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General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: Chris_Rud on January 21, 2019, 10:06:32 AM

Title: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: Chris_Rud on January 21, 2019, 10:06:32 AM
Anyone know where and when? Trying to get it on the calendar.
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: Dave_Trible on January 21, 2019, 10:13:43 AM
Chris right now Tulsa, OK has put their bid in and filed all the paperwork.  They are waiting for gears to turn at AMA for final go ahead.  I’m not sure if any dates have been proposed yet but I’d think something close to Labor Day.
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: afml on February 24, 2019, 08:08:18 PM
Any updates on information for the 2019 Team Trials??
Location bid(s)/ acceptance??
Dates???
Many thanks in advance & "Tight Lines!"  H^^
Wes
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: Dave_Trible on February 25, 2019, 06:13:01 AM
Wes I called to pester Colleen about it a couple weeks ago.  She'd been busy with getting the new website going and hadn't really addressed the Trials stuff yet.  Tulsa is the standing bid right now unless anything new came since.  Dates wouldn't be known until the location is confirmed.  Typically it's Labor Day weekend but doesn't have to be.  They have their big fall contest very close to that date and don't know their thoughts on that.  The last two were in October but were also further south in better Oct. weather.  We are still waiting.....

Dave
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: Tim Wescott on February 25, 2019, 10:32:28 AM
Wow.  About $250 less in gas and hotel rooms for me to go there as opposed to the Nats, and since I'm currently flying a hand-me-down I'd be more eligible!
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: Joseph Patterson on February 25, 2019, 10:39:38 AM
        I believe the TT's have been the second weekend in Oct. the last two cycles.
            Doug
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: BillLee on February 25, 2019, 01:15:56 PM
        I believe the TT's have been the second weekend in Oct. the last two cycles.
            Doug
That's because the best weather in Texas is (usually) in October. Maybe not true in Yankee country.  :)
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: Tim Wescott on February 25, 2019, 01:31:17 PM
That's because the best weather in Texas is (usually) in October. Maybe not true in Yankee country.  :)

Prime contest season out here (the Pacific Northwest) is late May through mid September or so.  We start up in April and run through October, but the first & last contests of the year are chancy.
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: BillLee on February 25, 2019, 04:28:16 PM
Prime contest season out here (the Pacific Northwest) is late May through mid September or so.  We start up in April and run through October, but the first & last contests of the year are chancy.

Then why didn't you make an offer to host the Team Selection?
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: Paul Walker on February 25, 2019, 05:24:10 PM
Then why didn't you make an offer to host the Team Selection?

In the early '90's, a group from Oregon put forth a very detailed bid, with lots of local support and backing, and was immediately dismissed by AMA. Was not even put forth for a vote.
 The group who put it together are still around, and running contests, just not a TT's. Since then  no bids from the NW.
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: BillLee on February 25, 2019, 07:35:38 PM
In the early '90's, a group from Oregon put forth a very detailed bid, with lots of local support and backing, and was immediately dismissed by AMA. Was not even put forth for a vote.
 The group who put it together are still around, and running contests, just not a TT's. Since then  no bids from the NW.
Paul, I cannot see how a bid was "immediately dismissed by AMA" if the F2B Team Selection Committee followed the rules. Yes, AMA (Colleen) is a conduit for bid requests and responses, but it is the Team Selection Committee that has the say, not AMA. All bids are presented to the TSC and they then pick one if several are available. (Of course, that's not usually the case, usually we cry for someone to bid!)

The TSC is supposed to be made up of a representative from each AMA District, elected by the "participants" in that District. So it's not the bureaucracy in Muncie. :-)

(For anybody who is interested, this is all spelled out in AMA's "Blue Book" which can be seen at http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/2014_BLUE_BOOKFEB14.pdf )
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: Paul Walker on February 25, 2019, 07:49:35 PM
Paul, I cannot see how a bid was "immediately dismissed by AMA" if the F2B Team Selection Committee followed the rules.

BINGO!! There was something funny going on back then. The Oregon group worked closely with AMA regarding the requirements for a TT 's bid, and what they needed to do to have a successful bid. I don't know for a fact where the "issue" occurred, but it did. I was/am on the TSC and was VERY surprised to not see it on the ballot.

Yes, AMA (Colleen) is a conduit for bid requests and responses, but it is the Team Selection Committee that has the say, not AMA. All bids are presented to the TSC and they then pick one if several are available. (Of course, that's not usually the case, usually we cry for someone to bid!)

The TSC is supposed to be made up of a representative from each AMA District, elected by the "participants" in that District. So it's not the bureaucracy in Muncie. :-)

Again, I can't say WHERE the issue occurred.

(For anybody who is interested, this is all spelled out in AMA's "Blue Book" which can be seen at http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/2014_BLUE_BOOKFEB14.pdf )
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: Bob Reeves on March 03, 2019, 07:13:08 AM
Tulsa's best weather is September, we hold our big stunt contest the last full weekend in September and so far have had very few not so perfect stunt weather weekends. We are thinking around the first of September, hot summer is starting to turn into fall and the grass circles are in the best condition.

