richards stopped needing oxygen somewhere around 1983.

[Doug Moon]

My opinion carries even less weight but those attending the team trials will have to travel the same 1500 miles regardless of when it is held.  The convenience of the 3 day weekend is nice but the tradition of the Dallas Labor Day contest goes way, way back.  It was already a "tradition" when I first flew stunt there as a Senior in 1963 when it still had the "Southwesterns" title.  At least three clubs have maintained that tradition over the years.  The weather in Tulsa is not all that different from Dallas.  We have decent, even preferable, flying weather well into November.

My reasons have a bit of a personal element.  I can't travel for family reasons so the two Dallas contests, at least for now, are my season.   Still, I hope Tulsa gets awarded the trials and that they schedule them on any weekend OTHER that Labor Day!

This is what happens when things that should be scheduled a year in advance are put off until it is too late to even plan them properly.  This is something that could be resolved with a 15min teleconference.  PAMPA and the AMA should be ashamed.

I have always been curious why we don't schedule the team selections in conjunction with some of our larger contests?  I am sure there is a good reason other than the different scoring systems which could be addressed.

ken

Scheduling the TT with other contests has been talked about for ever....  The TT is run as a traditional FAI F2B event per the rules that govern how we select out team.  Which I feel severely hamstrings the selection of the team. Having to run the event as an FAI event is quite different in every way from a traditional AMA event. 


I feel the city that gets the TT, at this time it looks to be Tulsa, should do what is best for their contest and get the most entrants. Having a 3 day weekend is a really good thing and would allow more to make the trek if they are so inclined. Yes it would run when the Dallas contest runs but that's the same way it has been forever until the last couple of times.


 

[Ken Culbertson]

Just wanted to point out PAMPA has no involvement with the FAI Team Selection program at all.  As far as the date it has historically been Labor Day weekend (other than the last two) in part for the Junior competitors to attend around their school schedule.  Until the last few years most schools started after Labor Day.  And yes it gives working folks a travel day home.

Dave

I stand corrected.  I had always assumed that the AMA delegated that function to PAMPA even though it remained an AMA thing. 

Ken

[Bob Reeves]

Thank you Doug, appreciate your input. As you are aware Dallas and Tulsa have a special friendship due to our proximity and sharing many good contests/get togethers over the years. For all the reasons already stated I feel the TT should be on a 3 day weekend and would hate it if it would create any animosity between the two clubs.

[Ken Culbertson]

Scheduling the TT with other contests has been talked about for ever....  The TT is run as a traditional FAI F2B event per the rules that govern how we select out team.  Which I feel severely hamstrings the selection of the team. Having to run the event as an FAI event is quite different in every way from a traditional AMA event. 


I feel the city that gets the TT, at this time it looks to be Tulsa, should do what is best for their contest and get the most entrants. Having a 3 day weekend is a really good thing and would allow more to make the trek if they are so inclined. Yes it would run when the Dallas contest runs but that's the same way it has been forever until the last couple of times.

I feel I need to clarify a bit because it appears that I may be giving the impression that I only care about our local contest getting stomped on.  Sure I care and wish it could be otherwise but selecting a good team is far more important.  My problem is more the system we have to work with.  It is frustrating to me to be out of the sport for 30+ years and come back to the same arguments and same problems we were having back then.  To this day I have not been able to understand why the team selection has not been part of the prior year's nationals.  I know that there are a thousand technical reasons but all of them could be addressed if the goal was to solve them, not just argue about them.

Ken

[Ken Culbertson]

For all the reasons already stated I feel the TT should be on a 3 day weekend and would hate it if it would create any animosity between the two clubs.

Bob - PLEASE don't take my comments as anything negative towards Tulsa.  I remember the friendly revelry we had in the 70's and 80's as I flew a lot of free flight as well as stunt going back as far as the mid 60's.
 
Ken

[Trostle]

As has already been mentioned, the F2B Team Trials has historically been held over the Labor Day weekend, although maybe not the last several times.  Undoubtedly, there are always some local/regional contests that are always held on that same weekend so that competitors in the past have had to choose to participate in one or the other.  Here, we have people in the Tulsa area stepping up to hold the Team Trials and unfortunately conflicts with the Dallas contest.  The only difference here, as in the past, is that Dallas/Tulsa are in proximity to each other.  Those who might want to participate in the Team Trials will still have to make the same decision regardless of their proximity of the two areas.

In a more perfect world, there would be alternative sites and alternative dates being proposed to hold the event, then the FAI F2B Team Selection Committee (as appointed by the AMA) would determine, sometimes by a poll of participants, the location/date based on the proposals submitted.