Couple reasons we are thinking Tulsa is the perfect location for the TT. It is centrally located, motels are inexpensive and 5 miles of light traffic from the field. Tulsa International airport is 20 minutes away. We have been told we have three of the best grass circles in the country. We don't see not having a paved circle as a negative as you will likely be flying on a grass field at the worlds. We have an air conditioned club house electric, water and WiFi. Top that off with a bunch of guys and a land owner that will make every effort to make sure you have a pleasant experience while here.

Oh Ya, almost forgot the best pull test machines in the world :)
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: Brett Buck on March 03, 2019, 07:54:45 AM
Tulsa International airport is 20 minutes away. We have been told we have three of the best grass circles in the country. We don't see not having a paved circle as a negative as you will likely be flying on a grass field at the worlds.

    Grass circles, well-prepared, are a lot better than pavement. Not nearly as hot/miserable, and, as you say, you aren't likely to be getting better at a WC.

      Brett
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: BillLee on March 03, 2019, 09:07:11 AM
    Grass circles, well-prepared, are a lot better than pavement. Not nearly as hot/miserable, and, as you say, you aren't likely to be getting better at a WC.

      Brett

If you REALLY want to prepare for the WCs, you need to find a cow pasture somewhere and fly there!  >:D
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: Bob Reeves on March 03, 2019, 09:20:37 AM
If you REALLY want to prepare for the WCs, you need to find a cow pasture somewhere and fly there!  >:D

We have that also, couple acres around the circles get mowed with a tractor and 7 foot flail mower, prairie grass is 2 to 3 inches tall after it's mowed  ;D
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: john e. holliday on March 03, 2019, 09:48:26 AM
I remember before the three classes of F2 competition were separated for team trials it used to be over Labor Day week end so the kid(Juniors) would not lose too many days of school. D>K
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: Trostle on March 03, 2019, 11:21:39 AM
If you REALLY want to prepare for the WCs, you need to find a cow pasture somewhere and fly there!  >:D

To equivocate the stunt flying circles at the World Championships in Poland four years ago to a cow pasture is an embarrassment to the cow pastures of the world.

Keith
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: Brett Buck on March 03, 2019, 11:36:46 AM
If you REALLY want to prepare for the WCs, you need to find a cow pasture somewhere and fly there!  >:D

   Alternately, we could just hold the WC in Tulsa!   Oklahoma is far preferable to Europe, from almost any perspective.

    Brett

p.s. might even see the ghost of Bob "The King" Wills:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=29&v=i1YtImqPW8c
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: Dan McEntee on March 03, 2019, 12:53:42 PM
  It would be cool beans to see a WC in Tulsa! I think of it as a "big little town."  The most time I have spent there was a long weekend riding vintage dirt bikes in the ISDT Reunion Ride at Zinc Ranch. Got me my gold medal their in my class. The local people and club were very nice and accommodating. Hotels were nice. I think there is a college nearby that would maybe fill the dorm room type accommodations that I think is something they look for in a W/C bid. It was when the sailplane club was a member of got the first F3-E team trials bid and the 1988 W/C event at Parks College in Cahokia, IL. You just need the site for the racing and speed, and that would mean pavement, correct?
    Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: BillLee on March 03, 2019, 07:50:28 PM
   Alternately, we could just hold the WC in Tulsa!   Oklahoma is far preferable to Europe, from almost any perspective.

    Brett

p.s. might even see the ghost of Bob "The King" Wills:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=29&v=i1YtImqPW8c

Hey! Great! Bob could add three paved circles as well as erecting nets/fences around all them AND around the grass circles for F2B. Then we could use the cow pasture next door for the F2D guys, but remember, they have to have a safety net as well......

Unfortunately, reality isn't close to imagination.  HB~> HB~> HB~>
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: Bob Reeves on March 04, 2019, 07:11:25 AM
Hold on a minute... We are more than prepared for the T-Trials but the WC is a whole different ball game. Maybe if some millionaire donated a couple hundred thousand to the Tulsa Gluedobbers  ;D 
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: Howard Rush on March 04, 2019, 09:09:09 AM
Oklahoma is far preferable to Europe, from almost any perspective.

A place where even squares can have a ball.
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: Brett Buck on March 04, 2019, 09:10:34 AM
Hold on a minute... We are more than prepared for the T-Trials but the WC is a whole different ball game. Maybe if some millionaire donated a couple hundred thousand to the Tulsa Gluedobbers  ;D

  We are notably short of millionaires in this hobby. That is no coincidence.   
 
   And it actually *isn't* all that much more, given the current standards. I think you just need to find an abandoned shopping mall with a big parking lot for the support events. Let them fly in the equivalent of a "potato field" a few times.

   There are plenty of places for a WC, its much easier than a NATs as far as facilities goes. No one does it because it's not worth doing, not because it's all that hard to come up with a site. There's a suitable site 3 miles from my house, there are places you could hold a WC simultaneously with a NATs less than 20 miles from here, complete with postcard -quality scenic views and everyone getting their own personal practice circle. Muncie is an overkill site for a WC, same with a lot of other places (like the site they have Triple Tree). Brodak's site would probably suffice.

   Brett

     
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: Shawn Lenci on March 04, 2019, 06:56:09 PM
A place where even squares can have a ball.

Nice Howard!  A little tip to the Man...Mr. Haggard.

Shawn
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: Joseph Daly on April 22, 2019, 08:18:11 AM
Has a place and date been set? just trying to figure out my vacation plans.

Thanks
Joe
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: Bob Reeves on April 22, 2019, 09:57:11 AM
Still waiting to hear from the AMA, have had a couple guys from the Gluedobbers call and send emails but so far no response. Tulsa gang is ready to get the ball rolling but no reason to do allot of work and planning until we know for sure one way or the other.
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: BillLee on April 22, 2019, 02:19:49 PM
Still waiting to hear from the AMA, have had a couple guys from the Gluedobbers call and send emails but so far no response. Tulsa gang is ready to get the ball rolling but no reason to do allot of work and planning until we know for sure one way or the other.

Bob, can you tell us what dates you proposed for the F2B Team Trials?  Since yours was apparently the only bid, that would allow folks to start making plans even if you haven't heard back from AMA.

BTW, it's really the F2B Team Selection Committee that is "in charge", AMA is basically just a communication conduit. You might want to contact the F2B TSC Chairman. According to the AMA web site, that is Randy Smith randyaero@msn.com .

Regards,

Bill

Control Line Aerobatics (F2B) Team Selection Committee
I.
II. Winfred Urtnowski, 93 Elliott Pl., Rutherford, NJ 07070-1912 windyu@aol.com
III. Mike Palko, 420 Brookside Dr., Perkasie, PA 18944 mpalko494@msn.com
IV. Richard Houser, 1314 S. Oakland St., Arlington, VA 22204-4233 yevch8v@verizon.net
V. James Smith, 980 Winnbrook Dr., Dacula, GA 30019 randyaero@msn.com
VI. Christopher Rud, 306 N Park Ave., Aurora, IL 60506 me@chrisrud.com
VII. Robert McDonald, 28746 Westfield St., Livonia, MI 48150-3135 bobsp47@sbcglobal.net
VIII. Frank McMillan, 12106 Gunter Grv., San Antonio, TX 78231-2412 msmfdmc@aol.com
IX. James Lee, 827 S.E. 43rd. St., Topeka, KS 66609-1619 jlee9@cox.net
X. David Fitzgerald, 1150 Monticello Rd., Napa, CA 94558-2031 davidlfitzgerald@sbcglobal.net
XI. Paul Walker, 25900 127th Ave. S.E., Kent, WA 98031-7933 go_stunt@comcast.net


https://www.modelaircraft.org/world-championships/team/team-selection-committees
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: Paul Walker on April 22, 2019, 02:53:38 PM
So Randy, what's happening?
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: Bob Reeves on April 23, 2019, 03:57:48 AM
Bob, can you tell us what dates you proposed for the F2B Team Trials?  Since yours was apparently the only bid, that would allow folks to start making plans even if you haven't heard back from AMA.

Actual dates haven't been discussed, as we were waiting to hear back from Colleen, Tim Tipton has stepped up to be the CD with help as needed from the other club members, guess I'm like Colleen just a communication conduit. Labor Day weekend is the first Sunday in September, last Saturday in August. I don't see any issues with holding the TT that weekend but it really isn't my decision to make.
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: Scott Richlen on April 23, 2019, 07:01:32 PM
You guys ought to figure out how to hold the Team Trials on the National Mall in Washington, D.C., say, in front of the National Air & Space Museum.  Great location and plenty of sight-seeing for significant others.  You could invite all of the FAA bureaucrats to see just how dangerous model airplanes are and finally make the point that these are not drones.  They might even take notice that while we'd be flying in proximity to the National Airport landing pattern, none of the airliners would be in any kind of jeopardy.

By the way, once they see the PR potential, this might even get the AMA to admit that yes indeed, control line actually exists..... ;D
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: frank williams on April 23, 2019, 07:49:33 PM
Scott that's a great idea!  Not so much to rub the FAA nose in it, but just as a national promotional for model aviation.
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: BillLee on April 23, 2019, 09:08:24 PM
So Randy, what's happening?

Has anybody heard anything from Randy Smith?
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: Scott Richlen on April 24, 2019, 05:56:43 AM
Here's the view looking east and west of where you would be flying.  Not a bad view, eh?
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: RandySmith on April 24, 2019, 09:54:49 AM
So Randy, what's happening?