Some time ago (like a long time ago), polls or questionnaires were conducted by PAMPA among those participating in the Nationals and the Team Trials to determine the desirability to combine the Team Trials with the Nationals, either by selecting the team based on the results of the Nationals or holding a separate Team Trials event before or after the Nationals.  The results from those questionnaires were overwhelmingly against selecting the Team in any format in conjunction with the Nationals.

One of the reasons against selecting the F2B team based on the Nationals results is that the F2B scoring of maneuvers is different and might result with team members who are not as proficient as others in performing the high K factor maneuvers of the F2B scoring system.  (I am not saying that this is a valid or invalid perspective , but that was an argument against doing so.)

In the past, it has also been suggested that we run the Nats stunt event using F2B rules at least for the years of team selection (which would generally mean the year before the World Championships.  This was also overwhelmingly rejected by those who responded to those questionnaires.

Do not misunderstand what I am saying.  I am not advocating one system/idea over any other, other than it would certainly relieve one set of organizers the responsibility to conduct a separate event, though there would be increased responsibility to the Nats organizers if it was decided to hold the team selection process in whatever format in conjunction with the Nats.

There are other issues with holding the Team Trials with the Nats in some format that I will not get into here.

One thing that should be pointed out that the FAI Team Selection Committee is responsible to set up the date, location and judges for the Team Trials based on information provided to the committed by organizers and participants.  The options to be considered by the committee are somewhat limited when there is only one proposal for the location.   I think our stunt community should be thankful that at least there is one group stepping up to host the event this year.

Keith

[Bob Reeves]

Bob - PLEASE don't take my comments as anything negative towards Tulsa.  I remember the friendly revelry we had in the 70's and 80's as I flew a lot of free flight as well as stunt going back as far as the mid 60's.
 
Ken

I didn't, so far everything's good.

I may be talking out my a$$ as my opinions are only formed by what I have heard. The TT with it's requirements are a whole different ball game than a US stunt contest or even the NATS and rightfully so. We need to prepare our guys for what they will be facing when they compete at the worlds and introduce those that have never been to a worlds to the FAI way of doing things. I fully understand why it is and should remain an event in itself. Because it is a whole different ball game is it really conflicting with a local contest?

[Dave_Trible]

Another thing that came to mind- a reason for the holiday weekend was to allow a backup day allowing for a rain out or blow out.  We almost went for that last time but voted to proceed.  If it had poured rain all day we would have had to fly the finals on Monday,  a regular work/school day.

Dave

[Ken Culbertson]

As has already been mentioned, the F2B Team Trials has historically been held over the Labor Day weekend, although maybe not the last several times.  Undoubtedly, there are always some local/regional contests that are always held on that same weekend so that competitors in the past have had to choose to participate in one or the other.  Here, we have people in the Tulsa area stepping up to hold the Team Trials and unfortunately conflicts with the Dallas contest.  The only difference here, as in the past, is that Dallas/Tulsa are in proximity to each other.  Those who might want to participate in the Team Trials will still have to make the same decision regardless of their proximity of the two areas.

In a more perfect world, there would be alternative sites and alternative dates being proposed to hold the event, then the FAI F2B Team Selection Committee (as appointed by the AMA) would determine, sometimes by a poll of participants, the location/date based on the proposals submitted.

Some time ago (like a long time ago), polls or questionnaires were conducted by PAMPA among those participating in the Nationals and the Team Trials to determine the desirability to combine the Team Trials with the Nationals, either by selecting the team based on the results of the Nationals or holding a separate Team Trials event before or after the Nationals.  The results from those questionnaires were overwhelmingly against selecting the Team in any format in conjunction with the Nationals.

One of the reasons against selecting the F2B team based on the Nationals results is that the F2B scoring of maneuvers is different and might result with team members who are not as proficient as others in performing the high K factor maneuvers of the F2B scoring system.  (I am not saying that this is a valid or invalid perspective , but that was an argument against doing so.)

In the past, it has also been suggested that we run the Nats stunt event using F2B rules at least for the years of team selection (which would generally mean the year before the World Championships.  This was also overwhelmingly rejected by those who responded to those questionnaires.

Do not misunderstand what I am saying.  I am not advocating one system/idea over any other, other than it would certainly relieve one set of organizers the responsibility to conduct a separate event, though there would be increased responsibility to the Nats organizers if it was decided to hold the team selection process in whatever format in conjunction with the Nats.

There are other issues with holding the Team Trials with the Nats in some format that I will not get into here.

One thing that should be pointed out that the FAI Team Selection Committee is responsible to set up the date, location and judges for the Team Trials based on information provided to the committed by organizers and participants.  The options to be considered by the committee are somewhat limited when there is only one proposal for the location.   I think our stunt community should be thankful that at least there is one group stepping up to host the event this year.