I am waiting on AMA to send me the  bids for the  TTs , so far it seems they  are  real busy !

Randy
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: RandySmith on April 24, 2019, 09:56:21 AM
Has anybody heard anything from Randy Smith?

Yes  I have  not got anything from AMA on the bids  So I asked the Tulsa guys to send it to me directly, and got it yesterday

Randy
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: Trostle on April 24, 2019, 10:27:59 AM
You guys ought to figure out how to hold the Team Trials on the National Mall in Washington, D.C., say, in front of the National Air & Space Museum.  Great location and plenty of sight-seeing for significant others.  You could invite all of the FAA bureaucrats to see just how dangerous model airplanes are and finally make the point that these are not drones.  They might even take notice that while we'd be flying in proximity to the National Airport landing pattern, none of the airliners would be in any kind of jeopardy.

By the way, once they see the PR potential, this might even get the AMA to admit that yes indeed, control line actually exists..... ;D

Team Trials at the Mall would be a bit unrealistic.  However, in years past, CL contests were held at Bolling AFB just across the river from where the Mall is.  I do not know if there are still runways there or not, but it was a great facility for CL.

Keith
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: Dave_Trible on April 24, 2019, 12:35:55 PM
You guys ought to figure out how to hold the Team Trials on the National Mall in Washington, D.C., say, in front of the National Air & Space Museum.  Great location and plenty of sight-seeing for significant others.  You could invite all of the FAA bureaucrats to see just how dangerous model airplanes are and finally make the point that these are not drones.  They might even take notice that while we'd be flying in proximity to the National Airport landing pattern, none of the airliners would be in any kind of jeopardy.

By the way, once they see the PR potential, this might even get the AMA to admit that yes indeed, control line actually exists..... ;D
You’d get busted for flying a drone in a no-fly zone.

Dave
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: Russell Honea on April 25, 2019, 07:03:04 AM
Has a place and date been set? just trying to figure out my vacation plans.

Thanks
Joe

Hey Joe,
If Tulsa were to be given the opportunity to host the TT, we would be looking at Labor Day Weekend, that would give everyone, especially the Juniors an extra day for travel.

Russell
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: Carl Cisneros on April 25, 2019, 12:06:26 PM
Scott

I thought Dick lived in WV
not Arlington

Carl
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: Scott Richlen on April 25, 2019, 01:48:54 PM
Quote
Team Trials at the Mall would be a bit unrealistic.  However, in years past, CL contests were held at Bolling AFB just across the river from where the Mall is.  I do not know if there are still runways there or not, but it was a great facility for CL.

Bolling is mostly office buildings now.  No place to fly at all.

Actually, Team Trials at the Mall is only unrealistic as long as no one pursues it.  There are all kinds of things held on the Mall.  It is just that no one at the Air & Space Museum can see the connection between model airplane flying and full-size aviation.  We are a nation that has been taught to look at its shoes, not up.

Quote
I thought Dick lived in WV not Arlington

Dick lives in Stephens City VA.  He has not been deported to WVa.  You are thinking of John L.  We deported him to the hills and stills of WVa near Harpers Ferry.... ;D
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: Carl Cisneros on April 25, 2019, 03:37:29 PM
Scott

thats right, got it backwards.

was just a wondering as the listing for each district shows Dicks address as Arlington

Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: Scott Richlen on April 26, 2019, 06:57:45 AM
Quote
was just a wondering as the listing for each district shows Dicks address as Arlington

Yup, they need to update it.
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: Peter in Fairfax, VA on April 26, 2019, 08:27:37 AM
The National Mall does host a Kite Festival at least once a year.  There are some folks who classify CL aircraft as kites, as they are tethered.

I can recall Bolling AFB and Anacostia Naval Air Station next door well, as I won a CL combat contest there back in the day on a technicality (opponent's streamer did not unfurl.)  Opponent was Howard Rush, who offered an unofficial rematch, on the spot.  I regret calling it a day and not flying that rematch, as it would have been good training at the time.  Had I been thinking well, might have requested more of a demo/training match, as my typical practice flying did not include multiple planes.

Today I am training to fly stunt.  The person who has been coaching me is Scott, also on this thread.  Our field is hidden away, 5 acres among 800 down a 1/2 mile driveway, 20 miles or so from the National Mall.
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: BillLee on April 28, 2019, 06:57:29 PM
Hey Joe,
If Tulsa were to be given the opportunity to host the TT, we would be looking at Labor Day Weekend, that would give everyone, especially the Juniors an extra day for travel.

Russell
(Not sure where it went, I posted this once before.)

Keep in mind that Dallas has a traditional contest on Labor Day weekend, and having the Team trial that close by would be quite disruptive. It's one thing to be in Muncie on Labor Day, quite another to be in some major contest's backyard.

Then two weeks later, September 14-15 the DMAA will be hosting the F2C Team Trials.

I think that Tulsa would be best served for support from outside by choosing any of the other three weekends in September, or even perhaps early October if the traditional Tulsa "last weekend of September" isn't chosen.

Regards,

Bill Lee
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: Howard Rush on April 28, 2019, 10:28:19 PM
Hold on. Nobody should set a date for anything until the Stones tour is rescheduled.
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: Brett Buck on April 28, 2019, 11:26:05 PM
Hold on. Nobody should set a date for anything until the Stones tour is rescheduled.

   It's quite a show, if none of their oxygen bottles run out.

    Brett
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: Bob Reeves on April 29, 2019, 03:40:58 AM
(Not sure where it went, I posted this once before.)

Keep in mind that Dallas has a traditional contest on Labor Day weekend, and having the Team trial that close by would be quite disruptive. It's one thing to be in Muncie on Labor Day, quite another to be in some major contest's backyard.

Then two weeks later, September 14-15 the DMAA will be hosting the F2C Team Trials.

I think that Tulsa would be best served for support from outside by choosing any of the other three weekends in September, or even perhaps early October if the traditional Tulsa "last weekend of September" isn't chosen.

Regards,

Bill Lee

Not that my opinion caries any weight but you are asking Tulsa to trade the convince of those traveling maybe 1500 miles to compete in the team trials because a few local guys might attend the TT rather than go to a Dallas contest. We need to hear from some of those that would be effected as I no longer fly competitively.
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: Will Hinton on April 29, 2019, 08:48:45 AM
   It's quite a show, if none of their oxygen bottles run out.

    Brett

Brett, THAT is likely your best ever comment!!!  Loved it! LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: Ken Culbertson on April 29, 2019, 11:00:52 AM
Not that my opinion caries any weight but you are asking Tulsa to trade the convince of those traveling maybe 1500 miles to compete in the team trials because a few local guys might attend the TT rather than go to a Dallas contest. We need to hear from some of those that would be effected as I no longer fly competitively.
My opinion carries even less weight but those attending the team trials will have to travel the same 1500 miles regardless of when it is held.  The convenience of the 3 day weekend is nice but the tradition of the Dallas Labor Day contest goes way, way back.  It was already a "tradition" when I first flew stunt there as a Senior in 1963 when it still had the "Southwesterns" title.  At least three clubs have maintained that tradition over the years.  The weather in Tulsa is not all that different from Dallas.  We have decent, even preferable, flying weather well into November.

My reasons have a bit of a personal element.  I can't travel for family reasons so the two Dallas contests, at least for now, are my season.   Still, I hope Tulsa gets awarded the trials and that they schedule them on any weekend OTHER that Labor Day!

This is what happens when things that should be scheduled a year in advance are put off until it is too late to even plan them properly.  This is something that could be resolved with a 15min teleconference.  PAMPA and the AMA should be ashamed.

I have always been curious why we don't schedule the team selections in conjunction with some of our larger contests?  I am sure there is a good reason other than the different scoring systems which could be addressed.

ken

Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: Dave_Trible on April 29, 2019, 11:43:56 AM
My opinion carries even less weight but those attending the team trials will have to travel the same 1500 miles regardless of when it is held.  The convenience of the 3 day weekend is nice but the tradition of the Dallas Labor Day contest goes way, way back.  It was already a "tradition" when I first flew stunt there as a Senior in 1963 when it still had the "Southwesterns" title.  At least three clubs have maintained that tradition over the years.  The weather in Tulsa is not all that different from Dallas.  We have decent, even preferable, flying weather well into November.

My reasons have a bit of a personal element.  I can't travel for family reasons so the two Dallas contests, at least for now, are my season.   Still, I hope Tulsa gets awarded the trials and that they schedule them on any weekend OTHER that Labor Day!

This is what happens when things that should be scheduled a year in advance are put off until it is too late to even plan them properly.  This is something that could be resolved with a 15min teleconference.  PAMPA and the AMA should be ashamed.

I have always been curious why we don't schedule the team selections in conjunction with some of our larger contests?  I am sure there is a good reason other than the different scoring systems which could be addressed.

ken
Just wanted to point out PAMPA has no involvement with the FAI Team Selection program at all.  As far as the date it has historically been Labor Day weekend (other than the last two) in part for the Junior competitors to attend around their school schedule.  Until the last few years most schools started after Labor Day.  And yes it gives working folks a travel day home.

Dave
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: Mike Ferguson on April 29, 2019, 01:53:48 PM
   It's quite a show, if none of their oxygen bottles run out.

    Brett

I think Keith Richards stopped needing oxygen somewhere around 1983.
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: Doug Moon on April 29, 2019, 01:57:18 PM
My opinion carries even less weight but those attending the team trials will have to travel the same 1500 miles regardless of when it is held.  The convenience of the 3 day weekend is nice but the tradition of the Dallas Labor Day contest goes way, way back.  It was already a "tradition" when I first flew stunt there as a Senior in 1963 when it still had the "Southwesterns" title.  At least three clubs have maintained that tradition over the years.  The weather in Tulsa is not all that different from Dallas.  We have decent, even preferable, flying weather well into November.