Keith

Ok - I am a convert.  Your arguments are persuasive.  Especially the rain day that Dave pointed out.  Rain in September?  We should be so lucky!
I still think the trials should be in conjunction with another large event so that resources can be shared and attendance increased but if that has been floated and shot down then down it stays.

Ken

[Doug Moon]

With the participation levels what they are now compared to 25 years ago it would be a good idea to revisit selecting the team with the nats.  I have often thought it would be an option if somehow an AMA score could be converted from 10-40 to 0-10 with .1 increments then the K factor applied to that number.  Anyone who wants a chance for the team would declare at entry they were going for the team. Of course this is not posted until the event is over.

Just a thought....

[Trostle]

With the participation levels what they are now compared to 25 years ago  ----  (clip)
Just a thought....

I doubt if the participation numbers are that much different now than "25 years ago".    I do not think there were ever more than 25 that participated in the team trials in the 70's, 80's, 90's.  I could go back and check but the numbers were more in the range of 18 to 22.  Yes, over the last several cycles, the numbers are down, yet more in the range of 12 to 18.  Not that much difference that would dictate a change in the format.

A survey of "participants" would have to be very carefully conducted.  If you ask all those who might think about going to the Nats or even the entire CLPA community if they would like to have the Team Trials at the Nats in some format, the response very likely would be that most would be in favor on the slight chance that one who would not otherwise bother to attend another event at another venue/date might consider that "Hey, I could go to the Nats and be trying out out for the team" knowing full well that there is no or little chance of getting to that level.  A decision to somehow combine the Team Trials and the Nats based on a general survey or even just Nats participants would not be fair to those who dedicate considerable time and resources to participate in the Team Trials working to seriously make the team.

That is why surveys conducted by the FAI Team Selection Committee are held among Team Trials participants regarding location, date (assuming there are alternative bids) and judges rather than the CLPA community at large.

Keith

[Ken Culbertson]

With the participation levels what they are now compared to 25 years ago it would be a good idea to revisit selecting the team with the nats.  I have often thought it would be an option if somehow an AMA score could be converted from 10-40 to 0-10 with .1 increments then the K factor applied to that number.  Anyone who wants a chance for the team would declare at entry they were going for the team. Of course this is not posted until the event is over.

Just a thought....

And a very good thought.

I especially like the part about converting AMA scores to quasi F2B scores thus eliminating having to fly a whole bunch of extra rounds.   I don't see a downside.  There would be lots of complications and nasty side issues like the BOM but they can all be worked out.  Keith makes a very good point, regardless of how the CLPA community feels about this it should only be those willing to make the commitment that should have the vote which ironically leaves me out!

Ken

[frank williams]

My choice of the Columbus Day weekend for the last two years was primarily for the reason talked about here.  Although its somewhat cooler the first of October than the first weekend of September, the conflict with the Dallas contest was a major factor in my choice.  Since I was needing people from the Dallas area to help with the contest, I wanted to avoid a conflict.  Houston and Tulsa are both about the same distance from Dallas, although Tulsa probably has a larger pool of helpers from the Midwest than I do on the coast, you might not have the same concern I did.

One issue that does fit in with the desire to have a combined (serial or simultaneou) Nat TT, is the issue of judges.  Compensation of judges for the Nats or TT are not what they should be.  In my opinion, AMA should compensate travel and lodging for all judges and officials fully.  Combining Nats and TT would get the judges to one place at one time.  Just a thought.

[Howard Rush]

You could have all the stunt contests in the country in the same place in the same week.  Get 'em over with so we can get on with our lives.

[john e. holliday]

So the TT is held on Labor Day weekend.  Really how many pilots would it involve from other areas that have a stunt meet that week end?   If you want to represent our great country and can qualify the TT's would be a choice,  otherwise you stay home and fly locally.

[Howard Rush]

I live way up in the NW corner of the country, so I travel farther than most folks to the team trials.  The thing I notice most about traveling on holidays is that folks don't work on the road on holidays, so there's not as much bother from construction sites. 

I priced hotels between here and Tulsa for Labor Day weekend and for three weeks later.  Price is about the same for Tulsa and Limon, CO for both weekends, but Twin Falls--one day out from my house-- is costlier on Tuesday either side of Labor Day than later in the month.

What I liked about the Texas team trials was that there were contests one week on either side, making for enjoyable expeditions: https://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/grand-tour-of-stunt-2015/msg422124/#msg422124 , https://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/cinderella-tour-2017/msg501027/#msg501027

[Dave_Trible]

I would not favor flying the Trials and Nats at the same time.  I sure does eliminate one 'MAJOR' on the schedule but also the events are flown enough different with different rules etc., that I don't think we should simply throw an "AMA Winner" at it and call it the team.  Also one might wish to use a different airplane for FAI.  It's hard to adjust to something else that fast even if flown in back-to -back weeks.

Dave