My reasons have a bit of a personal element.  I can't travel for family reasons so the two Dallas contests, at least for now, are my season.   Still, I hope Tulsa gets awarded the trials and that they schedule them on any weekend OTHER that Labor Day!

This is what happens when things that should be scheduled a year in advance are put off until it is too late to even plan them properly.  This is something that could be resolved with a 15min teleconference.  PAMPA and the AMA should be ashamed.

I have always been curious why we don't schedule the team selections in conjunction with some of our larger contests?  I am sure there is a good reason other than the different scoring systems which could be addressed.

ken

Scheduling the TT with other contests has been talked about for ever....  The TT is run as a traditional FAI F2B event per the rules that govern how we select out team.  Which I feel severely hamstrings the selection of the team. Having to run the event as an FAI event is quite different in every way from a traditional AMA event. 


I feel the city that gets the TT, at this time it looks to be Tulsa, should do what is best for their contest and get the most entrants. Having a 3 day weekend is a really good thing and would allow more to make the trek if they are so inclined. Yes it would run when the Dallas contest runs but that's the same way it has been forever until the last couple of times.


 
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: Ken Culbertson on April 29, 2019, 02:25:09 PM
Just wanted to point out PAMPA has no involvement with the FAI Team Selection program at all.  As far as the date it has historically been Labor Day weekend (other than the last two) in part for the Junior competitors to attend around their school schedule.  Until the last few years most schools started after Labor Day.  And yes it gives working folks a travel day home.

Dave
I stand corrected.  I had always assumed that the AMA delegated that function to PAMPA even though it remained an AMA thing. 

Ken
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: Bob Reeves on April 29, 2019, 02:29:21 PM
Thank you Doug, appreciate your input. As you are aware Dallas and Tulsa have a special friendship due to our proximity and sharing many good contests/get togethers over the years. For all the reasons already stated I feel the TT should be on a 3 day weekend and would hate it if it would create any animosity between the two clubs.
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: Ken Culbertson on April 29, 2019, 02:58:20 PM
Scheduling the TT with other contests has been talked about for ever....  The TT is run as a traditional FAI F2B event per the rules that govern how we select out team.  Which I feel severely hamstrings the selection of the team. Having to run the event as an FAI event is quite different in every way from a traditional AMA event. 


I feel the city that gets the TT, at this time it looks to be Tulsa, should do what is best for their contest and get the most entrants. Having a 3 day weekend is a really good thing and would allow more to make the trek if they are so inclined. Yes it would run when the Dallas contest runs but that's the same way it has been forever until the last couple of times.
I feel I need to clarify a bit because it appears that I may be giving the impression that I only care about our local contest getting stomped on.  Sure I care and wish it could be otherwise but selecting a good team is far more important.  My problem is more the system we have to work with.  It is frustrating to me to be out of the sport for 30+ years and come back to the same arguments and same problems we were having back then.  To this day I have not been able to understand why the team selection has not been part of the prior year's nationals.  I know that there are a thousand technical reasons but all of them could be addressed if the goal was to solve them, not just argue about them.

Ken
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: Ken Culbertson on April 29, 2019, 03:04:39 PM
For all the reasons already stated I feel the TT should be on a 3 day weekend and would hate it if it would create any animosity between the two clubs.
Bob - PLEASE don't take my comments as anything negative towards Tulsa.  I remember the friendly revelry we had in the 70's and 80's as I flew a lot of free flight as well as stunt going back as far as the mid 60's.
 
Ken
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: Trostle on April 29, 2019, 04:32:23 PM
As has already been mentioned, the F2B Team Trials has historically been held over the Labor Day weekend, although maybe not the last several times.  Undoubtedly, there are always some local/regional contests that are always held on that same weekend so that competitors in the past have had to choose to participate in one or the other.  Here, we have people in the Tulsa area stepping up to hold the Team Trials and unfortunately conflicts with the Dallas contest.  The only difference here, as in the past, is that Dallas/Tulsa are in proximity to each other.  Those who might want to participate in the Team Trials will still have to make the same decision regardless of their proximity of the two areas.

In a more perfect world, there would be alternative sites and alternative dates being proposed to hold the event, then the FAI F2B Team Selection Committee (as appointed by the AMA) would determine, sometimes by a poll of participants, the location/date based on the proposals submitted.

Some time ago (like a long time ago), polls or questionnaires were conducted by PAMPA among those participating in the Nationals and the Team Trials to determine the desirability to combine the Team Trials with the Nationals, either by selecting the team based on the results of the Nationals or holding a separate Team Trials event before or after the Nationals.  The results from those questionnaires were overwhelmingly against selecting the Team in any format in conjunction with the Nationals.

One of the reasons against selecting the F2B team based on the Nationals results is that the F2B scoring of maneuvers is different and might result with team members who are not as proficient as others in performing the high K factor maneuvers of the F2B scoring system.  (I am not saying that this is a valid or invalid perspective , but that was an argument against doing so.)

In the past, it has also been suggested that we run the Nats stunt event using F2B rules at least for the years of team selection (which would generally mean the year before the World Championships.  This was also overwhelmingly rejected by those who responded to those questionnaires.

Do not misunderstand what I am saying.  I am not advocating one system/idea over any other, other than it would certainly relieve one set of organizers the responsibility to conduct a separate event, though there would be increased responsibility to the Nats organizers if it was decided to hold the team selection process in whatever format in conjunction with the Nats.

There are other issues with holding the Team Trials with the Nats in some format that I will not get into here.

One thing that should be pointed out that the FAI Team Selection Committee is responsible to set up the date, location and judges for the Team Trials based on information provided to the committed by organizers and participants.  The options to be considered by the committee are somewhat limited when there is only one proposal for the location.   I think our stunt community should be thankful that at least there is one group stepping up to host the event this year.

Keith
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: Bob Reeves on April 29, 2019, 05:51:43 PM
Bob - PLEASE don't take my comments as anything negative towards Tulsa.  I remember the friendly revelry we had in the 70's and 80's as I flew a lot of free flight as well as stunt going back as far as the mid 60's.
 
Ken

I didn't, so far everything's good.

I may be talking out my a$$ as my opinions are only formed by what I have heard. The TT with it's requirements are a whole different ball game than a US stunt contest or even the NATS and rightfully so. We need to prepare our guys for what they will be facing when they compete at the worlds and introduce those that have never been to a worlds to the FAI way of doing things. I fully understand why it is and should remain an event in itself. Because it is a whole different ball game is it really conflicting with a local contest?
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: Dave_Trible on April 29, 2019, 05:57:12 PM
Another thing that came to mind- a reason for the holiday weekend was to allow a backup day allowing for a rain out or blow out.  We almost went for that last time but voted to proceed.  If it had poured rain all day we would have had to fly the finals on Monday,  a regular work/school day.

Dave
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: Ken Culbertson on April 29, 2019, 06:15:26 PM
As has already been mentioned, the F2B Team Trials has historically been held over the Labor Day weekend, although maybe not the last several times.  Undoubtedly, there are always some local/regional contests that are always held on that same weekend so that competitors in the past have had to choose to participate in one or the other.  Here, we have people in the Tulsa area stepping up to hold the Team Trials and unfortunately conflicts with the Dallas contest.  The only difference here, as in the past, is that Dallas/Tulsa are in proximity to each other.  Those who might want to participate in the Team Trials will still have to make the same decision regardless of their proximity of the two areas.

In a more perfect world, there would be alternative sites and alternative dates being proposed to hold the event, then the FAI F2B Team Selection Committee (as appointed by the AMA) would determine, sometimes by a poll of participants, the location/date based on the proposals submitted.

Some time ago (like a long time ago), polls or questionnaires were conducted by PAMPA among those participating in the Nationals and the Team Trials to determine the desirability to combine the Team Trials with the Nationals, either by selecting the team based on the results of the Nationals or holding a separate Team Trials event before or after the Nationals.  The results from those questionnaires were overwhelmingly against selecting the Team in any format in conjunction with the Nationals.

One of the reasons against selecting the F2B team based on the Nationals results is that the F2B scoring of maneuvers is different and might result with team members who are not as proficient as others in performing the high K factor maneuvers of the F2B scoring system.  (I am not saying that this is a valid or invalid perspective , but that was an argument against doing so.)

In the past, it has also been suggested that we run the Nats stunt event using F2B rules at least for the years of team selection (which would generally mean the year before the World Championships.  This was also overwhelmingly rejected by those who responded to those questionnaires.

Do not misunderstand what I am saying.  I am not advocating one system/idea over any other, other than it would certainly relieve one set of organizers the responsibility to conduct a separate event, though there would be increased responsibility to the Nats organizers if it was decided to hold the team selection process in whatever format in conjunction with the Nats.

There are other issues with holding the Team Trials with the Nats in some format that I will not get into here.

One thing that should be pointed out that the FAI Team Selection Committee is responsible to set up the date, location and judges for the Team Trials based on information provided to the committed by organizers and participants.  The options to be considered by the committee are somewhat limited when there is only one proposal for the location.   I think our stunt community should be thankful that at least there is one group stepping up to host the event this year.

Keith

Ok - I am a convert.  Your arguments are persuasive.  Especially the rain day that Dave pointed out.  Rain in September?  We should be so lucky!
I still think the trials should be in conjunction with another large event so that resources can be shared and attendance increased but if that has been floated and shot down then down it stays.

Ken
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: Doug Moon on April 30, 2019, 04:13:16 PM
With the participation levels what they are now compared to 25 years ago it would be a good idea to revisit selecting the team with the nats.  I have often thought it would be an option if somehow an AMA score could be converted from 10-40 to 0-10 with .1 increments then the K factor applied to that number.  Anyone who wants a chance for the team would declare at entry they were going for the team. Of course this is not posted until the event is over.

Just a thought....
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: Trostle on April 30, 2019, 04:37:16 PM
With the participation levels what they are now compared to 25 years ago  ----  (clip)
Just a thought....

I doubt if the participation numbers are that much different now than "25 years ago".    I do not think there were ever more than 25 that participated in the team trials in the 70's, 80's, 90's.  I could go back and check but the numbers were more in the range of 18 to 22.  Yes, over the last several cycles, the numbers are down, yet more in the range of 12 to 18.  Not that much difference that would dictate a change in the format.

A survey of "participants" would have to be very carefully conducted.  If you ask all those who might think about going to the Nats or even the entire CLPA community if they would like to have the Team Trials at the Nats in some format, the response very likely would be that most would be in favor on the slight chance that one who would not otherwise bother to attend another event at another venue/date might consider that "Hey, I could go to the Nats and be trying out out for the team" knowing full well that there is no or little chance of getting to that level.  A decision to somehow combine the Team Trials and the Nats based on a general survey or even just Nats participants would not be fair to those who dedicate considerable time and resources to participate in the Team Trials working to seriously make the team.

That is why surveys conducted by the FAI Team Selection Committee are held among Team Trials participants regarding location, date (assuming there are alternative bids) and judges rather than the CLPA community at large.

Keith
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: Ken Culbertson on April 30, 2019, 05:47:05 PM
With the participation levels what they are now compared to 25 years ago it would be a good idea to revisit selecting the team with the nats.  I have often thought it would be an option if somehow an AMA score could be converted from 10-40 to 0-10 with .1 increments then the K factor applied to that number.  Anyone who wants a chance for the team would declare at entry they were going for the team. Of course this is not posted until the event is over.

Just a thought....
And a very good thought.

I especially like the part about converting AMA scores to quasi F2B scores thus eliminating having to fly a whole bunch of extra rounds.   I don't see a downside.  There would be lots of complications and nasty side issues like the BOM but they can all be worked out.  Keith makes a very good point, regardless of how the CLPA community feels about this it should only be those willing to make the commitment that should have the vote which ironically leaves me out!

Ken
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: frank williams on April 30, 2019, 07:29:57 PM
My choice of the Columbus Day weekend for the last two years was primarily for the reason talked about here.  Although its somewhat cooler the first of October than the first weekend of September, the conflict with the Dallas contest was a major factor in my choice.  Since I was needing people from the Dallas area to help with the contest, I wanted to avoid a conflict.  Houston and Tulsa are both about the same distance from Dallas, although Tulsa probably has a larger pool of helpers from the Midwest than I do on the coast, you might not have the same concern I did.

One issue that does fit in with the desire to have a combined (serial or simultaneou) Nat TT, is the issue of judges.  Compensation of judges for the Nats or TT are not what they should be.  In my opinion, AMA should compensate travel and lodging for all judges and officials fully.  Combining Nats and TT would get the judges to one place at one time.  Just a thought.

Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: Howard Rush on April 30, 2019, 10:18:44 PM
You could have all the stunt contests in the country in the same place in the same week.  Get 'em over with so we can get on with our lives.
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: john e. holliday on May 01, 2019, 11:51:51 AM
So the TT is held on Labor Day weekend.  Really how many pilots would it involve from other areas that have a stunt meet that week end?   If you want to represent our great country and can qualify the TT's would be a choice,  otherwise you stay home and fly locally. S?P
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: Howard Rush on May 01, 2019, 05:16:05 PM
I live way up in the NW corner of the country, so I travel farther than most folks to the team trials.  The thing I notice most about traveling on holidays is that folks don't work on the road on holidays, so there's not as much bother from construction sites. 

I priced hotels between here and Tulsa for Labor Day weekend and for three weeks later.  Price is about the same for Tulsa and Limon, CO for both weekends, but Twin Falls--one day out from my house-- is costlier on Tuesday either side of Labor Day than later in the month.

What I liked about the Texas team trials was that there were contests one week on either side, making for enjoyable expeditions: https://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/grand-tour-of-stunt-2015/msg422124/#msg422124 , https://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/cinderella-tour-2017/msg501027/#msg501027
Title: Re: Team Trials - 2019
Post by: Dave_Trible on May 02, 2019, 08:06:48 AM
I would not favor flying the Trials and Nats at the same time.  I sure does eliminate one 'MAJOR' on the schedule but also the events are flown enough different with different rules etc., that I don't think we should simply throw an "AMA Winner" at it and call it the team.  Also one might wish to use a different airplane for FAI.  It's hard to adjust to something else that fast even if flown in back-to -back weeks.

Dave